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Tipping the Scales!!! (A Dream World OU RMT peaked #7 on Ladder)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by casey90, Dec 15, 2010.

  1. casey90

    casey90

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    This has been far and away the most effective team I’d ever created. Boasting a strong combination of offense and defense, I’ve climbed the smogon dream world ladder peaking at the #7 slot with a CRE of 1350. The idea of the team started when I was browsing over the new abilities of pokemon and came across Politoed, with the brand new (and awesome) Drizzle ability. I’d never really like stall or hyper offense so they were both out, however I still wanted to capitalise on the rain, so balance it is! Now seeing as I don’t like writing lengthy team introductions let’s get onto the team members themselves.......

    (kudos to google for sprites)

    [​IMG]
    Politoed@ Choice Scarf
    Timid Nature (+Spe -Att)
    Ability: Drizzle
    252 Sp. Att., 252 Speed 4 Def.
    ~Surf
    ~Hydro Pump
    ~Ice Beam
    ~Focus Blast

    This is the first and by far most important member of my team. Scarf Politoed is an amazing revenge killer and damn near sweeper of it’s own. It obviously is needed to get the rain up but I found that bulky versions of politoed is just dead weight as a bulky water, it lacks stats and recovery (which if it had one or the other might make it more worthwhile). So instead I needed it to make it’s mark offensively. Which was a ridiculous idea at first given it’s lack of setup moves and again, rather “meh” stats. I also had the conundrum that I needed it to be able to come back when needed to replenish the rain. I was left with two options, specs or scarf. I know from experience that specs water attacks from Politoad hit obnoxiously hard, but it takes either speed or bulk to make a good specs user, and given the importance of politoed on the team, I don’t want it to sacrifice itself to fire off one attack (however powerful it may be). So I had to go with scarf, and I’ll tell you, this is by far his best set. It can revenge kill so many things it’ll make you cry, any weather abusers (non rain mind you) are easily revenged with him, and what’s better is that nobody seems to expects him to be scarfed, so they love to leave in Landlos, Doryuuzu, Tyranitar, Gliscor etc. It also retains utility against dozens of other things such as skymin and darkrai (provided no sub), his Hydro pump even does 40% to Latios, for a resisted attack that’s pretty beast if you ask me. Now the moves themselves, I run Surf because it’s a reliable stab attack with perfect accuracy and good power in rain. It’s my go to attack for revenging when I don’t need to power of Hydro pump (and it’s shaky accuracy). I run Hydro Pump as well because there are plenty of situations where I need it’s power to overcome the opposition, it’s accuracy is a turn off at times, but it merits it’s own use. I run ice beam for the coverage it provides against dragons and skymin, nothing to say here, probably the least used attack. Finally we have Focus Blast, the infamous attack that so many things need for coverage (my condolances to gengar, rankurusu, darkrai and alakazam). I use this for only two things, Nattorei, and tyranitar switch ins. outside of that I avoid this dreadful attack like the plague.

    [​IMG]
    Nattorei@Leftovers
    Careful Nature (+ Sp. Def. - Sp. Att)
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    252 HP, 80 Def, 176 SP. Def
    ~Power Whip
    ~Spikes/Stealth Rock
    ~Leech seed
    ~Thunder Wave/Gyro Ball

