All Gens Throwback Thursdays

[Apollo.]

Its Ventus again for another article but this one is about dpp leads made it with the help of fapkingg !

DPP Leads :

In DPP and olders gen there are no team preview which is basically mean you will have a 'lead match up' so you have to choose the right one for your team and god know isn't an easy task.
I will give you a list with various types of leads like suicide leads,bulky leads with their advantages and their disadvantages.

Suicide leads : Most of them are just used to setup hazard as much they can (for spikes/t-spike users) with sleep move,taunt which prevent other slowers lead to setup their hazard and explosion which remove one big threat or wall in the start of the game.

Aerodactyl : Aero is a really fast pokemon, and having both SR + Taunt make it a reliable Suicide Lead. It's usually Sashed, while it can be Power Herb + Sky Attack sometimes to KO non-sash Machamp.

Azelf :It's one of the most versatile leads, because you can choose from like Focus Sash / Choice Scarf or Band / Dual Screener / Colbur berry. Its high speed allows it to set up SR almost always, while fast Taunt can be useful sometimes. The other moves depend on its set.
Infernape : Ape has access to Fake Out + Stealth Rock + Endeavor in addition to a high speed and a strong attack stat

Mamoswine : Mamo is a decent lead, It gets Stealth Rock and the Endeavor + Ice Shard Combo. In addition to that, It is strong and has an acceptable speed.
Roserade : Roserade is pretty good as a lead, you will almost always put something to sleep, then set your Toxic Spikes in the field. Other than that, Leaf Storm hits hard and HP Fire provides coverage.

Froslass : Froslass has a good niche in being a fast lead that has access to Taunt, Spikes and Destiny Bond. Other moves such as Icy Wind and Shadow ball can be used in the last slot.

Smeargle :The fact that Smeargle learn every move makes it a decent lead. Usually you spore something, then you set up your Entry Hazards. U-Turn in the last slot enables you to scout and pressure your opponent with a switch-in if he taunts.

SR Leads + berry : With their natural bulk/typing they can set their stealth rock and attack the opposing lead regardless weakness thanks to their resist berry.

Jirachi -Jirachi has an insane movepool, It's usually Occa with SR / Psychic / Grass Knot or Tbolt / HP Ground. But some people use a defensive Leftovers version with SR / Body Slam or Twave / Iron Head / Wish and that's absolutely fine.
Metagross - Same typing as jirachi and acces to explosion/SR and good bulk which means its really good lead.
Lum berry/Occa berry or custap berry (leaving eq ada from scarf flygon and boom with the custap)

Empoleon - SR + 3 attack (Grass Knot/H Pump/Aqua Jet/Ice Beam) make him good lead
Focus sash or sometimes chople berry.

Heatran - SR + 3 attack (Fire Blast/Earth Power/Explosion-Hidden power-WoW)
Shuca Heatran lives EQ from adamant Scarf Flygon, Passho beats LO Starmie and Swampert if it carries HP Grass. Focus Sash is used sometimes.
Celebi - SR + 3 attack (leaf storm/hp fire/earth power) with the occa berry for tran/ape.

Azelf - See Suicide Lead Azelf.

Bronzong - Same typing as gross with same moveset (not bullet punch sadly).
Occa berry or leftovers if you are using heatproof over levitate.

Bulky leads : They are just setting their hazard and taunting/phazing other lead,they can back early game thanks to their bulks.


Gliscor - Acces to stealth rock/taunt/u-turn and sand veil and natural bulk allow him to check threat like sd lucario in late game.

Swampert - Good typing,SR and Roar/Protect for explosion users,water/ground typing allow him to beat lead like infernape/zapdos without hp grass which is very helpfull.

Hippowdon - Same as swampert but without the water typing but with recovery other than leftiez and countering well zapdos/dnite mixed with the spedef set.
More used on defensive team (semi stall/stall)

Nidoqueen - SR/T-Spike and Roar made him good lead for defensives teams.

Skarmory - Cool lead since you have acces to taunt/spikes/whirlwind/roar which allow you to beat other defensives lead (not gliscor) but you are sadly beaten by common lead like azelf/zapdos/dnite and he being trapped by magnezone.

Forretress - Don't really like him as lead,honestly you are not going to use a defensive entry hazard setup/remover who is beaten by like all leads in the game right ? also he is trapped by magnezone.

Uxie - Bulky lead,acces to Stealth Rock/T-Wave/U-turn.

Blissey - Acces to stealth rock but not really other usefull move which make him good lead and he is also beaten by machamp/dnite/azelf ect.Its definitively lead who is bad in the metagame.

Scooters : Their roles is to break sash of other leads(suicide leads ect) to gain the momentum at the start of the game by checking checks/counters of the scooter.

Azelf - Choice variant and sometimes colbur berry variant are using u-turn to scoot their counter (ttar)

Jirachi - Used most of time on choice scarf variant.

