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Tornadus (Ubers Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2011.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    [​IMG]
    http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/tornadus

    QC Approved: Fireburn, trickroom
    GP Approved: Fatecrashers, NixHex

    [Overview]

    <p>Although Tornadus may seem like an odd choice for the Ubers metagame, it makes an excellent supporter thanks to priority Tailwind, which doubles its teammates' Speed for a short interval. This allows slow, heavy hitters to smash through their usually faster checks. STAB Hurricane is also an appealing move, given the abundance of Kyogre in Ubers, and with a Life Orb equipped, Tornadus is capable of 2HKOing many threats, making switching into it a daunting prospect. Tornadus does not come without flaws, though; it has a horrible defensive typing, no reliable recovery, and a weakness to Stealth Rock. Still, Tornadus provides a rather unique form of support, and is definitely worth a look for its ability to completely retake the momentum of a match.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Uber Tailwind
    move 1: Tailwind
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Focus Blast / Hammer Arm
    move 4: Grass Knot / U-turn / Taunt
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Prankster, Tornadus can use priority Tailwind before the opponent can react, and as such can end an opponent's sweep or set up a teammate's at any moment. For example, Tornadus can use Tailwind against a +1 Rayquaza, allowing a partnered Dialga to OHKO Rayquaza after Tornadus dies, ending Rayquaza's sweep. There are a few Speed investment benchmarks that should be kept in mind when building a team with Tornadus in it. Pokemon with Base 90 Speed need to invest 124 EVs in Speed in order to outpace Timid Choice Scarf Palkia while Tailwind is in effect. Similarly, a Speed-boosting nature and 204 Speed EVs allow teammates to outspeed Choice Scarf Shaymin-S and anything below it.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is Tornadus's most powerful STAB move, and it can 2HKO many Ubers when boosted by a Life Orb. It is recommended that Kyogre be partnered with Tornadus in order to give Hurricane perfect accuracy. Focus Blast helps to deal with the ever-present Ferrothorn, and to an extent Dialga, but Hammer Arm is an option if Chansey and Blissey are a concern; in this case, a Rash or Naive nature should be used. Grass Knot nails Groudon and Kyogre, which is important because Groudon can rob Tornadus of its accurate Hurricanes. U-turn allows Tornadus to bring a sweeper out immediately after using Tailwind, while Taunt can be used to shut down any boosting or phazing attempts, and block status moves as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because Tornadus outspeeds a majority of the Ubers metagame, a Modest nature is preferred for the boost in power. A Timid nature is still an option if Choice Scarf-less Palkia and Lugia are a concern outside of Tailwind. The EVs are standard fare for a special attacker. Although the boost Life Orb provides is necessary for some KOs, using Leftovers is an option for greater longevity. Hidden Power Ice is Tornadus's strongest move against Zekrom, and also provides a more reliable way to kill Rayquaza, who negates Hurricane's accuracy boost in the rain with Air Lock. Hidden Power Rock is also an option for nailing Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Kyogre should be paired with Tornadus so that Hurricane can be used freely, but if Kyogre is not being used then Air Slash, although much weaker than Hurricane, can be used to ensure that Tornadus has a reliable STAB move. Stealth Rock support is great for guaranteeing some KOs, but Tornadus doesn't appreciate Stealth Rock on its own side, so packing a Rapid Spinner such as Forretress or Excadrill is recommended. Powerful Choice item users make good teammates. Choice Specs Kyogre and Choice Specs Zekrom are both incredibly powerful, and can spam their strongest STAB moves with little risk. Pokemon like these become exponentially more dangerous while Tailwind is in effect, capable of sweeping through teams that rely on faster Pokemon to revenge kill them.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Substitute can be used to scout and block status moves. Torment neuters Choice item users and Toxic provides a last-ditch option for crippling a sweeper. A pair of Choice Specs can be equipped to increase the damage output of Hurricane, but this does not turn any notable 2HKOs into OHKOs, so they are not worth the loss of the ability to use Tailwind freely. A Bulk Up set using Flight Gem and Acrobatics is an option, but it is generally too weak, and Tornadus lacks reliable recovery so it can't survive for long anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>When dealing with Tornadus, it is much more important to have methods for dealing with the Tailwind recipients. Paralysis works well in this regard. Phazing moves and Protect help to stall out Tailwind's turns. ExtremeSpeed users can nail Tornadus before it can use Tailwind. If Thundurus wins a Speed tie, it can block Tailwind with Taunt. Another option is using Snatch to steal Tailwind. In terms of actual counters, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi can shrug off Hurricanes and force Tornadus out. Zekrom walls Tornadus if it lacks Hidden Power Ice, and can outspeed and OHKO Tornadus with Bolt Strike if Zekrom is using a Choice Scarf. Chansey and Blissey wall it completely if Tornadus doesn't carry Hammer Arm. Skarmory walls Tornadus if it opts to use Hammer Arm over Focus Blast, but Skarmory greatly fears Taunt. Although not checks per se, Groudon and Rayquaza can rob Tornadus of its perfect accuracy Hurricanes through their respective abilities.</p>
  2. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    I fought one of these on the ladder immediately after Tobes posted his skeleton and it works nicely. Setting up slower sweepers ESPECIALLY Specs Kyog and Ho-Oh is a god sent ability. However you might want to name this thing Ubers Life. But it still seems fine at the moment. Also you should include the Bulk Up set mentioned by Fireburn since Shrang said it might work. The exact set is