    The first of two hazard layers, Nattorei lives up to the hype that people have given him since the advent of B/W. It’s typing grants many awesome resistances that are complimented by rain awesomely. In that his fire weakness is lessened and the overall grass and electric weaknesses of the team are eased by his presence. I went for a more mixed defensive capability to capitalise on it’s slew of resists from many sweepers on both sides. The Ev’s and nature produce 352 HP (leftovers number) 318 defense (to capitalise on resists and iron barbs) and 343 special defense (again, awesome resists). Being that it’s the only steel type on the team its role is an important one, to sponge powerful dragon attacks, I’ll admit the resists to electric and grass have saved my butt a few times too. Now even in the rain, his biggest problem remains shandera, who can drop him with overheat in the rain. I used to run shed shell to mitigate this but the lack of leftovers recovery hurt me more often than the shed shell helped. when shandera is on the opponents team (thank you team preview) I try to play very safe with him, making no blind double switches and not staying in to see if he’ll appear. My best luck so far has been to lure that candle out with roobushin and crush him with payback. At which point Nattorei is free to be a thorn in my opponents side again (word-play high five!). One of the things I like so much is how well he pairs with Zapdos and Tentacruel, the three of them can tank so much it’s ridiculous, and they support eachother so well on top of that. Now the moveset has changed once or twice, and each time I wish to have all the moves on one set. I have come to no true conclusions (and seeing as this is a team retirement it’ll have to reamain a mystery), but I’ll share what I’ve found anyway. Power Whip is an awesome move, 120 BP and stab is what all the cool kids are doing this year, to top it off it gets good PP. My main problem with it is Nattorei loses the oppurtunity to beat on grass types, which is a shame when it’s (sometimes) my only attacking option. Spikes and stealth rock have gone back and forth, Stealth rock is nice because consistent damage and one turn setup often proves greater benefits than spikes, however when I do get to stack multiple layers of spikes, The damage differences really add up. If I run SR I run GB with it so that way I never have nattorei just sitting around on his butt. Leech Seed is next on the line for just being a great move in general, besides lefties it’s his only means of recovery (and passive damage is perty cool too). A move I cannot do without. The final slot has had both Thunder Wave and Gyro Ball in it. Thunder Wave has proven itself due to the fact that most of my team has relatively medium speeds, however it sometimes clashes with toxic. Gyro Ball allows me a second STAB with high power (I decrease speed IV’s to 0 and change nature to sassy when I do) that allows me to combat grass types such as Jaroda and Skymin, nothing else to say there. Overall Nattorei is an often times essential team member and is irreplacable.

    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel@Leftovers
    Calm Nature (+Sp. Def -Att)
    Ability: Rain Dish
    204 HP, 252 Def., 52 Sp. Def.
    ~Boil Over
    ~Toxic Spikes
    ~Rapid Spin
    ~Protect

    Ohhh Tentacruel, you’re so awesome, I wouldn’t dare change you. This thing in the rain is friggin awesome. It isnt weak to grass which is great, it absorbs Toxic Spikes, lays my own out, rapid spins away hazards, puts the hurtin on with double stab boil over and stalls poison/burn damage with protect. I use rain dish because it’s a rain team, why not? Seriously though 12.5% recovery is pretty awesome given it’s great resists and bulk, coupled with protect it actually allows him to stall a long time. All this is made better with the emphasis on toxic damage. For this slot it was a toss up between Tentacruel and Starmie, starmie boasted higher offense and speed (Thunder too) with similar resists, recover, and natural cure. What Starmie lacks however is an automatic TS absorbtion, overall bulk, and the ability to lay out toxic spikes of it’s own. The loss of recover hurts a bit I’ll admit though. The main job of tenta is toxic spikes, RS is secondary. I’ve heard people tell me that this pokemon is horribly walled by burungeru and set up on by Nattorei, however contrary to that statement, those two are so horribly beaten by this set it’s not even funny, burungeru is toxic spikes fodder while nattorei is just waiting for a burn to happen, at which point it’s setup fodder for the rest of the team. All I have to do is outstall burungeru with my awesome toxic spikes then I get the spin off. Now the moves themselves. As previously stated Toxic Spikes were the reason I chose Tentacruel over starmie. They allow me to stall so many things in this metagame, especially combined with my next move. Protect comes second in usefullness, the Leftovers + Rain Dish recovery combo is all the more awesome with protect, and having so many things poisoned, the free turns are a huge boon. Rapid Spin is great support to a Balance team that loves switching so much. The best part is every spin blocker is pwn’d by this set and my team, so I almost always get to spin. Boil Over is the STAB of choice, boasting great power in rain as well as the burn rate (which is one way to beat nattorei, the bane of rain teams). As said in the Nattorei section, tentacruel is amazing to the stalling core of the team and an invaluable member.

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos@Leftovers
    Bold Nature (+ Def -Att)
    Ability: Lightning Rod
    252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Sp. Def
    ~Roar/Hidden Power (Water)
    ~Thunder
    ~Toxic
    ~Roost

