1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Tornadus-T (Ubers Analysis) GP (2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by polop, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    [​IMG]
    A totally inferior Gyarados
    Skeleton (open)

    [Overview]
    • Immune to residual entry hazard damage, thanks to regenerator, will always recover health when switching out (can't get worn out)
    • FAST, Base 121 > Arceus, GREAT CHECK TO GRASS ARCEUS!
    • Mediocre strength, great STAB,
    • Strongest move has 70% accuracy + is weather reliant
    • FRAGILE, don't expect it to live anything
    • Needs Specs or LO to get decent power
    • Competition from Skymin

    [SET]
    name: Life Orbed Attacker
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast / Superpower
    move 3: Grass Knot / U-turn
    move 4: Taunt
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Why it should be on site:
    • Immune to entry hazards + extremely fast Taunt = excellent stall breaker.
    • Strong Hurricane isn't as strong as specs but it still hits a lot of stuff neutrally, not much will enjoy it.
    • Capable of beating Blissey with Superpower
    • Ferrothorn hates going against this in either weather, dislikes Hurricane, OHKOed by Life Orbed Heat Wave in non-rainy weathers
    • Not inferior to Arceus-Flying thanks to movepool + ability.
    • Heat Wave, Regenerator, Superpower, Taunt and U-turn distinguish it from Skymin

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p></p>
    • Life Orb recoil isn't too problematic with regenerator healing you. Gives Tornadus-T the ability to switch moves.
    • Also patches up Tornadus-T's low SpA problem
    • Still breaks stall, possibly even better then specs, Taunt helps.
    • Hurricane = nuke in rain
    • Focus Blast / Superpower = coverage, latter utterly trolls chansey, blissey, and ttar, everything else hit harder by focus miss.
    • Heat Wave lets you murder Ferrothorn, U-turn lets you scout and gets you the advantage if you catch your enemy trying to force a Double Switch, works really well with Taunt.
    • Taunt gives you a chance vs. Giratina-a and Chansey, also assists in breaking stall and lets you lol at Ferrothorn using Power Whip. HP Ice kills Rayquaza (who you ironically have trouble hitting)

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p></p>
    • Zekrom = Great partner! The two get great type-synergy and really Tornadus-T can never ever break past giratina (which Zekrom breaks). Also uber Volt-turn chain = made.
    • NEEDS KYOGRE, not using rain with this thing is a terrible idea.
    • Swift Swim users also pair up nicely with this guy, it can break some stuff with that Hurricane or lure and take out Ferrothorn, allowing something else (like Kingdra) to clean up.
    • Yes I copied and pasted what was in AC of specs.
    • Entry Hazards are useful, stall dislikes them.
    • MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT USING AN INFERIOR SKYMIN PLEASE.
    • If your using Toxic Spikes and can spin easily don't use this... please Skymin's Air Slash abuse is too good to pass up in that case. In this case Air Slash beats both Chansey and acts as a Taunt + Fake Out of of higher SpA and speed.
    • Heat Wave is an easier way to beat Ferrothorn
    • HP Ice is a much more reliable way of taming Rayquaza.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Heat Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Ice / Air Slash
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Why it should be on site:
    • Immune to entry hazards -> Stall has trouble touching this.
    • Specs Hurricane hits a lot of stuff neutrally, not much will enjoy it but its bearable.
    • Capable of beating Blissey with Superpower
    • Ferrothorn hates going against this in either weather, 2HKOed by Specs Hurricane, OHKOed by Specs Heat Wave in other weathers
    • Also good for Volt Turn if used
    • Rain stall has nothing on this
    • Heat Wave, Regenerator, Superpower, and U-turn distinguish it from Skymin

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p></p>
    • This looks extremely strong, its not.
    • Patches up Tornadus-T's low SpA problem
    • Combine with speed and Regenerator and you shouldn't have problems switching in and out
    • Not fun at ALL for stall, can't harm it with hazards
    • Hurricane = nuke in rain
    • Focus Blast = coverage
    • Heat Wave lets you murder Ferrothorn, alternatively you can use Superpower to smack Tyranitar and Chansey hard.
    • U-turn lets you switch out and scout, can let you bring your own weather back in. HP Ice kills Rayquaza (who you ironically have trouble hitting), Air Slash is more reliable but WEAK

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p></p>
    • Zekrom = Great partner! The two get great type-synergy and really Tornadus-T can never ever break past giratina (which Zekrom breaks). Also uber Volt-turn chain = made.
    • NEEDS KYOGRE, not using rain with this thing is a terrible idea.
    • Swift Swim users also pair up nicely with this guy, it can break some stuff with that Hurricane or lure and take out Ferrothorn, allowing something else (like Kingdra) to clean up.



    [Other Options]
    <p></p>
    • Substitute - but using it might mean your using an inferior Skymin
    • Grass Knot - hits Groudon hard, who gets rid of sun. Takes a good chunk out of ttar + Hippo
    • Hammer Arm - A worse Superpower, but you might dislike Attack drops
    • Rain Dance - lets you laugh at Groudon and Tyranitar coming in.
    • Hidden Power Fire - A much more accurate alternative to Heat Wave
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Suprisingly difficult to counter, it can just switch-in and out with little effort if you try to revenge it, regaining HP in the process.
    • EASY TO WALL THOUGH, JUST BEWARE OF TAUNT!
    • Giratina-a lols at everything, can phaze it out with Dragon Tail, doesn't like Taunt stopping it from resting though. Lugia is in a similar boat, but has roost and weaker Dragon Tail as well as Multiscale.
    • Arceus-Electric (I don't care if its gimmicky), tanks a hit, can use it for setting up Calm Minds 0_0 and electrocute this thing, it takes advantage of it if it switches out.
    • Zekrom, one of the rare things that can switch-in and take advantage of double switch with Volt Switch.
    • Arceus-Steel (to an extent, Focus Blasts and Heat Waves HURT), Jirachi, Skarmory = check in rain.
    • If no SR Ho-oh and Latias always win vs. Tornadus, Latias takes heavy damage from U-turn though.
    • If its not using Superpower, Chansey.
    • If your trying to revenge this thing its frail, any Choice Scarf user / user of priority / chlorophyll user / sand rush user / Swift swim user in the proper weather barring Shadow Sneak Tina-o (its weak!) will OHKO this thing before it can move, literally.
    • Gyarados has huge bulk, lives Hurricane and can retaliate back with STAB Waterfall or Thunder, both deal massive damage. Choice Band Gyarados can directly OHKO Tornadus-T with Avalanche or Stone Edge while easily survives Hurricane. Triple status Gyarados can easily cripple Tornadus-T with Thunderwave and flinch it to death with Waterfall. It also hurts the enemy switch-in should Tornadus-T decide to switch. (this will unfortunately not be included in the analysis).

