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I have no strong opinion about the suspect (well I do because fuck Chatter, but I haven't played Tier Shift in a while), but the Aegislash comparison isn't really valid. King's Shield isn't what made Aegislash broken. It was just one of the many, many things that made Aegislash so great. If anything related to Aegislash were to be banned, Aegislash is the obvious candidate. Chatot, however, might only be broken because of the move Chatter, which is exclusive to it. When it comes to banning moves in standard metagames, it is widely agreed upon that a move should only be banned if it is broken on all the Pokemon that get it. If you believe Chatter to be broken and Chatot to be otherwise balanced, it makes sense to ban Chatter because it is broken on everything that gets it.
Either way, Chatot is a scourge, and I'm never sad to see its name used in a negative light.
I have no strong opinion about the suspect (well I do because fuck Chatter, but I haven't played Tier Shift in a while), but the Aegislash comparison isn't really valid. King's Shield isn't what made Aegislash broken. It was just one of the many, many things that made Aegislash so great. If anything related to Aegislash were to be banned, Aegislash is the obvious candidate. Chatot, however, might only be broken because of the move Chatter, which is exclusive to it. When it comes to banning moves in standard metagames, it is widely agreed upon that a move should only be banned if it is broken on all the Pokemon that get it. If you believe Chatter to be broken and Chatot to be otherwise balanced, it makes sense to ban Chatter because it is broken on everything that gets it.
Either way, Chatot is a scourge, and I'm never sad to see its name used in a negative light.
I'd like to kindly point out that you are wrong about the aegislash comparison. The reasoning for banning aegislash was
KS forcing so many 50/50s
effectively having 50/150/150/150/150/50 base stats
Neither of these are possible without KS so yes KS is what made it broken. However KS is also the only thing that made it usable because without it it can only access bulk on switchin which would very quickly wear it down.
A variety of things made Aegislash broken. Aegislash probably wouldn't be broken without Shadow Ball either. It probably wouldn't be broken without its killer typing. It probably wouldn't be broken without its ability (which made King's Shield trigger!). The only thing that makes Chatot so good is Chatter, a move that is arguably broken anyways. Yes, Aegislash wouldn't have been broken without King's Shield. Yes, Chatot wouldn't be potentially broken without Chatter. That doesn't make them comparable.
Personally, I'm against the banning of moves in most cases (unless its Stealth Rocks in the BW era because I'd totally be down with that as a sun player from that era) and as a result my two cents are going to be to ban Chatot. Tier Shift allows him to become pretty strong but that aside Chatter is an extremely annoying move to go against and it feels like a confuse ray that always hits and causes damage, as well as going through subs. Its 107 Special Attacker and 106 Speed in TS certainly help the power behind chatter and while its still slower than base 110's mons who are base 105 and below are definitely not going to appreciate seeing this bird (some examples include Victini, Shaymin and Manaphy who all have base 105 all around). That said I wouldn't fret if Chatter was banned exclusively as the move can't be sketched but I just see it as less complicated to ban the bird and be done with it.
Air Cutter would replace Chatter as the Flying STAB and then Boomburst and Heat Wave support it for second STAB and coverage. I wouldn't say it would be unusable; mostly just less annoying.
Supporting a Chatter ban since Chatot's the only user of it and it's a pretty stupid move.
just to clarify, aegislash was definitely viable without kings shield. One set that was becoming pretty popular before it got banned was swords dance jolly life orb aegislash with head smash. It outsped bisharp by 1 point and of course no-one would sucker punch an aegislash with a bisharp. Head smash with speed allowed it to beat some normal counters to the shadow ball set, such as mandibuzz, amoonguss, sdef zapdos, and a few more. it ran sd | shadow sneak | sacred sword | head smash, and it was viable. 4 attacks life orb was also decently common throughout all of xy and ran shadow ball | flash cannon/head smash | sacred sword | shadow sneak. Both of these are viable aegislash sets without kings shield.
