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Thundurus-Therian (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by ThisMysteriousGuy, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    Credit to jc104 and Nachos for working on the OU analysis for Thundurus-T which I'm using as a base
    _________________________________________________________________

    QC Approvals: Trickroom, Theorymon, Shrang
    QC Rejections:
    GP Approvals: GatoDelFuego, Calm Pokemaster
    _________________________________________________________________


    [Overview]

    <p>While often finding himself in the shadow of his already uncommon Incarnate forme, Thundurus-T is by no means something to take lightly, even in the Ubers tier. Easily the most noticeable of all his traits is his incredible Special Attack stat, which gives him the single most powerful Thunder in the game excluding the more-or-less irrelevant Analytic Magnezone, a feat that is not to be underestimated as Thunder is a very potent move in the Ubers tier. His speed stat of 101 isn't bad either, allowing him to outspeed the plethora of Base 90s and 95s. Volt Absorb and his Ground immunity give him plenty of opportunities to switch in and wreak havoc. Access to two great setup moves, Nasty Plot and Agility, only further prove how threatening he can become.</p>

    <p>Unfortunately, several shortcomings hold Thundurus-T back from becoming a top-tier threat. The biggest problem isn't exactly a flaw Thundurus-T himself has, but rather the existence of Thundurus, which gives Thundurus-T huge competition thanks to the former's better Speed and access to an amazing ability in Prankster, albeit at the cost of some Special Attack. Zekrom also provides competition, due to having a Dragon typing, more mixed offenses, and much better bulk. Speaking of bulk, Thundurus-T has a major lack of it, meaning any decently powerful attack is likely to KO him, as well as an undesirable Stealth Rock weakness. Despite getting nearly perfect coverage with Focus Blast and Hidden Power Ice alongside Thunder, Focus Blast is rather inaccurate and Hidden Power Ice is a very weak move in the Ubers tier, so he can be walled relatively easily. Finally, Thundurus-T's speed, while decent, isn't quite good enough to outspeed threats such as Arceus, Latias, Mewtwo, and Darkrai, as well as the plethora of weather abusers and Choice Scarf users, so he will often find himself getting revenge killed without much trouble. Regardless, Thundurus-T access to one of the strongest Thunders in the game and two great immunities grant him a lease of life in Ubers. If you don't use him to his strengths, however, you'll find there are other Pokemon more suited for your team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb Attacker
    move 1: Thunder
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Volt Switch / Nasty Plot
    move 4: Grass Knot / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ivs: 30 Atk / 30 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>If you intend to use Thundurus-T in Ubers, this is by far the best set to use. Between having a good speed tier, a high Special Attack stat, and not really minding taking recoil considering how frail he already is, Thundurus-T makes a great Life Orb attacker. Thunder is simply non-negotiable for the choice of STAB move. Considering how prevalent rain is, which gives it perfect accuracy, as well as its high Base Power and chance of paralysis, the fact that Thundurus-T gets one of the strongest Thunder in the game only makes it all the more appealing. Although Focus Blast has very shaky accuracy, it is absolutely necessary in order to solve Thundurus-T's issues against Pokemon such as Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, and the Kyurem formes.</p>

    <p>The third slot is where it starts to get tricky. Volt Switch is usually the preferred option, as it allows Thundurus-T to scout switch-ins which he won't be able to fight normally while still dealing a sizable amount of damage. Nasty Plot is a more direct approach to dealing with counters by allowing Thundurus-T to boost his offenses while your opponent switches in a counter, giving the strength he needs to power through said would-be counter. Do be aware that Nasty Plot should only be used if you need to break through walls; it should not be used to sweep. The final slot really depends on what you are running in the third slot. Grass Knot may seem like an odd choice due to providing only a small amount of additional coverage, but it allows Thundurus-T to OHKO Groudon and 2HKO Ground Arceus, both of which can easily stop Thundurus-T from using Volt Switch. The lack of coverage against some Dragons and Arceus formes isn't really a deal breaker as Thundurus-T can just Volt Switch out of such threats, and he shouldn't be picking a fight with most of them in the first place. If you intend to use Nasty Plot, however, then Hidden Power Ice will give better overall coverage against some of the slower Dragons such as Giratina that would otherwise wall Thundurus-T, and after a boost he can do more damage to Groudon and Ground Arceus than an unboosted Grass Knot.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs are rather straightforward, dumping as much as possible into Special Attack and Speed. The remaining 4 EVs are put into Defense so that he can switch into Stealth Rock an extra time. The mentioned IVs are, of course, only used if you wish to use Hidden Power Ice. A Timid nature is essential to this set's success, as Thundurus-T needs every bit of Speed he can get. There are a few noteworthy alternatives for the above moves. First off is U-turn, which can replace Volt Switch if you are desperate for the ability to scout Ground type switch-ins. It also deals moderate damage to incoming Latias, Latios, and Mewtwo. However, the lack of overall power typically makes it inferior in comparison. Agility is also an option that can be used over Nasty Plot. This means Thundurus-T can do more than just punch holes into slower Ubers threats, since he can now clean up late-game if he gets the chance to set up. However, finding the time to set up is perhaps the biggest flaw with this move. Unlike Nasty Plot Thundurus-T, Agility Thundurus-T is helpless if the switch-in is something that would normally wall him, like Giratina-A or Blissey. Attempting to use it late-game also tends to get Thundurus-T killed because at this point typically all what's left on the foe's team are fast sweepers or cleaners that can easily bring Thundurus-T down.</p>

