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Tired of Blissey? How about Togekiss?

Discussion in 'Stark Mountain' started by Dragontamer, Aug 14, 2007.

  1. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    I've been using this Togekiss as my Special Tank with decent amounts of success in Shoddybattle. People tend to be surprised as this thing shrugs off a non-specs Starmie Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, and when Cresselia can't break its subs. I give you... defensive Togekiss!

    Togekiss @ Leftovers
    Calm: 252/252 Hp and Sp. Def
    -----------
    Air Slash
    Roost
    Substitute
    Nasty Plot

    Defense Tiers discussion
    This Togekiss hits 124.94 on the Sp. Defense scale. Essentially, this Togekiss is as strong as a neutral 0/0 Chansey defensively. It takes Super-Effective attacks like Thunderbolt or Ice Beam at tier 117.67, or about how a 0/0 Gallade would take a Thunderbolt.

    On the Physical Defense side, this Togekiss scores 119.03. For comparison, Bold 255/255 Def Blissey Scores 121.01. So you can expect this Togekiss to absorb physical attacks a little worse than your standard Blissey. 2 tiers is the difference between having a Expert Belt / Dragon Plate/ etc. etc. and not having one. Blissey is 2 tiers stronger on the physical side.

    List of Damage Calculations
    Here are some calculations thanks to Metalkid's Calculator here:
    http://www.metalkid.info/Pokemon/OnlineProgram/Calculators/DamageDP.aspx

    Timid 252 Sp. Atk Starmie using Thunderbolt/Ice Beam: 31.02% - 36.36%
    Modest 252 Sp. Atk Starmie :33.96% - 39.84%
    Defensive Cresselia using Ice Beam: 19.52% - 22.99%
    Defensive Blissey using Ice Beam: 19.52% - 22.99%
    Modest 252 Sp. Atk Gengar Thunderbolt : 40.37% - 47.59%
    SpecsMence DracoMeteor: 59.36% - 69.79%
    Two Hits from SpecsMence: 89.57 - 105.35% (100.46% average) Note: Leftovers heals you by 6%

    Needless to say, unless there is a critcial hit, this Bulky Togekiss will Roost off the damage from SpecsMence (0% chance of kill after you factor in Leftovers) and then Nasty Plot as it switches out. Substitute is in to help Togekiss counter Blissey and Cresselia. I would call that a clear-cut counter. Substitute prevents Thunder-Waves and Hypnosis from hitting Togekiss, a very important trait when going toe to toe against these uber-walls.

    Togekiss can not win against CalmMind Blissey or Cresselia unless you flinch hax several times in a row. Calm Mind variants will be able to break your subs in one turn

    Similarly, Scarf Starmie and normal Starmie pose no threat to this Togekiss, and this Togekiss will threaten right back with Nasty Plot. Even Gengar scores only a 3-hit KO against this defensive beast. Because of Gengar's speed, it will outrun Togekiss in Hypnosis vs Substitute. So this Togekiss isn't a counter to Gengar, but it hit him one or two times if necessary.

    --------

    I admit, while this bulky Togekiss nudges off non-STAB attacks from common OU attackers, it isn't a Blissey. It scores even lower than Snorelax when it comes to Sp. Def tiers. However, with the ability to counter non-CM versions of Cresselia and Blissey, as well as (bearly) countering Specsmence and Non-Specs Starmie, I think a defensive Togekiss deserves a mention.

    All this while of course retaining its well known signature 60% Flinch-Hax while threatening a Nasty Plot sweep.
  2. DownShift

    DownShift

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    I'll try this or Snorlax for my new team. I'll try it out and PM you how well it works! Nice!
  3. Sir Spanky

    Sir Spanky

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    The trouble with Togekiss as your main special tank is that it needs backing up. When stuff like Zapdos and Raikou can 2HKO, you are forced to run both Swampert, and also something that can test for HP Grass. I feel this limits my options a lot.
  4. Tinnacious

    Tinnacious

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    It's an alternative to the pink whore, of course, it can't replace Blissey but Togekiss can really take hits like a champ. It's kinda crazy actually, I don't expect this tanking ability from Togekiss, but wow.
  5. Vineon

    Vineon Fleurdelysé
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    can this be done without *sighing implying that mostly everyone is too stupid to understand your new age concept plz

    thanks.
  6. Flash_gearz

    Flash_gearz

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    I've tried using togekiss as my sp. Defender, but No one ever likes it. they all rather have Blissey, because of how it can take any special attack If feels like, unlike Togekiss, who dies rather easily to Thunderbolt, and Icebaem
  7. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    I kinda like this set, but I dont like substitute.. There are millions of better option that could go in that slot: Twave, light screen, reflect, mirror move, psych up..