Zapdos - Allow you to scoot hippo/swampert/ttar if you don't have hp grass for the second one or not toxic.

Infernape - Choice variant are using u-turn to break sash (band is outspeeded by common lead like azelf/scarf flygon who can just ko you t1 be worry)

Crobat - U-turn allow you to break sash of thing like azelf with ease and to gain the momentum(since crobat is a momentum machine)

Gliscor - U-turn allow you to break sash and scoot after you taunted thing like hippo/swampert.

Flygon - Same as ape.

Uxie - U-turn is used to gain the momentum after setting the rock or t-waving a mon and allow you also to scoot your counter (ttar)

Celebi - U-turn is used to gain the momentum after setting the rock

Smeargle - U-turn when you see the opposing lead is faster than you with taunt like aerodactyl/azelf.




And you ? are you choosing the right lead when you build a team or just pick up a random ? if you chose the second option i wish this article helped you to understand how to pick a lead for your team !

 

[antemortem]

Critical Hit Mechanic in RBY

Back in RBY, in the complex times of old, critical hits behaved differently than they do in the current times. As of right now, in Generation Six, critical hits occur at a ratio of 6.25% while dealing 1.5 damage of the original attack. However, in RBY, this was not the case! The amount a Pokemon would land a critical hit, along with how much damage it would do, was based on both the user's Speed and the user's level. Let's use Electrode as an example. Electrode's base Speed is 140, which means it has roughly around 27.3% chance to land a critical hit on every attack that is not affected by critical hit changes (think Slash). The formula for finding this is simple; the Pokemon's base Speed stat divided by 512. The damage increase of the attack will be 1.97x, since it will be Level 100. However, if the Electrode was at say only Level 50, its attacks would only deal 1.90x damage. Formulating this is somewhat different, following a formula of (2x + 5) / (x + 5), where x is the indicator of a Pokemon's level. That's just the basics of the formulas and stuff regarding critical hits, but let's get to the juicy stuff!

Critical hits are so special in this generation because they follow a unique set of properties, including what was already mentioned. In Generation One, and Generation One alone, critical hits will ignore all stat differences, even beneficial changes. This means that a +2 Starmie deals the same amount of damage with a critical hit Surf as a -2 Starmie would while also landing a critical hit on the Surf. While this can be disadvantageous at times, it can also be beneficial for when a stat is dropped. An Attack drop from a Burn will also not be included when modifying the damage for a critical hit. Meaning that a Burned Rhydon deals the same amount of damage as a free of ailment Rhydon will when both score a critical hit. This also includes the opponent's Defense / Special Defense drops or raises. This also creates a situation where critical hits can effectively deal less damage than a non-critical hit move. This is a very unlikely scenario, however, but it is one that should be mentioned as only being applicable in Generation One.

Another thing to note is that critical hits will not make it impossible to miss an attack, as with every other attack, which has a 255/256 chance of missing. Finally, the differentiating of critical hits is very odd in this generation. Moves with a high likelihood of landing a critical hit, namely Slash, are roughly eight times more likely to land a critical hit than every other attack. The formula to identify this is simply the Pokemon's base Speed divided by 64. A hypothetical example is Electrode, which has 140 Speed, using Slash (which it does not learn, this is just for example to illustrate the likelihood of a critical hit mind you!) would land a critical hit every single time it attacks with the move. Very few Pokemon receive access to high critical hit moves, with Persian being one of the most notable, although even that is niche itself. An error was made during the development of the games, causing Focus Energy and Dire Hit to divide the critical hit ratio in fourths; so don't expect that to be a safe bet anytime soon!

What are your thoughts on this wacky mechanic with all these funky formulas? Do you prefer the new mechanics or would you like to see these old mechanics make a return? Let us know in the comment section below!

antemortem Jellicent

using this today

EdwardElric15 i'll try and get back to you soon

 

[Typhlito]

It's time to revive this thread with a beefy article! Just be sure to check it for grammar before using it. antemortem Jellicent

Raging Waters of ADV : Part One​

In this article, we will go over the various offensive water types seen in ADV OU. While water pokemon in ADV are known for being great defensive walls, they are no slouch when it comes to being an offensive type. Water types are able to hit rocks, grounds, and fire types super effectively and is a huge reason why these types are rare in ou. As for what resists water, they include dragons, grass and other waters. Both dragons and grass types can be shaky walls due to many of them having ice beam in their movepool. Not to mention they have rain dance to boost their stabs to sky high levels. There are a variety of water types that are useable in ADV OU that are played offensively each with their pros and cons.

These water types are usually seen or at the very least capable of running offensive set effectively. However, each one is played differently and require different kinds of support to an extent. Each of these pokemon have unique sets that makes them quite useful in the right team and situation.