    Ready for GP Checks!
    GP: 2/2 Oglemi, melvni
    QC: 3/3 (poppy, trickroom, furry)


    [Overview]

    <p>When looking at Tornadus-T's generally disappointing base stats, one may question why it deserves to be used in the Uber tier. Its Special Attack stat is mediocre at best, lower then every other specially offensive Pokemon in the Uber tier, forcing it to use Choice Specs or Life Orb to gain sufficient power to threaten its foes. To make matters worse, its most powerful STAB move, Hurricane, is largely useless and unreliable outside of rain. On top of this, its Flying typing and underwhelming defenses make killing it easy. So how does Tornadus-T manage to be useful in the Uber tier, threatening both stall and offensive teams alike? The answer is simple: Regenerator.</p>

    <p>Because of Regenerator and an immunity to Spikes, Tornadus-T is the only Pokemon viable in Ubers that regains all HP it lost from entry hazards when switching out of battle. When combined with its high base 121 Speed, which allows it to outspeed Arceus, and its access to Taunt, you have a Pokemon that can break stall at any time of the match, regardless of circumstances. These boons don't make up for all of Tornadus-T's shortcomings, and it faces immense competition as a stallbreaker from Shaymin-S who boasts more Speed and Special Attack, Serene Grace Air Slash, and Leech Seed at the price of Regenerator and Hurricane. However, support it well, use it to its strengths, and you will have a monster on your hands.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb Attacker
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast / Superpower
    move 3: Grass Knot / U-turn
    move 4: Taunt
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tornadus-T's ability to heal all damage from entry hazards simply by switching out, coupled with its ability to release strong Hurricanes, makes it a huge threat to stall teams. Combine this with the ability to prevent the enemy from healing by using Taunt, and you get one of the scariest stallbreakers in the Uber tier. To put icing on the cake, Tornadus-T can combine Regenerator with Life Orb to essentially get a free power boost on all its attacks, as Regenerator will heal Life Orb damage.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is a strong STAB that allows Tornadus-T to dent all walls not named Chansey in the rain as long as they don't resist it. Superpower pairs well with Hurricane coverage-wise, obliterating Blissey and Tyranitar, and when used in conjunction with Taunt, it allows Tornadus-T to remove Chansey from the game. Focus Blast, while it has lower accuracy, lets Tornadus-T hit everything else harder and allows it to OHKO Ferrothorn after it has taken damage from a Hurricane. Grass Knot deals immense damage to Groudon, 2HKOing even the most specially defensive variant. Alternatively, U-turn allows Tornadus-T to take advantage of Regenerator and all the double switches it forces. U-turn also allows Tornadus-T to beat all Latias that run less then 244 HP EVs and try to switch into its Hurricane after taking damage from Stealth Rock. Lastly, Taunt prevents enemy walls from recovering any HP, and also gives Tornadus-T the ability to beat any Giratina lacking Dragon Tail.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Tornadus-T excels at breaking stall and weakening walls, so sweepers, particularly those that enjoy the removal of Grass Arceus, are great partners for it. Since Tornadus-T already requires Kyogre to boost the accuracy of Hurricane, partners with Swift Swim, such as Kingdra, Kabutops, and Omastar, are welcome. These Pokemon can take advantage of a weakened Giratina and Grass Arceus and proceed to sweep the other team. Zekrom deserves a special mention as it can completely eliminate Pokemon Tornadus-T has trouble killing, such as Giratina, Lugia, and Ho-Oh, while also combining its Volt Switch with Tornadus-T's U-turn to form a VoltTurn chain and keep up momentum.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T's ability to force double switches when used in tandem with entry hazards can result in a massive amount of residual damage. Because of this, partners that can supply Tornadus-T with entry hazards are welcome. Deoxys-S in particular can guarantee at least one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock while preventing the loss of momentum due to its high Speed.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T's niche is stallbreaking for a team that has trouble dealing with hazards and cannot provide Toxic Spikes support. If you are able to fit a Pokemon with Rapid Spin on your team and can provide Toxic Spikes support then you may be using an inferior Shaymin-S. In this case, all Tornadus-T boasts over Shaymin-S is Hurricane, Heat Wave, and Taunt. In contrast, Shaymin-S boasts higher Special Attack and Speed as well as a non-weather reliant STAB in the form of Serene Grace Air Slash—which can act as both a Taunt and a STAB move stronger then Hurricane if it successfully flinches an opponent.</p>

    <p>Aside from the moves listed on the main set, Tornadus-T can successfully utilize Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice. The former can wipe out Ferrothorn and Forretress if it isn't raining while the latter easily eliminates Rayquaza. It should be noted, though, that Tornadus-T will find it difficult to use these moves. Forgoing Taunt means that Tornadus-T can no longer beat Giratina without Dragon Tail or prevent other Pokemon from recovering HP. Losing Hurricane means giving up Tornadus-T's strongest STAB while getting rid of Superpower and Focus Blast makes it lose against Tyranitar, Dialga, Chansey, and Blissey. In reality, the only moves Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice can be effectively used over are Grass Knot and U-turn. However, be aware that without these moves Tornadus-T can no longer create a VoltTurn chain with Zekrom or prevent Groudon from switching into it and removing its rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Heat Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Ice / Air Slash
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set attempts to increase Tornadus-T's offensive capabilities so that it can more easily break down walls on stall teams. Unlike most Choice item users, thanks to its effective immunity to hazards, Tornadus-T can switch in and out as it pleases, without having to worry about the recoil from hazard damage stacking. Unfortunately, Tornadus-T's Special Attack is less than impressive; when boosted by Choice Specs, it is still 4 points lower than that of Kyurem-W's unboosted.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is Tornadus-T's strongest STAB move and 2HKOes practically everything that doesn't resist it or have high Special Defense investment. Focus Blast provides necessary coverage, 2HKOing support Dialga and OHKOing Tyranitar with Spikes and a layer of Stealth Rock in the sand. Heat Wave allows Tornadus-T to OHKO Ferrothorn and Forretress in all weathers other than rain. The last moveslot is based on your team's needs. U-turn allows Tornadus-T to scout what will come in and take advantage of Regenerator. Hidden Power Ice allows Tornadus-T to more reliably OHKO Rayquaza, who would otherwise threaten Tornadus-T thanks to Air Lock lowering Hurricane's accuracy and its resistances to Heat Wave and Focus Blast. Lastly, Air Slash serves as a more reliable, albeit weaker, STAB move that Tornadus-T can use in non-rainy weather.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Rain is mandatory for all Tornadus-T, and this set is no exception. Kyogre is crucial for Tornadus-T's success as it increases the accuracy of Hurricane, allowing Tornadus-T to spam the move without much of a worry. Tornadus-T also appreciates Swift Swim partners who can clean up after its work is done. Kabutops, Kingdra, Omastar, and Ludicolo can all sweep an opposing team after Tornadus-T has dealt heavy damage to the enemy's walls with its Choice Specs-boosted, STAB Hurricanes.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T appreciates assistance from Pokemon that can get past Chansey, Lugia, Ho-Oh, specially defensive Latias, and Giratina, as all five avoid being 2HKOed by Choice Specs Hurricane. Zekrom perfectly fits Tornadus-T's needs, OHKOing all five of the aforementioned Pokemon with the combination of STAB Bolt Strike and STAB Outrage. To add to that, Zekrom also gets Volt Switch, meaning it can form a VoltTurn core with Tornadus-T, helping their team get free switches and keep momentum. It's a general rule that all VoltTurn cores appreciate entry hazards, and this core is no exception. Pokemon that excel at laying hazards on the field, particularly Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A, are great partners for it. Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A can ensure that both a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock are on the field while preventing any momentum loss with their high offensive capabilities and their nearly unmatched Speed.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Tornadus-T has a few alternate moves that it could use on certain sets but often can't find a spot for. Substitute allows Tornadus-T to take advantage of double switches and Toxic Spikes, as well as preventing status, but it generally can't find a spot for it, and Shaymin-S can generally utilize Substitute better thanks to its access to Leech Seed. Grass Knot can be used on the Choice Specs set to OHKO Groudon and deal massive damage to Tyranitar and Hippowdon, but Tornadus-T again struggles to find a spot for it as the other moves on the set all serve important roles. Hammer Arm is a worse Superpower since it lowers one of Tornadus-T's strong points, its Speed, but it can be used if you dislike Superpower's Attack drops. Rain Dance can be used in the third slot of the Life Orb set, as it allows Tornadus-T to continue spamming Hurricanes even after Tyranitar and Groudon come in, but most of the time it's better off crippling them with Grass Knot. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire is a more accurate alternative to Heat Wave, but it forces a drop in Tornadus-T's Speed that prevents it from Speed tying with other Tornadus-T.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Countering and revenge killing Tornadus-T is difficult. Its access to Regenerator allows it to fearlessly switch away from any Pokemon that tries to revenge it and come back later to continue to release powerful Hurricanes. Because of this, even the bulkiest revenge killers can get worn down if they continuously switch into moves fired off by Tornadus-T.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T, however, is relatively easy to wall. Specially defensive Giratina, standard Ho-Oh, and Great Wall Lugia avoid getting 2HKOed by every attack Tornadus-T can throw at them if Stealth Rock is not up. Giratina and Lugia can then Dragon Tail Tornadus-T out, regardless of whether or not it packs Taunt, while Ho-Oh can Brave Bird Tornadus-T to its doom. Latias can also check all Tornadus-T, as it is able to avoid being 2HKOed by any of its moves with a defensive spread of 252 HP EVs and 40 Special Defense EVs, but beware as it takes heavy damage from U-turn.</p>