    Well what can I say about defensive Zapdos that hasn’t been said before? Nothing really, most people here will already know how awesome he is, but for the sake of the thunderbird, I’ll share my thoughts anyway. Firstly, Zapdos has gotten only a few new buffs this gen, but the ones it gained only serve to make him much more powerful. First, I chose Lightning Rod because it’s a rain team, therefore I’m gauranteed (spelling?) to have a problem with electric attacks, totalling in at three electric weaknesses on the team, something to absorb these attacks is more than necessary, and not only does zapdos absorb these attacks but they give him a huge boost in power. Speaking of power boosts, thanks to the magical frog, I get to run thunder instead of thunderbolt, this combined with a lightningrod boost allows him to hit harder than an offensive LO Zappy, that’s pretty awesome for a wall. The last advantage Is an added Fire resist, the added damage from water attacks isn’t so bad considering his bulk and ability to crush water types with thunder. The original reason Zapdos was chosen was because he could combat the Grass and Electric attacks that plagued my team, (which helps take some heat off of Nattorei) He also helped counter Roobushin, Breloom, Manaphy, Skymin, and countless other things. Zapdos was clearly a shoe in for the team given all these advantages. To top it all off, I have found nothing that could do it’s specific job better. Alright, now the moveset, it’s not really that original I know, but it gets the job done. Thunder for POWAAHHHH and STAB, it just does SOOOOO much damage it makes it hard for most things to really set up on it, especially after a lightningrod boost. The next move was chosen, and then changed back and forth a few times. I like roar because it racks up entry hazard damage and scares out a potential threat, I change this because there’s times when all I can do is scare them out, and still have no surefire way to deal with them later. I’ve used HP Water to decent success, it gives no coverage to grass types, but hits ground typed hard in the rain, gaining pseudo STAB from the weather. I’ve also used HP ICE to good success, granting better coverage but less power, I like all three options, it just depends on my mood. Toxic comes next, I’ve been told how redundant it is with toxic spikes and all the other statuses I’ve thrown around, but let me tell you, this has saved me lot’s of grief, it lets me hit something (like a levitator) then know I can stall them out throughout the course of the match, letting me breathe a sigh of relief. That and it’s not wise to always completely rely on the fact that toxic spikes might not always be on the field. Roost finally is just Roost, recovery on a wall is just the bees knees, it is a mixed bag however, I lose some resistances (weaknesses too). I’d honestly prefer recover, but that’s just not happening so I’ll deal with it.

    [​IMG]
    Roopushin@Leftovers
    Adamant Nature (+Att -Sp. Att.)
    Ability: Guts
    196 HP, 88 Att., 224 Sp. Def.
    ~Bulk Up
    ~Mach Punch
    ~Drain Punch
    ~Payback

    Alright, now onto the wildcard member of the team, Roopushin’s only benefit from the rain is a sweet fire resistance, which he uses very well to take anything that jerk Shandera can muster. Now there is a heavy load of Special Defense here (yeah but he can lift it(u c wut i did thar) but it serves a special purpose, it may take away from his overall physical stature but it allows him to survive so many things its not even funny, he takes shanderas overheat in the rain with about 2/3 health to spare and crushes him with payback (and it obviously survives outside of rain as well) in fact this beast is such a tank it can survive LO air slash and psychic (from skymin and latias respectively) and retaliate with yet another payback. After a few bulk ups not puch will take this beast down. Now I’ve talked about what the rain brings him, but what does he do for the team? Well he’s jacked and tan, that’s always a plus, but the real reason he was thrown in was the motherless bastard known at nattorei (I still love mine). whom he counters to hell and back again, he provides some nice bulk as well as useful resists. He also packs fighting priority in Mach Punch which has proven itself worthy this gen. The Icing on the cake is that he can set up on Tyranitar, whom this team also hates (but respects due to mutual pwnageness). The benefits just keep rolling in with that he has (almost) perfect two move coverage and his STAB also doubles as recovery. Status absorbing (and benefit) is the final piece of the puzzle that makes hIm just terrific. The moves are very much standard, Bulk Up is the point of this beast, allowing him to set up and pulverise many many opponents whilst bolstering his defense. Drain Punch provides solid power, reliable recovery, and an interesting mental image for how that would really work. Mach Punch is a secondary satb move with priority, it allows him to finish off weakened opponents before they can recover/get that one last hit in. Payback is the final move, providing the great Dark/Fighting coverage, and allowing me to kill off many things such as Shandera, Burungeru, Latias etc. Roopushin synergises well with Manaphy being that they’re both terrific bulky set up sweepers and the core of my offense.