Starmie

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Starmie has always been a good pokemon, retaining its ou status throughout the ages. Starmie is easily a top contender in ADV. It is most likely the most common of the offensive waters and for good reason. It's excellent 115 base speed allows it to outspeed a huge portion of the metagame. This speed easily makes it the fastest water pokemon outside of rain. As for the rest of the tier, jolteon, dugtrio and aerodactyl are the only pokemon who outspeed it while being tied with raikou. Speed isn't all it possess though. It's 100 base special attack delivers a solid punch while it's incredible movepool leave little safe from its wrath. In fact, it's movepool is the most threatening thing about starmie. It can use moves like hydro pump, surf, ice beam, thunderbolt, psychic, recover, and rapid spin. It can even use support moves such as light screen, reflect and thunder wave if it wants to be more of a team player. It's great ability natural cure is the icing on the cake for this pokemon. It automatically heals it's status problems after a quick switch so taking it down is that much more difficult. It's not all good news for Starmie though. It's psychic typing leaves it vulnerable to pursuit and it's below average bulk keeps it from switching into more powerful attacks unless it's a more bulky variant. Here's a varient of starmie that can be difficult to deal with.

Starmie @ Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Psychic/Rapid Spin/Recover​

This version of Starmie maximises it's speed and power to punch holes in your opponents team. It has all the coverage it could ever need with the moves mentioned. If you like power over accuracy, hydro pump is the move for you. Psychic gives starmie an additional stab move to attack with. The best time to use psychic is if it's used along with rapid spin due to it being able to OHKO all but the bulkiest gengars however four attack Starmie is a great set that can ruin teams that lack a special wall. If you are not afraid of raikou, you may opt to lower it's speed to about 152 ev to reach a speed of 334. That allows you to outspeed standard status gengar by one. The rest of the points may be added to its bulk for longevity. While faster gengars are possible, they are rare due to them not outspeeding anything new with the extra speed. Just something to watch out for.

Gyarados

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This beast of a pokemon is a bit weird for a water pokemon. Unlike starmie, gyarados has a couple issues with its movepool. That is because it's unable to use its stabs properly due to its low special attck and reliance of hidden power to even use its flying stab. However, that does not stop gyarados from being a powerful pokemon in ADV. It's sky high attack stat and decent speed brakes through teams that don't take this pokemon into consideration. While it's movepool is odd for an offensive water pokemon, it posesses a couple rare gems called taunt and Dragon dance. This combination allows gyarados to set up on standard walls that would otherwise force it to switch. While it uses these moves with other moves like earthquake, hidden power rock/flying and even double edge, it can singlehandedly sweep teams in the right situations. However, due to its average speed and weaknesses to common types, it could have some trouble setting up without proper support. Here's a set that lets you use gyarados the way it's supposed to be used.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Taunt/Double Edge
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Flying/Hidden Power Rock​

Gyaraodos may not have many options due to its shallow physical movepool but it has everything it needs with this set. Dragon dance and taunt is the key to its success so use these moves together until you are able to start dealing serious damage. It's final move gives it two choices to pick from. Hidden power flying gives it's a stab move to work with although using it would leave it vulnerable to pokemon like aerodactyl. Hidden power rock is a weaker move but it offers the greatest coverage. However, pokemon like flygon and claydol may give it trouble due to them resisting that combination. Double edge is another option and is the most powerful move of the bunch however it suffers from recoil and still leave you vulnerable to skarmory if you forgo taunt. Other than that though, double edge helps round off its coverage if you don't really need taunt. Depending on what your team is, gyarados's speed may be changed up to be faster or slower. It's current evs allow it to outspeed timid raikou after a dragon dance which is big so going slower may be disadvantageous. When give 212 speed ev, it would be able to outspeed the likes of dugtrio and jolteon. This would come out of gyarados's bulk though so it may be a bit tougher setting up if this route is taken.

Kingdra

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Kingdra is a pokemon that is almost effective in the metagame. While it makes for a great last game sweeper, it needs common pokemon such as snorlax, blissey, celebi and other water types to be taken cared of or weakened to deal substantial damage. That is due to its sub par special attack for a sweeper. Kingdra also lacks a good Dragon stab move to abuse and it's coverage moves are not able to make that big of a dent to these special walls. However this can quickly change after using rain dance. Being a swift swim user, this boosts both it's water stab and speed for up to five turns at a time. The number of pokemon that can take its rain boosted hydro pump quickly shrinks and it's coverage moves help put a decent dent to most pokemon that resists it. Kingdra offers a surprise factor due to it not being a common pokemon. This means that many teams may not consider kingdra specifically during teambuilding. So it's best to keep kingdra hidden for as long as possible to bring out kingdras true potential. Here is a set that can help make that happen.