    <p>If you lack a Lugia, Ho-Oh, Latias, or Giratina, you can try to figure out what set Tornadus-T's using and then deduce what moves it is running. If Tornadus-T is not running Superpower, Chansey can switch into Tornadus-T and absorb all of its attacks, retaliating with a 4HKO from Seismic Toss. Beware, though, as Taunt will prevent Chansey from using Softboiled and Regenerator allows Tornadus-T to recover the damage it takes from a single Seismic Toss. If Tornadus-T lacks Heat Wave or is in the rain and lacks Taunt, Jirachi and Skarmory can switch into and inflict status upon Tornadus-T.</p>

    <p>If you lack these Pokemon as well, then you might as well try to have a Pokemon that can tank a hit and kill it. Electric Arceus, Steel Arceus, and Zekrom can switch into Tornadus-T and strike it down with their Judgments and Bolt Strikes, respectively. Beware, though, as Steel Arceus in particular will take huge amounts of damage from Choice Specs Focus Blasts and sun-boosted Heat Waves.</p>

    <p>If all else fails, then you can resort to revenge killing Tornadus-T, but be aware that Tornadus-T can always switch out from whatever Pokemon you try to use. Virtually every Pokemon whose Speed is boosted by a Choice Scarf, Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, or Sand Rush, and anything with a priority move will be able to KO Tornadus-T with a STAB move before it can move. Zekrom deserves a second mention at its ability to revenge kill Tornadus-T. It can use Volt Switch to either scout what Pokemon Tornadus-T may try to switch into or kill Tornadus-T should it decide to stay in.</p>
  2. Alexander.

    Alexander.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,837
    I'd put substitute in OO, with toxic spikes support it's a great set. Also I'd put taunt on primary set
  3. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    I think Taunt might fit better on a Life Orbed set really, which I'll add momentarily. Taunt > Substitute for the most part on this guy IMO, considering he actually gets it lol (even though Regenerator does favor subs, but doesn't Skymin do the whole Toxic Spikes + Sub thing better?). Still putting it in OO, thanks alexander.
  4. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,933
    Life Orb should the first set imo, it abuses Tornadus-T's strengths to their fullest. Great coverage, high speed (letting it use x move then U-Turning out more often than not), access to Taunt (preventing recovery on walls getting hit by hazards and Hurricane), and Regenerator. Specs limits you by disallowing x move + U-Turn, x move + Taunt, which are Tornadus-T's niches. Grass Knot needs a mention on both sets, as it hits Groudon and Kyogre very hard (amongst other things)

    [SET]
    name: Life Orbed Attacker
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast / Superpower
    move 3: Grass Knot / U-Turn
    move 4: Taunt

    should be the slashes, IMO

    Heat Wave and HP Ice mentioned in AC. While they are great moves with a lot of utility, Taunt is what makes Tornadus-T what it is, while most Steels are Taunt bait anyway.
  5. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Set changed to poppys, HP Fire now in OO, Heat Wave and HP Ice moved to AC of LO.

    I'm still iffy on moving HP Ice but its probably my own fear of Rayquaza, I don't know I'd like more QC input on that if its ok, still moved for now though.

    Actually Torny is 2HKOed by every steel except Forry, and it is 2HKOed by that if it runs GYRO Ball,
  6. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,003
    I agree with Life Orb being the first set because I used it with a decent success rate. You should mention U-turn tears off a good chunk out of Latias and Latios, and allows you to retreat safely and abuse Regenerator.

    One of the reasons it isn't outclassed by Shaymin-S is U-turn paired with the awesome ability. For some reasons, Latias likes to come in to tank Hurricanes, this is the time for you to U-turn out. Hurricane + U-turn = a near dead Latias. Specs Tornadus-T obviously can't achieve this.

    Mention Tornadus-T makes a decent Grass Arceus check who would otherwise demolish some rain teams. Shaymin-S's Air Slash is weak :) and is OHKOed by Ice Beam. Taunt Jirachi and U-turn out, Shaymin-S needs Growth + Earth Power to beat Jirachi.

    Superpower hits Tyranitar, Blissey and Chansey harder. The rest: Dialga, Arceus, Heatran, Ferrothorn are hit harder by Focus Blast because of your much higher Special Attack stat although misses sucks.

    Ho-Oh can make a great check with its huge Special Defense, and has Brave Bird to knock out Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T isn't the king of birds in Ubers. Oh, Lugia will check Tornadus-T as well, regardless of Taunt. Non-Dragon Tail Lugia has Ice Beam and those without Ice Beam has Dragon Tail to phaze you out but not kill.

    Jirachi and Skarmory wall both sets. Unless the sun is shining and you have Heat Wave, Hurricane just can't do enough. Specs Focus Blast can 2HKO physically defensive Skarmory though but most are Specially Defensive in Ubers.

    Some Ferrothorn drop Gyro Ball for Power Whip and Forretress does not always carry Volt Switch or Gyro Ball. They are still potential Taunt baits :( Skarmory and Jirachi are halted by Taunt but Jirachi can U-turn out.

