1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Tier Shift Metagame (THIS IS BW)

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by PureQuestion, Feb 17, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mr Omgness

    Mr Omgness

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    I actually used a Shelgon a while back in a TS team but as a pure physical wall, because it crossed my mind when thinking of Sawsbuck counters. Interesting approach with the DD in the moveset, i might give it a try.
  2. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    713
    This is probably my most successful team. It does fairly well against rain and sandstorm. I haven't really run into sun in a while, but hail wasn't so bad. The highest players I beat with it are 1700s.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Show Hide

    Rotom-Fan @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunder Wave
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

    Empoleon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock

    Roserade @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Sleep Powder
    - Aromatherapy

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Calm Mind
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    Mienshao @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn

    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Protect

    Rotom Fan, I find, does the bulky status spammer better than Wash does. It's offensive presence is significantly tighter, but its better bulk and typing make it good at disabling many physical attackers.
    Empoleon feels... un-versatile. Once it's in I feel limited in how I can respond to a situation, probably due to the lack of reliable recovery, power, or status. (also, its defenses aren't the best in the world.) Still it has good synergy with the team by carrying key resists.
    Roserade's small power boost makes a significant difference in its ability to do damage with leaf storm, and it finds plenty of chances to enter the fray especially thanks to natural cure and high special defense.
    Latias I've used in a few different ways, but it's clear now that calm mind is what it does best. Its stats aren't good enough to carry a defensive core, nor does it pull the tank role very well. It does however have the right stats and movepool to calm mind boost ftw.
    Mienshao hits very hard, and has eliminated many threats and cleaned up many games for me. Even Fake-out scores KOs with the life orb and tiershift boost. Frail, but dangerous.
    Tentacruel was the last one to enter, providing extra hazard damage for Mienshao to take advantage of and reliably providing rapid spin support just like in regular OU. It's resistances are still very relevant in this metagame.

    My biggest problem has been with very fast Pokemon, causing me to play defensively for the first 10-15 turns until I can hit them with the correct status or pull them into Fake-Out range.
  3. Mr Omgness

    Mr Omgness

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    Sharing another replay of a good game here:
    http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-17883221

    Sun vs Rain Hurricane

    I tinkered around with a team trying to involve Moltres and his huge SpA stat and had to integrate it in a Rain team to abuse Hurricane. I added Tornadus as another Hurricane abuser and because of Prankster Tailwind which facilitates a late game Moltres sweep. I maintain a steady place in the top 20 with the team so far.

    Choice Specs Moltres is a nightmare for sun teams as it resists the most common attack types: grass and fire, is immune to the no.1 coverage move for sun teams: ground and also resists fighting on top of that. You just got to deal with a stealth rock weakness.

    He missed his WoW twice, but I dont think it mattered seeing as Moltres had 3 turns of Tailwind left at the end of the battle.

    I also included Seismitoad in the team because I needed something to deal with electric abusers. From all Ground/Water types he now has the best defensive stats but lacks Recover or Roar. But as Gastrodon's bulk has become a let down now and lacks SR and Swampert doesnt have a handy ability like Seismitoad does I decided to go for the warty frog. Sometimes I think he would work better as a physical wall rather than a special wall; I might make him switch roles with Tentacruel. Quagsire is another option.

    I wish I could have integrated some Thunder abuser somewhere but I dunno what I could drop out of the team.

    Team:
    Show Hide
    Politoed @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Perish Song
    - Toxic

    Moltres@ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    TimidNature
    - Fire Blast
    - Hurricane
    - Hidden Power Ground
    - U-Turn

    Tornadus@ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
    Naive Nature
    - Hurricane
    - Superpower
    - Tailwind
    - U-Turn

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88Def / 168 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Protect
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Gyro Ball

    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Scald
    - Sludge Wave
    - Protect

    Seismitoad @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
    Calm Nature
    - Rain Dance
    - Knock Off
    - Scald
    - Stealth Rock
  4. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    713
    Playing only 2 or 3 matches a day, I've finally hit the 1700s. My conclusion? Latias is a calm minding beast. An enemy team tends to have 1, maybe 2 counters for Latias that need to be eliminated before it can start setting up and then sweep. In other words, it's still very good here.
  5. Ninechu

    Ninechu

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    11
    Two pokemon that don't seem to get too much attention, but are monsters are Carracosta and Armaldo. These guys are crazy.