Chatter is now banned. The council voted to ban Chatter over Chatot in a vote of 4-1 due to Chatter being very uncompetitive and a general feeling that Chatot is not broken or banworthy. Many pokemon, such as Porygon-Z, have access to just as powerful set-up moves and can hit harder with as much or more coverage. Most of the players commenting in this thread thought that Chatter should be banned instead of Chatot, meaning this is the best choice for everyone. Tagging The Immortal to ban Chatter from Tier Shift
To go with the Feraligatr sets above, you can also use a Special option which I play tested in a single game.
Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 8 Atk / 252 SpA / 248 Spe
Rash Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
While these EVs are probably not optimal, but the unexpected special attacks can dent the opponents physical wall or tank thanks to Feraligatr's now base 94 SpAtt and the prevalence of Rain further boosting the power of its Scald. Aqua Jet is there solely for priority while Scald hurts most things trying to switch in on a Dragon Dance. Ice Beam and Focus Blast act as coverage against grass and steel types and get the Sheer Force Life Orb boost. While this set probably isn't the best set for Feraligatr and I do need to play with it more, its definitely food for thought when considering how much Feraligatr can do now.
Ok, I don't know if it is supposed to work like this or not, but I have tested it multiple times, and Talpr0ne is right.
For those of you who don't trust me, http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-215296432
Both of the pokemon have 252+ speed. If Mega Medicham got +10 everything, then it would have base 110 speed. If it gets +5, it would have 105. Thundurus-Therian gets +5, giving it 106 speed. Thundurus then continues to constantly outspeed mega medicham, proving that it only gets +5. Whether this is supposed to happen or not, I don't know.
This is actually being discussed on the viability thread atm, and I think this needs to be clarified. This could really change the top threats. Pinsir, for example would have a super trollish speed tier at 115 paired with 165 Atk
Alright, so I'm posting about something I've talked about with quite a few people recently and I think really needs to happen: A Pinsirite Suspect Test.
Pinsir was a dominant force already. Even without boosts, it has insanely high attack, great speed, and a stupid good ability in Aerilate. It wasn't a top tier threat before, just because it's old checks remained along with a few new ones, but it was still a dominant force that could take down teams without anything for it.
FAST FORWARD TO FEBRUARY 2014: Pinsir and it's mega stone now get a 5 point boost to each stat, bar HP, which gets +10 (iirc). Bear in mind this is unintentional, and the mega should also get +10 to each stat, if I'm to understand the OP correctly. This essentially flushes any counters down the toilet, and forces every team to run something that can always outspeed and OHKO this monster. The problem with these checks and counters is that the majority of them are part flying, and not hard to wear down with SR.
Some calcs of potential checks and counters:
Thundurus (Therian calcs are the same)
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 186-219 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 72-86 (24 - 28.7%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO
BirdBug wins with Rocks.
Rotom-Fan
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 87-102 (26.1 - 30.6%) -- 22.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Pinsir does Piss, but you're using Rotom-Fan for christ sake. No reliable recovery and an SR weakness make it a shaky mon to use.
Bronzong
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 109-129 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 42.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 90-107 (26.6 - 31.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So Bronzong is the hardest counter to the most common set. However,
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 176-208 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Knock Off is a very relevant option for Mega Pinsir, and since Bronzong has no form of recovery, it essentially makes Pinsir win in all scenarios.
Zapdos
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This is another hard counter, this time with RECOVERY!!! Rocks still don't help, but this is a reliable answer. Aerodactyl
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Aerodactyl: 175-207 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 144-171 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 57-67 (18.3 - 21.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
After rocks, BirdBug always wins
Archeops
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 66-78 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
After rocks, again, BirdBug wins.
Landorus-T
-1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 144-171 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Lando wins, but, as the rest of the counters bar Zapdos, no recovery
From this minor wall of calcs we can see Pinsir has approximately 2 counters, one of which doesn't beat all sets. It can be revenged by Scarfed Electrics, of course, but most cant switch in more than once, and if coming in after it gets a kill, it's obviously already done damage.
BUT WAIT! We haven't factored in Swords Dance yet!