    <p>If there is one teammate that is absolutely necessary when using Thundurus-T, it's Kyogre. Not only does he provide the rain support Thundurus-T needs to use Thunder with perfect accuracy, but he also can give Thundurus-T free switch-ins on the Electric attacks often aimed at him. Choice Kyogre can come in more easily through Volt Switch, with Choice Scarf Kyogre dealing with the faster threats that Thundurus-T cannot fight and Choice Specs Kyogre breaking through the walls to make his job easier. Thunder Wave Kyogre can also be of use by slowing down foes to ensure that Thundurus-T need not worry about being outsped as much. Steel Arceus makes an interesting core with Kyogre and Thundurus-T as he resists Grass-, Ice-, and Rock-type moves, all of which the other two are weak to, as well as common Dragon-type moves. Grass Arceus, on the other hand, can deal with Groudon and Ground Arceus, two Pokemon Thundurus-T often has issues with if he doesn't land a Grass Knot, and spread paralysis. Ferrothorn can also provide paralysis support and has the ability to lay entry hazards.</p>

    <p>Thundurus-T has issues with bulky Dragons such as Latias, Latios, and Giratina, as well as Blissey and Chansey. Strong physical sweepers such as Terrakion, Zekrom, and Rayquaza can use the momentum provided by Volt Switch to come in and take care of these Pokemon. As mentioned before, he also has issues with his Speed, so a fast cleaner or revenge killer will certainly be of use. Genesect in particular can get rid of Latias and Latios, two of Thundurus-T's greatest enemies. Wobbufett is also a teammate that can come in handy should a situation ever arise where Thundurus-T desperately needs to pull off a Nasty Plot boost. Finally, Thundurus-T has a glaring weakness to Stealth Rock, so a spinner is always a welcome partner. Kabutops can spin and deal with Dialga, Arceus-Ground, and, to an extent, Ferrothorn, all of which are solid checks to Thundurus-T. He also attracts Electric moves due to his weakness that Thundurus-T can switch into. Forretress, another spinner, can tank a few physical hits while laying entry hazards and giving momentum with Volt Switch. Excadrill and Tentacruel are also good choices for spinners as they have good synergy with the rain teams Thundurus-T is commonly part of.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Unfortunately, Thundurus-T has a relatively shallow movepool, but there are still some other usable options. Perhaps the next best idea after the Life Orb set would be a Choice Scarf set. By equipping him with a Choice Scarf, Thundurus-T gains a substantial amount of Speed, enough to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame save for Deoxys-S. He can use Volt Switch early-game to rack up damage and scout and then revenge kill or clean up late-game using Thundurus-T's great coverage. Unfortunately, being locked into Volt Switch is not really a good thing considering how incredibly common Groudon is, and Focus Blast and Hidden Power Ice aren't exactly good moves to be locked into either, not to mention he loses out on a substantial amount of power without Life Orb and will often find himself outclassed by other Choice Scarf users such as Palkia. For similar reasons, a Choice Specs set is also not recommended. An Expert Belt set is always an option but Choice Thundurus-T is rather uncommon so bluffing a Choice set is rather pointless. The lack of power from the Life Orb set and the lack of Speed from the Choice Scarf set make it all the more useless.</p>

    <p>A stallbreaker set utilizing Nasty Plot and Substitute is also an option. Unfortunately, Thundurus-T seriously lacks the bulk to pull off such a set, as almost every Pokemon is capable of breaking his Substitute or phazing him. This job is best left to bulky SubCM users such as Giratina-O. Even Thundurus can pull such a set off better thanks to his access to Prankster Substitutes. Thunderbolt can be used instead of Thunder if one doesn't have access to rain, but because rain is so omnipresent in Ubers, plus the higher power and paralysis chance, there really isn't much of a reason not to use Thunder over Thunderbolt. He also has a decent Attack stat, and while his physical movepool is rather barren, he does get Superpower, which, with a Life Orb and without investment, has a good chance of 2HKOing Blissey and, after Stealth Rock, Chansey, and can OHKO Tyranitar. He also gets Crunch, which 2HKOes Latias and Latios after Stealth Rock given the same amount of investment and Life Orb. Thundurus-T also has a few support options in Thunder Wave and Taunt, but this is best left to Thundurus, who has access to Prankster which gives him priority in using these same support moves.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Outright countering Thundurus-T is rather difficult. This is because he is capable of simply scouting switch-ins with Volt Switch or U-turn, boosting with Nasty Plot, and launching devastating Thunders that also can paralyze. Regardless, there are plenty of ways to bring him to his knees. By placing Stealth Rock on the field, Thundurus-T will quickly build up residual damage from Life Orb recoil and switching out with Volt Switch or otherwise.</p>