    [​IMG]
    Manaphy@Leftovers
    Bold Nature (+Def. -Att.)
    Ability: Hydration
    236 HP.,124 Def., 56 Sp. Def., 108 Spe.
    ~Surf
    ~Calm Mind
    ~Toxic
    ~Rest

    Alright, Now onto the final pokemon of the team, and easily the most threatening, this thing has a scary level of power and it’ll quickly and easily crush ALL OPPONENTS! There is not one pokemon in OU right now who can so easily defeat so many things by itself in my opinion (I’ll be sad it’s gone but this thing is so UBER). Manaphy has but a very select few counters in OU, and they are all grass type (or a select group of electrics), everything else loses to this set by virtue of it’s bulk. With the given Ev’s it Has 400 HP (leftovers number) 290 Def. (more physical bulk than Vaporeon) 249 Sp. Def. (bolstered by Calm Mind) and 263 Speed ( to outspeed max base 70’s) The beauties of this pokemon are just neverending. It’s typing allows it to easily run one move coverage in Surf, which gets double stab in rain. It’s ability (hydration) allows it to not only be virtually immune to status and get free rest for as long as there is rain present. Even outside of rain it can set up Calm Minds and threaten with it’s powerful surf. It’s bulk allows it to outstall even a Choice Band Ononokusu Outrage with rest and let it die to poison damage. This combines the stalling power of vaporeon in rain with a powerful setup sweeper. I love switching him in on Burungeru and laughing whilst it’s used as mere set up fodder for me. The grass types are a problem I’ll admit, and if it wasn’t for them this thing would never lose except to very smart players (in which case, more power to you). The moveset Is simple enough, My Stab of Choice is Surf, reliable PP and power make it a welcome addition, however I have dabbled into Boil Over here and there to make use of it’s burn rate to help defeat Nattorei in a 1vs1 engagement. Calm Mind is the point of this set allowing me to build my bulk and power to unstoppable levels before crushing opponents. Toxic is the real beauty of this set, it lets me set up on Burungeru (as I never tire of saying), as well as any other water absorbers or pokemon that are resistant/immune to surf. It also allows me to have a one turn move that does my damage for me, allowing me to alternate between Calm Mind and Rest to be in the most favorable position I can for when their next pokemon comes in. Overall this is probably the most powerful pokemon I’ve used on the team and takes that “jack of all trades” mentality and applies it to “master of all”.

    THREAT LIST!!!!!!!!

    Jaroda - This thing bends my team over and spanks it, (not even in the good way) if toxic spikes are down, I can stall it out, failing that, I have to drain it’s leaf storm PP and hope I have enough strength left to combat it and the rest of their team. Threat Rating 9/10

    Breloom - Ahh Breloom, this thing is such a beast, I improved manaphy’s speed just to get that last hit in with Surf to kill it. I usually pivot to Manaphy to take spore, then to Zapdos to beat him down with Thunder or Toxic Stall, if, toxic spikes are down I can stall it, I can revenge with Toed, Mach punch with Roob, and finish him off with surf from manaphy. Threat Rating 8/10

    Sky Form Shaymin - This is probably the most threatening pokemon for me to face bar none. Nattorei and Zapdos resist his stab but the SP. Def. drops from seed flare make it much too hard to sponge his moves, I’ve managed to PP stall seed flare twice out of the four matches I’ve actually encountered him in (which I actually won) I can revenge with Politoed, PP stall with Cruel, Gyro Ball/Thunder Wave with Nattorei and thunder/HP Ice with Zapdos. Worst case, Roobushin can survive Life Orb Air slash from very High health and KO with Payback (flinchhax bites though) Threat Rating 10/10

    I have dealt with other threats that kicked my ass (BD venomoth BP to LO Encourage Nidoking) but these threats are more obscure than I could name here, and just have to deal with them as I see them. Any other threats that people can think of would be appreciated. Really though B/W has just soooooooo many threats It’s near Impossible to count them all.


    So there’s the team, I like the styles and I feel no member is a weak link. They all contribute equally well and I love every set. Seeing as this is a team retirement (I’m getting a little bored of it tbh), I probably won’t be implementing the changes, but I would really appreciate feedback and changes I can make anyway. I really could use the experience and good advice of the smogon members to help me improve my team building and playing in the future. Thanks for reading and happy rating!

    Merry Christmas Smogon!!!! (I know it’s not Christmas Day but still)
  2. casey90

    casey90

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    this is my first RMT can someone shoe me the proper way to get sprites?
  3. kc4444

    kc4444

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    94
    On your Zapdos, you could try substitute over roar/HP Ice
    Roobushin could run Iron FIst as an ability (I think)

    Just suggestions.