    name: Bulk Up
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Acrobatics
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Return / U-turn
    item: Flying Gem
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    -Also why is Air Slash slashed over Hurricane ? Air Slash is really weak and STAB 100% accurate hurrican is the only reason you would ever use Tornadus is Ubers. Air Slash seems AC material imo.
    -Grass Knot probably shouldnt be a last slash since it destroys Groudon who can change the weather and leave you with two moves having a measly 70% chance of hitting.
  3. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    Air Slash is for use if you don't want to run Kyogre. I considered putting Grass Knot in the same slot as the Fighting moves so I guess I'll have a slash in both slots if no one objects.

    I've been very impressed by Tornadus from playtesting. barry hit the nail on the head on how Choicemons are really fucking dangerous with Tailwind up. I'm going to keep the name as is because Tailwind is really the reason to use Tornadus in the first place. I guess I could slash lefties in if QC thinks that's a good idea.

    Bulk up looks kinda neat so I might try that.
  4. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Nah, don't slash GK with the Fighting moves, you need that coverage. If anything, make it the primary slash in the 3rd slot.

    Also, please move Air Slash to AC as its just waaaaaaaaaaaay too weak - Tornadus works best in a Rain team, anyway.
  5. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    IIRC when I was still working on Tornadus, I thought that Bulk Up was AC material. Without a Life Orb, +1 Acrobatics (Even at 110 BP) wasn't doing that much, while Brick Break does absolutely nothing to Steel-types.

    Specs deserves a set, IMO, for the reason on how damn powerful Hurricane is. Nothing much else to say o_0
  6. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    I ran some calcs and got Fireburn's input from his experience with Specs, and it was agreed upon that it's underwhelming in Ubers (hell of an OU sweeper though, I can definitely say that much), especially since it can't safely Tailwind.

    As for BU Tornadus I never got around to testing it because I just feel that there are too many common circumstances that make it useless (physical walls with Dragon Tail, fast special attackers, etc). Throw in lack of reliable recovery and no Leftovers and I'm having a hard time convincing myself it can work.
  7. Fireburn

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    Yeah it was a just kind of a "lets see how this works". Its probably OO material at best.

    Oh yeah, mention Hidden Power Ice in the AC since its your strongest attack against Zekrom.

    EDIT- Okay...

    Blissey/Chansey wall you if you lack Hammer Arm.
    Zekrom walls you if you lack HP Ice.

    Embargo doesn't even merit an OO mention. Instead mention Substitute. Tornadus can use it to scout, shield from status, and thanks to Prankster it gets Priority.

    Mention HP Rock to kill Ho-Oh, Acrobatics alongside Bulk Up. Also mention Toxic in OO since Tornadus can use it with priority as a last ditch attempt to cripple something.

    QC APPROVED (1/2)
  8. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Is this thing worth using? The ones I saw suck against me bar hax and confusion. Jirachi and Bronzong own you too besides the counters listed. Steel Arceus walls you bar Focus Blast which is shaky and doesn't KO Arceus anyway.

    Giratina beats it, especially Specially Defensive variants. Kyogre owns you too unlike Thundurus. So what this thing can do Thundurus fails? Besides OHKOing Grass Arceus...

    Thundurus beats Ho-OH, Lugia, Kyogre, Steel Arceus, some others, has more resistance and better coverage.

