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Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by PureQuestion, Feb 17, 2013.
mons that should be suspected :
Thought I'd share a fun replay here since there's a lack of em (if anyone else got some nice replays, do post!):
Nice and close game here with a Choice Specs Yanmega that caught me off guard and hits hard (I thought it runs HP Ice somehow). But CS Sleep Talk Heracross really shows what it can do in this meta where sleep reigns. Although the Researched mons didn’t get much playtime here as I Spored his Piloswine and Empoleon didn’t get any action until the end to finish the game. I didn’t really need that agility tho.
I got lucky that his Breloom couldn’t finish my Amoonguss with a Substitute up but then again he got lucky with my Heracross Sleep Talk shenanigans vs his Heatran.
I haven't seen a lot of Yanmega, which is surprising, yeah, since it has some really great abilities and a great special attack.
I am surprised at this as well. At a tournament I was at on Saturday, a guy was running Tinted Lens Yanmega. It did some work on me one game, and knocked out 3 of my guys with Air Slash flinching. If it had had Speed Boost, I'd have been in trouble.
Anyone considered.... THIS guy?
Like F from, it got the biggest boost of the Rotom bunch, but unlike F it functions outside of weather and has fewer weaknesses. More bulk than the more used forms, 120 SpA, and 91 Spe. Ground, Bug, Fighting and Grass resist. Looks like a nice scarfer/defensive pivot for a team.
(btw, it IS a nice scarfer)
What STAB does it gain?
dat STAB Air Slash
Rotom-F has potential as a paraflincher with its huge bulk and speed.
Awww. I was hoping it got Hurricane or something else semi-useful, and not flinchax.
No... though it still does the basic Rotom jobs, like trick, willowisp, painsplit, volt switch, all of which go a little better thanks to the stat boosts. The loss of a strong neutral coverage stab does make it a less versatile offensive presence though. (Though thunderbolt does respectable damage off 120SpA)
I've been messing around on the ladder some. One thing that surprised me was how effective subroost articuno is.. It has enough bulk to almost guarantee the first sub and once it gets going...
You have to have something bulky enough to handle hurricane, fast enough to not get subroosted, and strong enough to do >82% to this bulky behemoth.
The fact that it can reliably stall out CB kyurem b's fusion bolt with rocks on the field and come out with 100% health and a sub says a lot.
There are also.. A lot of threats to cover in this meta! So much so that people leave themselves open to a lot of potent threats. Dragon STAB wrecks when most people decide not to use a steel type as their wall. Rain sweepers wreck all non grass types(and even then there are hurricane and ice beamers). But then your grass type is deadweight against powerful sun teams. Stoutland basically forces you to run weather or very strong priority since ghosts are trapped by ttar(or hit by crunch) and rocks/steels are nuked by CB superpower.
You can play anti-meta with things like ninjask really hurting weather sweepers, but ninjask is extremely mediocre against defensive teams as it can't reliably boost and is owned by SR.
I think a threat list should be put together tbh as this is THE hardest meta to keep track of every possible threat.
Seriously though, I completely agree that it's hard to keep track of threats. In terms of covering types, I can be having a good set of matches one day, be very confident about the team's construction, and then the next I lose to everything because of holes that just weren't problems before.
I've been seeing a lot of weather, and therefore I have been trying to find solid counters to each weather starter and their friends.
"Ninetales + Grass/Fire Types" is the most common team style I've seen, though it's only perhaps 30% of all teams. (If that.) Ninjask, as I wrote earlier, completely slays every grass type that abuses sun, barring Tangrowth and Tangela. (Which he can still 2HKO.) Scarf Rapidash does a pretty good job of being a counter-abuser. It's immune to fire, resists grass. Flare Blitz, Drill Run, Return, and Wild Charge make for pretty good coverage. Flame Charge and a life orb or expert belt can be used for getting the boost while still dealing heavy damage, but you'll want the power of Flare Blitz on there too.
