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Torterra [GP 0/2] [STILL NOT READY FOR GP]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by shinyskarmory, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    [​IMG]

    [Overview]
    <p>Torterra, one of the better pokemon in UU in 4th gen, experienced a long fall to rock bottom with the release of Black and White. However, Torterra is very usable in RU, mainly because of its 95-105-85 defenses, access to boosting moves including Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Curse, Stockpile, and Amnesia, and a powerful base 109 attack stat. Torterra also has a large number of support moves like Reflect, Light Screen, and Stealth Rock. </p>

    <p>Torterra has its faults, however, A poor base Special Attack prevents it from going mixed, making Torterra fairly predictable. On top of that, it packs a devastating 4x weakness to Ice, making it heavily vulnerable to Glaceon and any user of Ice Shard. Depending on the coverage moves it runs, Torterra can always be walled by one of Gligar, Altaria, Mandibuzz, so packing an Ice type of your own is important. Despite its faults, the land tortoise can tear apart teams with the right support. </p>

    [SET]
    name: Rock Polish
    move1: Rock Polish
    move2: Earthquake
    move3: Wood Hammer / Seed Bomb
    move4: Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>This set uses Rock Polish to allow Torterra to reach 348 Attack and 422 speed after one boost, turning it into a threatening physical sweeper. Earthquake is powerful, reliable STAB, but Wood Hammer vs. Seed Bomb is a more difficult choice. Wood Hammer offers more power but also has recoil damage, which combined with Life Orb will wear Torterra down quickly. Seed Bomb is much less powerful but doesn't have recoil damage. Stone Edge completes the EdgeQuake combo, which combined with Torterra's Grass STAB gives nearly perfect neutral coverage. Paralysis support is also important for this set, as before a boost Torterra is quite slow. Entry hazards are also key to wear down switch ins, especially Toxic Spikes, which can help to wear down Tangrowth and Cofagrigus, both of which stop Torterra in its tracks.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p> Superpower is a decent option instead of Stone Edge, but the attack and defense drops will make Torterra weaker offensively and easier to revenge kill. Rock Slide is also somewhat viable, but Torterra needs all the power it can get on non-STAB moves. Synthesis can replace any of the listed attacking moves, but removing any of them allows Torterra to be easily walled. Finding a specially defensive partner is also important for this set, because +2 Torterra is outsped by Choice Scarf Typlosion, who easily OHKOes the tortoise with Fire Blast. Glaceon is also a serious threat, as it can outspeed Torterra and OHKO it with Ice Beam before Torterra boosts. A good partner for this set is Mantine, who can easily tank most special attacks aimed at Torterra and also switch back to Torterra on Electric attacks.</p>



    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move1: Earthquake
    move2: Stone Edge
    move3: Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb
    move4: Superpower
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 44 HP/252 Atk/212 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p> This set is extremely powerful off the bat, being able to OHKO or 2HKO many common threats. EdgeQuake is on the set for its amazing coverage. Wood Hammer and Seed Bomb present another choice between reduced power and recoil damage, though Wood Hammer is better on this set because there is no Life Orb recoil to combine with. Superpower is to beat Rotom-F and Balloon Garbodor, who may be fairly rare but can cause trouble for this set. This set suffers from an extreme lack of speed, making it difficult to take out more than one or two pokemon before being eliminated or forced to switch.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p> Using Team Preview correctly is the key to using this set. At the beginning of a match, look at the opponent's team and predict their Torterra switch-in, then use the appropriate move to beat the switch-in when you are predicting a switch. If you already locked in when you predict a switch, simply switch out to another pokemon. Crunch is an option on this set to beat Claydol and Rotom, but Wood Hammer is much more effective. Physically bulky pokemon like Escavalier, Marowak, and Amoonguss who resist one or more of Torterra's moves can also cause trouble if they come in on the right one. </p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Tank
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Wood Hammer / Seed Bomb
    move 3: Rock Slide
    move 4: Synthesis / Substitute
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p> This set is focused more on longevity and reliability than an immediate sweep. The Speed EVs are enough to outspeed uninvested base 80s. Earthquake and Rock Slide provide reliable psuedo-EdgeQuake coverage, while yet another choice between Wood Hammer and Seed Bomb is required. Seed Bomb is generally better paired with Substitute, while Wood Hammer is usually better with Synthesis, to offset the Life Orb and attack recoil. Torterra will also need a partner to tank special attacks and Ice type attacks to keep Torterra alive longer. If you take Substitute in the last slot and combine it with Life Orb, Torterra will need Wish support to avoid being rapidly worn down.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p> Leftovers is an option on the set over Life Orb, to help Torterra survive even longer, but Torterra will sorely miss the power provided by Life Orb. The nature can also be changed to more bulky ones like Calm or Impish, again at the cost of power. It really depends on personal preference. Toxic Spikes and Paralysis support are both great tools to allow this set to play a more stallish or offensive role, respectively. Toxic Spikes in particular synergizes well with Substitute. </p>