    [​IMG]
    QC APPROVED (2/2)
  9. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    LO Modest Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP/12 SpDef Giratina - 45.9% - 54.3% (Guaranteed 2HKO after SR - Giratina must be Specially Defensive to counter Tornadus)
    LO Modest Tornadus Hurricane vs 252 HP Lugia - 45% - 53.4% (2HKO after SR, Lugia is in no way a counter to Tornadus)
    LO Modest Tornadus Hurricane vs 252 HP Ho-Oh - 45% - 53.4% (Same as Lugia - possible OHKO after SR, Ho-Oh can only counter Tornadus if SR isn't up.)
    LO Modest Tornadus Hurricane vs 252 HP Kyogre - 50.9% - 60.1% (2HKO)

    9.9

    Tornadus's main appeal comes from his ridiculously strong, easily spammable Hurricane, and priority Tailwind - which can easily turn a game by instantly giving you the offensive momentum. Groudon also doesn't like coming in on Tornadus to change the weather because, unlike Thundurus, it isn't immune to Tornadus's main STAB attack.
  10. trickroom

    trickroom
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    OK, so you do roughly half of Lugia's health. Lugia can come in on the turn you set up Tailwind and wall you to death bar hax. Ice Beam is a 2HKO with LO recoil. Kyogre comes in on Tailwind which is the first move you will use, survives one Hurricane and OHKOes you. I don't think Hurricane is an easily spammable move since it misses a lot in the sun. Groudon is still very common as far as I know.

    I am not doubting it's effectiveness but you overrated it a bit :P ( I approved it anyway) Missing Metagross as a check too. CB Meteor Mash will OHKO.

    I think Specs set deserves more mention or a set. It can 2HKO offensive Dialga lol with Hurricane. Also it outspeeds non Mixed Palkia, while Hurricane does tons of damage, with specs you can 2HKO Ho-Oh better. Tornadus is frail too so getting a turn to set up Tailwind might be hard,
  11. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Tailwind isn't always the first move you have to use. Since Tornadus gets priority on Tailwind, its better suited to use if the opponent is about to revenge Tornadus, so he can instantly swing the offensive momentum back into your favor. Early game, Tornadus is probably going to be spamming Hurricane, so Lugia and Kyogre can't come in safely.

    Groudon also isn't a reliable switch into Tornadus since Hurricane does a ton and Grass Knot will OHKO it.

    Specs doesn't push many 2HKOes into OHKOes (or 3HKOes into 2HKOes), and priority Tailwind is one of Tornadus's main niches.
  12. kc4444

    kc4444

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    Amateur GP Check

    Blue - Add
    Red - Remove
    Black - Comments

    Show Hide



    I believe i should give a GP Stamp. With all the mentions of hidden powers, maybe hidden power should be slashed into the set, and more comments made about it.
  13. Fatecrashers

    Fatecrashers acta est fabula
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    tornadus nadus nadus

    [​IMG]

    GP CHECK 1/2

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    [Overview]