    <p>Outside of this, there are two real ways of taking on Thundurus-T. The first way is using a Pokemon that can sponge his attacks and KO or cripple him in some way, as even with a Nasty Plot boost some Pokemon are able to avoid an OHKO from his attacks. Latias and Latios do not care about anything that he can do besides a boosted Hidden Power Ice and the rare U-turn and can proceed to set up Calm Mind or simply outspeed and KO with Draco Meteor. Bulky Arceus formes also have no trouble in taking on Thundurus-T assuming they resist or are immune to Thunder. Like the Lati twins, they too are often able to outspeed and KO Thundurus-T. Ground Arceus in particular can stop him from scouting with Volt Switch and is outright immune to Thunder, but must watch out for Grass Knot. Blissey and Chansey laugh at his attempts at dealing damage, although they cannot do much in return. Other bulky Ground-types such as Groudon and Excadrill can negate his Volt Switch, but both have to watch out for Grass Knot and Focus Blast, respectively. Bulky Dragon-types in general are decent checks, including Reshiram, Zekrom, the Kyurem formes, and Dialga, though Kyurem-W and Dialga both need to be wary of Focus Blast and Zekrom needs to watch out for Hidden Power Ice.</p>

    <p>Alternatively Thundurus-T can be taken out by simply revenge killing him. This is actually rather simple as his Speed tier, while good, leaves a lot to be desired. The aforementioned Latios, Latias, and Arceus, as well as Thundurus, Garchomp, Darkrai, Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, and every relevant Choice Scarf user in Ubers. Thundurus-T is also frail enough to be picked off with priority. Unboosted ExtremeSpeed from Extreme Killer Arceus is already a 2HKO and Thundurus-T fails to OHKO in return. The simple fact that Thundurus-T is really frail means that any moderately powerful attack that lands a hit will either seriously cripple or KO him.</p>
  2. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    This post is for the list of stuff I'll test, personal thoughts on sets, stuff I need QC to look at, etc.

    Sets I've tested:

    Choice Scarf

    Thoughts: It's good. Plays exactly how it does in OU: Volt Switch early game, revenge killer weakened sweepers thanks to great coverage, use other moves as necessary, clean late-game. Extremely likely it's going to be the first set of the analysis.

    Agility

    Thoughts: Can work, but the investments outweigh the benefits. OO.

    Choice Specs:

    Thoughts: It hits really hard, truth be told, but it sucks not having that really good boost of speed. It'll be in AC of Scarf unless QC objects.

    Expert Belt

    Thoughts: Sucks. Choice Specs without the insane power and the usually pointless ability to change moves. OO.

    Nasty Plot

    Thoughts: Suffers from being really frail, the need to use it mid-game unless you can somehow KO your opponent's cleaners and revenge killers before then, and being fairly easy to outspeed. OO.

    In the middle of testing:

    LO

    Thoughts: It's like if Expert Belt actually was able to deal decent damage. I rather like it to be honest. 2nd set.

    Sub NP:

    Thoughts: It's...uh...well IF you can get it setup (which I've only really managed to do on Ferrothorn) you can probably get a KO or two, maybe more if you're fast enough, but you still die fairly fast and it's not easy justifying use over something like Sub CM Giratina-O. OO unless QC objects.
  3. trickroom

    trickroom
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    For the Choice Scarf set you have to mention what Thundurus-T has, Zekrom doesn't.

    Scarf Zekrom gives stiff competition with Thundurus-T because Zekrom has more bulk, power, STAB Dragon-type which is powerful enough to OHKO most Dragon-type opponents, and is not Stealth Rock weak.

    Some notable advantages it has over Zekrom are faster ( mention you can revenge kill DD Rayquaza, guaranteed to outspeed Kyogre, immunity to Ground / Spikes and the occasional Thunder Wave, a stronger Volt Switch )

    Keep in mind Focus Blast does not come close to OHKOing either Arceus or Defensive Dialga while both of them can KO back in return. Remove the Thunderbolt slash and put it in AC. Thunder is really needed due to Thundurus-T's average power with Choice Scarf.
    Thunderbolt is too weak to even OHKO min HP Kyogre after SR.

    Mention Kyurem forms as checks because they only fear the unreliable Focus Blast while OHKOing back in return. Ground Arceus laughs at this set and it takes little from even HP Ice.

    No mentions of Grass Knot? Grass Knot is useful for the 2HKO on Groudon, Ground Arceus, and the occasional Gastrodon. HP Ice fails to 2HKO Groudon. Grass Arceus still beats you.

    Choice Specs looks worse than Scarf. The extra power is good but you are now outsped by a lot more, including Latias, Mewtwo and Darkrai. Besides Thundurus-T is frail by Ubers standards and SR weak.

    The great typing defensively isn't entirely true. You are weak to Ice, Rock attacks and Stealth Rock, and not resistant to Fire, Water, Dragon. You Electric-type immune it pretty useless when Zekrom has Terravolt, which means Bolt Strike OHKOes you, those who have Thunder will use another move that can OHKO Thundurus-T, examples will be Kyogre, Dialga and Palkia.
  4. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    How the hell did I forget about Zekrom...
    Yeah I'll talk about Zekrom cause that's actually pretty important in that it's a solid counter to Thundurus-T as well as giving Thundurus-T a rivalry.

    Yup, I'll put Thunderbolt in AC, since even if you don't have Rain support for some really weird reason Kyogre is insanely prevalent in Ubers. Also moving Focus Blast to Slot 4 because while it's insanely helpful for coverage it misses all the time and it usually only 2HKOs the Pokemon that are weak to it.

    Okay I'll do that.

    I haven't tested Grass Knot yet to be honest, though it's probably viable yes. I'll make it second slash with Focus Blast for now.