    Looks good. QC APPROVED 1/3
  7. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Will mention
    I kinda mentioned that when I ranted about immunity to entry hazard damage. Adding the stuff on Latias though, but Specs Hurricane does a depressing amount... (28.85% - 34.07%), seriously?
    Will mention.
    Mentioning in set comments
    I'll give Ho-oh a special mention, but it can't switch in if rocks are up... Lugia can phaze but it can't really damage it per say, I'll mention it along side Giratina-a.
    Jirachi and Skarmory will be mentioned alongside Arceus-Steel.
    Yeah but more Ferro are running Gyro Ball now due to dramatic increase in Latias usage !_!, also Jirachi has Body Slam and Thunder, its not totally useless.

    Also I'm iffy on running Superpower on the specs set, should I keep it?
  8. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,003
    Life Orb U-turn does 45.9% - 54.1%

    I got 38.5% - 45.9% for Hurricane vs 52 HP EV Latias. Add in SR and Latias is dead, or nearly. Tornadus-T has base 110 SpA still decent to me thanks to Hurricane.

    All calculations assuming Life Orb, Naive Tornadus-T vs 52 HP Latias.

    Max HP Latias takes 38.2% - 45.3% from Specs Hurricane. You must have messed up the calculations, Latias is already holding Soul Dew when you used the suggested moveset.

    Just remove Superpower from Specs set, it is freaking weak without Life Orb and gives a free switch in to everything including Arceus. Focus Blast still does OK damage vs Blissey and Superpower will never murder it anyway without Life Orb.

    Jirachi can Body Slam and Thunder Tornadus-T but some variants carry Thunder Wave/Toxic instead and Iron Head/U-turn. Those are more common actually.
  9. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,933
  10. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,836
    Just leave Gyarados in C&C, goddamn trickroom. While Latias can't switch into Tornadus-T with SR, she shouldn't be disregarded as she easily tanks any of Tornadus-T's attacks and KO back with Thunder while Dragon Pulse and Psyshock do over 65%. She also has Roost to recover the lost health. Seems good,
    [qc]3/3[/qc]

    Last edited by Mr.lol; Oct 11th, 2012 at 9:55:25 AM. Reason: Gyarados rules <-- Couldn't have said it better myself.
  11. giggity69

    giggity69

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    I think superpower should get the first slash because 1) you would be relying on two 70% accurate moves should the weather not be on your side, and 2) the blobs and SpD dialga (your best checks) take more from it; not to mention you won't miss hitting them on the switch. Also, U-turn is way more useful than taunt because almost anything you taunt can OHKO you besides lugia, blobs, and wobbs. Blobs you have SP and the others can't eat LO hurricanes on the switch if rocks are up, and you can just u-turn out, anyway. Ferrothorn, groudon, and forre you could taunt, but 2/3 of them can wreck you with gyro or stone edge (forre rarely carries it now), and you can also just attack them all for a 2HKO. U-turn lets you hit lati@s, run from wobbs, and get momentum, especially with it's speed.

    tl;dr: superpower is more consistent against what you need to hit with it, and U-turn is more useful than taunt.
  12. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,933
    SpD Dialga is not 2HKOed by Superpower, and is 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Focus Blast does more because SpD Dialga's defenses are roughly even and Tornadus-T's special attack is a lot higher. Chansey / Blissey are shut down by Taunt and can easily recover off damage from Superpower should you lack Taunt. Ferrothorn more often carries Power Whip, Groudon eats Grass Knot. Tornadus-T is foremost a stallbreaker and without Taunt will not be able to perform such a role. U-Turn is useful, Taunt is more useful.
  13. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    All right thanks guys for the QC checks! Everything stated earlier has been implemented well with one exception...

    EDIT: OK FINE GYARADOS IS NOT MENTIONED :(

    Also
    I recalced it and am getting something different 0_0, but oh well it doesn't matter, Latias can Roost infront of Torny anyway...

    Will start writing over weekend.
  14. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Necro-bump for GP checks. Sorry about the fact it took so long to write ;_;
  15. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    440
    "It only reaches a mediocre Special Attack stat of 479 with Choice Specs, one point higher then Modest Kyurem-W.</p>"

    Actually Kyurem-W reaches 482 Spatk with Modest nature. Tornadus-T reaches 478 SPatk with Choice Specs not 479. So Tornadus-T's Spatk is actually 4 points lower.

    "<p>Hurricane is Tornadus-T's strongest STAB move, and 2HKOes practically everything that doesn't resist the move or has heavy Special Defense and investment. Focus Blast provides necessary coverage, 2HKOing Support Dialga and OHKOing Tyranitar in the sand. Heat Wave allows Tornadus-T to OHKO Ferrothorn and Forretress in all weathers barring Rain. The last moveslot is based on the teams needs. U-turn allows Tornadus-T to scout what will come in and abuse Regenerator, and is also ironically Tornadus-T's strongest move against Latias"

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Focus Blast in Sandstorm vs 252HP/180SpDef Leftovers Levitate Tyranitar (+SpDef): 89% - 104% (360 - 424 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 31% chance to OHKO.
    Choice Specs Focus Blast doesnt always KO.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs 252HP/0SpDef Soul Dew Levitate Latias (Neutral): 38% - 45% (139 - 165 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    0Atk Tornadus Therian (Neutral) U-turn vs 252HP/0Def Soul Dew Levitate Latias (Neutral): 30% - 36% (112 - 132 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    Hurricane does more damage. So the part about U-turn is false.

    Why isnt Ho-Oh mentioned as a counter in the set comments/additional comments of the LO/Specs set when you mention other Pokemon such as Latias who die from SR+Hurricane+U-turn?
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs 252HP/80SpDef Soul Dew Ho-Oh (Neutral): 40% - 48% (169 - 201 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    It can switch in, recover, and then use Brave Bird to KO it.
    176Atk Ho-Oh (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 74% - 88% (223 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    This is a very likely KO with SR vs Specs. Against the LO set, three LO recoils from Hurricanes will cause Tornadus-T to die to Brave Bird.

    Another thing, how is Zekrom not a counter?
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Hurricane vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Zekrom (Neutral): 38% - 45% (131 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Tornadus Therian (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Zekrom (Neutral): 43% - 50% (175 - 206 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    The second calc is for HC Zekrom while the first one assume Scarf Zekrom. Bolt Strike does:
    252Atk Teravolt Zekrom (+Atk) Bolt Strike vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 208% - 246% (626 - 738 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
  16. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Um that was me being stupid x_x, I'll fix that right away.

    You forgot to factor Choice Specs lol, here's the proper calc :P. 252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar: 532-628 (131.68 - 155.44%).

    Um look at trickroom's post, I get calcs similar to yours but he got completely different calcs. I'm confused.

    I'll move up Zekrom in counters and mention it alongside Arceus-Electric and Steel. Its in their as a special check due to Volt Switch. I'll also add Zekrom in AC. Ho-oh was already mentioned in checks and counters. I didn't really mention it much because of SR but I guess since Lugia is mentioned I'll throw that in too in AC.

    Thanks for the nitpicks :P.

    EDIT: Tasks listed in this post are now done :P.
  17. Stellar

    Stellar
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Little Cup Pope

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Messages:
    3,700
    He is correct about Focus Blast vs Tyranitar. You didn't factor in sandstorm.

    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 360-424 (89.1 - 104.95%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
  18. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Nevermind then, I'll fix that. Sorry about that Stellar and ankirahman1995.

