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Tiers in DP

Discussion in 'Pokémon Policy' started by Surgo, Jun 8, 2007.

  1. Surgo

    Surgo goes to eleven
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    It's about that time, isn't it? The site is coming up soon and at this point we have a very good picture of what's Uber and what's OU, and we should get the debates on that out of the way sooner rather than later.

    Most ubers are fairly obvious. There's some things that aren't like Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, where there was serious talk about straight-up banning all events anyway that I completely agree with, and Deoxys-E who just sucks but would fall under the aforementioned event ban anyway. Shit like Mewtwo has no argument.

    In the same vein, it's obvious that things like Swampert and Garchomp are OU.

    For the rest of the tiers, it would be impossible at this point to enumerate things like NU, UU, and BL. That would take serious theorycraft or testing to find the cutoff point between those, so it's probably just best for now to lump everything else into the "not OU [enough]" category to be sorted out later.

    So, thoughts on starting this now?
  2. Nate

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    It usually takes a while after the establishment of a metagame for people to be seriously interested in UU anyways, so I don't see any issue with lumping all non-standards together for a while. Once the game has been played for a while, we'll have a much better sense for where everything belongs.
  3. Aeolus

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    The only distiction that needs to be made at this point is between uber and OU. Two groups should created: "Banned" being the uber tier and "Allowed" being everything else. After Competitor has been out for a month or two, we can refine the "Allowed" category into our neat little NU, UU, BL, OU sub-categories.
  4. Sonuis

    Sonuis Doofenshmirtz Evil Incorporated!
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    If you really want to start a tier list, start it at least in July. That's after the first Smogon Wi-Fi tournament. There should be some action and variety in it, no?
  5. Surgo

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    Why would having a tier list make the action and variety any different? People already know what the best DP pokemon of the current day are, we've been doing the theorycraft thing for months.
  6. Misty

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    The only tier distinction that makes a difference at this point, as Aeolus said, is uber/non-uber. I guess that means we need to make a call on the "borderline" cases - unfortunately, we've proven time and time again that consensus is impossible...
  7. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    I disagree that some Pokemon are obvious. The purpose of the uber tier is to ban unbalanced Pokemon. Things like RBY Mewtwo, for instance, fall into this unbalancing category. However, looking at the sheer number of Pokemon being considered for banning, it seems to me that they just might make a balanced tier, because they'd balance each other out. A lot of the argument in favor of banning them is that people want to keep using some of the same Pokemon that were strong in ADV.

    Starting out with a ban list and slowly allowing one, and then deciding if it's unbalanced simply will not work. Imagine this scenario in ADV. Everything in the OU tier is added to ubers, so UU is the "OU". We decide to check if Salamence is unbalanced, so we allow it in UU. It kills everything, and thus remains banned. Then we check if Milotic and Suicune are unbalanced. We allow them, and they simply don't die. They remain banned. Then we allow Heracross, and decide Megahorn is just too powerful in that environment, so Heracross remains banned. Few Pokemon have the offenses to get through Blissey, ban that, Raikou can set up on most anything, and anything capable of killing it is slower and is OHKOed.

    See the problem? By checking one at a time, you are banning a huge list of potential counters, and then you check those counters, but they, too, have many of their counters banned.

    This is why I still stand firmly in favor of not starting out with blanket bans because of preconceived ADV notions. That would be like keeping Golem out of ADV UU because it was common in RBY.
  8. Misty

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    You've missed something with your post, though - we still have uber battles. If all the ubers combined balance each other out (which, according to Surgo, is not looking likely), then great, we've got a good uber metagame to play.
  9. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    But OU is the metagame that will be played most often, by the very definition of the tier. This is especially important because the Smogon Tour is always OU. If some Pokemon are unbalanced--for instance, Rayquaza is looking to be--then you don't have a balanced metagame there, but you have a bunch of potentially balanced Pokemon who are incapable of being used.