    I went back and tested Scarf and I found Scarf to be better than Specs cause of how insanely useful that extra speed was, even though Specs has that raw power. Specs is going to AC.

    Thinking about it...yeah it's not THAT great defensively considering the stats, but it's not horrible either. I'll need to fix that.

    In addition, I've done a bit of testing of the Nasty Plot set. I still need to test it more, but I haven't really gotten it to work. That set really shows how frail Thundurus-T and how it needs all the speed it can get when sweeping. While it is pretty damn strong, it's still ridiculously frail and is easy to revenge kill or even outspeed with a simple switch-in, specifically Lati@s. I guess I could use a bulkier spread, but then there's little to no reason to use it over Arceus-Electric. Anyways, it'll be OO for now until I can manage to get it to work or QC objects.
  5. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    This should be in QC so, change the tag to QC. I'll expand more when i get back home which is in about half an hour. :p

    This should be in QC so, change the tag to QC. I'll expand more when i get back home which is in about half an hour. :p

    Okey dokey, time to respond as promised.

    Overview

    -Dont see how the above is relevant, how Thundurus-T performs in OU hardly has any impact in Uber (very nitpicky i know but still)

    -Mention that a big draw to using it is the strongest STAB Thunder in the game coming off a 145 base SpA, it edged out Thundurus-I in this regard.

    Choice

    -Yeah, like trickroom, i'm not convinced about Specs. I tested it a couple of days back and it hardly managed to perform at all. Specs'd mons in Ubers are mons who have the bulk to take a hit and deal a massive amount of damage in return. Thundurus-T cannot take a hit at all, it does not fulfill the superfast category either. Spec's should be relegated to AC of Choice or possibly even OO.

    -Remove the first bit about higher Special Attack, the fact that Zekrom has a higher Attack is actually a point in favor of Zekrom since most Ubers have higher SpD than Defense so Zekrom will be hitting them on your weaker stat as compared to Thundurus-T. The major reason to use it the 11 extra Speed and possibly a stronger volt switch.

    -Mention that you lose a huge amount of 2HKOes if you run Thunderbolt, for example, your 2HKO on palkia now has only a measly 30% chance and similarly for other mons. Tbh, I think Thunderbolt should not be mentioned at all since, Choice Scarf Thundurus-T needs the raw power of Thunder and Thundurus-T needs rain support anyway. But even if you do mention it, emphasize on the loss in offensive power.

    -Mention generic Spin support for Thundurus-T since constant switching will wear him out soon (hazards as well but that is assumed :p)

    Checks and Counters

    -Mention that while Blissey and Chansey do wall Thundurus-T, its very easy to predict a switch and volt switch out to to an appropriate answer like a Terrakion or some other physical attacker to transfer the momentum to your side again. This is what makes Thundurus-T dangerous.

    rest looks fine. Once, you implement these change's i shall stamp.
  6. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    I'll get rid of that. It was more like something I was considering putting in the written version but yeah, it's not really imporant.

    How did I forget that...
    Also, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought Magnezone had the strongest Thunder (Not like it matters of course, Thundurus-T is still more powerful)

    Thought I moved that to AC. I do need to change the set name though.

    Guess I could do that. I would bring up the argument about Groudon, WoW Arceus, and WoW Giratina, but Thundurus-T tends to have trouble with them too so no point in that.

    Okay I'll put more emphasis on that, not removing it in case people think that it's somehow a good idea.

    Obvious.

    I'll put that at the very beginning of C&C, since this pretty applies to all of Thundurus-T's counters.

    I tested Expert Belt. It has neither the power of Choice Specs nor the speed of Choice Scarf. Adding to OO.

    I planned putting the other two sets into OO from the beginning so they're not insanely high priority.

    I'll be finishing up the Agility set's skeleton, and I really could use some input on that.

    EDIT: Skeleton is more or less done.
  7. gookie

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    I want to see a simple four attacks Life Orb, as I can see it being largely superior to Agility.

    Agility will pretty much never sweep a team, it is extremely frail, prone to priority, and weather reliant for its strongest move. Life Orb, on the other hand, can maintain momentum with Volt Switch, threaten Groudon with Grass Knot, abuse powerful boosted Thunders, and threaten Dragons or Steel-types with HP Ice and Focus Blast, respectively.

    The set I'm thinking about looks like this -

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Volt Switch
    move 2: Thunder
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    HP Ice has less utility on this set because Thundurus can't RK DD Quaza and they're unlikely to stay in on Thundurus. Groudon is now given the fuck you with Grass Knot and Ferrothorn and Dialga still fear boosted Focus Blast.

    I am rejecting Choice Specs because it has terrible utility and a widely resisted / immune STAB. It can neither revenge kill nor wallbreak effectively most of the time.