    [edit] - yeah definitely baton pass.. lol how did I miss that..

    Have a nice day.
  8. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    Those damage calcs seem quite appealing and it does seem to have some merit. The BoltBeam weakness would be an irksome point when it comes to switching in though.

    Say you switch in on a Starmie using Surf. You're looking at 25% from Stealth Rock if it's in play, then you're gonna take the initial attack. After that you're gonna be hit by a Thunderbolt/Ice Beam. Factor in a potential Sandstorm and the fact that most Starmies pack an Expert Belt and you may find Togekiss to be rather unreliable. Your best chance at staying alive is to Roost constantly leaving you no time to do anything else.

    Regice suffered the same problem - it's hard to sponge when you lose a quarter of your health everytime you switch in. Roost helps that somewhat, but it's still gonna be a bitch. To that end, I'd think a Rapid Spinner would be ESSENTIAL for this to work.

    Keeping your Substitute up against Cresselia is cool, but I don't think it's really practical forthe purpose of the set. The last thing you wanna be doing is losing another 25% health. So I would definately rather run:

    Baton Pass - This would allow you to threaten even more. With that amount of durability, passing on a +2 Special Attack is gonna threaten a lot more than having a Substitute in play.

    Shadow Ball - Help out against Cresselia, Gengar, Alakazam etc.

    Reflect/Light Screen - Increase Togekiss' own durability and allow it to psuedopass if neccesary. Works well with Roost.

    ThunderWave/Toxic - ThunderWave works well with Air Slash and Togekiss' poor speed (You aint gonna flinch much with 196 speed) and Toxicing an opponent is always nice when you can stall them with Roost. Other than that, they just annoy the heck out of the opponent and give good team support. Having said that, Toxic/Will-o-Wisp is something you also need to look out for as Natural Cure is often overlooked on Blissey but it saves her ass time and time again.

    Just my musings. Does have potential (I know I wouldn't like to fight it as Air Slash flinches me all the fucking time), and kudos for not giving it a gay name like Togewall.
  9. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    I'm not however. I'm simply noting that there are people out there who don't like me just using Defense Tiers to perform an analysis. I'll remove it if thats how you're taking it however. Really, it was a mild joke. But never mind that...
  10. y2zipper

    y2zipper

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    This set should actually be called "TogeBliss"

    I don't like this thing much, because it seems to only work against defensive pokemon with special moves. I'd like to see more calculations, preferably from Porygon Z, Magnezone, Mixape, Azelf, and Alakazam. I don't really care about special defensive tiers (because they don't take HP into consideration when decided what should wall), and I would like to know how this thing handles the hard-hitting special sweepers.

    My initial thought is these special sweepers (which blissey is used to stop), could just run this thing over.
  11. Money

    Money

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    Raikou seems to mess with it a lot. Subs on Air Slashes, CMs and puts a massive dent in it with TBolt.
  12. aamto

    aamto on whom the three Fates smile

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    Like they said, I don't like Sub OR Nasty Plot, as you only have 1 attack to abuse it and don't even have EV investment on the big two stats that Air Slash thrives on: speed and Sattack. There is gonna be no sweeping with this Togekiss. Air Slash's flinch rate isn't put to much use on this Togekiss, seeing as how you're not paralyzing anything and are packing a massive 196 speed. So, Air Slash is kindof an afterthought on this.

    Given the dubiousness of a NP/Air Slash sweep on this Togekiss, I suggest you drop NP for something of more use (Body Slam, Thunder-Wave, there have been good suggestions), so that 'Kiss can be a workable utility unit, as well. Or, better yet, drop the sub for Baton Pass, this way NP can be used to aid something that -can- sweep. Soak up a special hit, NP the switch, and get the fuck outta there. Probably a bit harder to do than usual BPing Togekisses, given the bad speed.

    I also think it was mentioned before but worth repeating: SpecsMence 2HKOs you with Stealth Rock up. And Stealth Rock is an extremely common move.
  13. owac

    owac

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    i use togekiss a lot, for spdefense an flinchax para-support, wish-support

    is good but the blotbeam weak hurt a lot
  14. -FL-

    -FL-

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    Agreeing here with this guy, I mean, the object of this set is to stop some sweepers from owning you but still pose a threat to them. Maybe that thing of "posing a threat" could be changed into something like "while supporting your team mates". Moves like Reflect/Light Screen, Baton Pass, Thunder Wave come to my mind.

