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Discussion in 'OM Archive' started by Tsumugi Kotokobuki, Jul 9, 2013.
That's so mean. Toppers is far better than D Rank :/
Scolipede has to be added to B-Rank. It's the fastest Spiker in the Tier Shift metagame and a strong attck after an Swords Dance boost is awesome. Moost death walls are weak to Megahorn such a Uxie, and Cresselia, and Bug is a great typing in Tier Shift do do the lack of resists the commonly boosted 'mons use. If it has to deal with those stupid Heatran for example it always has nice coverage.
I never understood the hype surrounding Top. I've played both Tier Shift and UU for a long time, and it's never been a threat to me even if my teams weren't particularly prepared for it. It just doesn't have a strong enough offensive presence to distinguish it from other, better Rapid Spinners. The most it can do to threaten most spinblockers is...Toxic. <.<
I'm trying to imagine what a chuckling Ferrothorn sounds like.
Glad it was a typo (or whatever mistyping the entire word is called; I do it all the time, I wonder if there's a term for that exact phenomenon). I mean, you're allowed to think whatever you want about bests and worsts, but Ferrothorn is just amazing.
I still don't think Scolipede is THAT fantastic, as U-turn has already lowered the viability of bug-weak pokemon (not saying they don't exist, but they sure aren't as prevalent as they used to be). Yes, it's strong and fills a nice niche if you want a powerful poke who can spike quickly, but given how great Ferro is in this meta and how many other, stronger pokemon are out there with better STAB coverage or less weakness to hazards, it remains a niche.
Well, it gets Foresight and Suckerpunch. Intimidate is always nice, although I am Doubles Biased a bit. It resists Stealth Rock, which is a bonus. It's defensively good, although 55 base HP isn't great.
I'm not saying it's S Rank, more like B-C rank, since its main niche is unblockable Spin, which in a metagame where Sun is truly a force to behold, is really great, as it lets Jumpluff, Ninetales, etc. come in more times or for free.
Here's a replay for you displaying its utility.
I don't know why the Cofagrigous is level 34 though. That wasn't something I noticed til I watched the replay.
For some weird
For some weird reason I can't get Showdown replays to work for the life of me. Hitting the play button causes them to go to the very end of the of the replay, it's very weird. Your replays are generally going to fall on deaf ears, the Whiscash one worked for me though.
Anyways, Hitmontop is just really niche. Teams that can justify using Hitmontop have to need
A Fighting Type
all on one team slot. If you need any two of the three, or any one of the three there's better choices. Because of this Hitmontop is niche enough to see use on very very few teams. This basically defines D-Rank to me. Usually you'll have a better choice, but Hitmontop has a small niche that saves him from uselessness.
Oh sorry, I was typing wrong, I meant to put the fastest spiker not the best, fixed
Top also gets Priority, Intimidate or Technician, and RESISTS Stealth Rock.
Why wouldn't you want a spinner who resists rocks?
D Rank = Not very effective in this Metagame
C Rank = Has crippling flaws, or is very outclassed, or has trouble executing its strategy.
B Rank = Is still threatening, but is generally outclassed.
Hitmontop is effective. It's not a super awesome sweeper, and it's not the bulkiest ever, but it does its job effectively every time and provides support, even though it may be outclassed.
When I think D Rank, I think Charizard in OU. B Rank to me is more like Donphan. It has a niche, but usually is outclassed by another Mon.
Hitmontop is just one of those Pokes that's much better on paper than it is in practice. Yes, it has solid bulk, typing, and access to Rapid Spin, but has no reliable recovery, mediocre offensive stats and coverage; and no method of threatening most ghosts right off the bat. It's generally just outclassed by Rapid Spinners and Fighting types alike.
Added Gothorita to B-Rank.
Sucker Punch? Foresight?
I wonder if we should perhaps add Ubers into the mix with a stat decrease? Say, see which Ubers are balanced, which are useable and which are still broken if all Ubers receive a -10 stat decrease? Just to see how it would affect the metagame with "more balanced" Uber Pokemon.
I would imagine Kyogre, Palkia Kyurem-W and possibly Deoxys-A and Giratina would still be broken, but most Ubers would actually not be that bad. Think about the following:
- Mewtwo with a -10 stat decrease just becomes Alakazam with a better movepool and marginally higher special attack, but no magic guard.
- Arceus' stat become straight 110's, only barely above that of Mew / Victni / Shaymin.
- Darkrai's stat generally become pathetic or only average, with base 125 special attack, 115 speed (lower than about a third of the current tier Shift meta) and absolutely dreadful 60/80/80 defenses.