    I am approving Choice Scarf

    I will hold off on the stamp for now, because I want additional input regarding Thundurus-T's secondary set.

    edit: this set is basically making the most of what thundurus-t has to offer, it won't sweep with agility for the reasons i've outlined above, choice scarf faces the same SR weak, and specs' lack of flexibility make it inferior unless you predict correctly every time.
  8. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    The only problems I can really see with the set from a quick theorymoning is that you aren't exceptionally fast and you can probably be worn down fairly quickly with the combination of Life Orb and Stealth Rock due to the fact that you'll be Volt Switching often, so you'll need spinning support more than ever. Other than that it looks fine: Hits harder than Choice Scarf and doesn't lock you into a move. I'll be keeping Agility for the time being, but I will test the LO set as soon as I get the chance to.
  9. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    A few things:

    1)
    That should be:
    2) I feel like a broken record on this, but make Timid the nature on the Agility set. Like I've said so many times in OU and on IRC, it does not mean that when you outspeed everything at +2 mean you'll be able to do so when you can't pull off a boost (which is... likely). You'll be losing to all the base 100s, base 95s, and even +ve nature base 90s, which are getting more and more common.

    3) Have you tried SubNP? I haven't been playing Pokemon much lately because I've been really busy, but it looks like something that stall would have trouble dealing with. I know it's slow, but it still has a number of immunities and resistances it can use. Just get rid of Dialga, and Drown All-esque rain stall teams would crumble pretty quickly, IMO.
  10. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    I'm going to have to agree with Poppy, for a multitude of reasons. The largest two are the dual problems of the incredible difficulty I experienced (as expected) setting up against the offensive team variants that agility actually needs a boost to fare well against, and the prescence of a Pokemon capable of KOing Thund-t, while being virtually assured of living any attack it can threaten with. Pokemon such as Giratina-o and -A, many arceus forms, such as Grass, and pretty much every form neutral/resistant to Thunder and Grass Knot, can easily make your turn boosting your speed rather worthless.

    The lack of bulk this Pokemon suffers from, and its weakness to the two common modes of priority (as well as a worth mentioning Ice Shard weakness, as Mamo could predict a thunder or agility), means that the turn spent boosting your speed, even against the offensive teams you crave the boost for, has an excellent chance of being rendered much less valuable than another turn simply using the excellent firing power of this Pokemon, especially considering the likelihood that you will be starting with 75% of your health.

    I think Poppy's set is the best route to take, not only because of the above evidence in favor of attacking whenever possible, the difficulty in attaining a boost versus the teams you need it for, and its likely worthlessness versus teams that it is simple to find a turn for, but because you can apply much, much more offensive pressure, or at least I found this in testing, by running more coverage, and taking the extra turn to attack. The sheer power you bring to the table allows you to threaten many team archetypes right off the bat. Any variant of Kyogre bar scarf is likely to be forced out, Palkia can be beaten with minimal support, and not even rain's usual checks to their electric weaknesses can viably switch in. Ferrothorn obviously loses to Focus Blast, Gastrodon fears grass knot, as does any ground type common in ubers, and the Giratina forms have much more to fear from a Thundurus that is guarenteed to attack twice, especially Gira-o, than one that might use Agility. It also fares much better versus sun than the agility set in my opinion, as you are simply going to be forced out by latias in most cases versus sun, and potentially volt switching to take advantage can be a much better move than wasting a boost. If latias isn't present, sun can be in some serious trouble versus an all out attacker, as Grass knot/Hp ice/ and an Electric STAB obviously put a lot of pressure on Groudon/giratina form/Ho-oh cores, and with a thunder para even Grass arceus can be threatened.

    Point in case, I see little reason to boost your speed as opposed to attacking more often, when it is very difficult to grab those boosts against teams that they will be very useful against, and the already pretty simple job many Pokemon have of checking you will be much easier when you do not always attack twice in a row. I think the power and useful base speed and STAB of this Pokemon make it have a much better use of its sheer power and attacking type advantages versus every team archetype.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I wholeheartedly agree with syrim! Agility is useful against offensive teams, and good luck gaining a free turn with such a frail poke against such teams. Against more balanced and stall teams you are better off straight up attacking than spending a turn to use Agility, when so many pokes found in those teams can easily take 1 hit, such as Giratina-0, Giratina-A, Latias and the blobs, and ohko back, rendering Agility useless. Or you can even use NP to start smashing stuff.

    If you really want a set-up set that fares well against offensive teams, you should try a Sub set with 3 attacks. I am not sure about the item, but Lefties, EB and LO all have their merits.
  12. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Thundurus-T is frail, but it's not TOO difficult to set him up, IMO. He does have two very common immunities. The least thing you can do would be to do something like Encore something into Thunder, Thunder Wave or Earthquake (pretty common moves) with Wobbuffet and you'll have your set up turn ready and waiting.
  13. gookie

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    If you're going to dedicate Wobbuffet to set him up with there are much more threatening sweepers that you could do it with; it's not like Thundurus-T has Quiver Dance.

    It is ridiculously easy to revenge-kill Thundurus-T, as even stall has things like Scarf Kyogre for Nasty Plot, and Agility is easy to wall.

    If Thundurus-T could set up on his lonesome without much danger and still pose a significant threat to a range of playstyles then I would approve a boosting set, but as it stands, no.

    Also yeah U-turn can get a slash over Volt Switch as Theorymon mentioned on IRC, maintaining momentum without the risk of an immunity is always cool (for the LO set, scarf can get an AC mention I guess).