    However, I find the set quite appealing for me, calcs are sexy, too. I'll try this set someday. Thanks for sharing (:
  15. StrangerDanger

    StrangerDanger RETURN TO COMPETITIVE POKEMON ISLAND
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    Nasty Plot's there to compensate for the 0 Sp.Atk EV investment. I do, however, believe that Reflect/Lightscreen is better on Togekiss, perhaps Reflect, raising it's ability to take physical hits as well.
  16. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    Enough of the names :-/

    Erm... Sp. Def tiers do. Thats why I made them. Not Special Defense stat, special defense Tiers. They also factor in Super-Effective hits, calm mind, Amnesia and even Nature. Check my sig for details.

    And I'd hardly call Starmie "defensive" :-/ Defensively, Infernape and Porygon-Z are similar to Starmie. Infernape gets SlackOff for Starmie's Recover :-p

    Well... Adaptability Nasty Plot Life Orb Porygon Z runs over Blissey. In fact, I use one (with Substitute :-p) to punch through Blissey myself. I don't think we need to worry about Togekiss here. I think it only to be fair to consider Porygon-Z without Nasty Plot... I mean, I'll tell you right now it will murder Togekiss.

    Also, Adaptability is broken in Metalkid's calculator. If someone else would do that damage calc for me, that would be nice. (there is no difference with and without adaptability...)

    Porygon-Z Icebeam/thunderbolt is 41.71% - 48.93%, without Life-Orb or Specs. Amazingly, Togekiss only eats a 3-hit KO from Super-Effective Porygon-Z hits. I can't think of a stronger non-STAB boltbeamer than Porygon-Z, so I think we can conclude that this Togekiss can wall non-boosted bolt/beam. But as soon as any boost starts getting in (STAB, Life Orb, Specs...) we'll have to run more calculations to see.

    In terms of attack, the only thing that could hurt more than this Porygon-Z is a STAB Thunderbolt from Magnezone... who 4x resists the only attack on this Togekiss. Needless to say, you should switch out. (But Magnezone fears the 2-hit KO from an Aura Sphere on the standard Togekiss. Togekiss outruns Magnezone and takes 60.70% - 71.39% from Thunderbolt. A clear 2-hit KO)

    As for Infernape... he has Thunderpunch and Stone Edge, and Swords Dance IIRC. I wouldn't want Togekiss (or even Blissey) to be going up against an Infernape till I was sure he was mostly special. Even then, I have quick and speedy pokemon like Ambipom for that reason. But if you figure out Infernape is special... needless to say, this Togekiss walls him and strikes back with a possible Super-Effective OHKO from a little attack called "Air Slash". (As shown above... Porygon-Z 3 hit KOs this Togekiss with bolt/beam. Unless Infernape was physical, he'd do worse)

    Oh, and one more thing: Metalkid's calculator is crapping up on me. I only was able to get Porygon Z's bolt/beam calcs done. Sorry for not being able to do any of the others.
  17. aura_lucario

    aura_lucario

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    I do not know if anyone mentioned or asked this, but why nasty plot over thunder wave? To my knowledge most walls have a crippling move like thunder wave anyway.
  18. Dragontamer

    Dragontamer

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    These points are correct. However, without Nasty Plot, this Togekiss looses its ability to counter Blissey and Cresselia. Which seem to come in almost by reaction as soon as Togekiss comes out. (And I just laugh manically when some bozo switches in the harmless Starmie into this set. Starmie is literally setup time for me in Shoddybattle. Just because you can bolt/beam doesn't mean you can hurt Togekiss :-p)

    Basically, this set was designed to counter Togekiss's counters: namely the big walls like Blissey and Cresselia. If you substitute on something harmless that probably will switch out (say Ninjask), you manage to gain a hell of a lot more momentum than you may give credit for.

    Take Infernape. Infernape will outspeed Togekiss and probably kill it with Thunderpunch, Stone Edge, or whatever. But with a sub up, you're forced to sacrifice infernape for the substitute, or switch out.

    Additionally, Air Slash is chosen NOT for the flinch rate, but for the reliable STAB damage. No pokemon is immune (not even Shedinja) and only Magnezone IIRC is 4x resistant. Granted, the flinch rate is the icing on the cake vs Blissey and Cresselia.