"Politoed + Water/Steel Types" is also very common. Drizzleswim is banned, so you don't have to be quite so ludicrously fast to beat it. If they're using Rain Dance instead of Politoed in order to use SS, though, Scarf Electrode will kill every swift swimmer sans Kingdra. (And it won't outrun Floatzel.) Otherwise, Specs Zebstrika and CB/Scarf Electivire have proven very devastating. Electivire can switch into Thunder, and he's actually pretty bulky. With his wide offensive movepool and +10 to all of his stats, he's almost as good as everyone expected him to be back in DPP! Rain abusers in general didn't get the massive stat boosts that sun abusers did, so his base 133 attack stat is perfect for smashing walls. Still limited to Wild Charge for physical attacks, though. If you go for a special set, base 115 isn't terrible by any means, and there are stronger special moves to be using. You'll miss having Earthquake, Ice Punch and Cross Chop, though. Choice Scarf is decent for outrunning a lot of new fast Pokemon, but Electivire seems to be more about crushing the Pokemon the enemy switches to, anticipating a STAB attack to beat their water type.
I haven't tested out any /one/ Pokemon that can pick apart Sand or Hail teams yet, but they're somewhat less common. I'll get to it, though. For now, the best anti-weather 'mon that I've used is Rain Dance Altaria with Cloud Nine. The thing is bulky as hell with Cotton Guard, and it can easily last the five turns to let the Rain disappear if the enemy doesn't have any ice types handy. (And you can dodge some of the slower ones with Roost. Altaria can tank physical hits easily after a Cotton Guard.) It can even go on the offensive with Dragon Dance!
Trait: Cloud Nine
EVs: 192 HP / 64 Def / 252 SDef
- Rain Dance
- Dragon Dance
- Cotton Guard
- Dragon Claw
This thing has straight up won games for me after the enemy weather starter is slain. If you have other means of ending weather, I recommend this set:
Trait: Cloud Nine / Natural Cure
EVs: 192 HP / 64 Def / 252 SDef
- Dragon Dance
- Cotton Guard/Roost
- Dragon Claw
Substitute is fun for stopping status so that you don't even have to switch out for Natural Cure. It even absorbs a priority attack so you can kill whatever used it! Roost is good for healing and resisting some slow ice/rock/electric attacks, so it's a solid option if you decide to forgo Substitute or Cotton Guard.
After Cotton Guard: The Honkalculator doesn't have an All vs. One calculator that factors in Tier Shift boosts, but the highest not-ice and not-specs-Draco-Meteor damage is done by full-health CB Archeops' Head Smash. Not even a OHKO! CB Zweilous doesn't KO with Outrage. CB Rampardos only have a 50/50 chance to 2HKO with Head Smash (factoring in lefties) and you can roost in its face, taking a pittance for damage instead. The highest non-super-effective physical attack is Gigalith's Normal Gem Explosion, which deals a scant 40%.
I've found it to be a much better bulky Dragon Dancer than Dragonite, barring Multiscale. (Which is oh so hard to maintain with all these hazards.)
So I've learned something: Lapras does not stop all in the rain. Two leaf storms in a row will KO, so one had better switch out or predict and use rest on the turn of the first shot. I've seen people run Lapras as a lone defensive island, but a strong super effective from a base 130 quickly undid it.
If I play Lapras, I'd Consider using Amoongus to cover its weak spots.
What are the benefits of Ferroseed vs Ferrothorn?
I've been using Ferroseed but I'm thinking of switching back.
Ferrothorn, IMO, is a lot better than Ferroseed. Without reliable recovery, even leftovers, the boosts in defense is offset by all the chip damage it receives through tanking hits and hazards. Although it can be offset somewhat with leech seed, Leftovers is a really big loss for a barely noticeable gain.
That's why you predict Leaf Storm (which should be extremely obvious) and use Rest on the same turn, unless you face something with Specs. Specially defensive Lapras should have no trouble taking a non-Specs Leaf Storm.
I also run Protect on mine to ease the prediction. It's also useful to recover some HP from lefties after taking SR/Spikes damage.
Ferroseed is bulkier when Leech Seed is up and is OHKOed less often. Ferrothorn is better for setting up hazards fast, paralyzing and attacking.
