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Torkoal (OU Bulky Lead)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Tomahawk, Nov 24, 2010.

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  1. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010

    Status: Waiting for QC approval

    name: OU Bulky Lead
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Rapid Spin
    move 3: Fire Blast / Lava Plume
    move 4: Explosion / Yawn
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Relaxed / Bold
    EVs: 252 HP, 44 Defense, 212 Sp. Def

    Why this set deserves to be on-site:
    • Torkoal has enormous bulk with 70/140/70 Defenses.
    • His Sp. Def is not very high, but with resistance to the most common special Types in the lead position (Fire, Grass, Ice) he takes them exceptionally well.
    • With 85 offenses in both Attack and Sp. Atk and Fire-Type STAB, he can deal damage himself with ease.
    • Explosion, Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin; something Skarmory can't do.
    • He may look outclassed by Forretress at first sight, but with his key resistance to Fire (instead of a 4x weakness) he has some use over Forretress.

    Additional Comments:
    • Stealth Rock is an obvious move for a bulky lead.
    • Rapid Spin allows you to spin away the entry hazards of the opposing lead.
    • He has a lot of viable options for his Fire-Type move:
      Fire Blast is the main option, but you can use Flamethrower for accuracy.
      Lava Plume for burn rate or Overheat for immediate damage.
      However, use Overheat only if you go for Overheat + Explosion.
    • Explosion vs Yawn is a hard choice.
      Explosion is an awesome move with high damage output, but Yawn helps a lot against some problematic lead, as seen in Post #3
      Will-o-Wisp and Earth Power are other options for the last slot.
      Will-o-Wisp gives you helpful status against Physical Pokes,
      while Earth Power 2HKO's Heatran and Infernape.
    • The EVs are fine-tuned; they allow him to be almost never 2HKO'd.
      All damage calculations are seen in Post #2.
  2. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010
    Damage Calculations vs Top 10 Leads


    Explosion: 83.1 - 98%
    Fire Blast: 18.9 - 22.4%
    Psychic: 43 - 50.9%

    Explosion: 100%
    Fire Blast: 58.6 - 69.2%
    Flamethrower: 46.6 - 55.5%
    Lava Plume: 39.4 - 46.6%


    Dynamicpunch: 34.3 - 40.4%
    Stone Edge: 45.9 - 54.1%
    Bullet Punch: 4.7 - 5.5%

    Explosion: 98.7 - 116.3%
    Fire Blast: 33.3 - 39.4%
    Lava Plume: 22 - 26.2%


    Earthquake: 36 - 43%
    Rock Slide: 40.7 - 48.8%
    Stone Edge: 54.1 - 64.5%

    Explosion: 73.8 - 86.7%
    Fire Blast: 23.9 - 27.9%
    Lava Plume: 15.9 - 18.9%


    Meteor Mash: 17.4 - 20.9%
    Bullet Punch: 7 - 8.4%
    Explosion: 100%
    Earthquake: 47.1 - 55.8%

    Explosion: 34.1 - 40.4%
    Fire Blast: 68.1 - 80.8%
    Overheat: 79.1 - 94%
    Flamethrower: 54.4 - 64.3%
    Lava Plume: 46.2 - 54.4%


    Earthquake: 44.2 - 52.9%
    Waterfall: 35.5 - 42.4%
    Surf: 54.1 - 63.4%

    Explosion: 62.1 - 73.3%
    Fire Blast: 14.5 - 17.2%
    Lava Plume: 9.7 - 11.5%


    Fake Out: 6.4 - 7.6%
    Fire Blast: 25.3 - 29.7%
    Close Combat: 27.3 - 32.6%

    Explosion: 100%
    Fire Blast: 28.3 - 33.4%
    Fire Blast (-1 Sp. Def): 42.7 - 50.2%
    Fire Blast (-2 Sp. Def): 56.3 - 66.6%
    Fire Blast (-3 Sp. Def): 70.6 - 83.3%
    Fire Blast (-4 Sp. Def): 85.3 - 100.3%
    Lava Plume: 18.8 - 22.5%
    Lava Plume (-1 Sp. Def): 28.7 - 33.8%
    Lava Plume (-2 Sp. Def): 37.9 - 44.7%
    Lava Plume (-3 Sp. Def): 47.1 - 55.6%
    Lava Plume (-4 Sp. Def): 57 - 67.2%
    Earth Power: 57.3 - 67.6%