    EDIT: Fixed
  19. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    440
    The U-turn/Hurricane vs Latias..---> Trickroom provided the calculations for the LO set vs Latias; SR+Hurricane+U-turn can KO Latias, U-turn is the strongest move vs Latias. For the Specs set, Hurricane is the strongest move vs Latias.

    Mention the Chansey can only take hits but cannot do anything back. Taunt prevents healing so Chansey cannot do heal or thunder wave Tornadus-T. The 4hko from Seismic toss is meaningless when you can just switch out to regain HP after a couple of Superpower+Taunt.
  20. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Ok, U-turn on Choice Specs is fixed. I thought my mentioning of Taunt giving it a chance against Giratina-a and Chansey everywhere except checks and counters might be enough x_x, still added that Chansey is rendered near useless by Taunt in Check and Counters.
  21. melvni

    melvni
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,148
    Amateur GP check. Take whatever you think is useful from it.
    Additions in Blue
    Subtractions in Red
    Comments in Purple

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>When looking at Tornadus-T's disappointing base stats, one may question why it deserves to be used in the Uber tier. Its Special Attack stat is mediocre at best, lower then every other Specially Offensive specially offensive Pokemon in the Uber tier, forcing Tornadus to use Choice Specs or Life Orb to gain sufficient power to threaten its foes. To make things worse, its STAB Hurricane, its most powerful STAB move, Hurricane, requires rain to gain accuracy, and is largely useless and unreliable otherwise outside of rain. On top of this, its Its Flying-type and underwhelming Defenses make killing the bird it easy. Then So how does this great bird Tornadus-T manage to soar over the Uber tier (add comma) and threaten threatening both stall and offensive teams alike? The answer is simple; (change to colon) Regenerator.</p>

    <p>Because of Regenerator (add comma) allows Tornadus-T to become is the only Pokemon that will always regain HP when switching out in of battle, regardless of the hazards on its side of the field. Combine this with its Its high base 121 Speed, which allows it to end the lives of weakened Arceus. (change to comma) Combine this with and its access to Taunt, and you have a Pokemon that can break stall at any time of the match, regardless of any circumstances. These boons don't make up for all of Tornadus-T's shortcomings though, and it faces immense competition as a stall breaker with stallbreaker from Shaymin-S, who boasts more Speed, Special Attack, Serence Grace Air Slash, and Leech Seed at the price of Regenerator. All in all, Tornadus-T is Tornadus-T. Support it well, use it to its strengths, and you will have a monster in on your hands.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orbed Orb Attacker
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast / Superpower
    move 3: Grass Knot / U-turn
    move 4: Taunt
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Regenerator (I'm pretty sure you only need these when there's more than one ability to choose from)
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tornadus-T's immunity to damage from hazards coupled with its ability to release strong Hurricanes make it a huge threat to stall. Combine this with the ability to prevent the enemy from healing, thanks to Taunt, and you get one of the scariest stall breakers stallbreakers in the game. To add icing to the cake, Tornadus-T can combine Regenerator with Life Orb to essentially get a "free power boost" to its attacks.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is a strong STAB that allows Tornadus-T to dent all walls not named Chansey in the rain. Superpower pairs well with Hurricane coverage-wise, (or another phrasing if you prefer, this just looked like a bit of a run on sentence with the bit about coverage at the end) obliterates Blissey and Tyranitar instantly, (remove comma) and (add comma) when used in conjunction with Taunt, allows Tornadus-T to remova remove Chansey from the game, all while pairing up Tornadus-T's coverage needs. Focus Blast, while it has lower accuracy, lets you Tornadus-T hit everything else harder and allows you it to OHKO Ferrothorn after it has taken a Hurricane. Grass Knot deals immense damage to Groudon, 2HKOing even the most Specially Defensive variant. U-turn allows Tornadus-T to take advantage of Regenerator and all the double switches it forces. It also allows it to beat all Latias that try to switch into its Hurricane. Lastly, Taunt prevents enemy walls from recovering any HP, giving Tornadus-T the ability to beat Giratina-a Giratina lacking Dragon Tail.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Tornadus-T excels at breaking stall and weakening walls, so sweepers, particularly those that enjoy the removal of Grass Arceus, are great partners for Tornadus-T it. Swift Swim users like Kingdra, Kabutops, and Omastar can take advantage of a weakened Giratina-a Giratina or Grass Arceus and proceed to sweep the other team. Zekrom deserves a special mention as it can completely rid Giratina-a eliminate Pokemon Tornadus-T has trouble killing such as Giratina, Lugia, Ho-oh, and Zekrom from the match, Pokemon Tornadus-T will have trouble killing, while also combining his access to its Volt Switch with Tornadus-T's U-turn to form a Volt-turn VoltTurn chain and keep up momentum, and therefore, preventing momentum from getting lost once it has been obtained (once again, its your call, but this also seemed like it was becoming a bit of a run on sentence).</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T's ability to force double switches when used in tandem with entry hazards can result in a mass of residual damage. Therefore; Because of this, partners that can supply Tornadus-T with entry hazards are welcome. Deoxys-S, (remove comma) in particular, (remove comma) can guarantee at least one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock while preventing the loss of momentum.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T's niche is stall breaking stallbreaking for a team that has trouble dealing with hazards and cannot provide Toxic Spikes support. If you are able to easily rid the field of hazards and can provide Toxic Spikes support then you may be using an inferior Shaymin-S. In this case, all the Tornadus-T boasts over Shaymin-S is Hurricane, Heat Wave (add comma) and Taunt. In contrast, Shaymin-S in exchange boasts higher Special Attack, (remove comma) Speed and as well as a non-weather reliant STAB in the form of Serence Serene Grace Air Slash-- (remove space) which can act as both a Taunt and a STAB move stronger then Hurricane if it successfully flinches an opponent.</p>