If you want a dedicated wall for a rain stall team, then go with Ferroseed. Ferrothorn is less niche and better in every other situation.
Taunt and trick also make Ferroseed cry a lot more.
Oh and another thing is that Ferroseed is only good as a max sDef wall, while Ferrothorn is a better mixed wall.
I used Ferroseed A LOT. It takes less damage than ferrothorn, and because it has less hp it recovers better with leech seed. (It's also better at receiving wishes) It can't do two things at once though. If Ferroseed wants to recover even a little, you must set up seeds. Ferrothorn can scout and recover at the same time, and has much more offensive presence than Ferroseed.
If you are aiming to stall or wish pass a lot, go Ferroseed. If you want a faster paced strategy, go Ferrothorn.
Hey, folks. I finally found something that can OHKO Cresselia. Behold, the Crunching Crawdad!
Actually, let's call him the Freshwater Flinger. With Adaptability, his STAB modifier is x2 instead of x1.5. Fling has a base power of 130 if you're flinging an Iron Ball. Combine these two things, and you have a 6.25% chance to OHKO max defense Cresselia! Now, Choice Band or Dragon Dance are both better general-purpose options for Crawdaunt. But... it OHKO's Cresselia! CB Crunch will 2HKO even after Moonlight (or Wish+Protect) and Leftovers, though, so you should probably just use that. Or Dragon Dance on the protect stage.
The moral of the story? Carry an Intimidate Scrafty when using Cresselia. :3
Now for dusclops: 252+ Atk Iron Ball Adaptability Crawdaunt Fling (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 244-288 (82.99 - 97.95%)
Thread is quiet so I'll make a post. Just now I'm using a lot of different team styles - all the weathers, offensive for some and balanced for others. I also tried sand stall as that is what many of the players at the very top of the ladder are using, but stall is just too boring for me (and takes a while to win). It is deadly in patient hands though. Continually battling Alomomolololololol and the rest of Regenerator co as they laugh off all your attacks is one unpleasant experience, and shows just how effective stall can be (as Zarel said the tier shift boosts have a quadratic effect on defense).
One team style that is really fun (and quick) to play is all out sun offense. It's already been said but the amount of nukes to be dropped when sun is up is unreal. I'm testing quite a lot of offensive Fire and Grass types - Darmanitan, Victini, Infernape, Sawsbuck, Victreebel, Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Flame Charge Heatran, Volcarona; the options are endless and amusing. They are all similar in that if the opposition has no weather, they are usually toast. These sun teams don't bother with defensive synergy and stuff, I'm just packing Ninetales, Dugtrio and Xatu and then three nukes to see what works. Walls are overloaded and revenge killers outsped. Here's a short log of a test team just to emphasize how deadly it is when you can keep momentum against weather (and hopefully to encourage less stall teams). http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-16295080
Anyway, I'm interested to know, What do you think is currently the most effective playstyle? With so many viable team styles and pokemon it's a tough question to answer, if there even is one, but hopefully it promotes some discussion- this thread is great, let's keep it active.
Sun did get the strongest buff of all weathers, simply because Swift Swim is banned and not many pokes carry Sand Rush.
Actually a lot of those buffed mons wouldnt be in their respective tiers if Drought wasnt banned there. Sawsbuck for example would no way be a NU poke if Drought was available there. Hell, I wouldnt be surprised if it would be banned from UU even.
The only disadvantage Sun has is it's weather starter, boasting mediocre stats at best and a weakness to SR.
A lot has yet not been explored to see what is most viable though. I havent seen a lot (if any) dedicated stall teams so far, while a lot of pokes are worth a try on a stall team: Suicune, Tropius, Alomomomomomola, Chansey, Articuno,...
Trick Room seems to be better in TS than in regular OU. Also because a lot of slow hard hitters now hit even harder (Escavalier, Golurk, Marowak, Aggron,...) and because the game's best TR setters also receive a boost (Porygon2, Cofagrigus, Dusclops, Slowbro/Slowking, Cresselia, Claydol,...).
Standard Weatherless Offense is pretty much absent in this metagame tho, havent played vs any (viable) weatherless heavy offense team.