    Earth Power: 59.3 - 69.8%
    Fire Blast: 29.7 - 34.9%
    Explosion: 62.8 - 74.1%

    Explosion: 45.8 - 54.2%
    Earth Power (Shuca): 37.2 - 44%
    Earth Power: 74.3 - 87.9%


    Iron Head: 10.5 - 12.2%
    U-Turn: 6.1 - 7.3%
    Thunderpunch: 13.1 - 15.7%

    Explosion: 45.6 - 53.8%
    Fire Blast: 65.5 - 77.8%
    Flamethrower: 52.6 - 62%
    Lava Plume: 44.4 - 52.6%


    X-Scissor: 9.6 - 11.6%
    Aerial Ace: 14.8 - 17.7%

    Explosion: 100%
    Fire Blast: 100%
    Lava Plume: 98.9 - 117.1%


    Toxic Spikes Lead:

    Leaf Storm: 33.1 - 39.2%
    Energy Ball / Grass Knot: 19.2 - 22.7%

    Explosion: 100%
    Overheat: 96.9 - 114.5%
    Fire Blast: 83.2 - 98.5%
    Lava Plume: 55.7 - 66.4%

    Choice Scarf:

    Leaf Storm: 33.1 - 39.2%
    Energy Ball: 19.2 - 22.7%
    Sludge Bomb: 43 - 50.9%
    HP Ground: 44.8 - 52.9%

    For Torkoal's attacks, see Toxic Spikes Lead.


    Energy Ball / Grass Knot: 15.7 - 18.3%

    Explosion: 100%
    Fire Blast: 53.7 - 63.6%
    Flamethrower: 42.6 - 50.6%
    Lava Plume: 35.9 - 42.6%
  3. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010
    How he fares against the Top 10 Leads

    You can start off with either SR or Rapid Spin.
    With the first option you probably both use SR.
    Next turn, if he has Fire Blast, he'll probably Explode, which never KO's.
    If he has Psychic, he'll probably try to Psychic and 3HKO you.
    You can easily Rapid Spin his entry hazards away.

    Dynamicpunch almost never 3HKO's, so you can easily set up SR, and Explode for the KO.
    If you have Lava Plume or Will-o-Wisp, that's a nice option to use as well.

    Not the best matchup. Rock Slide is a 3HKO and Stone Edge is a 2HKO.
    Luckily, most Aerodactyl carry Rock Slide.
    You can set up rocks and Spin theirs away.
    If you don't want the risk of getting Taunted, you can try to burn with Will-o-Wisp or Lava Plume.
    Also, Yawn forces him to switch, which is great.
    Fire Blast + Explosion (+ Rapid Spin) almost always is a 2HKO.

    I never lose this matchup, even if it has EQ, which has a slight chance at 2HKOing (17%).
    It usually starts off with SR, meaning I can either set up SR, or go for the 2HKO with Fire Blast/Flamethrower.
    First Turn: Metagross - SR, Torkoal - Fire Blast
    Second Turn: Metagross - EQ, Torkoal - Fire Blast (KO's Metagross)
    First Turn: Metagross & Torkoal - SR
    Second Turn: Metagross - EQ, Torkoal - Rapid Spin
    Third Turn: Metagross - SR, Torkoal - Fire Blast
    Fourth Turn: Metagross - EQ, Torkoal - Fire Blast
    (you win 83% of the time, and you have rocks up)
    If he lacks EQ, it's even easier.

    Although Swampert has the advantage, I can usually play around this.
    It can't 2HKO (unless it has Surf, but it never does) me, so I can SR + Spin at least.
    I usually start off with SR, then I Spin, then I Explode.
    If I have Yawn, I start with Yawn.
    If it used EQ/Waterfall/Surf, I can SR on the switch.
    If it used SR, I can either SR or Rapid Spin on the switch.