    <p>Although Tornadus may seem like an odd choice for the Ubers metagame, it makes an excellent supporter thanks to priority Tailwind, which doubles its teammates' speed for a short interval. This allows slow, heavy hitters to smash through their usually faster checks. STAB Hurricane is also an appealing move, given the abundance of Kyogre in Ubers, and with a Life Orb equipped Tornadus is capable of 2HKOing many threats, making switching into it a daunting prospect. Tornadus does not come without flaws, though; it has a horrible defensive typing, no reliable recovery, and a weakness to Stealth Rock. Still, Tornadus provides a rather unique form of support, and is definitely worth a look for its ability to completely retake the momentum of a match.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Ubers Tailwind
    move 1: Tailwind
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Focus Blast / Hammer Arm
    move 4: Grass Knot / U-turn / Taunt
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Prankster, Tornadus can use priority Tailwind before the opponent can react, and as such can end an opponent's sweep or set up a teammate's at any moment. For example, Tornadus can use Tailwind against a +1 Rayquaza, allowing a partnered Dialga to OHKO Rayquaza after Tornadus dies, thus ending Rayquaza's sweep. There are a few Speed investment benchmarks that should be kept in mind when building a team with Tornadus in it. Pokemon with Base 90 Speed need to invest 124 EVs in Speed in order to outpace Timid Choice Scarf Palkia while Tailwind is in effect. Similarly, a Speed-boosting nature and 204 Speed EVs allow teammates to outspeed Choice Scarf Shaymin-S and anything below it.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is Tornadus's most powerful STAB move, and it can 2HKO many Ubers when boosted by a Life Orb is equipped. It is recommended that Kyogre be partnered with Tornadus in order to give Hurricane perfect accuracy. Focus Blast helps to deal with the ever-present Ferrothorn, and to an extent Dialga, but Hammer Arm is an option if Chansey and Blissey are a concern, in which case a Rash or Naive nature should be used. Grass Knot nails Groudon and Kyogre, which is important because Groudon can rob Tornadus of its accurate Hurricanes. U-turn allows Tornadus to bring a sweeper out immediately after using Tailwind, while Taunt can be used to shut down any boosting or phazing attempts, and block status moves as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because Tornadus outspeeds a majority of the Ubers metagame, a Modest nature is preferred for the boost in power. A Timid nature is still an option if Choice Scarf-less Palkia and Lugia are a concern outside of Tailwind. The EVs are standard course fare for a special attacker. Although the boost Life Orb provides is necessary for some KOs, using Leftovers is an option for greater longevity. Hidden Power Ice is Tornadus's strongest move against Zekrom, and also provides a more reliable way to kill Rayquaza, who negates Hurricane's accuracy boost in the rain with through Air Lock. Hidden Power Rock is also an option for nailing Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Kyogre should be paired with Tornadus so that Hurricane can be used freely, but if Kyogre is not being used then Air Slash, although much weaker than Hurricane, can be used to ensure that Tornadus has a reliable STAB move. Rapid Spinners such as Forretress and Excadrill are also appreciated. Stealth Rock is also appreciated for guaranteeing some KOs. Stealth Rock support is great for guaranteeing some KOs, but Tornadus doesn't appreciate Stealth Rock on its own side, so packing a Rapid Spinner, such as Forretress or Excadrill, is recommended. Powerful Choice item users make good teammates; Choice Specs Kyogre and Choice Specs Zekrom are both incredibly powerful, and can spam their strongest STAB moves with little risk. Pokemon like these become exponentially more dangerous while Tailwind is in effect, and they become capable of sweeping through teams that rely on faster Pokemon to revenge kill them.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Substitute can be used to scout and block status moves. Torment neuters Choice item users. Toxic provides a last-ditch effort option for crippling a sweeper. A pair of Choice Specs can be equipped to increase the damage output of Hurricane, but this does not turn any noticeable notable 2HKOs into OHKOs, so they are not worth the loss of the ability to use Tailwind freely. A Bulk Up set using Flight Gem and Acrobatics is an option, but it is generally too weak, and Tornadus lacks reliable recovery so it can't survive for long anyway. Torment neuters Choice item users.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>When dealing with Tornadus, it is much more important to have methods for dealing with the Tailwind recipients. Paralysis works well in this regard. Phazing moves and Protect help to stall out Tailwind's turns. ExtremeSpeed users can nail Tornadus before it can use Tailwind. If Thundurus wins a Speed tie it can block Tailwind with Taunt. Another option is using Snatch to steal Tailwind. In terms of actual counters, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi can shrug off Hurricanes and force Tornadus out. Zekrom walls Tornadus if it lacks Hidden Power Ice, and can outspeed and OHKO Tornadus with Fusion Bolt if Zekrom is using a Choice Scarf. Chansey and Blissey wall it completely if Tornadus doesn't carry Hammer Arm. Although not checks per se, Groudon and Rayquaza can rob Tornadus of its perfect accuracy Hurricanes through their respective abilities.</p>


    [​IMG]
  14. NixHex

    NixHex musty_yugoslavian_teacher
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    Show Hide

    [Overview]


    <p>Although Tornadus may seem like an odd choice for the Ubers metagame, it makes an excellent supporter thanks to priority Tailwind, which doubles its teammates' speed for a short interval. This allows slow, heavy hitters to smash through their usually faster checks. STAB Hurricane is also an appealing move, given the abundance of Kyogre in Ubers, and with a Life Orb equipped,(comma) Tornadus is capable of 2HKOing many threats, making switching into it a daunting prospect. Tornadus does not come without flaws, though; it has a horrible defensive typing, no reliable recovery, and a weakness to Stealth Rock. Still, Tornadus provides a rather unique form of support, and is definitely worth a look for its ability to completely retake the momentum of a match.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Ubers Tailwind
    move 1: Tailwind
    move 2: Hurricane
    move 3: Focus Blast / Hammer Arm
    move 4: Grass Knot / U-turn / Taunt
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Modest / Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Prankster, Tornadus can use priority Tailwind before the opponent can react, and as such can end an opponent's sweep or set up a teammate's at any moment. For example, Tornadus can use Tailwind against a +1 Rayquaza, allowing a partnered Dialga to OHKO Rayquaza after Tornadus dies, ending Rayquaza's sweep. There are a few Speed investment benchmarks that should be kept in mind when building a team with Tornadus in it. Pokemon with Base 90 Speed need to invest 124 EVs in Speed in order to outpace Timid Choice Scarf Palkia while Tailwind is in effect. Similarly, a Speed-boosting nature and 204 Speed EVs allow teammates to outspeed Choice Scarf Shaymin-S and anything below it.</p>

