OU Thundurus

[Ash Borer]

I'm a bit confused as to Focus Blast is preferred over Superpower on the primary set.

The three main targets as far as I can tell are Blissey/Chansey, Tyranitar, and Excadrill. Slamming the tran is also nice. With a 4 atk / 252 spa spread; Superpower does more damage to Blissey/Chansey, with expert belt or life orb OHKOs excadrill regardless, and is better against Tyranitar. AS well it does more damage to sdef heatran.

Most importantly, Focus Blast misses all the damn time so even in situations where it might be better, it's a crap move. Focus Blast's most relevant target is Ferrothorn, but in my eyes actually hitting these targets is more important than Ferrothorn, who still gets chunked by superpower for about 45%.

 

[Ziaf999]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I notice you use 4 HP EVs in multiple sets that run Life Orb. Thunderus-I has 299 HP with 0 EVs, and 300 HP with 4 EVs, so I would assume it's better to run 0 HP EVs if you run Life Orb on him. Maybe move those 4 HP EVs to Defense, Sp. Defense, or Attack?

 

[Swamp Link]

Knock Off and Psychic are both good OO moves that Thundurus probably just doesn't have room for. Knock Off wrecks Chansey and Latias, while Psychic can be used to break through Venusaur.

 

[aVocado]

Leftover EV being put in HP makes it take 25% from Stealth Rock rather than 24%. It should go to def/SpD or atk if it's mixed, no?

edit: ninja'd by days by Ziaf999

 

[alexwolf]

The following set needs to be added or replace the existing mixed attacker set:

Mixed Attacker
########
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Taunt
ability: Prankster
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

This set OHKOes all the common spinners and Defog users (sometimes with the help of SR), and can even Taunt the few Defog users that it can't OHKO (Zapdos, Mega Scizor, Mew). Knock Off OHKOes Lati@s (you need SR for Latias) and Superpower OHKOes any Excadrill variant, while Thunderbolt always OHKOes Mandibuzz and Skarmory after SR. Even without SpA EVs, both Thunderbolt and HP Ice OHKO their usual targets with SR up, so the lack of SpA investment isn't felt that much. Obviously, this set should be played at HO teams, which want to keep their hazards up, so hazard leads are its best partners.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

The following set needs to be added or replace the existing mixed attacker set:

Mixed Attacker
########
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Taunt
ability: Prankster
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

This set OHKOes all the common spinners and Defog users (sometimes with the help of SR), and can even Taunt the few Defog users that it can't OHKO (Zapdos, Mega Scizor, Mew). Knock Off OHKOes Lati@s (you need SR for Latias) and Superpower OHKOes any Excadrill variant, while Thunderbolt always OHKOes Mandibuzz and Skarmory after SR. Even without SpA EVs, both Thunderbolt and HP Ice OHKO their usual targets with SR up, so the lack of SpA investment isn't felt that much. Obviously, this set should be played at HO teams, which want to keep their hazards up, so hazard leads are its best partners.

To sound trivial, if you are not running Taunt, Defiant will at least boost Superpower and Knock Off in a few niche instances.

Thunder Wave should also be slashed. It is always nifty, but it does not necessarily seem essential.

Thunderbolt and Superpower define the set as it allows it to power through its usual checks. For the last two slots, any permutation of Knock Off, Taunt, HP Ice, and Thunder Wave seems acceptable.

 

[alexwolf]

Knock Off is a must and one of the reasons to go physical, as Lati@s are the premiere Defog users on offensive teams and usually stay in against Thundurus, as they can take a hit from the special set and get rid of hazards or OHKO. You are correct that Defiant should be slashed before Prankster though, and that T-Wave should be slashed on the last slot as well.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Hey alexwolf

Thanks for commenting on this, and I will definitely implement it sometime because it sounds really good. However, there are so many random suggestions that were made here that I have to organize everything via IRC chat. I would definitely appreciate it if we could settle and organize things with Thundurus this week/end. :)

 

[alexwolf]

The only thing that needs to be settled is which moves will get slashed on the last slot and in what order. Also, it could be worth putting just enough Atk EVs in Atk to OHKO Latias after SR, and put the rest to SpA, in order to power up your STAB a little bit, as well as HP Ice if it ends up being the first slash. If we go that route, 188 Atk / 68 SpA / 252 Spe with Naive is the spread to use. With that spread, it's also worth noting that after you Knock Off Hippowdon's item, you can 2HKO it (max HP variants) later with HP Ice and SR up 86.7% of the time.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

I was sort of speaking in relation to all the other random sets/suggestions made here besides the Mixed Attacker (like the Salac Berry), but yeah, I'll try to slay this beast sometime.

