Tornadus (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by JRank, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. JRank

    JRank
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    Tornadus

    [Overview]

    <p>One of the three "genies" introduced this generation, the pure Flying-type Tornadus is suited to setting up Tailwind. Its ability, Prankster, allows non-attacking moves to gain +1 priority. This allows it to set up Tailwind with ease, and Taunt Trick Room users. It also has a powerful STAB Acrobatics which hits many Pokemon in VGC 11 for super effective damage.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tailwind
    move 1: Tailwind
    move 2: Acrobatics
    move 3: Taunt / Hammer Arm
    move 4: Protect / Substitute
    item: Flying Gem
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to set up Tailwind and stop opposing users of Tailwind and Trick Room from setting up their respective strategies. Tailwind doubles the Speed of Tornadus's teammates for 3 turns. Acrobatics OHKOes non-Coba Berry Amoonguss, Whimsicott, and Virizion. Taunt stops other Tornadus from setting up Tailwind, and can shut down Whimsicott and Pokemon that set up Trick Room. Protect stalls out Trick Room and protects Tornadus while its partner takes out a threat. Substitute can be used, however, to stall out Trick Room for more than one turn since it can be used consecutively. Hammer Arm hits Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon for super effective damage, and if Trick Room goes up, it can bring down Tornadus's Speed, and make it "faster".</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread maximizes Tornadus's Attack and Speed to hit as hard as possible. Jolly nature allows Tornadus to outspeed as many enemies as possible. Flying Gem gives Acrobatics 247 base power the first turn it is used, and once it is used, doubles its 55 Base Power.</p>

    <p>Tornadus benefits from having a partner with Fake Out, such as Mienshao, to keep it from being Taunted and to stop other Tailwind users. Mienshao also provides Wide Guard support, stopping Pokemon such as Terrakion from hitting Tornadus with Rock Slide. Haxorus benefits immensely from Tailwind, allowing it to outspeed threats such as Hydregion and utilize its base 147 Attack stat to tear through the opponent. Terrakion has good synergy with Tornadus, taking out Rock- and Electric-types with Close Combat and Earthquake, while Tornadus takes out the Fighting-types that threaten Terrakion.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Taunt / Tailwind
    move 4: Protect / Substitute
    item: Damp Rock / Focus Sash
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to set up Rain Dance, an almost forgotten strategy in VGC 2011, and sweep with it. Hurricane gains 100% accuracy in rain, and with the STAB boost, wrecks almost everything. Taunt stops other set-up moves such as Tailwind or Trick Room. Substitute can keep Tornadus alive longer so it can keep firing off STAB Hurricanes, but Protect can be useful if it gets double-targeted. Because Seismitoad is the only Swift Swim Pokemon in VGC 2011, Rain Dance teams can struggle to outspeed and utilize their powerful Water-type attacks. Tailwind can be used to remedy this problem, though you will be unable to stop opposing Whimsicott from setting up their own Tailwind.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Damp Rock keeps Rain Dance up for 8 turns, but is not absolutely necessary, as VGC battles often last 5 turns or less. If you choose not to run Damp Rock, Focus Sash allows Tornadus to stay alive an additional turn and get off one more Hurricane. If Focus Sash is used, however, Substitute should not be used because the Focus Sash will be negated by the use of Substitute. The EV spread allows Tornadus to hit as hard and as fast as it can. The choice of nature is one between power and speed. If Tornadus uses a Modest nature, it runs the risk of being outsped by opposing Tornadus and getting Taunted.</p>