Kingdra @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Ice Beam
- Toxic/Hidden Power Electric/Dragon Breath​

In this set, kingdras bulk is maximized to compliment it's excellent typing and increasing its chances to use rain dance. Even with an uninvested speed, it's still fast enough to outspeed the whole tier bar ninjask after rain dance reaching speeds of 414. However, youu could opt to run 64 speed ev for outspeeding tyranitar outside of rain. This set is straightforward with the goal being to set up rain and attack for as long as possible. Hydro pump is kingdra's most powerful move and makes up for its sub par special attack but surf is an option if something more consistent is needed. Ice beam hits pokemon like celebi and salamence although bulky variants of celebi can easily stall out rain no matter what kingdra does. It's final move gives it an option of toxic, hidden power electric and Dragon breath. Toxic allows kingdra to better handle it's walls by weakening them with status while hidden power electric let's kingdra do more damage to opposing waters but it's fairly underwhelming. Dragon breath is an option if you want to make use of its dragon stab while potentially paralyzing whatever it hit. However it adds no coverage to its attacks so it's rarely used. Kingdra can be a nightmare to face late game so if you remember to keep it hidden for as long as possible, it can and will sweep weakened teams.

Ludicolo

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Ludicolo always had its ups and downs in ADV but it's seems to be picking up in usage lately. it may seem to be somewhat similar pokemon to kingdra at first glance but that is not really the case. While they are both able to abuse rain dance with swift swim, Ludicolo has more moves in its disposal. It's grass/water typing allows it to lose its weakness to electrics and grass types although it gains a flying and bug weakness which are unfortunately seen on faster physical mons. Luckily thanks to rain dance, it's able to outspeed and defeat many of these pokemon thanks to its boosted speed and coverage. Moves like leech seed are able to help wear down special sponges while keeping itself healthy. It's a very handy move that can make it easy to forget that Ludicolo isn't really that powerful outside of rain. There are still pokemon that can get around Ludicolo like celebi and the rare venusaur but like any pokemon, with proper support, it can really shine. Here's a set that shows off what it can do.

Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Leech Seed/Hidden Power Grass/Thunder Punch​

This set combines leech seed with an offensive set made to sweep. Rain dance is usually the first move Ludicolo would use to activate swift swim off the bat. Due to Ludicolo's sub par special attack, hydro pump is there to deal as much damage as possible in the rain but at the cost occasionally missing. If you want a more consistent move, surf is the way to go. Ice beam is usually the coverage move of choice since it hits many pokemon who would otherwise resist it's water stab. Hidden power grass is an option to make use of its secondary stab if you want to forgo leech seed. That's your best option for dealing immediate damage to opposing waters. Thunder punch is Ludicolo's best move to hit the likes of gyarados although it's important to note that it won't OHKO it at full health. Leech seed allows it to wear down most switch ins if it's other moves are not strong enough to beat it on their own. As for its evs, it's speed allows it to outspeed aerodactyl, jolteon and even adamant heracross after a salac boost while the rest is put into power and bulk. Ludicolo can be an effective pokemon however it's probably good to note that it's one of the weakest offensive water pokemon outside of rain so try not to overestimate it's power and Ludicolo won't fail to impress.

Suicune

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Ever since suicune was introduced into ADV, it has been one of the top pokemon of the tier. While it did not appreciate having its infamous crocune set nerfed due to the recent sleep talk mechanic, it's still quite capable of setting up and sweeping teams if given the opportunity. With an excellent 100/115/115 defensive spread, suicune can easily set up on pokemon lacking a powerful move. It processes one of the best set up moves in the game. This move is calm mind and what makes this move especially good on suicune compared to other calm mind users is the fact that after every boost, it become more resistant to its weaknesses. This also makes its otherwise sub par special attack much more threatening. However while suicune is built like a tank, it's not much faster than one which means that it will have to take hits before dishing out more times than not. Also, it's easily worn down if sandstorm is up due to it negating it's leftovers. Luckily suicune can potentially take down half a team before that happens. In fact, if played right, suicune can decide the game on the first turn. Here's a set that shows off suicune offensive prowess.

Suicune @ Leftovers
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Roar/Substitute/Hidden Power Electric​

This set allows suicune to get as many calm minds as it needs under its belt before sweeping. Suicune should set up with calm mind as soon as possible to increase its offensive and defensive stats making it much tougher to deal with. Hydro pump is a powerful but inaccurate stab attack suicune has in its disposal but if you want consistency, there is surf. Surf is usually the safer option for suicune due to its higher PP and perfect accuracy but hydro pump require fewer calm mind boosts to deal significant damage to even the bulkiest of pokemon. Ice beam is the go to coverage move for suicune in order to hit pokemon that resist it's water stab. As for its final move, there are a few moves in its disposal. Roar is useful for preventing opposing phazers from forcing it out with their own phazing moves while giving suicune more set up opportunities. Substitute allows suicune to make fat 101 hp subs to give it more time to set up and in turn make its subs even harder to break. However, suicune will have max out it's hp by giving it 252 Ev to make it possible. It could be worth it though since it's a great way to stop status inducers and pokemon planning to use explosion. Finally there's hidden power electric which rounds off suicune's coverage and allows it to hit almost anything for neutral damage. However suicune would have a somewhat harder time setting up without support since it can be worn down fairly easily. Suicune is an excellent pokemon but one should be aware of its weaknesses since its by no means invincible.