 

[Jukain]

I disagree with alexwolf's proposed set. I would like to see:

Mixed
########
name: Mixed
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Hidden Power Ice
move 4: U-turn / Superpower
item: Expert Belt / Life Orb
ability: Defiant
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Naive

With this set, you have TBolt, Knock Off, and HP Ice as mandatory, because they are. If you wanna get fucked by Gliscor and Landorus-T, be my guest, but I think HP Ice is nigh mandatory, especially on this set. I simply feel so disadvantaged without it that I would never consider running Mix Thund-I without it. The last slot has U-turn first, and that's because U-turn is simply the best move available to an offensive Pokemon, allowing Thundurus to give its teammates switch-in opportunities and secure momentum. This is especially significant on the HO teams this Thundurus is most common on. Superpower is slashed because, depending on the team, taking out Tyranitar can be pretty significant. It's also nice for Excadrill, but I think U-turn is generally better, especially as U-turn does pretty significant damage to Tyranitar that easily wears it down. Also, on Taunt: quite frankly, I don't think saccing coverage is worth on a mixed set that wants all it can get. I understand that Taunt 'could' be beneficial, especially against Deoxys-S leads, but it isn't worth it on, again, a Pokemon that needs its coverage.

Oh, and the items: Expert Belt is definitely the best item for Mix Thund-I imo. I was running Life Orb at first, figuring I would want it more than anything, but with Expert Belt, you gain so much more longevity, as it's harder to pick Thundurus off with priority, and stuff like going for a U-turn or getting a free Knock Off on a predicted switch isn't punished.

I also think Mixed should be moved up to the second set. It's just such a good set, and deserves the second spot over NP.

---

Speaking of Thundurus sets, I liked physical Thundurus when I tried it. It's kind of hard to describe plus points for it, but in short, it lets you take advantage of Defiant to the fullest extent, and Thundurus's physical movepool is good. The set I've been running is Wild Charge / U-turn / Knock Off / Superpower (or HP Ice). It's just nice to have the physical power, especially with Defiant on inevitable Defogs. Just a topic for discussion.

 

[alexwolf]

Then we are talking about different sets Jukain. The set i mentioned is the best to prevent hazards from getting removed, as well as being the best wallbreaker. With your set, you can't OHKO Lati@s, OHKO bulky Excadrill, and 2HKO Chansey. I am fine with HP Ice being slashed alone on the last slot, and the set being an all out attacker without any slashed move (Thunderbolt / Knock Off / Superpower / Hidden Power Ice), but enough Atk EVs to OHKO Latias after SR is a must, as is Life Orb, otherwise you miss on many important OHKO/2HKOes.

 

[BurningMan]

I don't think HP Ice is a must on the set Alex proposed since it mainly aims to keep your hazards up and prevent the opponent to set his own. Sure it sucks not being able to revenge Gliscor/Lando/Garchomp, but its not difficult to do this with other Pokemon and untill your opponent has scouted Thundurus set they are likely going to switch out any way and once they know your complete set you likely already have achieved your goal.
Honestly i would actually like Taunt to be the first slash since it can be very crucial to prevent Defog/SR/disable Deo-S. This set is much more of a utility set that aims to take out specific targets/prevent them from doing their job than a sweeper that needs the coverage to sweep as much of the meta game as possible. I also really like Alex proposed EV spread KOing Latias after SR is all you need for Knock Off if you don't lose out KOs on things like Excadrill/Chansey/Ferrothorn etc.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Here's a calc to discourage whole physical investment:

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 299-354 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Concidentally...

140 works for Bulky Excadrill

140 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 432-510 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 380-452 (107.3 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You also lose the KO on Lando-T and Garchomp:

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 359-426 (93.9 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 343-406 (95.8 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
----

I wonder what spread would be optimal against Charizard Y + with Ground type teammate against Thundurus-I gambit would work

 

[alexwolf]

SR will be up most of the time, as this Thundurus is supposed to protect hazards, and with SR all those OHKOes are guaranteed. Still even with only 68% SpA EVs, you have this:

- 68 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 289-343 (96.9 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

which is great, considering that you are supposed to set up SR before sending Thundurus out anyway. Same goes with the Ground-types that you mentioned (OHKOed after SR), though i doubt any of them would want to stay in.

To be clear, the main purpose of the set i posted is this of a hard hitter that makes sure that your hazards stay up and is not easy at all to wall. Keeping hazards up comes first, and then the hard to wall part. Considering how much trouble HO teams go through to keep their hazards up, Thundurus is an excellent Pokemon for such teams.

 

[BurningMan]

Here's a calc to discourage whole physical investment:

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 299-354 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Concidentally...