    I am in no way saying we keep everything unbanned, but I am saying don't start with bans. If something is unbalanced, you ban it then. You would move this to the actual uber tier, which was originally supposed to be a ban tier for overpowering Pokemon.
  10. Misty

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    The way I see it, even if we get some semblance of balance out of certain ubers and a few specialized Pokemon like Blissey, the result will be the most stale metagame this side of RBY - I really think it is smarter to go with the more "accepted" metagame that offers far more potential for diversity while being conservative with bans. I mean, look at it this way - Battle Tower (and the Frontier too) ban most of the things we do. Game Freak themselves have recognized that certain Pokemon are simply unbalanced and should be kicked out of "competitive" play.
  11. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    But then the official Nintendo tournaments only ban event-only Pokemon.
  12. Misty

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    Nintendo tournaments have no concept of "balance". Simple as that.
  13. DM

    DM Ce soir, on va danser.
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    I kinda agree with Obi here. It reminds me of all the states that still have sodomy laws in the books; the laws just stayed there because they haven't bothered to revisit them yet. There's no sense in leaving ubers from a previous generation banned to start this one, because they might very well fall back into general play.
  14. Surgo

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    Starting with a clean slate, then, what is obviously bannable? Here, I'll start.

    * I don't think anyone denies the ridiculousness of Arceus. Uber.
    * Lugia is what makes any non-uber sweeper pointless in uber play. Wall of the worlds. Uber.
    * Giratina basically does the same thing Lugia does. Trades Roost/Recover for better offensive capabilites. Uber.
    * I think our numerous discussions on Rayquaza in chat lately have shown this thing to be Uber.
    * When you need extremely defensive Arceus or extremely defensive Latias to stop Deoxys-F, you know its Uber.

    Some other things I think are uber but have previously uber counters:
    * Kyogre runs over just about anything, including Blissey, and is only really stopped by Soul Dew Latis.
    * Soul Dew Latis run over most things, though they have physical weaknesses. I'm not really clear on the mechanics of how Blissey stops them, if she stops them.
    * Mewtwo is frail but can set up on most non-ubers, including Blissey.
  15. Misty

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    You're still looking at Mewtwo, Mew, Ho-oh, Groudon, Kyogre, Latios, Latias, Deoxys, Deoxys-L, Dialga, Palkia, and Darkrai. Aside from Blissey and a handful of the 600 club, what could compete with that? People bitch about Tyranitar, but at least it's moderately slow and most non-ubers can get in a good hit on it. I'd probably end up making a team of 4-5 of the above list + Blissey, and I'm sure most others would too. Even if it ends up being "balanced", it still is going to be incredibly dull...
  16. Glen

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    tbh i think that with the huge number of changes d/p has offered, un soul-dewed (dude lol) latis should be tested a fair amount, i dont think theyre worthy of being uber anymore.

    i think jirachi and celebi are still ok, but i havent battled online much. what do you guys think about manaphy? i havent seen it in action but it seems kinda scary in theory.
  17. Misty

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    Even without Soul Dew, Latis are scary as hell now... even ignoring the potential destructive power of Draco Meteor, which would pretty much make Blissey a necessity, Dragon Pulse has been added to their arsenal, giving them even more damage potential than before.
  18. Nate

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    @Surgo:

    The whole notion that theorycraft prepares us to make a tier list is utterly wrong. The same thing was thought before the release of 200, only to have the metagame completely knocked upside down by a fucking zigzagoon. I don't remember any concrete examples from 386, but making a more in depth tier list than simply "uber" and "not-uber" is going to have serious issues.
  19. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    In a way, the different plated Arceus are similar to the different Deoxys forms. Arceus has many typings, Deoxys has different stats. You can tell any of them apart by sight alone. So when people talk about how dangerous Arceus is, they act like it can be Dark, Bug, Steel, Ghost, Normal, Ice, and Fighting all at once. I do admit that it, along with Rayquaza, are the most likely for an uber ban, but I can't say for sure. Also Tyranitar, thanks to Physical Crunch and 50% boost from Sand Stream, is looking to be a great counter to Lati@s, Lugia, Mewtwo, Mew, and any other Psychic uber. Of course, some of them can smack it with Focus Punch or Grass Knot, but Grass Knot won't OHKO thanks again to that SDef boost.