    If you are using google images (the best anyway), copy the url at the top after opening the image, the paste it into the prompt for the 'insert picture'. Don't copy and paste the image.
  4. casey90

    casey90

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    125
    I haven't really tried Sub yet on zapdos, may I ask what advantages it brings? I'm guessing it's for a sub roost set but without pressure would that be a bit of a waste?

    And I used to use iron fist on Roo, I like that it's always active for my stab, I like to switch between the abilities form time to time.

    and I tried pretty much what you said (I think) about the images. thank you for the rate though.
  5. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,505
    With Guts, Roopushin never has a reason to use Iron Fist. 20% increase only to punching moves or 50% increase to all moves and pseudo status immunity? The choice is obvious.

    Sub on Zapdos likewise makes you immune to status, most importantly being Toxic. With Zapdos's great bulk it's one of the more reliable methods of taking it down.

    Replace Leftovers with Black Sludge on Tentacruel, simply because if you get Tricked or switch into Trick it does nothing for your opponent. Small advantage but no reason not too, you know? Also if you're going to be abusing Toxic I think you should replace Boiling Water for Surf since it clashes with all your Toxic moves and makes stalling easier.

    Same with Nattorei. Nattorei can really help with the Toxic stalling by replacing Thunder Wave for Protect. A free turn of Leftovers, Toxic damage, and Leech Seed is too good to pass up.

    I find it odd that you're not using a Swift Swimmer like Kingdra or Ludicolo but honestly this team seems pretty damn effective.

    Finally SOMEBODY sees the benefit of running Calm Mind over Tail Glow on Manaphy. That is so broken it's going to be banned at some point but enjoy it while you got it ya know? I'd run max defense since you can boost your SpD anyway.

    I tell everyone this but Stone Edge is better than Payback on Roopushin. It KO's the frail ghosts anyway like Gengar and you can setup all day on Burungeru and KO with it. You also now have means of hitting Zapdos, Dragonite, Salamence, Skymin, Ulgamoth, etc.

    When you have to say goodbye though Hydration Vaporeon should be the obvious substitute. Wish passing will severely help the rest of your bulky stall team. Which is what this is, ironic considering you said you don't like stall originally lol.

    Anyways great team, it's easy to see how it got so high.
  6. Curtains

    Curtains

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,123
    why not use tail glow on manaphy over cm. IIRC its plus 3 special attack. you can even keep your spread and it will be useful.
  7. Fiddy

    Fiddy

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    98
    It is way more bulky, and scarfed ditto can't switch in and sweep.

    BTW your EVs on manaphy equal 524.

    I personally would almost always go with Gyro Ball on Natt for this team. You have TS down and tenta can burn everyone else with boiling water. Jaroda has nothing on gyro ball nattorei.
  8. TransparentOpacity

    TransparentOpacity

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
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    139
    No, the choice is not obvious. With guts, you only get that 50% if you have status. So in order to insure you get you status, you would need a flame orb or a toxic orb. Not only do those hurt you significantly, especially when trying to set up, but you also lose an item, and have to wait a turn for it to even activate.

    With Iron fists, you can attack right off the bat. You can also make up for the power by using a life orb, which only damages you when you attack, and which only takes away 1/10th of your HP rather than 1/8th. Or you can use leftovers, which are also pretty valuable.

    The only benefit of Guts is not having a status condition, but he has Manaphy for that.

    BTW I thought Manaphy was uber. Either way you have too many evs on it.

    Also, it would help if you would list the moves that your pokemon have, rather than listing 6 moves because then I can't really help you that much. You can have roar, or HP water, but you can't have Roar/HP water.
  9. idiotfrommars

    idiotfrommars schemes and plots are the same thing
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    For images it would read [IMG.]image url[IMG.] without the periods.
  10. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

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    Overall it looks like a very solid rain team-- you should be proud.

    As to your problems with grass types . . . My personal suggestion would be to try a dragon to counter them. Scarf Latios is the one that comes to mind first thanks to its bulk and power, but I don't think it can OHKO bulkier Jaroda, which would be a problem . . .

    This is why I'm going to suggest something weird in Scarf Kyuuremu (over tentacruel actually). :P Kyuuremu would anhialate grass types with its Ice Beam of death. Something as simple as this could probably be useful:

    Kyuuremu
    @Choice Scarf
    Timid
    4 HP 252 Sp.A 252 Spe
    -Draco Meteor
    -Ice Beam
    -Focus Blast
    -Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse (just for Shanderaa . . .)