    He can't touch you.
    You can easily set up rocks and spin his away.

    Earth Power 2HKO's.
    You actually can't touch him, so I usually just set up rocks and spin.
    If you have Yawn, you can actually Yawn on the first turn and SR/Spin on the switch.
    If you have Yawn, you can 2HKO to go for the win,
    as they usually SR first turn while you EP, then die next turn.
    Earth Power:WIN

    He only wins if he flinches Torkoal 20 times in a row.
    Means: you win 99.9999989% of the time.
    All he can do is Trick his Scarf first turn, so I usually go for my Fire move to 2HKO.

    Free rocks!
    You can practically OHKO him with any move you have (outside Earth Power).
    Just deal with him like you do with any other Lead.

    Roserade leads are usually the Toxic Spikes Lead on-site.
    As they can't touch they go for Sleep Powder and then set up 2 layers of Toxic Spikes.
    I just take the sleep and Rapid Spin/Fire move as I wake up.
    This continues until Sleep Powder misses, then you KO him with your Fire-move.

    One last note, don't come with comments like:
    "Torkoal sucks. 'Nuff said."
    "He isn't NU for nothing."
    It actually has potential. If you test it, you'll see.
  4. Darkamber8828


    Dec 28, 2009
    You forgot the part where you slash Earth Power on the set.

    Azelf SRs and Booms. Or screens. LOSE

    Machamp is faster and Koes with two Stone Edges, and can Dynamicpunch to fuck you over. You have a 75% chance of SR, which would be a tie, and that other 25% would be a loss. You have a 25% chance of KOing with Fire Blast+Explosion, which would be a tie, and that other 75% would be a loss. (TIE/LOSS)

    Aerodactyl 2HKOs with Stone Edge, or Taunts and SRs. LOSS

    Metagross gets up SR, then you get up SR. Then it Earthquakes-->Explodes for a tie. Alternatively, it Earthquakes three times while you set SR, which is a tie leaning on a win. But if it has Lum, you win. TIE/WIN.

    Swampert sets up SR while you do too, then it Earthquakes while you boom, or Protects. LOSS

    Infernape SRs while you do, then CCs while you spin. Then you explode while he sets up SR. (TIE)

    Heatran SRs while you do too. it Earth Powers while you spin. Then it SRs. Then it Earth Powers again as you die. (LOSS)

    Jirachi Tricks and SRs. TIE, I think.

    Ninjask sets up while you SR. Tie, I guess.

    Roserade sleeps you. LOSS


    Also, doesn't Claydol kinda do this a bit better?


    Dec 6, 2009
    Hmm..this seems quite interesting. I'll definitely test this a bit as it does have some uses. What I suggest is thinking about Earth Power. If I'm not mistaken, Torkoal can learn it and it can be of great use vs lead Ape and Tran but like I said I'll do some tests to see if it is worthy to be on the set. Nothing else to really say. Also vs Machamp I don't think you always win. D-punch confuses you so its based on chance on whether you'd hit or not.
  6. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010
    Earth Power may seem like a good option, but it only 3HKO's Heatran.
    Yawn is usually a better option as it helps dealing with Swampert and Aero.

    Edit: EP 2HKO's Heatran. Shuca Berry only works once '___'


    Dec 6, 2009
    Ok tested it in 3 matches vs Azelf and the final one against Swampert. My opponent for one match did not Taunt and simply put entry hazards then exploded although i predcited and switched to Rotom-w. Swampert I got rocks up against, although it severely dented me and then roared as I yawned(Note you do not have the bulk to take 3 EQ's ie. sr up yawn and spin or spin). The point I am making is that this set is nothing special, it has positivies but the negativs outway it. You cannot prevent any lead from setting up entry hazards bar Skarmory and Forretress. Everything else is not ohko and outspeeds Torkoal. Unlike Infernape you do not pose a significant threat to opposing leads who Taunt you. Infact 'Yawning' Aerodactyl forces it to switch, allowing it the chance to come back later in the game and wreck some more shit. We'll have to wait and see what QC members have to say and good luck. Since Torkoal is not a familiar sight even in UU, I have some doubts about it as a lead(playing a role where it cannot be used to its full potential) in OU.
  8. Megan_Fox