Swampert

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Swampert is usually seen as a defensive wall but it's quite capable of going full out offensive. However it's offensive set is by no means conventional and has a surprise factor. That being said, it's known to be an incredibly fun set if used correctly and is capable of taking down several pokemon singlehandedly. This set is known as the endeavor set. Endeavor is a move that brings the opposing pokemon's hp down to the same hp as the user. Normally it's not that great of a move but when combined with sandstorm and swampert's ground typing, it can be devastating, especially when combined with its ability torrent, salac berry and a substitute. Here's the set it uses.

Swampert @ Salac Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Endeavor
- Substitute
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Ice Beam​

As previously mentioned, this set revolves around Swampert catching your opponent off guard with a combination of substitute, endeavor, and sandstorm. That means that tyranitar as a partner is a must to pull this off. Substitute will bring swampert's hp down to one after four uses if done from full health. This puts it in range to activate salac berry and boost its speed to high levels. This also activate torrent to boost the power of its water stab attacks. Ice beam is there for coverage in case it is needed. This set does need plenty of support though. Rapid spin support is a must for this set to work and it can be stalled out by pokemon who can recover their hp. Also that even after a salac boost, it's speed only reaches 360 leaving it outsped by the likes of Starmie and friends. If you are able to give it the proper support it needs, it can do wonders.

So which one of these offensive waters are your favorite? Did you use different sets that weren't mentioned here?

 

[antemortem]

Hey, Typhlito! I'd love to use all of these for a "Week of Throwbacks: ADV" sort of deal where I post one of the 'mons you covered each day of a given week, mainly because it's too much content altogether to put in one post. Either that or I could post one each Thursday for six weeks or so, I'm still mulling it over in my head. I really need more throwback content so carrying on with weekly posts is technically preferred, but the former is still an idea worth chewing on.

 

[Typhlito]

The first idea sounds great although there is still another part to this water pokemon article (defensive side) that I have to type. So that would push it over a week. The other idea might spread the information a bit thin but if you think it's better that way in the long run, I'm fine with that too.

 

[antemortem]

Do you think the defensive coverage would also manage to span five-six days?

 

[Typhlito]

Easily. If you want, you could run a throwback week every month to spread this out for 2 months. I could probably do something like this for the other types if we want it to keep going long term.

 

[antemortem]

Yeah, that'd be really great actually!

 

[Typhlito]

Sounds like a plan! I'm assuming throwback Thursdays would still be a thing even with throwback week right? In case someone posts something that's not adv related lol.

 

[antemortem]

Sounds like a plan! I'm assuming throwback Thursdays would still be a thing even with throwback week right? In case someone posts something that's not adv related lol.

No, not during the actual week itself. It'll just be another day of throwback.

 

[Typhlito]

Here's part 2 for the adv water type article. There's more pokemon than the first article so maybe you can do 1-2 mons a day. antemortem

Fortifying Waters of ADV : Part 2​

Hey there! Typhlito here with the second part of "waters of ADV" article. Last time we talked about the various offense water types in the tier. This time we will go over the more defensive water pokemon seen in ADV OU. Water pokemon are better known for being defensive behemoths than they are for their offensive prowess and for good reason. Water pokemon only possess two weaknesses while resisting three. It so happens that both it's weaknesses (grass and electric) are both considered special types which means that water pokemon do not have a weakness on their physical side. This makes them excellent physical walls. They also resist steel types which while not seen on many pokemon, is really strong on the pokemon that uses it such as metagross's meteor mash. They are no slouch when it comes to taking special hits as well due to their all-around bulk. As for their resists, water types are able to resist fire, ice and water attacks. Water and ice are both common attack types so being able to resist them at the same time is great. Here are a variety of water pokemon that can make for a good defensive pokemon which each having their pros and cons.

These water types are usually seen or at the very least capable of running a defensive set effectively. However, each one is played differently and require different kinds of support to an extent. Each of these pokemon have unique sets that can make them quite useful in the right team and situation.

Cloyster

First up on our list is Cloyster, the bivalve pokemon. Cloyster has a role that is unique for a water pokemon. It has the highest defensive stat for a water pokemon allowing it to make up for its shakey water/ice typing with its ability to tank even super effective attacks to an extent. However what makes Cloyster special is how it contains both spikes and rapid spin in its movepool. It is able to run both moves on the same set however it usually has more success sticking with one or the other due to move constrictions and its ice typing holding it back. The biggest benefit though with using Cloyster as a spiker and/or spinner over the likes of forretress is that it's not as prone to magneton due to it not being affected by magnet pull which is pretty big. So here's a set Cloyster can use that can help it be used to its greatest potential.