    Armaldo

    [​IMG]
    85/140/115/85/95/60
    Impish
    252hp/4atk/252def
    Swift Swim

    -Stone Edge
    -Toxic
    -Rapid Spin/Stealth Rock
    -Stealth Rock/X-Scissor/EQ

    Despite Armaldo looking like a sweeper (either Rock Polish, SD, or Swift Swim), it has nice bulk (that can be boosted by sand), sporting 85/115/95 defenses. While this might seem a little unimpressive at first look, a base 140 attack allows it to fully invest in Hp and Defense, making it a great physical wall, also in possesion of incredible utility moves like Rapid Spin, SR, and Toxic. It can also go on the offensive as well, but a decent typing and good stats make it great at tanking.

    Carracosta

    Two Words:
    Shell Smash.

    GG, tier shift.

    [​IMG]
    84/123/148/98/80/47
    Adamant
    252atk/252spe/4def
    Solid Rock

    -Shell Smash
    -Stone Edge
    -Aqua Jet
    -EQ

    It's crazy how many teams Carracosta has completely demolished. With shell smash Carracosta just becomes insane, and still has decent physical bulk after due to that high defense stat. A priority move in Aqua Jet to pick off fast scarfers combined with a powerful STAB move in Stone Edge and reliable coverage in EQ, carracosta just gives zero fucks.
  6. BlankZero

    BlankZero
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    Jumpluff says hello to ever single Carracosta, even more so with a Focus Sash on, but it is still a good Rainmon.
  7. Unoriginal Name

    Unoriginal Name

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    632
    I would like to talk about this guy:
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Though I've already briefly covered him in Research Week here, I'm going to add to that. Klinklang, as (arguably) the best offensive Steel type besides Scizor and Heatran in the game, is a solid Pokemon in Tier Shift. Though his Speed comes up short (base 100 is almost enough, but not quite) he is still very deadly once most of his checks/counters (Ground/Flyings or any other Grounds who resist Steel, really, plus Taunt users when he is trying to set up) are removed.

    My favourite set:
    [​IMG]
    Klinklang @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 36 SDef / 108 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Gear Grind
    - Wild Charge
    - Shift Gear
    - Substitute

    Fairly standard, save the EVs, which are still pretty straightforward. 36 Defense can be used in place of the 36 SDef, but other than that, I have had great success with this spread. 108 Speed investment is just enough to outpace certain important threats, while 112 HP is good enough to live many attacks that Klinklang'd otherwise fear (IIRC, he can survive a -1 Jump Kick from Sawsbuck without hazards, which can be achieved with Intimidate support - don't quote me on this, however, as I'm not sure the EVs of the Sawsbuck, nor if I was using my improved spread at that time).

    Gear Grind is the main STAB, being able to hit through Substitutes (a capability every team should have in Tier Shift) and Sturdy, while having decent base power to boot. I use to run Return over Wild Charge, but Jellicent and whatnot walled me to hell and back; now Ferrothorn does that (lol), but still. Shift Gear is the obvious set-up move, and Substitute aids said set-up. Shift Gear's Speed boosts catapult Klinklang to the range where he can outspeed Sawsbuck after 2 turns of setup with the given EVs.

    To get a sweep with this guy:
    1) Remove Steels who resist/are immune to Electric
    2) Remove Grounds who resist Steel
    3) Remove anything else that resists Steel and Electric
    4) Remove priority users
    5) Bring Klinklang in on something that can't Taunt, Encore or 3HKO (and preferably can't break a Sub) and Shift Gear a couple of times
    6) Sweep away!