    <p>Aside from the moves listed on the main set Tornadus-T can successfully utilize Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice. The former can wipe out Ferrothorn and Forretress in the sun while the latter easily to eliminates Rayquaza. It should be noted though that Tornadus-T will find it difficult to use these moves. Forgoing Taunt means that you Tornadus-T can no longer beat Giratina-a Giratina or stop the recovery of HP from prevent other Pokemon recovering HP. Losing Hurricane means you just lost your giving up Tornadus-T's strongest STAB while getting rid of Superpower and Focus Blast makes you lose it loses against Tyranitar, Dialga, Chansey, and Blissey. The only true move In reality, the only moves it can be effectively used over is are Grass Knot and U-turn, (start new sentence) beware though as However, be aware that without these moves Tornadus-T can now no longer create a Volt-turn VoltTurn chain with Zekrom or prevent Groudon from switching into it and removing its Rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Heat Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Ice / Air Slash
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set attempts to increase Tornadus-T's offensive capabilities so that it can more easily break down walls from on stall teams. Thanks to its effective immunity to hazards, Tornadus-T can switch in and out as it pleases, without having to worry about the recoil from hazard damage stacking-- (remove space) a problem that bothers other users of Choice Specs, Scarf, and Band. Beware however, (change to colon) while Tornadus-T's Special Attack is bolstered by Choice Specs, it still isn't the most impressive nuke that exists. It only reaches a mediocre Special Attack stat of 478 with Choice Specs, four points lower then Modest Kyurem-W.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is Tornadus-T's strongest STAB move, (remove comma) and 2HKOes practically everything that doesn't resist the move or has heavy have high Special Defense and heavy investment. Focus Blast provides necessary coverage, 2HKOing Support Dialga and OHKOing Tyranitar with Spikes and a layer of Stealth Rock in the sand. Heat Wave allows Tornadus-T to OHKO Ferrothorn and Forretress in all weathers barring Rain. The last moveslot is based on the teams needs. U-turn allows Tornadus-T to scout what will come in and abuse take advantage of Regenerator. Hidden Power Ice allows Tornadus-T to more reliably OHKO Rayquaza, who would otherwise annoy Tornadus-T thanks to Air Lock lowering Hurricanes accuracy and its resistance to Heat Wave and Focus Blast. Lastly, Air Slash serves as a more reliable, albeit weaker, STAB move that Tornadus-T can use in non-rainy weather.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Rain is mandatory for all Tornadus-T, and this set is no exception. Kyogre is crucial for Tornadus-T as it increases the accuracy of Hurricane, allowing Tornadus-T to more easily spam the move and take down its foes. Tornadus-T also appreciates Swift Swim partners who benefit from the presence of rain to clean up after its work is done (you can put something else instead of the words I added if you want, but it seemed a bit unnecessary to say "Swift Swim partners who benefit from the presence of rain" since I don't think there's anything with Swift Swim that doesn't). Kabutops, Kingdra, Omastar, and Ludicolo can all sweep an opposing team after Tornadus-T has dealt heavy damage to the enemy's walls with its Choice Specs boosted, (remove comma) STAB Hurricanes.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T appreciates assistance from Pokemon that can break past get past / break Chansey, Lugia, Ho-oh, Zekrom and Giratina-a Giratina, as all three of them avoid being 2HKOed by Choice Specs Hurricane. Zekrom perfectly fits Tornadus-T's needs, OHKOing all five of the aforementioned Pokemon with the combination of STAB Bolt Strike and STAB Outrage. To add to that, Zekrom also gets Volt Switch, meaning it can form a Volt-turn VoltTurn core with Tornadus-T, helping the their team using Tornadus-T get free switches and keep momentum. Its It's a general rule that all Volt-turn VoltTurn cores appreciate entry hazards, and this core is no exception. Pokemon that excel at laying hazards on the field, in particular Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A, are great partners for Tornadus-T. Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A can ensure that both a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock are on the field while preventing any momentum loss with their high offensive capabilities.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Tornadus-T has a few alternate moves that it can could use on certain sets that it simply but often can't find the spot to use for. Substitute allows Tornadus-T to take advantage of double switches, (remove comma) and Toxic Spikes, and prevent as well as preventing status, but it generally can't find the spot to use it and Shaymin-S generally can utilize Substitute better thanks to its access to Leech Seed. Grass Knot can be used as on the Choice Specs set to OHKO Groudon and deal massive damage to Tyranitar and Hippowdon, but Tornadus-T again struggles to find a spot to use it as the other moves on the set all serve important roles. Hammer Arm is a worse Superpower since it lowers one of Tornadus-T's strong points, its Speed, but it can be used if you dislike Superpower's attack Attack drops. Rain Dance allows Tornadus-T to continue spamming Hurricanes even after Tyranitar and Groudon come in, but most of the time your it's better of crippling them with Grass Knot. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire is a much more accurate alternative to Heat Wave, but it forces a drop in Tornadus-T's Speed stat that prevents it from speed tying with other Tornadus-T (nothing else has Tornadus-T's speed tier, and it outspeeds max speed base 120's by 3 when running max speed itself).</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Countering and revenging Tornadus-T is difficult. Its access to Regenerator allows it to fearlessly switch away from any Pokemon it fears that may try to revenge it (add comma) and it can come back later to release more powerful Hurricanes. In this sense Because of this, even the bulkiest revenge killer can get worn out, continuously coming in to switching into moves fired off by Tornadus-T.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T, however, is easy to wall. Specially Defensive Giratina-a Giratina, Standard Ho-oh (add comma)and Great Wall Lugia avoid getting 2HKOed by every attack Tornadus-T throws can throw at them if Stealth Rock is not up. Giratina-a Giratina and Lugia can then Dragon Tail Tornadus-T out, regardless of whether or not the bird it packs Taunt (add comma) while Ho-oh can Brave Bird Tornadus-T to its doom. Latias can also check Tornadus-T should Stealth Rock not be up, but beware as it takes heavy damage from U-turn.

    <p>If you lack a Lugia, Ho-oh, Latias (add comma) or Giratina-a Giratina, you can try to figure out what set its Tornadus-T's using and deduce what moves Tornadus-T runs it is running. If Tornadus-T is not running Superpower (add comma) Chansey can switch-in to switch into Tornadus-T and absorb every attack all of its attacks, retaliating with a 4HKO from Seismic Toss. Beware though as Taunt will prevent it Chansey from using Softboiled and Regenerator allows Tornadus-T to Recover recover the damage it takes from a single Seismic Toss. If Tornadus-T lacks Heat Wave or is in the Rain and lacks Taunt, Jirachi and Skarmory can switch into and inflict status upon Tornadus-T.</p>

    <p>If you lack these Pokemon (add comma) then you might as well try to have a Pokemon that can tank a hit and kill it. Arceus-Electic, Arceus-Steel, and Zekrom can switch into Tornadus-T and strike the bird it down with their Judgments and Bolt Strikes respectively. Beware though, as the Arceus-Steel will take huge amounts of damage from Choice Specs Focus Blasts and Sun-boosted Heat Waves.</p>

    <p>If you lack any of these Pokemon (add comma) then you can resort to revenging Tornadus-T, but be aware that Tornadus-T can always switch out from whatever move you try to use. Virtually every pokemon Pokemon whose Speed is paired up with boosted by a Choice Scarf, Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, or Priority will be able to KO Tornadus-T with a STAB move before it can move. Zekrom, (remove comma) deserves a second mention at its ability to here as it can still revenge kill Tornadus-T if its HP is too low to switch into Tornadus-T's attacks (I could be misinterpreting what you're saying (and my apologies if that's the case), but I feel like there isn't a need to mention Zekrom again unless it's in the context of it still being able to revenge kill Tornadus-T even if its low on health, since you talked about things that can take a hit and KO in the previous paragraph). It can use Volt Switch to either scout what Pokemon Tornadus-T may try to switch into or kill Tornadus-T should it stay in.</p>
  22. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    @Melvini, I'll implement your check tommorow. Its a bit large and its getting late here... I'll edit this post when I finish the task :P.

    EDIT: Ok implemented everything except that last section on Zekrom. The only reason why Zekrom was mentioned in that last paragraph was because of its access to Volt Switch. With Volt Switch, Zekrom can take advantage of a fleeing Tornadus-T and transfer momentum since Zekrom can scout the switch. If Tornadus-T stays in, it gets OHKOed. Zekrom's ability to force that scenario was why it was put there :P.
  23. Superimp

    Superimp

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    Messages:
    62
    Tornadus-T versus Latias

    I noticed how there was a bit of an issue concerning the Tornadus-T / Latias calculations, so I recalculated them for your benefit. Use this information as you will for the set comments, checks / counters, etc. regarding Latias.