    Nov 25, 2009
    Like the above posters have said, I'm not very convinced of this set. Not only is it Taunt bait, but it is also very slow and loses to a lot of leads. Also, it has a tough time spinning after the lead game because of its Sr weakness and overall isn't very useful outside of the lead position (if it really is useful there). Ill test it out though.
  9. NightShadow


    Jun 3, 2010
    with the machamp lead matchup section, you forgot that Dynamicpunch confuses you. So you have a 50% chance of doing whatever you want to do. Also, even if Torkoal gets rocks up, so do they and most of them smash this lead.
  10. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk If you don't like stroopwafels you got to flikker op
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 2, 2010
    I added Earth Power to the OP.
    I still think Yawn is superior though.
  11. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    May 29, 2008
    You really took 3 posts to make THIS set? I'm stunned.

    Let's re-evaluate some things, shall we?

    Azelf- Lose. Standard Taunt / SR fare. Fire Blast has to roll high damage twice to 2HKO the bulkier Colbur leads. CB variant will likely just explode, preventing your SR and leaving it 5-5 with no SR on both sides (but your SRer is dead).

    Machamp- Win, but it's tenuous. Easy 3HKO from DynamicPunch, so you either have to not lay down SR (and not SRing on turn 1 is basically guaranteeing you'll never get it), and you're slow enough that you have to deal with Confusion hax. The only way this set wins is if it doesn't get Confused or CHed in its first two turns (SR and Explosion). If you straight explode without laying down SR, it's a tie leaning toward loss, since it's 5-5, but now you have no SR.

    Aerodactyl: Loss. Aerodactyl owns you. Stone Edge is a 2HKO, Rock Slide is a 3HKO with chance to flinch. It can taunt your SR, and then there's really nothing Torkoal can do to it.

    Metagross: Win, I guess. EQ can't 2HKO with Leftovers, and Fire Blast has its number. Still, there's always the trusty SR and switch out deal.

    Swampert: Straight up loss. Your only way to pose a threat is Explosion, which doesn't even KO, while EQ wins.

    Infernape: It taunts you, then lays SR (or doesn't), and switches out. Tie (nobody gets SR), but definitely not a win.

    Heatran: Earth Power 2HKOs while you can't OHKO back. Straight loss.

    Jirachi: Win/tie. Tricked scarf renders Torkoal useless.

    Ninjask: "wat"

    Roserade: Sleep Powder, TSpikes, go to a ghost. Loss.

    This lead is terrible, and it also has no real midgame potential as a spinner, defender, or attacker due to its SR weakness, terrible typing, and lack of speed.

    QC REJECTED (1/3)
  12. Deinosaur

    Deinosaur world's dumbest valedictorian
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Aug 21, 2010
    We are starting to see a lot of theorymoned leads, and this is one of them. It really doesn't work in any way as a lead or anywhere else.
    Sorry dude.
  13. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Jan 1, 2009
    I've said this a thousand times, and I'll repeat it again: the fact that a Pokemon learns Trick, Stealth Rock, or any other form of *useful* move that can be employed in the lead position does not mean that the Pokemon in question should get an analysis on the site. There are a lot of things to consider besides this when it comes to making a lead set for a Pokemon, folks.

    In this case, in Torkoal's case, I have to admit that the idea doesn't seem too bad from a quick glance, but an in-depth analysis reveals that this isn't an effective lead. Seven Deadly Sins' leads revision made a lot of good points, proving that in fact Torkoal doesn't fare well against common leads. This, added to the fact that Torkoal doesn't have any midgame potential, has made me decide to disapprove this set. Nevertheless, I do enjoy the enthusiasm you've put in the creation of this thread, and I can only suggest you to try it again at a different time with a different proposal.

    QC REJECTED (2/3)
  14. panamaxis

    panamaxis how many seconds in eternity?
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Aug 30, 2008
    QC REJECTED (3/3)
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