Thundurus
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 370-436 (123.7 - 145.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
No
Rotom-Fan
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 174-204 (52.2 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
No
Bronzong
+2 252+ Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 205-242 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
No
Aerodactyl
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 241-284 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
No
Archeops
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 335-394 (104.3 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
No
Landorus-T
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 325-384 (85 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
No
Quagsire (mentioned here and not above bc Unaware)
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 201-237 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
On a good day, you have a 21.5 Percent chance of being anything but fodder
Clefable
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 246-289 (62.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Proportionally worse actually
So unless I'm overlooking something, +2 Pinsir has approximately 0 switch-ins. This isn't exactly a hard mon to boost with either, as it forces out so much of the metagame out already just with the threat of Aerilate Frustration. It's just stupid good, and with as little as Stealth Rock support it can essentially sweep the entire metagame. It needs to go, or at least be looked at by the council.
Instead of banning Mega Pinsir with +10 boost, why not just keep Mega Pinsir and use the mechanic of +5 boost for all BL megas (except HP)? Mega Pinsir and Mega Medicham will be more balanced this way.
Instead of banning Mega Pinsir with +10 boost, why not just keep Mega Pinsir and use the mechanic of +5 boost for all BL megas (except HP)? Mega Pinsir and Mega Medicham will be more balanced this way.
If it's "just" +5, I think its counters and checks are pretty much the same as OU. Terrakion (also got +5) and Thundurus I still outspeed it, as 110 Speed isn't that fast in Tier Sfift. Also, Thundurus T is BL, so it gets +5 boost, which means it is bulkier than Thundurus I, so it doesn't have the same calc.
Also, Mega Pinsir almost always run Jolly. Adamant means +Speed natured base 100 will outspeed it. Those calcs are all Adamant, which is not very common.
If it is supposed to get +10, I would agree with suspecting it and it would probably be banned. But it isn't programmed to be +10 yet, and I don't know whether it is supposed to be or not. At the moment, it does have a few other pokemon that do as well or better against it than what you listed.
I'll also list some that do somewhat well against the standard jolly set. Some of these would be rendered useless against earthquake, but generally close combat is better coverage. Also not calculating them at +2, since it is about double the amount.
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-231 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 80.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 87-103 (26 - 30.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Stunfisk: 119-141 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 56-66 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 140-166 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 119-141 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 167-197 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 180-213 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 108-128 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 102-120 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 147-174 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 47.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 122-144 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 159-187 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 97-115 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 77-91 (23 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 107-127 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 81.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 102-121 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 56.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 103-122 (26.2 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 229-271 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 206-244 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 166-196 (47 - 55.5%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (worship based burd)
As you probably guessed, the bold ones are the better ones at beating pinsir.
That's not even including things that outspeed and kill, barring scarf landorus-t and manectric.
If it is supposed to get +10, I would agree with suspecting it and it would probably be banned. But it isn't programmed to be +10 yet, and I don't know whether it is supposed to be or not. At the moment, it does have a few other pokemon that do as well or better against it than what you listed.
I'll also list some that do somewhat well against the standard jolly set. Some of these would be rendered useless against earthquake, but generally close combat is better coverage. Also not calculating them at +2, since it is about double the amount.
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-231 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 80.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 87-103 (26 - 30.8%) -- 5.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Stunfisk: 119-141 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 56-66 (16.8 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 140-166 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 119-141 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 167-197 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 180-213 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 108-128 (35.6 - 42.2%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 102-120 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 147-174 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 47.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 122-144 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 159-187 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 97-115 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 77-91 (23 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 107-127 (35.1 - 41.7%) -- 81.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mawile: 102-121 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 56.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 103-122 (26.2 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 229-271 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 206-244 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 148-175 (40.7 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 166-196 (47 - 55.5%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (worship based burd)
As you probably guessed, the bold ones are the better ones at beating pinsir.
That's not even including things that outspeed and kill, barring scarf landorus-t and manectric.
I feel like it needs to be pointed out almost all of those (including one or two of the Bolds!) lose 100% of the time after rocks and an SD. Neither of those are particularly unrealistic conditions, either, as rocks are, well, rocks, and Pinsir forces out quite a bit even neutrally.