140 works for Bulky Excadrill

140 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 432-510 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 380-452 (107.3 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You also lose the KO on Lando-T and Garchomp:

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 359-426 (93.9 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

112 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 343-406 (95.8 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
----

I wonder what spread would be optimal against Charizard Y + with Ground type teammate against Thundurus-I gambit would work

Are these calcs with SR? Since the whole point os this set is to prevent SR from being removed not doing calcs with them seems kinda stupid. Also you really don't want to miss the KO on Lati@s which is one of your primary targets since Thundurus is usually one of the Pokemon they can safely use defog on and the whole Point of this set is to prevent this from happening.

Edit: Ninja'd ..

Edit2: I just ran some calcs on Wildcharge over Thunderbolt and it sucks so hard that if this ever gets a set it should be explictly stated to not use it lol. The only thing you get is a clean KO on Tenta after Rocks and more damage on CharY while missing out on a lot of important KOs.

 

[Jukain]

Okay. From the QC meeting on Sunday, we have a list of changes that need to be made in this analysis.

Set 1

First of all, Leftovers is the standard, and best, item on this set. It grants Thundurus a great deal of longevity that allows it to persevere throughout the battle MUCH more easily. Life Orb is indeed good for the extra power, so it should absolutely be slashed, but Leftovers / Life Orb, no doubt.

Also, Thunderbolt and HP Ice are staple attacks. Nothing should be slashed with them. The set should be Thunder Wave | Thunderbolt | Hidden Power Ice | Focus Blast / U-turn. Hidden Power Flying should be mentioned in Set Details for use over HP Ice, in addition to Substitute and Taunt for the last slot.

Set 2

First, unslash Lum. It doesn't really have much application (unless you're into blocking Spores or something idk ?_?) on Thundurus, a Pokemon that isn't physical or particularly hurt by Toxic. Leftovers should be slashed in its place, granting Thundurus, again, a great deal more longevity. This is particularly significant because NP has to actually get up boosts, and Lefties makes it way harder to wear down. Also, Taunt just doesn't seem like that great of an option, which we all agreed on. Slash Substitute instead. It protects Thundurus from priority and Scarfer RKs which is very useful, and overall makes it more difficult to deal with. Finally, HP Flying should be slashed with HP Ice. It is a very good option to take out Mega Venusaur, a top-tier defensive threat. The set should be Nasty Plot | Thunderbolt | Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Flying | Focus Blast / Substitute, Life Orb / Leftovers.

Set 3

This set is kinda weird the way it is right now. What it should look like is this:

Mixed
########
name: Mixed
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / U-turn / Taunt
ability: Defiant
item: Life Orb
evs: 72 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Naive

Thunderbolt is mandatory. Knock Off is mandatory for the Latis, Aegislash, and crippling defensive answers to Thundurus in general. Superpower is mandatory for Tyranitar, Chansey, and Heatran. The last slot is a toss-up of what you want. HP Ice is generally best because it destroys Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Garchomp. U-turn is also good because, well, it's U-turn (momentum and such). Finally, Taunt prevents Pokemon like Chansey, non-Rock Slide (aka most) Hippowdon, and Gliscor from doing much of anything to Thundurus while it just does whatever it wants and proceeds to switch out.

The Attack EVs let Thundurus KO Latios with Knock Off after SR.

Set 4

Remove this set. With Sub and Taunt mentioned in the first set, its role is entirely encompassed by the other sets. Thus, there is no reason to have this set.

Add this set:

Bulk Up
########
name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Fly
move 3: Wild Charge
move 4: Superpower
ability: Defiant
item: Power Herb / Leftovers
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

Bulk Up Thundurus has been a recent innovation as an excellent Mega Venusaur lure. Power Herb Fly means Mega Venu will be totally surprised; Leftovers is an option because Fly gives you recovery in the air, and not much wants to switch into a boosted Fly that wouldn't beat Thundurus anyways. Wild Charge is the other obligatory STAB, and Superpower provides coverage on annoying things like Tyranitar and Heatran that would otherwise seriously hinder Thundurus. There's unanimous agreement that this set should be included, btw.

Potentially add this set:
Defiant
########
name: Defiant
move 1: Wild Charge
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Superpower
move 4: U-turn / Fly
ability: Defiant
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

I was talking to dragonuser on IRC, and realized I definitely wasn't the only one having positive experiences with all-out physical Thundurus. This is a Pokemon specifically meant for Deoxys hyper offense teams, as it can take massive advantage of Defog with Defiant. Thundurus's impressive base 115 Attack stat makes its physical attacks hit hard; with a Defiant boost, it becomes quite the hard hitter offensively. It can throw around Knock Offs, which murder the Latis (even OHKOing Latias thanks to the physical bias of this set) and generally greatly cripple defensive switch-ins to Thundurus. Wild Charge is STAB, Superpower is coverage...and then there's the last slot. U-turn is really good because momentum move and all that jazz, but Fly is also nice because of Mega Venusaur, which Thundurus attracts like a dog does fleas. This set has been proven in SPL and by various users on the ladder as a nice option for Thundurus to run.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Psychic and Hidden Power Flying need mentions in the analysis. Both destroy Venusaur (one of the only reliable counters to the standard movesets) and are seeing more use in higher play (I've seen on the ladder, some posters in OU also mentioned those attacks getting more tournament use but I don't have first had experience there).