Cloyster @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 88 SpA / 148 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Spikes
- Ice Beam/Icy Wind/Rapid Spin/Toxic
- Surf
- Explosion/Rest​

So this set gives you the option to either run spikes and/or rapid spin on the same set. Cloyster should always have spikes on its set as it is ultimately outclassed by claydol and forretress as a spinner. If you opt to use just spikes, Cloyster will be able to potentially make use of its ice stab attacks. Ice beam delivers solid damage to most pokemon surf doesn't although the weaker icy wind is able to lower the opponent's pokemon's speed allowing Cloyster or another one of your pokemon to outspeed it. Toxic is also an option if you want Cloyster to spread status. Surf let's Cloyster use its water stab in order to hit pokemon like metagross and tyranitar harder than most of Cloyster's other moves. As for its final slot, there is a choice between explosion and rest. Explosion allows it to threaten pokemon it cannot defeat otherwise if Cloyster is no longer needed while rest provides longevity and works nicely with its ability shell armor. Cloyster is able to do what it does pretty well however it's ice typing makes it half the pokemon it would have been without it.

Vaporeon

Vaporeon could probably be known as the team player of the bulky waters. It's defensive bulk is only comparable to milotic but it's movepool helps it stand out against the crowd. It possesses several gems such as haze, wish and roar and is able to use all three with good success. It is important to note though that in ADV, wish will not heal the receiver by half of Vaporeon's health. Instead, wish will always recover 50% of the reviewer's health no matter who it is. Vaporeon is also one of the only pokemon that can hard wall a calm mind suicune lacking hidden power electric due to its ability water absorb and ice resist. However Vaporeon is prone to taunt so care should be taken not to use it as your main answer to Gyarados and friends. Here's a set that Vaporeon can use with good success.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Bold Nature
- Surf
- Wish
- Protect/Roar
- Toxic/Ice Beam/Haze​

Vaporeon will want to make use of its water stab by having surf as its first move. Same goes for wish as it allows it to keep itself and its teammates healthy. As for its third move, protect is preferred for more consistent wish heals however roar is a great move to prevent pokemon from setting up and sweeping. It's fourth move gives it a few options to mess with. It could use toxic to spread status or make use of ice beam to hit pokemon surf can't. Haze is also an option on non-roar sets to remove all stat boosts (or drops) currently in play. Vaporeon may be a team player, relying on its teammates to do the heavy lifting while providing support from the side lines however not many pokemon can do making it it a formidable pokemon to deal with.

Starmie

Unlike Starmie's offensive set, this Starmie focuses more on longevity to keep spikes off the field for as long as possible. It's added bulk helps keep pursuit users from outright killing it if it tries to switch out while still outspeeding a large portion of the metagame. It's ability natural cure is perfect for defensive Starmie as it prevents status from sticking on it for too long. Starmie is the best all-around spinner in ADV OU but it has its own share of weaknesses. It's reduced power makes it more difficult to threaten pokemon who are not weak to its attacks. It's natural bulk is also not the greatest with its 60/85/85 defensive spread, making it very reliant on recover to keep itself healthy after a strong hit or two. It also has some difficulty fitting everything it wants to do in just four moves since it has many useful moves at its disposal. However Starmie's speed makes up for most of its downfalls and is very good at what it does. Here is a set that can prove it.

Starmie @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Surf
- Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Psychic/Thunder Wave/Toxic/Reflect/Light Screen​

So as you can see, Starmie has many moves it can use depending on what your team needs. However, it's first three moves are usually mandatory for defensive Starmie. Rapid spin let's it remove spikes from the field and is the main reason to use this set in the first place while recover let's it stay healthy throughout the match. This is especially useful since Starmie will be hurt by the spikes it's trying to remove. Surf is Starmie's move of choice for dealing damage to your opponent since it hits many types for neutral damage. Not to mention it's Starmie's best move to hit pursuits like tyranitar, houndoom and metagross. It's final slot can be a bit tricky to fit the last move since there are so many options it can pull off. Thunder bolt and ice beam helps hit pokemon surf can't stop such as salamence, celebi, and gyarados while psychic let's it handle gengar much easier. Starmie could also use status with either thunder wave or toxic to discourage pokemon from freely switching in. Finally, Starmie can run reflect or light screen to quickly boost the walling capabilities of Starmie and the rest of your team or to simply make pursuit much less threatening. Starmie has a ton going for it. The right choice for its final move can potentially make the difference between victory and defeat so choose carefully!