    I'd suggest going with Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse first if facing a team with Shanderaa . . .
  11. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    With Boiling Water, Toxic Spikes and Mischievous Heart users everywhere getting Roopushin statused is practically an inevitability. Roopushin doesn't NEED the Guts boost to be effective. Bulk Up alone is great and Guts helps you when you get burned, whereas if you had Iron Fist your sweep would get cut short. Leftovers on Guts helps mitigate burn or poison damage and can even fool many opponents into thinking you ARE using Iron Fist and status you for free.
  12. TransparentOpacity

    TransparentOpacity

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    Dec 16, 2009
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    Well if that works for you then go ahead and use it. I just don't get status'd enough for guts to be effective. His Tentacruel already absorbs T spikes, and I don't know why he would even leave his Roopushin in against a Sableye, so it seems the chances of him getting a status condition are limited. His moves are mainly punches, so Iron Fist would work the best in most scenarios. With Iron Fist, he gets that extra damage every game. With guts, it's only situational.
  13. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    Mach Punch becomes 48 BP instead of 40. Negligible. Drain Punch becomes 90 instead of 75. Better. But at the cost of being crippled by burn? Not worth it. Now if he were using a Substitute and Focus Punch set where Sub protects you and Focus Punch goes from 150 to 180 then yes Iron Fist would be a great ability. On standard BU sets though Guts keeps you safe.

    Anyways sorry to detract from your thread casey.
  14. casey90

    casey90

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
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    Well first, Jaroda, no need to apoligize, you've been half the topic buddy. I appreciate all the input from everyone so I'll try to address what everyone said.

    Firstly, the argument of Guts vs. Iron Fist on Roo. I'm going with Guts. Roob doesn't have it in him all the time to switch out anytime a Will o' Wisp user comes in. I'd rather just take the attack and kill it, which would consequently make the rest of his team half to deal with a far more powerful Roo than before.

    On the subject of the manaphy Ev's, whoops the (new) Ev's are 236 HP 164 DEF and 108 Speed providing 400 HP, 304 Def, 236 Sp. Att/Def, 263 Spe. Capitalising on his access to calm mind giving him boosted special defense to compliment his already high defense. I'm also going to retain calm mind because I've found only a few situations where I could use TG, that's when they're going to switch tyranitar in to remove rain, in which case +3 Surf KO's whereas +1 does not (at least on the sets that I've fought).

    Chou, Thank you for the compliment (and everyone else as well) that means a lot coming from a player of your stature. Now onto the suggestion of Kyurem over tentacruel, the anti-grass capabilities cannot be overlooked, the rain would give it a fire resist to help capitalise on it's bulk, (making shandera a little less annoying) allowing it to switch in on special threats and pound them with powerful attacks. That's the Pro, the cons are loss of a strong wall (who helps a lot with the grasses as it is), my use of toxic spikes (this being the main reason I might say no), and loss of a spinner. I'd like some outside advice on the subject from anyone willing.

    For Nattorei, the merits of both Protect and Gyro Ball are huge, thunderwave is out officially, I realized after some mulling about that TW doesn't pull it's weight for the team compared to the other moves. Gyro ball would give me strong dual stab (and a powerful move to pound grasses with) the other will help me stall their stab moves (the most threatening ones tend to have 8 PP) as well as gain leftovers/leech seed recovery and scout out an opponents move such as HP fire From latios, or fire blast from TTar.

    @ Jaroda, about Stone edge on Roo, I tried it a couple times, I didn't like the imperfect accuracy, but I did pwn a Gyara and Mence with it (twas sweet), however it didn't kill latias which was sad, I think I might stick with Payback on account of accuracy. The lack of a swift swimmer on this team is sad, I figured that's what I'd do if Manaphy got banned, run something beast like MixDra. Finally on the subject of Zapdos, I'm going with HP Ice, Sub does block status, but even times when I do get toxic'd, I find out that the team really just didn't have enough offensive presence to take it down otherwise, which made it very easy for CM Manaphy to set up and beat them.

    Thanks for all the feedback guys (and gals if there are any), I really appreciate it.

    P.S. I was thinking about a new team idea that truly abuses the ability regeneration, I'd go more in depth about my thoughts, but I'm not sure if that's allowed (to any mods If I can't do this that'll be the end of the discussion right here)

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