That was exactly my point. Now that we have moves like Hurricane+Rain and Acrobat, Flying is going to be a lot more viable as an offensive type.
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Torunerosu
- Thread starter diamondfan1910
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I wouldn't say ALOT more viable - the price that comes with using Acrobat is pretty steep considering the importance of an item (Gliscor gets by because poison heal helps mitigate leftovers), so it needs to be the absolutely best choice. Given Tornelos' access to a physical boosting move, near-perfect coverage, and high base 115 SpA, it is its best way to differentiate itself from Landlos and Voltolos. Hurricane + Focus Blast is powerful, but heavily relies on weather to the point of being potentially unreliable (especially if Drizzle is banned).
Still, few things resist flying and the typing grants great resistances to Fighting and Ground (as well as Grass but eh).
Oddly enough, the Acrobat set is one of the very few things this guy can do that Voltlos can't do at all. There are a few more differences between this guy and Voltlos than were first realized and Voltlos doesn't totally outclass if you're using Tornelos's strengths in Hurricane, Bulk Up Acrobat, and Tailwind. if you're trying to use it as a lesser Voltlos than yeah (why doesn't this get Nasty Plot? Voltlos gets Nasty Plot and Bulk Up), but Tornelos isn't terrible.
Taunt was an option I forgot about and Acrobat/Brick Break hits nearly everything anyhow. Considering most Gliscor's won't have Stone Edge or Ice Fang usually, Tornelos seems fairly safe against it to Bulk Up (although they definitely wouldn't have chosen Gliscor as there first thing to send in since they'd be expecting a special attacker) and Hippowdon without Ice Fang/Stone Edge (although unboosted Stone Edges don't ohko unboosted Tornelos without Stealth Rock anyhow and after Bulk Up, Ice Fang does about 33% while +1 Flight Jewl Acrobat would do 60.71-71.43%, a 2 hit ko).
So my favorite sets are
Acrobat
Specs Hurricane
Rain Inducer (once Drizzle is banned)
Mix attacker
Though I still like Acrobat personally the best because hitting with an effortless 110 base stab that gets rewarded the very first time with 165 base stab is incredible with a Mischievious Heart Bulk Up and Taunt to prevent other Taunters or Encores as well as defensive things.
Taunt was an option I forgot about and Acrobat/Brick Break hits nearly everything anyhow. Considering most Gliscor's won't have Stone Edge or Ice Fang usually, Tornelos seems fairly safe against it to Bulk Up (although they definitely wouldn't have chosen Gliscor as there first thing to send in since they'd be expecting a special attacker) and Hippowdon without Ice Fang/Stone Edge (although unboosted Stone Edges don't ohko unboosted Tornelos without Stealth Rock anyhow and after Bulk Up, Ice Fang does about 33% while +1 Flight Jewl Acrobat would do 60.71-71.43%, a 2 hit ko).
So my favorite sets are
Acrobat
Specs Hurricane
Rain Inducer (once Drizzle is banned)
Mix attacker
Though I still like Acrobat personally the best because hitting with an effortless 110 base stab that gets rewarded the very first time with 165 base stab is incredible with a Mischievious Heart Bulk Up and Taunt to prevent other Taunters or Encores as well as defensive things.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
as IcyMan28 said being forced to use no item is making acrobat an unappealing option; no leftovers means bulk up sets suffer from residual damage and even weak hits will suck your health away faster than you think not to mention that the impossibility of using a Life orb or Choice Band to Power up your STAB simply sucks. A Bulk Up Acrobat set would be cool if he would have recovery in form of Roost wich he sadly doesn't get. As it currently is a bulky set up Sweeping set wouldn't have the greatest success as he needs 2 or more bulk ups to compensate the lost power from being unable to utilize a Life Orb an the Bulk lost from being unable of having no recovery.
i agree with this!tornelos has neither the bulk neither the moves to abuse bulk up..and also his attack isn't so great even after one bulk up...