    <p>Thundurus partners well with this set, as it can fire off a 100% accurate STAB Thunder under rain. Fake Out support, though not needed, is helpful in setting up rain. Amoonguss would make a good partner, as it can use Rage Powder to let Tornadus set up Rain Dance, use Substitute, and start using Hurricane in complete safety. Amoonguss's weakness to Fire-type attacks is also cut in half during rain, making it much more difficult to take out.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A specially-based set with Air Slash / Grass Knot / Dark Pulse / Tailwind is viable, but with Acrobatics's great power, a physical set is generally recommended. Brick Break is an alternative to Hammer Arm if the 90% accuracy and Speed drop is an issue, but the loss in power is so noticeable that Hammer Arm is preferred. An EV spread of 134 HP / 124 Atk / 252 Spe allows Tornadus to OHKO opposing 4 / 0 Tornadus' and provides more bulk. Hidden Power Ice may be used to check opposing Thundurus that want to switch in and smack Tornadus with Discharge or Thunderbolt.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Terrakion threatens Tornadus with STAB Rock Slide, and while Tornadus can use Hammer Arm, Terrakion often carries Focus Sash which would negate Tornadus's attempts to OHKO it. Thundurus is a hard counter to Tornadus with Thunderbolt and Discharge, while Tornadus doesn't even 2HKO it with Acrobatics. Under Trick Room Jellicent can outspeed Tornadus and KO it with Ice Beam or Blizzard. Gigalith can take a Hammer Arm with its high Defense and KO back with STAB Rock Slide. Most of these threats are remedied by Tornadus having Terrakion as a partner, however.</p>
  2. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    Talked this over a bunch with JRank on irc, he fixed everything I mentioned so QC Approved 1/2
  3. Human

    Human

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    For the Tailwind Set up I would put Protect for the third slot and make the fourth slot Substitute / Hammer Arm. Mention Taunt in Other Comments due to inconsistency because of Mental Herb.
  4. Alakapimp

    Alakapimp All washed up
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    I disagree with Human. I think the ordering of the slashes is fine. I especially think Taunt should not be relegated to OO. Taunt is still one of Tornadus' most valuable moves, even if some people opt to run mental herb. You're focusing too much on little back and forth things, and need to look at the bigger picture. Most people won't be using mental herb, especially in the real thing, and Taunt is a valuable attack to have.

    Basically, you need to stop looking so much at metagaming the online metagame, and see the bigger picture.
  5. Human

    Human

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    I have forgot about how Mental Herb is mainly used on the online metagame as well as Amoonguss, but a lot of the time these people are unpredictable and even if you would think that they are using Trick Room from your experiences online you can be completely off which makes me think that Taunt is not the best move in the VGC and in the later rounds the metagame becomes more like the online metagame which leads me to believe that Taunt is not to be relied on too much.

    Another reason is that if it is against Tornadus they can just attack and KO it and you risk a speed tie at the same time which makes it extremely inconsistent, Whimsicott outspeeds most of the time meaning it is better to attack it and Trick Room is not really known because you can not be sure that they are using Trick Room.
  6. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    Mental Herb should at least be mentioned somewhere, because it completely destroys Taunt as a strategy. I don't believe it's in the analysis once. EDIT: I mean on other pokemon. The possibility that Musharna and whatnot might carry Mental Herb isn't mentioned, and it definitely should be, because it makes Taunt useless.

    Hammer Arm doesn't OHKO Terrakion, so it doesn't need a Focus Sash to survive it, as you imply in the Checks and Counters section. Also, running max HP as so many do, Gigalith is hardly ever 2HKOed by Hammer Arm, so it doesn't need Sturdy to survive it, which is implied in the Checks and Counters section.

    Hidden Power Ice allows it to check Thundurus, as you mention in Other Options, but with at least 84 Special Attack EVs with a Timid nature, it also allows it to take out 4 HP Landorus, when its strongest move otherwise, Jolly Flight Jewel Acrobatics, only has ~10% chance to KO Landorus. An Adamant Flight Jewel Acrobatics only has a 61.5% chance to OHKO Landorus.
  7. DALE DANGERDONG

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    QC Approved 2/2
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  9. Calm Pokemaster

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    [Overview]