    [SET]

    name: Swords Dance
    move1: Swords Dance
    move2: Earthquake
    move3: Seed Bomb
    move4: Stone Edge/Superpower
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p> Torterra becomes ridiculously powerful after a Swords Dance, reaching 696 attack. In combination with Torterra's powerful STAB and type coverage, this set can punch holes in most teams after a boost. Setting up Swords Dance shouldn't be difficult because of Torterra's large number of switchins and the number of pokemon he forces out. Earthquake and Seed Bomb are for powerful dual STAB. The last moveset depends on what you need to beat. Stone Edge is great for taking out Altaria and Gligar, who screw Torterra over, but sacrifices coverage on Bronzor or Steels on balloons, who Superpower can take care of. Paralysis support is also completely necessary for this set, as without it Torterra will be far too slow to accomplish his goal.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p> This is by far Torterra's most powerful set, but also his slowest. Torterra has a serious lack of speed without boosting moves, which prevents him from sweeping effectively. Instead, this Torterra should function more like a wallbreaker, punching holes in opposing pokemon so true sweepers can clean up late game. Wood Hammer is much more powerful, but is not recommended because Wood Hammer's recoil goes up with the damage dealt. Bulldoze is also an option to slow opponents down to Torterra's level, but it is highly situational and Torterra will miss Earthquake's power, or the coverage granted by Stone Edge or Superpower. Finally, Synthesis can be used in the last slot to recover off Life Orb recoil, but this allows him to be more easily walled.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive Tank
    move1: Stealth Rock
    move2: Seed Bomb
    move3: Earthquake
    move4: Synthesis
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Impish
    evs: 212 HP/252 Def/44 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p> This set trades Torterra's offensive capabilities for great mixed bulk, somewhat comparable to Swampert's bulk in OU. Stealth Rock gives this set good supporting capabilities, as well as making Torterra a decent lead under the right circumstances. Stealth Rock also makes it much more difficult for Altaria and Gligar to switch in on Torterra or other sweepers and ruin their fun. Synthesis and Leftovers help to heal off damage every turn, improving Torterra's walling capabilities. Finally, Earthquake and Seed Bomb are for dual STAB. </p>


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p> The given EVs guarantee that Torterra will never be 2HKOed by Life Orb Rotom's Shadow Ball, assuming Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. If you already have a rapid spinner in your team, you may want to drop the Special Defense EVs and dump them into Defense. Another possible alternate EV spread is 212 HP/252 Def/44 Spe, to outrun Defensive Omastar, but isn't very useful otherwise. In terms of coverage, Seed Bomb can be replaced by Stone Edge, but this gives bulky water types like Quagsire chances to switch in and set up on Torterra. </p>

    [SET]
    name: SubSeed
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 212 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p> This set sacrifices Torterra's impressive attack power for stalling opponents with Substitute and Leech Seed. With the given EVs, Torterra produces extremely bulky 98 HP subs, and can outspeed base 80 speed opponents. The set is hampered somewhat by Torterra's lack of speed compared to other subseeders, but Torterra's immense bulk makes up for it. Earthquake and Stone Edge fill out Torterra's offensive coverage. </p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p> Ironically, other Torterra are possibly the best check to this set. Other Torterra can switch in on Leech Seed and set up Rock Polish or Swords Dance while Torterra tries in vain to do damage. Superpower can be used over Stone Edge to beat other Torterra, but this allows Altaria and Rotom to come in and OHKO with Ice Beam or Hidden Power Ice, respectively. Rotom-F is an excellent partner for this set, as it can come in on an opposing Torterra's Earthquake or an opposing Altaria's Ice Beam and OHKO in return. </p>