    <p>Hurricane is Tornadus's most powerful STAB move, and it can 2HKO many Ubers when boosted by a Life Orb. It is recommended that Kyogre be partnered with Tornadus in order to give Hurricane perfect accuracy. Focus Blast helps to deal with the ever-present Ferrothorn, and to an extent Dialga, but Hammer Arm is an option if Chansey and Blissey are a concern,;(semicolon, no comma) in which this case,(comma) a Rash or Naive nature should be used. Grass Knot nails Groudon and Kyogre, which is important because Groudon can rob Tornadus of its accurate Hurricanes. U-turn allows Tornadus to bring a sweeper out immediately after using Tailwind, while Taunt can be used to shut down any boosting or phazing attempts, and block status moves as well.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Because Tornadus outspeeds a majority of the Ubers metagame, a Modest nature is preferred for the boost in power. A Timid nature is still an option if Choice Scarf-less Palkia and Lugia are a concern outside of Tailwind. The EVs are standard fare for a special attacker. Although the boost Life Orb provides is necessary for some KOs, using Leftovers is an option for greater longevity. Hidden Power Ice is Tornadus's strongest move against Zekrom, and also provides a more reliable way to kill Rayquaza, who negates Hurricane's accuracy boost in the rain with Air Lock. Hidden Power Rock is also an option for nailing Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Kyogre should be paired with Tornadus so that Hurricane can be used freely, but if Kyogre is not being used then Air Slash, although much weaker than Hurricane, can be used to ensure that Tornadus has a reliable STAB move. Stealth Rock support is great for guaranteeing some KOs, but Tornadus doesn't appreciate Stealth Rock on its own side, so packing a Rapid Spinner,(no comma) such as Forretress or Excadrill,(no comma) is recommended. Powerful Choice item users make good teammates. Choice Specs Kyogre and Choice Specs Zekrom are both incredibly powerful, and can spam their strongest STAB moves with little risk. Pokemon like these become exponentially more dangerous while Tailwind is in effect, capable of sweeping through teams that rely on faster Pokemon to revenge kill them.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Substitute can be used to scout and block status moves. Torment neuters Choice item users. Toxic provides a last-ditch option for crippling a sweeper. A pair of Choice Specs can be equipped to increase the damage output of Hurricane, but this does not turn any notable 2HKOs into OHKOs, so they are not worth the loss of the ability to use Tailwind freely. A Bulk Up set using Flight Gem and Acrobatics is an option, but it is generally too weak, and Tornadus lacks reliable recovery so it can't survive for long anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>When dealing with Tornadus, it is much more important to have methods for dealing with the Tailwind recipients. Paralysis works well in this regard. Phazing moves and Protect help to stall out Tailwind's turns. ExtremeSpeed users can nail Tornadus before it can use Tailwind. If Thundurus wins a Speed tie,(comma) it can block Tailwind with Taunt. Another option is using Snatch to steal Tailwind. In terms of actual counters, Bronzong, Metagross, and Jirachi can shrug off Hurricanes and force Tornadus out. Zekrom walls Tornadus if it lacks Hidden Power Ice, and can outspeed and OHKO Tornadus with Fusion Bolt if Zekrom is using a Choice Scarf. Chansey and Blissey wall it completely if Tornadus doesn't carry Hammer Arm. Although not checks per se, Groudon and Rayquaza can rob Tornadus of its perfect accuracy Hurricanes through their respective abilities.</p>

    Fatecrashers you make things way too easy. Excellent read Tobes.

    [​IMG]

    [GP 2/2]
  15. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    A bit late and a bit strapped for time but anyway, I'm just going to point this out in case I forget it and it gets overlooked.

    -I think you should mention Skarmory as a check. If you lack Focus Blast, then Skarmory can just sit there and wall you all day. Taunt will shut down Skarmory for the most part but the Brave Bird ones can still do 48% - 57% (2HKO with Brave Bird). Also a point to be noted is that unless you run Hammer Arm, Chansey / Blissey laugh at you, while if you do so Skarmory laughs at you. So it needs to be explicitly mentioned in AC, that you need team mates for particular combinations of your moves. You do kind of "touch" upon it though.

    -Also in the overview, i think it would be best to state that all the things you mentioned are the only reasons Tornadus should be used over Thundurus. You do mention all relevant points just add in a Thundurus mention in there.
  16. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
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    This is done now. barry I get what you're saying about Thundurus outclassing Tornadus in terms of priority Taunt, but since I severely stress Tailwind as the reason to use it in the Overview I don't think I need to add a mention of that. I did mention Skarmory in Checks and Counters though.
  17. pie cream

    pie cream

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    why use tailwind when you have agilty?
  18. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    For supporting your team mates.
  19. Oglemi

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