- Manaphy's become straight 90's, basically making it pathetic even with Tail Glow.
- Deoxys-D would have 40/150/150 defenses, basically on par with Dusknoir when you consider the pure psychic typing - and considerably less than the stat of the boosted Cresselia - as well as meager base 80 speed.
- Ho-oh, on top of its massive SR weakness, would now only have 120/100/80 offenses, making it slow and basically no stronger than the average OU attacker is now; not to mention its weakness in Rain. Its new 96/80/144 defenses and common weaknesses mean its physical bulk is lower than mediocre and its special bulk is nowhere near as effective as it is in the current Ubers environment.
- Genesect would still be a threat, but its lower 110/110/89 offenses and awful 61/85/85 defenses would make it significantly easier to handle, especially considering the higher stats of the majority of common Tier Shift Pokemon.
If most things still seem a bit too hard to handle, maybe a -15 stat decrease to the Ubers would balance them. I think it should at least be considered.
Foresight has never threatened any of my teams (even if they are loaded with hazard setters) because it's way too slow. If Top dares to Foresight my Ghost, I just burn it, reset hazards, and watch it eventually die to residual damage. Zero attack investment Sucker Punch does hardly anything to bulkier Ghosts, and because it only works if the Ghosts attack Hitmontop, it is easy to play around.
Top is really only useful on heavy stall teams, where Chansey can heal its status and pass it Wishes, but even then, there are other Rapid Spinners that do the job better.
Who the heck is running 0 atk Top? Other than awful people I mean? 252 HP/252 Atk is a good standard set, although I run like 12-16 speed in Doubles to creep the 8 speed Tops.
It's a ton better than D rank is all I'm saying. C rank would be fine for it, though it can technically qualify for B rank.
Even Max Atk Sucker Punch doesn't do enough damage to most Ghosts, especially if it gets lolburned. Not to mention, it's still incredibly easy to play around (i.e. setting hazards or spamming status while Himtontop hopelessly tries to Sucker Punch). I find that it generally loses the fight against tough hazard stacking teams, while I can't say the same thing about Tentacruel or Starmie, especially when they are in the hands of a good player.
To each their own I suppose. However, unless you're packing 2 spin blockers, Top is going to do its job, and then switch out more than likely. Relying on Top to do damage outside of a Gem CC (not very viable in Singles) is silliness, but using it as a utilitymon is very viable. I'll get some more replays for you to prove my point though if you don't believe me.
Landorus-I has been officially removed from the list as he is now an Uber pokemon.
I have seen some earlier comments on Charizard and it's D rank position. I definately agree with
Definitely worthy of at least C rank, though I would actually say that it is B rank worthy, considering how frickin powerful it is in the sun. I know that counter arguments include the fact that it is one of the most suicidal attackers in the metagame since it takes like 62.5% damage from switching in when rocks are on the field, but to wreck extreme damage, it really only needs spin support + sun support. It also has amazing offensive and defensive synergy with the powerful Jumpluff, which can sweep teems clean if it comes in on a lured bulky water type (from Charizard). Besides that, the only real water type that switches safely into Specs Charizard in sun is Politoed because of Drizzle.
Nothing can reliably take 2 Choice Specs Fire Blasts in the sun, meaning that it can easily properly "fulfill a given offensive niche"
Don't forget that Adamant Jumpluff gets outsped by timid Lati@s by exactly 1 point outside of sun. Found that out the hard way.
And even then, I've been able to take down toed with a Specs Air Slash on the switch-in, and another.
I've also faced Jellicent with it before and it almost always takes out half it's health.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent in sun: 307-362 (76.17 - 89.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent in sun: 229-270 (56.68 - 66.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And even blobs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 373-441 (57.2 - 67.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey in sun: 409-483 (58.09 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not only all this, but unlike Moltres, it actually has better coverage and isn't limited to Fire Blast or Hurricane.
I think Charizard is definitely worth a higher level than D-Rank, at least. In no way is it "not very effective". If the SR weakness would make it so, then the same would apply to Moltres who's in A-Rank.
Firstly, saying that Charizard "only" needs Spin and Sun support is a gross misstatement. Spin and Sun support is already quite a bit of support. This requires at least two separate pokemon to support Charizard, one of which is attempting to keep the hardest weather in the game to maintain up so Zard can safely switch in. Roughly 1/5th of the games you play will be against a rain team. This means that in about 1/5 of the games you play Charizard will do NOTHING for you. Too use Charizard against a rain team you need to have killed Politoed, and if you have done that you've essentially already won the game. Furthermore, Charizard needs some kind of additional team support to kill pokemon like Heatran (especially BalloonTran) who completely wall him out, forcing him to switch out. When Charizard can only switch in with rocks up twice (while also being worn down by Solar Power) this is a huge problem. Because of this Charizard essentially needs support from a third team member who can handle both Politoed and Heatran easily.