    Truth be told I'd be fine if Thunudurus-T didn't get an analysis at all, but it doesn't quite have the overwhelming grounds to reject it outright. As it stands I'm ambivalent towards whether it gets one or not, but if it does I'm not approving a boosting set.
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Yeah Poppy is right, why use Wobb support to set-up with Thundurus-T, when there are much more dangerous threats out there? And without Wobb support it is almost impossible to set-up as T-Wave and EQ users all have moves to hit you (Groudon, Giratina, Kyogre etc), so the only thing you can hope to force out and boost is choiced Thunder users (Zekrom is a no because Terravolt) and Forretress. You can't even set-up against Ferrothorn, as after a Gyro Ball, which does 35% min, and after 1 round of LO recoil, you are revenge killed by every common priority user (NormalCeus and Giratina-0).

    The only 2 sets that are worth it, i think, are the Scarf set, which has some distinct advantages over other Scarf users that allow him to fill a niche, and the all out attacker set, which as showcased by Syrim can be quite a pain for balanced / stall teams to handle with some proper support (hazards mainly and partners to break through special walls). Volt Switch, good Speed, awesome power and a very good and strong STAB all allow Thundurus-T to be a potent all out attacker.
  15. polop

    polop
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    I tried it but the only Pokemon that switched in on it were Chansey and Giratina-a. My +2 Thunders would kind of dent Chansey but Giratina-a was really problematic -_-, it would just Roar and I would be sad :(. Chansey wasn't dying either, just taking like 30% from my Thunders and... really my longevity just kept on going downhill, Substitue + Stealth Rock weak + subs broken by a single Seismic Toss... not really much fun :(. Besides I would be more pleased if I had just Volt Switched on the switch-in to stop the free Softboiled they got anyway...

    A pretty huge advantage that users of Substitute have is that they can use the Substitute, combined with a boosting move and some bulk to use it to break stall. Zekrom does this with Ferro, Giratina-O with Ferro, Dark Arc with Ferro and users of Dragon Tail, Thundurus-T can't do this to many Pokemon. While its physical bulk is so poor its Substitutes will die to a Dragon Tail. At least Terrakion's Substitutes can live a Dragon Tail. Thundurus-T can't have a Substitute live a single move unless its Forretress's Rapid Spin. So it kind of fails as a stall breaker too (I say this because for some reason I have seen very little stall teams on the ladder now :(). I really don't think it has much merit at all to be honest.

    Well, unless you REALLY hate Giratina-O then I guess this could see some use since it can OHKO that thing with a +2 HP Ice after Stealth Rock (assuming neutral nature and 0 sp def evs). Doesn't Terrakion do that better though 0_0? Also another problem is that it gets 2HKOed by Shadow Sneak after SR and after its used a Substitute. That bulk is not good !_!.
  16. ThisMysteriousGuy

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    I've been kinda busy this week with school and rl stuff (I usually update on the weekends) but I did manage to get a little testing today and here's what I have to say about the three sets everyone is arguing about (I haven't done a ton of testing but still a sufficient amount)

    Agility: So far, this set hasn't been pulling its weight like it used to. It CAN work when you get all the pieces aligned just right, but such a thing is very hard to pull off. Even if you get the boost on a switch, which, btw, isn't as easy as it may seem, you'll have to be able to deal with the switch-in as well, which is usually a bulky Pokemon that can take most of the attacks Thundurus can throw at them and KO right back or phaze. I have managed to get it to sweep weakened teams in the past but the amount of effort and the risk factor required just doesn't seem to make it worth it. To OO it goes.

    LO: I need to continue testing this, but so far it's been good. It's like the Expert Belt set except it actually deals relevant amounts of damage. Still, the fact that you're slower than stuff like Scarf Kyogre, Deoxys-A, and Darkrai kinda sucks, but at least you can hit pretty hard while also being able to switch moves. I'll add it to the analysis as the 2nd set. and will do Set Comments and the like when I'm done testing.

    Sub NP: I don't know about this one. It's actually not as bad as some people say, but I'm still not sure if I should give it its own set. Thundurus can actually deal with Ferrothorn pretty well. It's fairly easy to get to +2 or even +4 if your opponent doesn't immediately switch out. However, the set still isn't that great. You can probably get one maybe two KOs, but your sub can still be broken very easily, there's only a select handful of Pokemon you can setup on (I might be wrong on this, but so far Ferrothorn has really been the only one you can setup on without too much trouble), and there are still Pokemon that can easily beat you after you setup. Plus, most importantly, you have to compete with more bulky Sub users such as Sub CM Giratina-O. So this is one I still need to test a little more, but it's probably going to be OO.

    EDIT: Everything should be updated know.
  17. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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    From my testing of Thundurus-T, LO should be the first set. also tbh I want U-turn AT LEAST slashed in with Volt Switch. I wasn't really fond of Volt Switch, and U-turn at least did stuff like 45% min to Latias. Also helps that if you paralyze it with Thunder, you can really screw it over! I haven't tested Scarf yet, but I don't really see it having too many niches over the other Uber scarfers...

    As for Agility, I need to retest that, but if it preforms simillarly to my first test, then I'm sorta thinking that it should be merged with LO. I used it very much like the LO set, only when I knew the opponent could only stop Thundurus-T with scarfers, I'd encore something with Wobbuffet and get a surprise Agility. I'll post more on this later, but for now I request that LO is the first set.
  18. Alexander.

    Alexander.
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    In my honest opinion, in all out attacker set, expert belt is a good idea to do some surprise kill

    Also a double booster set with yache berry and screens can work, I would write 2 lines in OO about it.