    <p>One of the three "genies" introduced this generation, the pure Flying-type Tornadus is suited to setting up Tailwind. Its ability, Prankster, allows non-attacking moves to gain +1 priority. This allows it to set up Tailwind with ease, and Taunt Trick Room users. It also has a powerful STAB Acrobatics which hits many Pokemon in VGC 11 for super effective damage.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tailwind
    move 1: Tailwind
    move 2: Acrobatics
    move 3: Taunt / Hammer Arm
    move 4: Protect / Substitute
    nature: Jolly
    item: Flight Gem
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to set up Tailwind and stop opposing Tailwind and Trick Room users of Tailwind and Trick Room from setting up their respective strategies. Tailwind, obviously, sets up Tailwind, doubles every Pokemon's speed for the Speed of Tornadus's teammates for 3 turns. Acrobatics OHKOes non-Coba Berry Amoonguss, Whimsicott, and Virizion. Taunt stops other Tornadus's from setting up their Tailwind, and can shut down Whimsicott and Trick Room Pokemon that set up Trick Room. Protect stalls out Trick Room, or and protects Tornadus while its partner takes out a threat. Substitute can be used, however, to stall out Trick Room for more than one turn since it can be used consecutively. Hammer Arm hits Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon for super effective damage, and if Trick Room goes up, it can bring down Tornadus's Speed, and make it "faster".</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread maximizes Tornadus's Attack and Speed to hit as hard as possible. Jolly nature allows you Tornadus to outspeed as many enemies as possible and get off a fast Taunt or Tailwind. Flight Gem gives Acrobatics 247 Base Power the first turn it is used, and once it is used, it is gone doubling doubles Acrobatics's its 55 Base Power.</p>

    <p>Tornadus benefits from having a partner with Fake Out, such as Mienshao, to keep it from getting Taunted and stopping other Tailwind users. Mienshao also provides Wide Guard support, stopping such Pokemon such as Terrakion from Rock Sliding hitting Tornadus with Rock Slide. Haxorus gets a boon benefits immensely from Tailwind, allowing it outspeed normal threats such as Hydregion and utilize its base 147 Attack stat to tear through the opponent. Terrakion has good synergy with Tornadus, taking out Rock- and Electric-types with Close Combat and Earthquake, while Tornadus takes out the Fighting-types that threaten Terrakion.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Protect / Substitute
    nature: Timid / Modest
    item: Damp Rock / Focus Sash
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to set up Rain Dance, an almost forgotten strategy in VGC 2011, and sweep with it. Hurricane gains 100% accuracy in rain, and with the STAB boost, it wrecks almost everything. Taunt stops other set-up moves such as Tailwind or Trick Room. Substitute can keep Tornadus alive longer so it can keep firing off STAB Hurricanes, but Protect can be useful if it gets double-targeted.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Damp Rock keeps Rain Dance up for 8 turns, but isn't absolutely needed with VGC battles often lasting 5 turns or less. If you don't want Damp Rock is found to be unnecessary, Focus Sash allows Tornadus to stay alive an additional turn and get off one more Hurricane. If Focus Sash is used, however, Substitute should not because the Focus Sash will be negated by the use of Substitute. The EV spread allows Tornadus to hit as hard and as fast as it can. The nature choice of nature depends on if you want more is one between power and speed. If Tornadus uses a Modest nature, it runs the risk of getting outsped by opposing Tornadus' and getting Taunted.</p>

    <p>Thundurus partners well with this set, as it can fire off a 100% accurate STAB Thunders when Rain is up under rain. Fake Out support, though not needed, is helpful in setting up rain. Amoonguss would make a good partner, as it can use Rage Powder to let Tornadus set up Rain Dance, use Substitute, and start using Hurricane in complete safety. Amoonguss's prime weakness to Fire-type attacks is also cut in half during rain, making it much more difficult to take out.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>A specially-based set with Air Slash / Grass Knot /Dark Pulse / Tailwind (spacing) is viable, but with Acrobatics's great power, a physical set is generally recommended. Brick Break is an alternative to Hammer Arm if you don't like the 90% accuracy and Speed drop is an issue, but the power loss in power is so noticeable that Hammer Arm is preferred. An EV spread of 134 HP/ 124 Atk / 252 Spe lets Tornadus OHKO 4 / 0 opposing 4 / 0 Tornadus and provides more bulk. Hidden Power Ice could be used to check Thundurus' that want to switch in and Discharge or Thunderbolt smack Tornadus with Discharge or Thunderbolt.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Terrakion threatens Tornadus with a STAB super effective Rock Slide, and while Tornadus can use Hammer Arm, Terrakion often carries Focus Sash which would negate this Tornadus's attempts to OHKO it. Thundurus is a hard counter to Tornadus with Thunderbolt and Discharge, while Tornadus doesn't even 2HKO it with Acrobatics. Under Trick Room, Jellicent threatens with can outspeed Tornadus and KO it with Ice Beam or Blizzard. Gigalith has Rock Slide and can take a Hammer Arm with its high Defense, and KO back with STAB Rock Slide. Most of these threats are remedied by a Terrakion partner Tornadus having Terrakion as a partner, however.</p>