    NOTE: As the EVs for the Latias sets are currently undergoing review as seen from the end of this post, only the bare minimum EVs to ensure survival against Tornadus-T will be given.

    ----------------------

    Life Orb Attacker Tornadus-T (Timid nature)

    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 121-144 (35.58 - 42.35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    0- Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Latias: 130-153 (38.23 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    12.5 + 45 + 42.35 = 99.85​

    Any Latias that has 156 HP EVs with a Timid nature and above will always be able to survive the Stealth Rock, Hurricane, and U-turn combination. The sets capable of this feat are the Specially Defensive, Defensive Calm Mind, and (Bulkiest variant) All-Out Attacker sets.

    Life Orb Attacker Tornadus-T (Naive nature)

    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 121-144 (33.42 - 39.77%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Latias: 146-172 (40.33 - 47.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    12.5 + 39.77 + 47.51 = 99.78​

    Any Latias that has 244 HP EVs with a Timid nature and above will always be able to survive the Stealth Rock, Hurricane, and U-turn combination. The sets capable of this feat are the Specially Defensive and (Aside from the least bulky variant) Defensive Calm Mind sets.

    Choice Specs Tornadus-T (Timid OR Naive nature)

    0- Atk Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 100-118 (27.47 - 32.41%) -- 77.29% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 Atk Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 112-132 (30.76 - 36.26%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Soul Dew Latias: 135-159 (37.08 - 43.68%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Any Latias that has 252 HP / 40 SpD EVs with a Timid nature and above will always be able to survive the Stealth Rock / Hurricane combination. The only set capable of this feat is the Specially Defensive set (Admittedly, the Defensive Calm Mind set also works though she has a small chance of being 2HKOed after SR by Hurricane).

    ----------------------​

    Hope this helps Mr.lol.

    EDIT: Formatting should hopefully be fixed now.
  24. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    Fixed / added some information on Latias's viability as a check based on Superimp's calculations. Thank you for the revised calculations Superimp :P.
  25. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,484
    amateur check incoming.
    Add
    Remove
    (comments)

    Show Hide

    [Overview]

    <p>When looking at Tornadus-T's generally disappointing base stats, one may question why it deserves to be used in the Uber tier. Its Special Attack stat is mediocre at best, lower then every other specially offensive Pokemon in the Uber tier, forcing Tornadus to use Choice Specs or Life Orb to gain sufficient power to threaten its foes. To make things worse its most powerful STAB move, Hurricane, is largely useless and unreliable outside of rain. On top of this, its Flying-type and underwhelming Defenses make killing it easy. So how does Tornadus-T manage to soar over be useful in (I see that there is flavor in “soar over” but the sentence is oddly structured)the Uber tier, threatening both stall and offensive teams alike? The answer is simple: Regenerator.</p>

    <p>Because of Regenerator and an immunity to spikes, Tornadus-T is the only Pokemon viable in ubers that will always that regains all HP it lost from entry hazards when switching out of battle, regardless of the hazards on its side of the field. Combine this When combined with its high base 121 Speed, which allows it to end the lives of weakened outspeed Arceus (add comma)and its access to Taunt, and you have a Pokemon that can break stall at any time of the match, regardless of circumstances. These boons don't make up for all of Tornadus-T's shortcomings though, and it faces immense competition as a stallbreaker from Shaymin-S, who boasts more Speed, Special Attack, Serene Grace Air Slash, and Leech Seed at the price of Regenerator and Hurricane. All in all, Tornadus-T is Tornadus-T. (that part is redundant) support it well, use it to its strengths, and you will have a monster on your hands.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb Attacker (is “Attacker needed?” Its implied from the item choice)
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast / Superpower
    move 3: Grass Knot / U-turn
    move 4: Taunt
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tornadus-T's immunity to damage from hazards ability to heal all damage from entry hazards simply from switching out coupled with its ability to release strong Hurricanes make it a huge threat to stall. Combine this with the ability to prevent the enemy from healing, thanks to by using Taunt, and you get one of the scariest stallbreakers in the game the Uber tier. To add icing to the cake, Tornadus-T can combine Regenerator with Life Orb to essentially get a "free power boost" to its attacks, as Regenerator will heal Life Orb damage. (I just elaborated why here, but feel free to word it a different way)</p>

    <p>Hurricane is a strong STAB that allows Tornadus-T to dent all walls not named Chansey in the rain as long as they don’t resist it. Superpower pairs well with Hurricane coverage-wise(add comma) obliterating OHKOing Blissey and Tyranitar instantly, (remove comma) and when used in conjunction with Taunt, it allows Tornadus-T to remove Chansey from the game. Focus Blast, while it has lower accuracy, lets Tornadus-T hit everything else harder and allows it to OHKO Ferrothorn after it has taken a damage from Hurricane. Grass Knot deals immense damage to Groudon, 2HKOing even the most Specially Defensive variant. Alternately, U-turn allows Tornadus-T to take advantage of Regenerator and all the double switches it forces. U-turn also allows Tornadus-T to beat all Latias that run less then than 244 HP EVs that try to switch into its Hurricane after taking damage from Stealth Rock. Lastly, Taunt prevents enemy walls from recovering any HP, giving and also gives Tornadus-T the ability to beat any Giratina lacking Dragon Tail.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>(Kyogre is not listed as a partner on this set, although it is crucial for it. Be sure to add it somewhere) Tornadus-T excels at breaking stall and weakening walls, so sweepers, particularly those that enjoy the removal of Grass Arceus, are great partners for it. Swift Swim users like Kingdra, Kabutops, and Omastar can take advantage of a lack of Giratina or and Grass Arceus and proceed to sweep the other team. Zekrom deserves a special mention as it can completely eliminate Pokemon Tornadus-T has trouble killing such as Giratina, Lugia, and Ho-oh, and Zekrom (mirror match) while also combining its Volt Switch with Tornadus-T's U-turn to form a VoltTurn chain and keep up momentum.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T's ability to force double switches when used in tandem with entry hazards can result in a massive amount of residual damage. Because of this, partners that can supply Tornadus-T with entry hazards are welcome. Deoxys-S in particular can guarantee at least one layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock while preventing the loss of momentum due to its high speed.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T's niche is stallbreaking for a team that has trouble dealing with hazards and cannot provide Toxic Spikes support. If you are able to easily rid the field of hazards fit a Pokemon with Rapid Spin on your team and can provide Toxic Spikes support then you may be using an inferior Shaymin-S. In this case, all Tornadus-T boasts over Shaymin-S is Hurricane, Heat Wave, and Taunt. In contrast, Shaymin-S boasts higher Special Attack, Speed as well as a non-weather reliant STAB in the form of Serene Grace Air Slash--which can act as both a Taunt and a STAB move stronger then Hurricane if it successfully flinches an opponent.</p>