    EDIT: thanks to furry
  19. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    I personally prefer the Scarf set to the LO set, but then again I haven't been using LO nearly as much Scarf, so I'll give it some more thought. If QC demands it, I'll put it as the first set regardless of my opinion. U-Turn I used in a few matches and I can see where you're going with that: While it was pretty weak at times, it actually did moderate damage to Lati@s and Mewtwo and being able to scout anything is always nice, so I'll give it second slash with Volt Switch on both sets.

    The main problem I had with Agility was that, while it was fully capable of working, it's rather tricky to setup and use without using Wobbuffet (as mentioned before there are more deadly setup sweepers to utilize with Wobbu), getting immediately walled, and/or using it late-game (in which case there are typically better options for cleaning). Still, with proper timing, it still works fine, but I'm not sure if I should slash it just yet.

    Nah, Expert Belt is staying OO, maybe AC but I didn't really like it at all when I tried it. Good luck revenge killing stuff since Thundurus's speed isn't the greatest in the world, it loses out on a lot power, plus it's still frail as hell.

    Aren't there better sweepers to set up behind screens like, say, Rayquaza? Even then, it requires more team support than before, you need like 5 turns to set it all up, plus you'll be rather limited in terms of coverage.

    I'll edit this post with responses to other posts. Also, yes, I know the skeleton became a ton more messy cause of the switching of the sets
  20. syrim

    syrim 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1

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    Unfortunately its two undoubedtly common immunities almost always come with coverage that can either straight up OHKO thund-t, like palkia's surf, zekrom's outrage, or groudon's stone edge. The ease the also common gira forms have in phazing torn-t at least once should also be taken into account, as if sr has been down, and you attack the gira form, you'll die to sr if it's gira-o and uses dragon tail, you'll be pretty close if its gira-a, and regardless you'll be in shadow sneak range the next time you come in, or in gira-a's dtail ko range with sr.

    This brings up the main reason I agree with the agility set not being listed, it is forced to make unnecesary predictions, like guessing if they'll stay in and ko you with almost any pokemon, or switch to gira-o, a basic 50/50 between agility and hp ice (that you lose regardless if they go to gira-o with sr up).

    I personally think on the LO attacking set, which should definitely be the first listed, HP ice should be the primary slash. The ability to 2HKO almost all gira-os with sr down is huge. I see the benefit of grass knot obviously, and being able to ko groudon with no prior damage is amazing, but most players who have a gira form will bring it in first. there's also the fact that team preview allows to see their electric resists bar ground/grass arceus, focus blast+hp ice 2hkos groudon, dialga, and almost every electric resist bar those that outspeed you, like ground arceus.

    It also prevents the very threating rayquaza from either being able to force you to rely on a 70% chance, or let it take a shot at something on your team.
  21. ThisMysteriousGuy

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    Yeah I know I really need to update this analysis more quickly. I'll do my best to focus on this more.

    Alright so I went ahead and did more testing of the Life Orb set. I ultimately have to agree that it should be the first set: The simple thought of being able to OHKO most Kyogre and Groudon while dealing tons of damage to anything else switching in or slower than it made it well worth it in my eyes, unlike the Scarf set which, while outspeeding the vast majority of the metagame, has trouble in netting some KOs.

    I think all the slashes are good for both sets but I might test the slashes more if need be.

    I also made various changes throughout the analysis, mostly adding more details to stuff as well as moving Thunderbolt to OO.

    Other than that I really don't know what else there is to include in this analysis (though knowing me I'm forgetting something really important).

    QC Approvals/Rejections perhaps?
  22. trickroom

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    After talking with Theorymon, only the All-Out-Attacker set will be approved. The Choice Scarf set simply lacks the moves or typing to work well. STAB Thunder is cool especially with a huge Special Attack stat but giving free turns to Ground-types with your main move sucks. Outside of Thunder, you also have to rely on Focus Blast and Grass Knot for coverage which isn't really reliable. U-turn is good but Thundurus is SR weak and does not have a high Attack stat. Zekrom is just the superior choice.

    The best use of Thundurus-T is taking advantage of that powerful Thunder that can paralyze stuff, has a bit of scouting potential with Volt Switch. Volt Absorb can be good at times, but Thundurus-T needs the ability to switch moves such as using Grass Knot on a Groudon who just switched into Volt Switch expecting to stop you.

    Without Wobbuffet it is almost impossible to setup Nasty Plot or Agility, so both moves should either be in AC for the All-Out-Attacker or move them to Other Options. Most things who use Thunder will have another move to OHKO you with, such as Dialga and Palkia. The reduced Speed also makes you lose to Latias, Garchomp and Terrakion, so Thundurus-I is the superior choice when used for Nasty Plot sweeping.

    If Agility turns out to be much better than Other Options, it can always be added later. You will usually just attack right away then trying to set up anyway so at the moment, the boosting moves are not worth slashing or a set.

    Lastly, mention Thundurus-T outspeeds Palkia which is pretty awesome, since you can smack it hard with Thunder.

    QC APPROVED 1/3 only for the All-Out-Attacker.
  23. ThisMysteriousGuy

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    Changes have been made and stamp has been added. Thanks!
  24. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    Sorry if I sound impatient with this bump, but could I get the remaining QC stamps/rejections asap? I kinda want to write this up before I go off on vacation on Sunday.
  25. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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    Ack sorry, I should have gotten to this sooner! anyways me and several QC members were talking (me furai and Jibaku), and theres gonna be some FINAL changes, then this will finally get approved, sorry for the looong wait!