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  10. JRank

    JRank
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    All changes made, done! :D
  11. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer pewpewpew
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    This is really late, and I apologize for that, but I think Tailwind should be mentioned in the Rain Dance set. Because Seismitoad is the only Swift Swimmer of the allowed Pokemon, it can be hard for a Rain team to be fast enough to work well against goodstuffs or opposing Tailwind teams. For example, while Basculin is certainly a powerful attacker, it has to rely upon Aqua Jet to avoid being outsped and KOed due to its poor Speed, making it far less effective than with a Tailwind boost.

    Also in OO:
  12. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
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    Just spotted this:

    Should be Flying-type.

    and

    Should be a powerful STAB Acrobatics

    To ensure that there are no further errors, please go through my check and see if you didn't make any other changes. Good job otherwise.
  13. JRank

    JRank
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    Oops, sorry. Fixed and I'll give TW a mention.
  14. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Missing an s

  15. Eraddd

    Eraddd One Pixel
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    Looking at the previous GPs, you did not even implement many of their changes, or did it improperly. I suggest you first read their checks carefully, modify your set accordingly, and then implement some of my additions.
  16. JRank

    JRank
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    I think I got all of these changes made, please point out ones I didn't. On some of your changes, Eraddd, when I implemented the things I left out from Calm_Pokemaster's check (how did I do that O__O), changes you had suggested were in sentences that I had deleted so I didn't make the changes, obviously.

    EDIT: @Havak I changed it, thanks!
  17. Havak

    Havak I'm the Best. You're a Towel.
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    'Flight Gem' is actually 'Flying Gem' in the games.
  18. shllybkwrm

    shllybkwrm

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    "Tailwind doubles the Speed of Tornadus's teammates for 3 turns."

    It's actually bumped up to 4 turns in Gen V.
  19. JRank

    JRank
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    Thanks, fixed it.

    No, it got a bump from 2 turns to 3 turns. The first turn Tailwind is used the Speed stat of your team is not affected, so while it may be up from turn 1 to turn 4, you're only getting the boost for turns 2, 3, and 4.
  20. 13Random37

    13Random37

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    Since smogondex says it is 3 turns, it should be 4 turns for Gen5, so should say 4, maybe with a different explanation.

    I would slash in substitute in move 3, since Protect and Substitute will allow you to stall out Tailwind or Trick Room better.


    /e: of course I know, that it's actual speed boost is just for 3 turns, but in the smogon dex, it says 3 turns for gen4 and therefore it should be 4 turns for gen5 here.
  21. evan

    evan I did my best -- I have no regrets
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    it's up for 4 turns including the turn it's used. So you have three turns of actual use out of Tailwind.
  22. JRank

    JRank
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    Posting tentatively to say I *think* I managed to find and fix all the mistakes I had made from the previous GP Checks. Evidently, in a few cases I either didn't make a change at all, or made the change incorrectly. I apologize for this glaring error and I would greatly appreciate it that, if additional errors are noticed, they are pointed out to me. Sorry for hastily making the changes and doing it incorrectly.
  23. Human

    Human

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    Now I think that because VGC 2011 is finally over I can say my Bulky Tornadus EV spread for everyone who doesn't know it yet.

    228 HP / 84 Def / 180 Atk / 4 SpD / 12 Spe.

    This survives Samurott Ice Beam + Aqua Jet. Terrakion Rock Slide + Quick Attack. Opposing Jolly Tornadus Acrobatics and can OHKO back with your own. 3HKOd by Scrafty Crunch. For the most part even survives Guts Boosted Conkeldurr Rock Slide + Mach Punch, they need to get max damage rolls for both attacks.

    This can get Tailwind up multiple times in a game, stalls very well against Trick Room with Sub Protect.

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