    I could see Salamence and Rayquaza both getting use, just because Salamence has a bit more Speed, which is important on a Choice Specs or Choice Band set, because Salamence can actually outspeed Modest Lati@s, unlike Rayquaza. The lower SAtk really reduces the chances of this happening, but Speed is important.

    Blissey, Snorlax, and Celebi all can function as special walls, depending on what you're trying to wall. Snorlax is obviously the worst, but it can setup with Rest, Sleep Talk, Curse, Return or some such set with 252 SDef Careful. The rarity of Fire moves on Groudon means Celebi can usually block him, especially with the HP Bug threat removed for the much weaker Shadow Claw and Stone Edge.

    Jirachi can set up on Lati@s, possibly Darkrai (I have no idea), defensive Kyogre (or, with some clever Light Screen / other way of getting a few extra turns, any Kyogre), and a few of the walls.

    Even Smeargle and Shedinja get some potential use. I am actually considering Cloyster with Toxic Spikes, Ice Beam, Rapid Spin, filler + Shedinja.
  20. Glen

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    id say blissey is damn-near a necesisity now, as nothing else can really switch into specsmence. but i completely forgot about draco meteor, that does make them kinda ridiculous.
  21. Surgo

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    @Nate:

    I wasn't suggesting a tier list beyond "uber" and "non-uber", except for maybe "OU" and "not OU enough". Even that isn't necessarily complete, but can anyone seriously suggest that Swampert and Garchomp are not going to be OU? That isn't even theorycraft either, that's experience from plenty of wifi battling.


    I'll put a few more thoughts on what to send to ubers later tonight.
  22. Hipmonlee

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    I really dont see the point in discussing uu, so just regarding Obis points on ubers..

    I think while theorycraft isnt perfect, it is a reasonable guide.. And I dont see anything in Ubers to suggest it will be anything like as ballanced as a metagame based roughly on what was legal in RS.

    Firstly there are only 10 pokemon with stat totals about 600 (not counting Slaking and Regigigas), 1 has 720 stat total, 7 have 680 and 2 have 670. Then it is a >10% drop to the base 600s. If you started counting at the base 600s then there are 14 of those, 12 base 580s and then within a 10% range there are 40+ pokemon.

    Ok so base stats arent everything, but on the other hand, ubers generally have better movepools, traits, typings and stat distributions. Which actually is everything.

    And even if we make a standard ruleset that bans ubers, people will play ubers anyway, just like they did in RS. And if it turns out that Ubers is better, I am pretty sure it will catch on!

    I am all for discussing what needs banning though, but most people seem to disagree with me.

    Have a nice day.
  23. david stone

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    If the ADV ubers really are unbalanced, then this will be obvious after a few months of play, and in the end, you will have the same game as if they began banned. If the ADV ubers really are balanced with some of the new Pokemon, then this will possibly never be discovered, and even if it is, there will be even more resistance to changing. The lack of people who would play that metagame means that it will progress slower, so it will take longer to find out if it really is balanced, people will join with little experience and get swept and just claim "oh ubers is unbalanced an all about offense etc. etc. blah blah".
  24. Surgo

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    I see the merit in Obi's point, and thus back on to things that are broken:

    * Groudon -- if Lugia and Giratina get packed away to ubers, there's nothing left to stop this. I don't see how you can not send Lugia and Giratina away to ubers thanks to their ridiculous walling capacity, shutting down virtually every non-uber sweeper.

    Debatably broken:
    * Ho-Oh -- blah blah 50% chance of shutting down a ton of its counters stats out the wazoo etc., I'll gladly leave this one up to other people.
    * Deoxys-L -- it's kind of a lesser Lugia with fewer weaknesses that can do things like spike and knock off.


    Other people can feel free to argue about the others and the legend 600ers etc., please do so.
  25. Hipmonlee

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    Ok, let me rephrase my point: The DP ubers are broken.

    People will play uber matches regardless, and even if it turns out that in some way they arent entirely broken, people will play non-uber battles as well..

    And I think in general the community will be resistant to change no matter what rules we settle on, so in my opinion we should try to settle on what we believe is the best ruleset first.

    If there is enough doubt, then err on the side of more inclusiveness..

    Have a nice day

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