Suicune

Suicune can easily be considered the most offensive of the defensive waters due to its access to calm mind however with the implementation of the sleep talk mechanic, many players began using more offensive variants of suicune. Suicune doesn't seem to really care about the new change though. Suicune is more than bulky enough to run its defensive sets although it now needs a bit more support to do so. While it made its infamous crocune set harder to use, it is still viable in the current metagame. Suicune can easily take attacks from heavy hitters like band salamence and metagross (although it should still watch out for band explosion as its a OHKO) and force them to switch out. Suicune as a defensive wall does have limitations though. Suicune is vulnerable to being worn down due to its only form of recovery being rest. It's also hurt by sandstorm making its leftovers useless. It also has some difficulty fitting in everything it wants to do in just four slots. Suicune is still a very threatening pokemon that can and will set up if given the chance. Here's the set that has defeated countless teams with its bulk and power.

Suicune @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Rest
- Roar/Ice Beam/Sleep Talk​

This set maximises suicune's bulk to give itself more opportunities to set up calm mind while the opponent helplessly tries to switch out their pokemon. Suicune is usually able to start setting up calm mind as soon as it appears and is the backbone to this set. Surf is its move of choice as it does consistent damage to many pokemon without having to deal with hydro pump's shaky accuracy and low power. Rest is Suicune's third move since it lets it recover it's hp and remove status ailments. There are a few options Suicune can take for its fourth move. It could run roar to prevent opposing calm mind users from setting up along side it although you may want to run more speed if you want to prevent opposing roar suicunes from forcing you out. Ice beam is also an option as it adds some much needed coverage for hitting celebi and salamence. Sleep talk is also an option to prevent suicune from being a sitting duck while asleep. The nerf may have weakened suicune but it's more than capable of sweeping any team foolish enough to underestimate it's power.

Swampert

Here we have Swampert, an excellent and very common pokemon on ADV teams and for good reason. While not as bulky as suicune, it sports a much better typing that gives it a crucial resistance to rock type moves like rock slide. This water/ground typing also gives it just one quad weakness to grass. However Swampert is bulky enough to survive most non stab grass attacks if it has to. This typing also provides Swampert with an immunity to electricity and capable of passive healing in the sand. Not to mention Swampert also possesses moves like roar, toxic, and hydro pump to make it hard to deal with. Swampert does have some weak points though. Even with its passive recovery, it lacks instant recovery so it can get worn down quickly if not careful. It can also have a difficult time phasing out calm mind users due to many of them possessing a grass attack. Swampert's pros easily outshine its cons though and should always be considered during teambuilding. Here's a set if you decide to use Swampert.

Swampert @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Toxic/Hydro Pump
- Protect/Roar​

This Swampert is pretty much standard with a couple extra options but it's standard for a reason. Earthquake is a great stab attack that makes use of Swampert's good natural power while ice beam hits whatever earthquake doesn't. It's third move is an option of either toxic and hydro pump. Toxic allows Swampert to spread status with ease since it can easily forces switches while hydro pump does solid damage to like likes of skarmory and is its best option for tyranitar. Hydro pump's power is also boosted once it's ability, torrent is activated once it's hp is low enough. That can make it difficult to switch into it if you don't resist it. It's final move is a choice between protect and roar. Protect allows Swampert to scout out your opponent's moves in case they are using something Swampert doesn't want to get hit with while giving leftovers an extra turn to heal damage. Roar however let's you phase out your opponent's pokemon. This could be especially useful if you have spikes out on your opponent's side of the field. Swampert is an excellent pokemon that will rarely disappoint. Just keep it away from toxic and grass moves and it will do just fine.

Ludicolo

Like its more offensive sets, defensive Ludicolo has always seen its ups and downs as the metagame changes. Currently though the metagame seems to be favoring Ludicolo once again. This can be quite an annoying pokemon to deal with if it manages to get behind its substitute. It's grass/water typing complements each other very well. It removes all of its special weaknesses at the cost of a weakness to flying, poison and bug. While this doesn't make Ludicolo the greatest defensive wall, Ludicolo is usually dancing happily behind its sub while it tries to stall out your opponent with a combination of leech seed and toxic. It does struggle a bit against pokemon with taunt since it prevents it from using most of its attacks. It's speed is also only average so it could have trouble setting up a substitute in the first place. Ludicolo is still a pokemon that will dance on your pokemon's graves if you let it. Here's a set that does just that.

Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 36 SpA / 220 SpD
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Toxic
- Surf/Fire Punch/Seismic Toss/Synthesis/Rain Dance​

This set allows Ludicolo to stall most pokemon behind the safety of its substitute so having substitute is a must. Leech seed allows Ludicolo to recover off any damage done by its own substitute along with leftovers. When combined with toxic, your opponent's hp will plummet rapidly in a matter of turns making it difficult to try setting up on Ludicolo's face. As for its final move, there are a few options to choose from. Surf allows Ludicolo to deal decent chip damage to many pokemon while fire punch while fairly weak, is aimed at pokemon that is not affected by its leech seed + toxic combo. Seismic toss on the other hand delivers consistent damage to the opponent and is its best move to get past pokemon like sub calm mind Raikou. Synthesis allows Ludicolo to reliably heal itself if leech seed is not enough. It's low PP and reduced effectiveness under sand is an issue though. Finally, rain dance allows you to not only clear sandstorm from field but increase its healing capabilities by activating its ability, rain dish. When combined with leftovers, Ludicolo will recover 1/8 of its hp under rain every turn which adds up quickly. While it's able to stall many pokemon, there are several common pokemon that is not really bothered by it such as celebi. As long as you provide the support it needs, Ludicolo will work great as a special sponge.