    -Focus the overview on why you would use this over Thundurus, aka the most powerful Thunder in the game (be sure to mention that the 30% paralysis rate is a KILLER bonus) and Volt Absorb. However you also need to mention its flaws, like losing Pranskter and being slower than Latias, Latios, and Garchomp.

    -Make Thunder the first move, that extremely powerful Thunder is what DEFINES Thundurus-T in Ubers. Also make Focus Blast the second move as a stand alone, Thundurus-T really needs it to hit Ferrothorn, Dialga, Excadrill, and Tyranitar hard.

    -make the last slot Grass Knot / HP Ice, read below as to why.

    -Alright here's the biggest change: replace U-turn with Nasty Plot, but still keep Volt Turn. so Volt Turn / Nasty Plot in the third slot.Volt Turn is still the same bussiness, but mention that you generally use it with Grass Knot to hit Groudon hard unless you really need to be able to OHKO Rayquaza without the risk of a Thunder miss and 2HKO Giratina-O after SR. Now lets talk about Nasty Plot... Nasty Plot's main purpose isn't actually to sweep. The main idea of it is that you can use it to get past several of Thundurus-T's big problems when paired with Hidden Power Ice. +2 HP Ice deals 72-85% to physically defensive Giratina, 54-64% to specially defensive Giratina, you OHKO most Giratina-O after SR, OHKO Zekrom, and you 2HKO Chansey and Blissey via Focus Blast. Also mention that you deal 67-80% to 160 HP Latias, and while normally Latias will outspeed you, if you get the paralysis with Thunder, you can use NP as a chance to get a surprise kill on Latias later on the match. Make it clear that you aren't usually using Nasty Plot as a sweeping tool though, Thundurus-T has a very hard time setting up, and its speed, while good for an all out attacker, doesn't really help with sweeping much, as it gets revenged by ANYTHING thats faster than it (so scarfers, Mewtwo, Darkrai, Latias/Latios, Arceus, ExtremeSpeed). Instead, mention that Nasty Plot is more of a tool that allows Thundurus-T to break through some stuff it normally cant, actual sweeping tends to be a lot more situational. Oh one more thing to mention somewhere: with NP, you are gonna have to play more carefully with Groudon, you can't OHKO it with an unboosted HP Ice (though it still does a meaty 57-68% to max HP Groudon) since using Grass Knot totally destroys the point of Nasty Plot.

    -Mention U-turn in AC, it still does the scouting job and hurts Latias more so its worth a mention.

    -Agility should be mentioned in AC as a surprise move to clean up faster weakened mons, at the cost of scouting or wall breaking.

    -In the Kyogre section, I wouldn't call it a prime teammate, I'd go as far as to say that its 100% required, Thundurus-T is all about that powerful Thunder! I think you should also mention Thunder Wave Kyogre as a teammate: it lures in Latias, Latios, and Palkia, and totally screws them up. This is ESPECIALLY helpful for NP since a paralyzed Latias is screwed once it gets around that 67% range and is paralyzed. Grass Arceus can also be another good Twaver that can lure in Latias.

    -In addition to the part where you mention Steelceus, mention that Ferrothorn fits in pretty well too, and it can use hazards + twave to support Thundurus-T.

    -Remove Dialga, Ferrothorn, and the Kyurems as problems. While Dialga and Ferrothorn aren't OHKOed by Focus Blast, both take over 70% so I wouldn't call them Thundurus-T's big problems. the Kyurems are also OHKOed after SR BEFORE a boost. Latias an Latios stay for sure since you need support to have a chance against those two, Chansey, Blissey, and Giratina can be mentioned with the condition that you dont have an NP boost. Thundurus-T's real problem is that anything that is faster than it is going to murder it... so basicly a ton of scarfers, Terrakion, Darkrai, Mewtwo, and almost every Arceus. That is sadly... a really diverse crew right there. I wouldn't get too specific here since thankfully Thundurus-T doesn't usually try to sweep, so the closest things I can mention to teammates on this part are: Scarf Genesect can scare off Latias, Latios, Darkrai, and Mewtwo, Wobbuffet can revenge kill scarfers, can screw up most offensive Mewtwo in the rain once, and help set up NP during emergency situations. Otherwise... smart switches are your friends here.

    -Add Tentacruel and Excadrill to the spinners list, both are very good on rain teams.

    -Remove all the stuff about hazards, pretty much every offensive mon likes that. Instead, mention hazards when you mention teammates that can set them up, aka Excadrill, Forretress, Ferrothorn.

    -In Checks and Counters, the FIRST thing that should be mentioned is that Thundurus-T is hard to switch into beacuse of the powerful Thunder + Volt Switch stuff, but very very easy to revenge kill. aka Mewtwo, Darkrai, Arceus formes, scarfers, and priority attacks (I know you mentioned this, but this needs to be what you first mention). Then mention the hazards, then mention how Giratina, Chansey, and Blissey beat non Nasty Plot versions.

    Okay... that was a fucking lot to say, and I'm really sorry this has been taking so long. I trust you'll implement these changes though, so QC Approved 2/3!

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