    A lot of work, but being a gear, you'd expect needing to devote lots of work to keep it in tip-top shape. Once you have 2 or 3 Shift Gear boosts and all the aforementioned checks/counters are removed, well, to put it simply, your opponent is screwed.

    I'm not really sure about the EV spread, but nonetheless, this set is effective. Even if you can't get a full sweep, taking out 1 or 2 opposing Pokemon is a great skill to have. I call this guy my "utility sweeper"; checking or setting up on stronger Pokemon my team otherwise struggles with.

    From what I've tried, this set works best with a defensive Rotom-H as a teammate, though I'm sure there are other good teammates out there. A fast revenge killer of weather teams (IE Scarf Gardevoire) and a Gliscor also work well as teammates.
  8. Ninechu

    Ninechu

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    11
    Jumpluff does kill him, but theres not too much else. Jumpluff also needs Sun or Carracosta to not have any boosts, else Stone Edge will kill it.

    Klingklang looks pretty cool as well
  9. blahpy

    blahpy

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    shedinja is a bit broken huh?
  10. Qwilphish

    Qwilphish Spiritual
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Messages:
    510
    Shedinja is in no way shape or form broken. Just because it doesnt die instantly doesnt mean that it doesnt die to every super-effective hit. Also, now since it doesn't die to every hazard instantly, the flaws in its horrible defensive typing truly shows; Weak to SR, vulnerable to all forms of status/hazards, weak to so many types. Especially because many choose to forego Focus Sash, there is no protection from any super-effective hit besides possibly a Substitute. Unless you lack a super-effective move (which you dont really need to go out of your way to do) Shedinja is easily handled.
  11. BlankZero

    BlankZero
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    Gotta watch for Sleep Powder too. I regularly sweep teams with Jumpluff, as even out of sun, it's stupid fast. If not for Flying Gem, I'd always run Yache Berry on it or Sash due to its frailty.
  12. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
  13. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    I think it's time we start looking into unbanning some Ubers. Excadrill can almost certainly come back, since Stoutland is arguably as good as it when you take into account Stoutland's stat boost.

    Other things we can test include Blaziken, Thundurus-I, Tornadus-T, and Lugia.
  14. TheFourthChaser

    TheFourthChaser #TimeForChange
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,509
    I don't know if Tier Shift should really try dropping Ubers but thats a different matter altogether.

    IF this began Excadrill is probably the best place to start, my only real problem with it is that Sand, prolly the number one weather here, gets another powerful toy to play with. Blaziken I feel doubtful about because of how strong Sun is in the tier. I personally don't like the Thundurus test because of how lame an ability Prankster is but Torn-T is something I'd be more willing to test since in TS I see it as another Rain tool (it is very odd to me that Rain could use another good mon in a tier) that doesn't push the weather over the edge. I wouldn't mind a Lugia test if the tier were like OU, much more attention, but in this case I'm against it just because it could be a large, almost unexplored problem that wouldnt have much a push to get rid of if needed.
  15. BlankZero

    BlankZero
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    This should wait til after the Tournament is over, ya?
  16. jeremy55

    jeremy55

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Stoutland isn't near as good as Excadrill. Much worse STAB coverage and no SD. Walling it is trivial and even banded, there's a lot of bulky stuff that it can't 1hko, even with a super effective attack, that hit it very hard in return.

    I'd like to see some usage stats for TS, specifically usage stats amongst players who actually have played enough games to be rated, because I hardly see seriously threatening sand teams. Most teams are either sun, using weather as a counter to sun and not basing their team around it, or not using weather at all.