Milotic

Milotic is another bulky water that is commonly seen. That's because it has several moves that sets it apart from most of the other bulky waters. These moves are recover and hypnosis which makes it both difficult to take down as well as risky to switch into. Milotic makes for a very good mixed tank due to its high special defense and marvel scale which boosts its defense when inflicted with status. It's reliable recovery makes it difficult to take down quickly. Milotic does have a few issues though. Once it puts a pokemon to sleep, it becomes much less threatening due to milotic being a fairly weak attacker. It's also vulnerable to toxic as while it does activate marvel scale, it makes it more difficult to stay healthy. Finally, while milotic is capable of tanking physical attacks, it defensive bulk is not as impressive compared to the other bulky waters. Milotic is a very resilient pokemon though because of how hard it is to kill. Here is a set that shows off what it can do.

Milotic @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Surf
- Recover
- Ice Beam
- Hypnosis/Toxic/Mirror Coat​

Since milotic's defense is not that high, it tries to maximize it in order to take as much as possible on the physical side. Milotic uses surf as its main form of attack to deal decent damage to a majority of the metagame while ice beam hits anything surf doesn't. Recover allows it to instantly recover 50% of its hp on one turn and is what makes milotic so good. As for its fourth move, hypnosis tends to be the move of choice just because it renders most pokemon useless for a few turns. Toxic is an option though if you want to spread status to more than one pokemon. Finally, mirror coat is a cool option that lets it hit special attackers twice as hard. This is especially useful since not even Raikou and jolteon can OHKO it with thunderbolt without a boost. Mirror coat has a surprise factor so it's not difficult to catch players off guard with it. While milotic doesn't pack much of a punch, if you need a pokemon that can stick around in the long run, milotic might just be the pokemon for you.

So which of these pokemon do you usually use on your teams? Do you use these sets or are you having luck with a totally different set?

 

[antemortem]

Sorry, I forgot about this Typhlito.

So, I don't want to break the backs of the artists to get together two pieces of art for each of these mons, since it seems they have both defensive and an offensive potential in ADV. Do you think you might be able to put them together and truncate the information a bit? That way I can run one week with Ludicolo, Kingdra, Swampert, Suicune, and Starmie (offensive and defensive sets together each day), and then save Cloyster and Vaporeon for unrelated future Throwback Thursdays.

 

[Typhlito]

Sorry, I forgot about this Typhlito.

So, I don't want to break the backs of the artists to get together two pieces of art for each of these mons, since it seems they have both defensive and an offensive potential in ADV. Do you think you might be able to put them together and truncate the information a bit? That way I can run one week with Ludicolo, Kingdra, Swampert, Suicune, and Starmie (offensive and defensive sets together each day), and then save Cloyster and Vaporeon for unrelated future Throwback Thursdays.

I could do that if you rather it be that way. Have you considered just using the same image if the pokemon is the same though?

 

[antemortem]

I could do that if you rather it be that way. Have you considered just using the same image if the pokemon is the same though?

Not preferable but I can.

 

[Typhlito]

Not preferable but I can.

I think it's a decent compromise since that means we could "milk" throwback week for longer and I don't have to limit the information for every set but like I said, I'm fine either way. Just let me know what the plan is when you get the chance.

 

[Golden Sun]

tbt to when dpp was good

 

[antemortem]

I think it's a decent compromise since that means we could "milk" throwback week for longer and I don't have to limit the information for every set but like I said, I'm fine either way. Just let me know what the plan is when you get the chance.

I slept on it and I decided I'll just reuse the images. Still need to get ones for Starmie, Kingdra, and Gyarados, then the first week can start.

 

[antemortem]

D1 Starmie https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/ph...440895.219134492389/10154262952382390/?type=3

 

[antemortem]

D2 Kingdra https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/ph...440895.219134492389/10154264950757390/?type=3

 

[antemortem]

D3 Gyarados https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/ph...440895.219134492389/10154267627102390/?type=3

D4 Ludicolo https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/ph...440895.219134492389/10154269642412390/?type=3

 

[antemortem]

D5 Suicune https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/ph...440895.219134492389/10154272044977390/?type=3

Swampert is the last one and will be up in four hours.

 

[antemortem]

New Throwback Week!

D1 Suicune https://www.facebook.com/SmogonU/ph...440895.219134492389/10154414882427390/?type=3