    This is not para-flinch Togekiss. This is the Togekiss Tank set. As noted, Body Slam or Thunder Wave support is necessary for sweeping, but this isn't a sweeper. And unless you have Nasty Plot, the other big walls who WILL come in for you, are going to pwn you... slowly... but surely.
  19. Sir_Lu

    Sir_Lu

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    Nice, but the biggest thing hurting it, in my opinion, is the simple fact that it takes Stealth Rock damage.

    I, infact use a variant of it (T-Wave over sub and wish over roost for a few matches), but the biggest thing that really upset me was stealth rock. With only 75% of my usual HP, it was much harder to wall certain threats; especially users of choice specs. What would normally be 3HKOs (Specs Zam, Lucario, Heatran, and Roserade from experience, and as you mentioned, Salamence).
  20. Shen

    Shen

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    To do the damage calc for Adaptability Tri Attack, just set the move to "Override", the BP to "133" and the attack type to "Special" as Adaptability changes the STAB modifier to 2. Not overly difficult. I use a bulky Togekiss myself, don't forget that Blissey often runs Seismic Toss, which will break your subs. I have Aura Sphere over sub for that reason; 80% damage on Blissey after 3 NPs.
  21. aamto

    aamto on whom the three Fates smile

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    For the record, a 3x NP Togekiss is doing <50% to min SDef/680ish HP Blissey. Now, does that seem productive, NPing 3x and hoping on flinch-hax (which may never happen given the likely-hood of a T-wave coming your way from either poke)? Also, countering? Blissey and Cresselia? I was unaware that these two pokemon were so threatening that they needed their own counter. In all seriousness, I would say Tyranitar or a pursuiter (seriously, nearly every team has one of either Tar, Heracross, Weavile, or Metagross) are better "counters" (lol) than this Togekiss.

    (Also Ninjask is a very, very bad example to use, because he's gonna set up his own sub against you. And on the turn you break the sub, he can get a free Swords Dance to something dangerous (and undoubtedly faster than that Togekiss). And if you don't break his sub, you have to deal with a speed boosted and attack boosted pokemon.)
    ...into something like Tyranitar. Even if you switch Ape into the sub, all you have to do is send out a strong flying resist (Tyranitar, Rhyperior, Metagross, the list goes on) next turn. All of those are very common pokes.

    Then don't say that this Togekiss can sweep. Because it cannot.

    You know, you don't need to keep Togekiss in against those big walls. You can switch to something much more threatening to them. It's probably a much more fruitful option.
  22. OldSchoolNub

    OldSchoolNub

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    I use Regice, and as long as I can Rapid Spin the Stealth Rocks away, it's a beast. Exploding is nice, too. I wouldnt recommend using it without Rapid Spin, but if you do have it, it's very effective. This set has potential but I think switching into Ice Beam/TBolt will hurt after a while. Then again, Roost is very nice and gives it some staying power
  23. Akayfortyseven

    Akayfortyseven

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    Stealth rock and boltbeam weak isnt to attractive to me, especially as my main special wall. Its support options are where it really shines imo. Screening, wishing BPing etc.
  24. Lemmiwinks MkII

    Lemmiwinks MkII

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    Even if Infernape was ALL-special, if Stealth Rock is on the ground, Togekiss still cannot switch in to it safely. After a Nasty Plot, Life Orb Fire Blast has a high chance of OHKOing. It would never happen to be the other way round, as nobody in their right mind would ever switch Infernape into Togekiss.

    Nevertheless, there is one thing that Togekiss does undeniably have over Blissey. It is capable of countering Chain Chomp, even with Stealth Rock on the ground.
  25. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    The trouble with Togekiss being "nearly as good as Blissey" is rendered meaningless when it is weak to BoltBeam and Stealth Rock. That being said, it looks like an awesome idea.

    If Metalkid's isn't down anymore, I wonder how it does against Mixape Close Combat.

    Anyway, Having the effective defense of Chansey isn't that laudable, and Blissey does one thing Togekiss can't: Cleric.

    The set also has problems with Steels. The weakest SDef ones, Skarm and Steelix can Phaze it out, although +2 Air Slash can 3HKO. Metagross is too much of a physical threat to stay in against. Magnezone just goes "LOL whut?"

    And then there's TTar, who can use this set as a free DD or a Sub setup.

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