Charizard, even outside of Stealth Rocks, really struggles to get a safe switch in. 93/93/100 defenses aren't as great as they sound in a meta with as strong of attackers as ours, especially when factoring in the -12.5% HP at the end of the turn. He has numerous weaknesses to common attacking types including Water. Rock, and Electric. This is further accented by the specs set having no recovery what so ever. Finally, base 115 speed still leaves him prone to being forced out by scarfed revenge killers. Considering charizard has as much trouble switching in as he does this is a big problem for the obese lizard.
The problem with Charizard is that the double SR weakness + constant Solar Power recoil do not mesh well at all. The high residual damage generally prevents him from living long enough to do enough damage to the opposing team; at best, he kills one thing and proceeds to get revenge killed. His only real use is to be a glass cannon on some sort of offensive sun team, but he's horrible from a synergy perspective and they generally have more important roles to fill.
He is just another case of "looks good on paper, but fails in practice". Pass.
Guys. The description for D rank is "Pokemon who are simply not effective in the current metagame". If it can 2HKO the entire tier with correct prediction, then how the fuck can you call it uneffective in the metagame.
effective given the right support = 2HKOs the entire tier with sun support and kind of requires a spinner.
crippling flaws = weakness to rocks, rain teams.
I think it fits C rank much better than D
How in god's hell is Tangrowth E-Rank while Tangela is A?
Apart from it being complete bullcrap to place Tangrowth in E-Rank I think it's debatable wether Tangela is actually better than Tangrowth because Tangrowth got Leftovers over Eviolite.
Let's look at stats:
Tangrowth still got better defenses without Eviolite and dont forget it's high HP Stat. Tangela is also far more crippled by Knock Off and Trick (very common in TS) than Tangrowth is. They both handle the same threats and I dont see many threats that Tangela handles which Tangrowth cant.
And dont forget Tangrowth actually has a (good and overlooked) niche as a Chlorophyll sweeper in TS (115 Atk and 125 SpA!). It already had that niche in regular OU, yet small, but in TS it has improved a lot. This chlorophyll sweeper can take a hit thanks to it's good bulk, even when uninvested and then abuse it's great movepool to be a mixed sweeper with Growth. Tangrowth gets Leaf Storm/Solarbeam, Giga Drain, Power Whip, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb and Hidden Powers. Because of it's bulk it doesnt actually need Sleep Powder like other Chlorophyll sweepers to function. Most Chlorophyll Sweepers have problems with Heatran which Tangrowth doesnt, and the few ones that are able to cover Heatran are most of the time walled by Ferrothorn which is not a problem for Tangrowth, because even if it doesnt run a SE move against Thorn it can take Gyro Balls unlike the other members of the Chloromob.
So even if you think Tangela outclasses Tangrowth as a physically defensive mon, then you might wanna give the chlorophyll sweeper set a try on a good sun team and come back to tell me it's E Rank material.
Give some more credit to the real Mr. Spaghetti-O.
Blissey in E-Rank is a mystery to me as well. Sure there are a lot of new options for a special wall now but Blissey still handles special sweepers very well enough to be put in B or C Rank.
Moltres also has that double SR weakness and it's A Rank. Sure Hurricane gives it an edge. But Charizard has a far better movepool than Moltres outside of Hurricane. Even with Hurricane, Moltres needs spin support, and so does Charizard. Damage input from Specs set is quite high even outside of Sun and Air Slash does considerable damage to Politoed, even.
Charizard has Focus Blast which I'm pretty sure will do good enough damage to Tran under sun.
Maybe it has flaws but it is no way "not very effective". If needing support means he is D rank, then Moltres should be ranked lower as well as it also needs spin support from a teammate and is also walled by Heatran unless it carries HP ground, which Charizard can also do but doesn't need cause of Focus Blast.
I also agree with OmgNess about Tangrowth. Tangela is slightly bulkier with eviolite. Keyword: Eviolite. Knock Off, Trick and Switcheroo cripple it completely. It's even slower than Seismitoad who it hits super effectively and can Knock Off its eviolite. Not to say Tangela's bad but Tangrowth shouldn't be that low ranked.