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, Psychic should get a mention in the 'Moves' sections of the T-Wave, NP, and mixed sets. While HP Flying is in general the best option, Psychic is good if you want to nail Mega Venusaur and keep Hidden Power Ice.

 

[Ash Borer]

find "substitute" = null;
!

Substitute should get a mention somewhere on the Thunder Wave set. You can Twave and just spam Sub over and over again to just fish for the paralysis. Honestly Substitute is a really cool option on Thundurus because you dodge stuff like Life Orb priority or scout for a move a Choice Scarf has locked itself into if it wants to revenge Nasty Plot Thundurus. After you scout, you can send out an appropriate response.

This. I did the same thing and found no mention of substitute! Substitute also has the utility of messing with Draco Meteor users if they predict incorrectly. It's just a good move. LEftovers need a slash on any set with substitute for obvious reasons. Knock off needs a slash on mixed attacker, knock off is the best move at breaking up stall, and ruins chansey, a centerpiece of stall's walling of thundy. Expert belt needs a mention on T-wave + 3 attacks because it still 1 shots chomper / lando / excadrill with hp ice and superpower

Imo the sets should be this:

Prankster Attacker (like the first set but with taunt as an option over t-wave)
- Attacking moves mentioned : Thunderbolt / hp ice / superpower / knock off
- Utiltiy movest mentioned: Taunt / Thunder wave
- Items: Life Orb / Expert Belt

Defiant Attacker (the mixed set jukain has basically)
- Attacking moves mentioned: Thunderbolt / HP ice / superpower / knock off / Wild Charge
- Items: Life Orb / Expert Belt

Nasty Plot
- Attacking Moves Mentioned: Thunderbolt / Hp Ice / Focus Blast
- utility Moves mentioned: Nasty Plot / Substitute
- Items mentioned: Life Orb / Leftovers / Salac Berry

Grass Knot, Psychic, Hp Flying are great moves then can get fit in OO or "moves" on specific sets but they arent nearly as important as the others. Volt Switch and U-turn, same deal.

I dont know shit about these crazy Bulk up sets, so I wont deride them, and I trust jukain's wisdom.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Okay, I finally made changes to the analysis with the suggestions posted in the last few posts. Thanks so much for bearing with me. For now I will test out the Defiant set (with a little modification), but I will welcome feedback on whoever has similar experience. Feedback is also welcome on the entire analysis in general.

And yeah sorry for taking so long. There's just so much shit you guys suggested lol

 

[shrang]

Thunder Wave needs to be mentioned in the NP set, IMO. While Substitute is cool, T-wave gives you a chance to cripple all non Electric or Ground revenge killers and have a chance to hax your way past them.

 

[Subject 18]

Mixed Attacker
########
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Thunderbolt
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / U-turn / Taunt
ability: Defiant / Prankster
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 76 Atk / 180 SpA / 252 Spe

The EV spread should for this set should be 112 Atk / 144 SpA / 252 Spe. It allows you to always 2HKO 252/252+ Chansey with Superpower after Stealth Rock. I think Grass Knot is better in the last slot as a way to deal with Hippowdon, Quagsire, and Gastrodon, all of which are very common on stall teams. At the least if should be slashed after HP Ice. I personally don't really like U-Turn / volt switch on it especially with LO and SR it wears you down very quickly. Being able to break stall teams I feel has much more merit here.


Edit: Completely ignored Knock Off, my bad.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Why people keep talking about 2hkoing chansey with superpower? Just hit it with knock off on the switch to drop eviolite and you can ohko it with superpower on the next turn even without attack evs. The beauty of this is that even if chansey switches out, the fact it already lost eviolite means its pretty much useless for the rest of the match.

 

[Martin]

What I'm confused about is why Hidden Power Flying and Fly are on any of the sets. Hidden Power Flying has no use dispite STAB due to its low base power, and Fly (lol) is competitively useless, and Thundurus doesn't need a Flying-type STAB anyway, making these moves pointless in the first place.

On the subject of Hidden Power Flying, may I suggest putting Hidden Power Grass in OO as it is great for hitting things like Swampert and other Ground-types neutral to Hidden Power Ice, but explain that a 2x super effective one is the same base power as Focus Blast, and that Ice hits more pokemon for greater damage, most notably Dragonite and Salamence.


Also, based around SmashBrosBrawl's point, shouldn't Hammer Arm be dashed with Superpower on the mixed and Defiant sets as it doesn't get weaker over time (especially seeing as it is stronger by the second use). But make sure Superpower is first in the dash list.