    <p>Aside from the moves listed on the main set Tornadus-T can successfully utilize Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice. The former can wipe out Ferrothorn and Forretress in the sun if it isn’t raining (you don’t need the sun to do that) while the latter easily eliminates Rayquaza. It should be noted though that Tornadus-T will find it difficult to use these moves. Forgoing Taunt means that Tornadus-T can no longer beat Giratina without Dragon Tail or prevent other Pokemon from recovering HP. Losing Hurricane means giving up Tornadus-T's strongest STAB while getting rid of Superpower and Focus Blast makes it lose against Tyranitar, Dialga, Chansey, and Blissey. In reality, the only moves it can be effectively used over are Grass Knot and U-turn. However, be aware that without these moves though as Tornadus-T can now no longer create a VoltTurn chain with Zekrom or prevent Groudon from switching into it and removing its Rain.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Hurricane
    move 2: Focus Blast
    move 3: Heat Wave
    move 4: U-turn / Hidden Power Ice / Air Slash
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Timid / Naive (since U-turn gets the first slash isn’t Naive better?)
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set attempts to increase Tornadus-T's offensive capabilities so that it can more easily break down walls on stall teams. Thanks to its effective immunity to hazards, Tornadus-T can switch in and out as it pleases, without having to worry about the recoil from hazard damage stacking--, which is a problem that bothers holds back other Choice item users of Choice Specs, Scarf, and Band. Beware however: Unfortunately, while Tornadus-T's Special Attack is bolstered by Choice Specs, it’s special attack still isn't the that impressive, as most impressive nuke that exists. It it only reaches a mediocre Special Attack stat of 478 with Choice Specs, four points lower then than an unboosted Modest Kyurem-W.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is Tornadus-T's strongest STAB move and 2HKOes practically everything that doesn't resist the move or have has a high Special Defense with heavy investment. Focus Blast provides necessary coverage, 2HKOing Support Dialga and OHKOing Tyranitar with Spikes and a layer of Stealth Rock in the sand. Heat Wave allows Tornadus-T to OHKO Ferrothorn and Forretress in all weathers barring Rain. The last moveslot is based on teams team’s needs. U-turn allows Tornadus-T to scout what will come in and take advantage of Regenerator. Hidden Power Ice allows Tornadus-T to more reliably OHKO Rayquaza, who would otherwise annoy threaten Tornadus-T thanks to Air Lock lowering Hurricanes Hurricane’saccuracy, as well as and its resistances to Heat Wave and Focus Blast. Lastly, Air Slash serves as a more reliable, albeit weaker, STAB move that Tornadus-T can use in non-rainy weather.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Rain is mandatory for all Tornadus-T, and this set is no exception. Kyogre is crucial for Tornadus-T as it increases the accuracy of Hurricane, allowing Tornadus-T to more easily spam the move without much of a worry and take down its foes. Tornadus-T also appreciates Swift Swim partners who can clean up after its work is done. Kabutops, Kingdra, Omastar, and Ludicolo can all sweep an opposing team after Tornadus-T has dealt heavy damage to the enemy's walls with its Choice Specs boosted, STAB Hurricanes.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T appreciates assistance from Pokemon that can get past Chansey, Lugia, Ho-oh, Zekrom and Giratina, as all threefour avoid being 2HKOed by Choice Specs Hurricane. Zekrom perfectly fits Tornadus-T's needs, OHKOing all five of the aforementioned Pokemon with the combination of STAB Bolt Strike and STAB Outrage (mentions again that Zekrom beats Zekrom, hence the removal). To add to that, Zekrom also gets Volt Switch, meaning it can form a VoltTurn core with Tornadus-T, helping their team get free switches and keep momentum. It's a general rule that all VoltTurn cores appreciate entry hazards, and this core is no exception. Pokemon that excel at laying hazards on the field, in particularly Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A, are great partners for Tornadus-T. Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A can ensure that both a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock are on the field while preventing any momentum loss with their high offensive capabilities and their nearly unmatched speed.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Tornadus-T has a few alternate moves that it could use on certain sets but often can't find the spot for. Substitute allows Tornadus-T to take advantage of double switches, (remove comma) and Toxic Spikes, as well as preventing status, but it generally can't find the spot to use it and Shaymin-S generally can utilize Substitute better thanks to its access to Leech Seed. Grass Knot can be used on the Choice Specs set to OHKO Groudon and deal massive damage to Tyranitar and Hippowdon, but Tornadus-T again struggles to find a spot to use it as the other moves on the set all serve important roles (shouldn’t that go in the Specs section?). Hammer Arm is a worse Superpower since it lowers one of Tornadus-T's strong points, its Speed, but it can be used if you dislike Superpower's Attack drops. Rain Dance allows Tornadus-T to continue spamming Hurricanes even after Tyranitar and Groudon come in, but most of the time it's better of crippling them with Focus Blast and Grass Knot, respectively. Lastly, Hidden Power Fire is a more accurate alternative to Heat Wave, but it forces a drop in Tornadus-T's Speed that prevents it from Speed tying with other Tornadus-T.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Countering and revenging Tornadus-T is difficult. Its access to Regenerator allows it to fearlessly switch away from any Pokemon it fears may try to revenge it, and it can come back later to continue to release more powerful Hurricanes. Because of this, even the bulkiest revenge killers can get worn out if they continuously switching into moves fired off by Tornadus-T.</p>

    <p>Tornadus-T, however, is relatively easy to wall. Specially Defensive Giratina, Standard Ho-oh, and Great Wall Lugia avoid getting 2HKOed by every attack Tornadus-T can throw at them if Stealth Rock is not up. Giratina and Lugia can then Dragon Tail Tornadus-T out, regardless of whether or not it packs Taunt, while Ho-oh can Brave Bird Tornadus-T to its doom. Latias can also check all Tornadus-T, as it is able to avoid being 2HKOed by any of its moves with a defensive spread consisting of 252 HP EVs and 40 Special Defense EVs (is that the standard set?), but beware as it takes heavy damage from U-turn.</p>

    <p>If you lack a Lugia, Ho-oh, Latias (add comma) or Giratina, you can try to figure out what set Tornadus-T's using and then deduce what moves it is running. If Tornadus-T is not running Superpower, Chansey can switch into Tornadus-T and absorb all of its attacks, retaliating with a 4HKO from Seismic Toss. Beware though as Taunt will prevent Chansey from using Softboiled and Regenerator allows Tornadus-T to recover the damage it takes from a single Seismic Toss. If Tornadus-T lacks Heat Wave or is in the Rain and lacks Taunt, Jirachi and Skarmory can switch into and inflict status upon Tornadus-T.</p>

    <p>If you lack these Pokémon as well, then you might as well try to have a Pokemon that can tank a hit and kill it. Arceus-Electic, Arceus-Steel, and Zekrom can switch into Tornadus-T and strike it down with their Judgments and Bolt Strikes respectively. Beware though, as Arceus-Steel in particular will take huge amounts of damage from Choice Specs Focus Blasts and Sun-boosted Heat Waves (is this a likely scenario?).</p>

    <p>If you lack any of these Pokémon If all else fails, then you can resort to revenging Tornadus-T, but be aware that Tornadus-T can always switch out from whatever move Pokemon you try to use. Virtually every Pokemon whose Speed is boosted by a Choice Scarf, Swift Swim,Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, or anything with a Priority move will be able to KO Tornadus-T with a STAB move before it can move. Zekrom deserves a second mention at its since it has the ability to revenge kill Tornadus-T. It can use Volt Switch to either scout what Pokemon Tornadus-T may try to switch into or kill Tornadus-T should it decide to stay in.</p>

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)