    [SET]

    name: Curse
    move1: Curse
    move2: Earthquake
    move3: Wood Hammer / Stone Edge
    move4: Synthesis
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Shell Armor
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p> This set uses Curse in conjunction with Synthesis recovery and Shell Armor to rack up boosts and sweep at the end of battles. Like the infamous CurseLax, this set should be used as the last pokemon, to prevent Torterra from being phazed. Then, set up Curses and heal with Synthesis when necessary. Shell Armor is a massive bonus for this set, as it prevents opposing pokemon from punching through Torterra's boosts with critical hits. Earthquake is a must as Torterra's STAB on this set. Wood Hammer is more reliable than Stone Edge but also has recoil damage that will make it harder for Torterra to perform its role. </p>


    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p> Bulldoze is possible over Earthquake on this set, but Earthquake is far superior due to its increased power. Bulldoze also falls flat because Curse decreases Torterra's speed anyhow, defeating the purpose of Bulldoze's speed drops. Rock Slide is also a viable option over Stone Edge, but at the cost of damage. Despite the maximum Special Defense on the set, Torterra is still vulnerable to powerful special attackers and Ice Beam users. It is therefore important to ensure that all such pokemon are eliminated before sending in Torterra. </p>

    [OTHER OPTIONS]
    <p> A RestTalk set with Curse is possible, but any move Torterra chooses will make him easily walled. Torterra also can use Stockpile or Amnesia sets, but both are illegal with Shell Armor, which is the only reason to use them in the first place. Dual Screens are also an option on Torterra, but the land tortoise is too slow to effectively pull off such a role. Crunch is an option on any offensive set, but it serves no purpose outside of OHKOing offensive Rotom.</p>

    [CHECKS AND COUNTERS]
    <p> Because most Torterra sets run 3 attacking moves plus a boosting or support move, Torterra often runs into four-moveslot syndrome. Without Stone Edge, Torterra is hard countered by Altaria, who can take all its attacks outside of Stone Edge and OHKO back with Ice Beam. Without a Grass move, Alolomola and Whiscash can absorb all of Torterra's attacks and hit hard with Ice Beam. Without Earthquake, Steelix can come in and wall Torterra completely with its 200 base defense. Glaceon gets a special mention for its ability to come in after a KO and OHKO with Ice Beam. Even with all 3, Tangrowth can sponge all of Torterra's attacks and recover off the damage with Synthesis. </p>
  2. PrimeMinister

    PrimeMinister

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    Get rid of the (show) and (hide) tags on all the sets. Just lay it all out. You need a quality control tag, an other options section, an additional comments section for all the sets, a checks and counters section.....just...please...
    FOLLOW. THIS. FORMAT. http://www.smogon.com/forums/announcement.php?f=181&a=181

    As far as content....here is my thoughts-

    I will let QC weigh in on this, but get rid of the curse set. I cant see it being useful. You should probably get rid of your defensive sets and include a support set, although the "tank" set could suffice after some work. Mention it's 4x ice weakness, it's a deadly one. I definitely encourage a choice set like this one-
    [SET]
    name: choice
    Move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Woodhammer
    Move 3: Stone Edge
    Move 4: Superpower
    item: choice band/scarf?
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: adamant/jolly
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def(?)

    Okay, here's the run down.
    A banded, ev'd torterra boasts monstrous attack. Torterra can pull this set off with a respectable
    attack and a decent physical move pool. Using the famous EdgeQuake combo, with ground STAB, as well as Grass STAB, allow torterra great coverage with the aid of superpower for rocks/steels. Now as for the item....I will ask a QC member to weigh in on the viability of a scarf torterra. The EVs are fairly obvious. Throw as much as you can into attack, back up that
    HP as much as possible, and throw the rest into the only other useable stat torterra has-def.