Hey guys, i feel like it is time to give my opinion on TS. You may know me as balderr(2), TierShift, or the guy that keeps haxing Arkeis :)
First of all, huge props to PureQuestion for making TierShift! Many have tried to create a metagame in which a lot of lower rank pokemon are viable, with complicated buffs, weird new mechanics or complex changes, but this concept is so simple and at the same time does what it needs to do: make lower tier pokes viable in a OU-like metagame. This doesn't mean that actually more pokemon are viable than in OU, but definitely different pokes and strategies. So far I have enjoyed the tier really much, it is vastly different from regualr OU and I am still discovering new things daily!
At first i expected a few NU threats to be hugely overpowered, such as Shedinja, Pikachu, Charizard, Shuckle and Regirock. This is obviously not the case, with the first three being complete shit (seriously people, don't use Shedinja), Shuckle strong but only without hazards and Regirock pretty okay on Sand teams. But my point is, nothing is too OP, everything balances each other out nicely, so again, thanks PureQuestion for this awesome metagame!
The tier puts a huge emphasis on weather, with a lot of good weather abusers getting +15 to all their stats. For that reason, I have not seen many good weatherless teams (kudos, Arkeis). Weather wars are really important in this tier, more so than in OU, losing the weather war generally means losing the game. This may sound boring, but there are many new ways to confront the weather war, with all the newly viable pokes. There are 3 main weathers, rain, sun and sand:
Rain teams are offensive of nature and usually feature Politoed with at least one Hydration pokemon, such as Swanna, Lapras or Whiscash. These pokemon can act as status absorbers and have a move with which they recover all their health and lose their status, Rest. It is generally not really easy to win the weather war with Toed, but if you manage and your Lapras/Whiscash is healthy, it is basically gg. Generally these teams try to switch in Toed really often, so predict well and take the frog down when playing against it.
Sun teams are mostly offensive of nature as well. They need Ninetales, a spinner or bouncer, Dugtrio and some abusers. There are a hell of a lot new Chlorophyll pokemon, all insanely strong such as Sawsbuck, Exeggutor and Victreebel. At the very beginning there were a lot of sun teams, but the usage seems to have died down. The disadvantage of these teams is that Ninetales is really a bad poke and hard to keep alive, the good part is that the sun abusers threaten the other weather inducers, so it might be hard to get your own weather up against sun. Sun teams rely immensely on their bouncer/spinner, so take advantage of that while playing against it.
Sand teams can be defensive or offensive. Sand stall is in my opinion the best style of team at the moment and the top of the ladder seems to agree. Sand doesn't rely so much on abusers, but on residual damage and not giving the opponent's weather a chance to shine. That doesn't mean that they don't have abusers, Stoutland is the main Sand Rush user, with Sandslash also doing a good job. Sand stall tries to win the weather war by hazards, restricting other inducers to maybe 3 switchins. Try to status the inducers, that is your best chance of winning the weather war when playing against sand.
As I just explained, weather is so important, that i would recommend every team to be based around weather and also have solid answers to other weathers. A strong antiweather mon like Sigilyph is a welcome addition to a lot of teams.
And now here is what you all have been waiting for, the awesome pokemon nobody uses but is awesome:
Shelgon @ Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 236 Def
- Dragon Dance
- Sleep Talk
Well, here I am giving you some nice food for thought. You might declare me crazy for using gimmick sets and stuff, but well, I wanted to give it a try and I must say that I am very positively impressed. As the metagame is very physically oriented, it can really shine right now. First of all, it is a good status absorber and immune to SS/hail damage. Secondly, it walls most physical attackers into oblivion and sets up on every physical attack barring the unusual outrage. After a few dragon dances, it OHKO's almost everything and at +6, it can 2HKO even physically defensive Forretress and Skarmory. The only ways to deal with it are strong special attackers, which most teams have just 1 of, Taunt users, which are not that common, and phazers. The first 2 are usually easy to eliminate, while the last can be completely demolished by sacrificing your other members for a final last poke sweep. So, what do you guys think of Shelgon?