    That said there are really not nearly enough people playing the tier to get a good gauge of things which makes me sad.
  17. Ninechu

    Ninechu

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    11
    Originally posted by Fat Super Mario Bro
    I don't really think we should re-introduce ubers, rather boost everything else up to ubers standards, +5 more for each tier under Ubers.
    I'd also like to mention Feraligatr and Moltres- These guys are actually extremely underrated and powerful. Moltres has 100/110/100/135/95/100 base stats, which are ridiculously high. Feraligatr has 95/115/110/89/93/88 base stats. Not quite as eye opening as moltres, but great physical bulk allows it to easy set up swords dances and sweep.
  18. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,158
    Yeah, I believe PureQuestion said that Tier Shift Ubers is going to eventually happen. I still think that we can suspect some Ubers in the regular Tier Shift meta, though, as there are an increased number of ways to deal with certain threats. IMO, Tornadus-T and Excadrill would end up being rather tame if they came back, and wouldn't centralize this meta to the same extent as they did to OU.
  19. BlankZero

    BlankZero
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    I'd like to introduce you to something that will threaten every single team without a backup Ice Shard or bulky as crap HP Ice user.


    Jumpluff
    90 HP / 70 Atk / 85 Def / 70 SpAtk / 100 SpDef / 125 Spe
    [​IMG]
    Like A Boss

    Jumpluff @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Seed Bomb
    - Sleep Powder
    - Swords Dance

    Jumpluff is pretty ridiculous in this metagame. It can sleep just about anything, gets a free SD up and starts destroying things. Even without sun up, it outspeeds and kills just about everything, barring Heatran, Zapdos, Thundurus, and a few other bulky Steel types. It doesn't need SR support, but it certainly turns those chances of OHKOs into guarantees. It partners well with Ninetales for Sun Support, and with Heatran to take theFire and Ice attacks. Heal Bell support is important in case you catch Static or something manages to live an attack and TWave or Toxic. Rapid Spin helps immensely too to remove Rocks from your side of the field. It's main downside is that if it doesn't get up an SD or even 2, it is kinda terrible, and loses to faster Mons that can score a SE hit, like Aerodactyl. It's also pretty damn frail, thought it can live a max SpAtk Modest SF non-LO Fire Blast from Nidoqueen if it isn't Sunny out.

    Here are some calcs that may show off Jumpluff's (lol) power.

    Calcs Vs. Counters and Weather Starters (open)

    • +2 252+ Atk (custom) Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 354-416 (87.62 - 102.97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 340-402 (88.54 - 104.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock Seed Bomb does the same amount
    • +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Abomasnow: 812-956 (211.45 - 248.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 225-265 (69.87 - 82.29%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 156-185 (51.65 - 61.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • +2 252+ Atk Flying Gem (custom) Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-T: 262-309 (87.62 - 103.34%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Here are some replays as well to show off its Sweeping capabilities.

    Replay Log (open)

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-30512335
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-30526566
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/tiershift-30530564

    I'll add more soon, but I'm restructuring the team. I tend to lose if I can't keep Pluff alive through SR.
  20. jeremy55

    jeremy55

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Any suggestions for some mixed stallbreaker that's strong both in rain and out?

    I was thinking Infernape but he'd be dead weight against rain stall. All my non-hax losses are to pure stall, quite irritating. The #1 ladder player runs a team that would get stomped by Infernape though.
  21. qazwerty99

    qazwerty99

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    58
    A stallbreaker? Have you tried CM Cress?
  22. BlankZero

    BlankZero
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    SubCM Cress with Lefties and Psyshock/Ice Beam or Moonlight on a Sun Team is nigh unbreakable.
  23. qazwerty99

    qazwerty99

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2011
    Messages:
    58
    That's my point. It's really hard for stall to get past
  24. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,548
    Kyurem-B, I use CB but its mixed set can stallbreak too. Whiscash rapes rain stall that doesn't carry Power Whip Ferrothorn. Crawdaunt similarly destroys all, but Ferro.
    Any boosting sweeper should do fine though. You have so many choices such as SD Flame Orb Ursaring that just have sheer amounts of power.
  25. BlankZero

    BlankZero
    is a Tutor

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    How does Crawdaunt not break Ferrothorn?

    252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 237-281 (67.32 - 79.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    And that is with non-Tier Shift stats. Given its RU status, it gets a hefty +10 to all stats. So the calc becomes:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Crawdaunt Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 250-296 (71.02 - 84.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    That's a clean 2HKO, even if Crawdaunt gets Seeded, and Ferro has Lefties.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)