    Again, I will await a QC member to look at this.
    Oh yes you need a quality control tag.
  3. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    You need to follow the QC format. This analysis is good representation of what we want.
  4. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    I disagree with your assertion that Curse is a useless set. It boosts Torterra's best stats to ridiculous levels and is a monster late game. Perhaps it is better suited for OO. I'd like a QC member to weigh in on this.

    Your choice set is interesting, and it's one of the sets I toyed with when I originally tested sets for this analysis. However, one of the best things about Torterra is his great coverage, and using a Choice item sacrifices your coverage once you use a move, which is why I prefer boosting sets.
  5. EonADS

    EonADS

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    Where is the Life Orb tank set? Torterra hits like a Mac truck and gets Synthesis to heal itself, as well as a great set of STABs. Overvrow is a nice bonus too.
  6. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent come at me winter
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    I think that the SD set needs to go. It's simply too slow. Also Bulldoze as a main STAB?

    I recommend this set: Wood Hammer, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Synthesis @ Life Orb. It's excellent, having both longevity and power
  7. Omicron

    Omicron
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    I would say a double dance set is viable, I nearly got swept by it the other day >.>

    something like:

    [SET]
    name: Double Dance
    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  8. PrimeMinister

    PrimeMinister

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    Uh, can someone reassure me on the dual screens?
  9. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    The Dual Screens aren't to boost Torterra's defenses flat out, they're to help other pokemon set up and sweep.

    I guess that's the "support" set you wanted.
  10. PrimeMinister

    PrimeMinister

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    Yes but doesn't this make torterra somewhat of a dead weight?

    And lol, the support set I wanted was the tank stealth rock set.
  11. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    have you ever heard of dual screens+stealth rock with an attacking move?

    it solves ALL our problems :P
  12. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    There you go :)

    I don't think dual screens warrants a set, but keep it for now i'll talk it over with other QC members.

    QC APPROVED (1/3)
  13. Oglemi

    Oglemi Die you bastards!
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    the Rock Polish absolutely needs Life Orb, Leftovers shouldn't even be an option. Torterra is actually relatively weak and needs all the power he can get
  14. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    Fixed.
  15. Omicron

    Omicron
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    No opinions on this? D:

    [SET]
    name: Double Dance
    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Stone Edge / Wood Hammer
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    In the OP you mention that Torterra can't go mixed since it only has 85 base S.Atk.
    If this was true he could go mixed quite easy but her S.Atk is actually 75 and that is why he can't go mixed.
  17. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Light Rock in the Dual Screens set should be Light Clay.

    Also is there a way we can find out how to tailor the EV's to make Tortterra most effectively go into Overgrow range with Wood Hammer?
  18. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    I agree with Omicron, the Double Dancer set is probably Torterra's most RU viable set. IMO, it can be merged along with Rock Polish and Swords Dance into a single set.

    [SET]
    name: Boosting Sweeper
    move1: Swords Dance / Rock Polish
    move2: Stone Edge / Rock Polish
    move3: Seed Bomb / Wood Hammer
    move4: Earthquake
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    Bulldoze-> OO, it is very situational, and doesn't deal nearly as much damage as Earthquake. Earthquake is extremely necessary to deal with Pokemon such as Ferroseed who would otherwise wall this set cold.

    I also feel that Torterra doesn't have the Special Bulk nor Speed to reliably set up Dual Screens. It can easily be outsped by various threats and KOed before it can do anything. This is especially true given the omnipresence of dangerous Special Attackers, such as Galvantula, Moltres, and Typhlosion. Torterra is also easily Taunted, and without significant Attack investment, it just plain doesn't hit hard enough. There are definately much better options, namely Uxie.

    Finally, Choice Band set is fucking awesome. IMO it should be the #3 set, behind boosting sweeper and support. (Curse is pretty bad given all the powerful RU Special Attackers, but is viable enough to justify a set of its own) It also solves the issue of Seed Bomb vs Wood Hammer, since Torterra can just run both.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move1: Wood Hammer
    move2: Earthquake
    move3: Seed Bomb
    move4: Stone Edge
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Overgrow
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    Typhlosion IMO has absolutely gotta be mentioned in the checks an counters section. A Choice Scarf Typlosion outspeeds Torterra even after a Rock Polish boost, and can incinerate the tortoise with Eruption / Overheat / Fire Blast.
  19. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    OK, to be honest, the whole analysis has some issues (lack of Choice Band and Sub 3-Atacks sets, the issues with Bulldoze being listed on a sweeper set, which just shouldn't happen...) but the main problem here are your EVspreads. You seem to have pulled out some completely arbitrary cookie cutter spreads that just look nice on paper but don't actually accomplish much. What does Swords Dance Torterra need max speed for? Why does your Tank spread need max Attack? Why does Curse need max Attack?

    The Tank Torterra set should run max HP with enough Special Defense to take two LO Rotom Shadow Balls. The rest should just be put into Defense, since it really doesn't need the Attack for anything. Another option might be to give it a spread of 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe, to outrun defensive Omastar while giving it the best physical bulk. However, if you do this, then put a Specially Defensive set in the analysis as well, or at least give a specially defensive spread an AC mention.

    Change Curse Torterra's EVs to 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD - you don't need max Attack on it like you have listed, but rather as much Special Defense as possible in order to take hits while you're boosting with Curse, as well as retaliate to some weaker special attackers.

    Do you really need max Speed on Swords Dance Torterra? I don't see any reason to run more than 212, to outrun min speed base 80s, and even that's a bit of a stretch considering how few there are in RU.

    Add Choice Band, Rock Polish (which IMO deserves a different set from Swords Dance), Specially Defensive (if you choose not to list a specially defensive spread in the AC of the Tank set) and possibly Subseed sets to the analysis. But agreeing with PK; you can scrap the Dual Screens set.

    Once you make those changes, QC APPROVED 2/3
  20. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    Changes made.
  21. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    You still have bulldoze on the sd set...

    Also mention the LO attacker somewhere. Earthquake / Wood Hammer / Rock Slide / Synthesis @ LO is really good. Sub can also be slashed with synthesis but then you're gonna want seed bomb over wood hammer.
  22. Oglemi

    Oglemi Die you bastards!
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    Add a SubSeed set, it should probably look like:

    [SET]
    name: SubSeed
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Leech Seed
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 212 Spe

    also, the set badabing mentioned should be added:

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Tank
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Wood Hammer / Seed Bomb
    move 3: Rock Slide
    move 4: Synthesis / Substitute
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe

    Change the name of the Tank set to Defensive tank. However, the EVs on it are weird. Torterra excels at tanking physical hits so idk why you wouldn't go full out investment there. Are the SpD EVs saving you from anything in particular, like Lanturn's Ice Beam or something? If not, just make the EV spread 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD.

    CB Torterra is amazing, I'd definitely move that up before Swords Dance. And the tank set should be above Curse.

    So the final order should go: Rock Polish, CB, Offensive Tank, Swords Dance, Defensive Tank, SubSeed, Curse imo

    Do all of this and I'll stamp it.

    Also Torterra is super versatile and I realize that there are now a lot of sets, so I understand if you feel like this is too much to write, good luck if you stick with it :)
  23. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    Subseed is definitely an interesting set, I didn't test it much because I thought he needed more speed to do it, but I didn't realize at the time how Torterra's bulk made up for it. I'll add it.

    The evs are as Windsong suggested. They allow Torterra to never be 2HKOed by LO Rotom Shadow Ball with SR and a layer of spikes.

    CB Torterra I didn't personally test, but it sounded like a pretty powerful set. I'll add it.

    Thanks for all the help! (Now to do a writeup after I add the sets...shudder)
  24. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    Sorry for double posting, but made Oglemi's changes.

    The writeup is going to suck to do, so I'll probably space it out over a few days.
  25. Oglemi

    Oglemi Die you bastards!
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    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 3/3

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