let's form a possible scenario:tornelos bulks up when the opponent switches to something that can handle tornelos...before the opponent can attack you,you bulk up again or attack with acrobat...either way most things can,even with boosts in defence,do around 30-35% with supereffective hits against u which is a lot when you consider that u have no means of recovery,hell not even leftovers,and you cannot kill them back 'cause you are bulking up not swords dancing...and also bulky waters with ice beam murder you as you don't have the power to muscle through them nor you have the sp.defence to handle special hits especially super effective ones...
a +1 bosst in a 115 attack stat is not so much to handle in this generation...if you want a bulky defensive booster there are far better choices that provide more power and more survivability(roobushin comes in mind,toxicroak in rain,reuniclus) and if you want a fast attacker that can hit hard,again better options come in mind(terakion,doryuuzu,landlos,lucario,dragon dancers and the list goes on).
i think that if tornelos got roost he would be a decent bulk upper but without it,he doesn't perform so well...
oh and i forgot to state the fact that sandstorm and sr are so prevailing that tornelos's job at bulk upping is even harder..!!
That's true, but Tornadus can set up a priority Rain Dance, making him and Thundurus great choices for a Rain Dance team especially if Drizzle is banned.
So? Yes, Electric/Flying is almost categorically superior to pure Flying. That was established early on. The entire purpose of the thread is using the things it has that its electric sibling doesn't to differentiate it, despite the inferior typing.
You're underestimating how hard a 110 base power non-side effect STAB that's really only resisted by Steel and Rock (Brick Break handles the common rock Tyranitar switch in) move actually hits, with or without Life Orb. And seriously, Life Orb would be dropping your hp even faster than you were before.
It's not meant to be bulky. But turning 1 hit koes into 2 and 2 into 3 is still helpful since you smash with Acrobat. You're using Bulk Up to raise your attack (sadly it does not have Swords Dance, Acrobat would be monstrous if it did) and it just has the side benefit of raising defense. I'd like to show how helpful +1 Bulk Up actually is even though Tornelos is still not the bulkiest thing around.
It turns (on the switch in)...
Choice Band Ice Shard Mamoswine into a 2 hit ko: (96.32-114.38% into 64.88-76.92%, only a small percentage chance of ohko with Stealth Rock)
Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch ohko (if you switched into Stealth Rock earlier) into a 2 hit ko and non Choice Band Scizor's don't 2 hit ko without Stealth Rock.
Choice Band Azumarill Aqua Jet into a 3 hit ko intsead of a 2 hit ko.
And seriously, don't send Breloom or Roopushin in on Tornelos. That is stupid unless it has like less than 20% of it's health left or something.
Being one of the very few pokemon to outspeed Latias/Latios is quite something as well as Birijion, Terakion, and everything else slower that isn't carrying Choice Scarf or a weather poke.
You DON'T WANT CHOICE BAND on Tornelos. That is HORRIBLE FOR HIM. You CAN'T use Acrobat then and his other physical movepool options SUCK. And if you still have Flight Jewl, that ACTS as a Choice Band and lets you switch moves and continually use Acrobat. If you get +1 and STILL have Flight Jewl you can
ohko Latias/Latios for certain (Latios can be ohkoed after +1 with or without Jewl but Latias needs either +2 or +1 and Flight Jewl for Acrobat ohko)
ohko Scizor
have over 50% ohko on Vaporeon with Stealth Rock
2 hit ko Hippowdon
ohko standard non-scarf Garchomp
2 hit ko Suicune
ohko Terakion
Yeah, and that's with +1 and Jewl. Send it in on something it threatens out and steal Bulk Up on the switch and smash people. Simple as that really. It hits HARD.
And the threat of Choice Specs Hurricane is also strong so you can surprise people with +1 Acrobats which are way stronger than you think.
Again, it's not meant to be bulky and seriously, Bulk Up Toxicroak? That has less bulk than Tornelos. And it does have the power to 1-2 hit ko waters. The only water that threatens you is Life Orb Floatzel and Life Orb/Specs Starmie since they outspeed you
max hp toxicroak is bulkier than 4hp tornelos,has 6 resistances and 1 immunity instead of 3 resistances and 1 immunity,less exploitable weaknesses meaning ground,flying and psychic,instead of ice,electric and rock(ground is very popular but the other 2 types are not when all 3 weaknesses of tornelos are very common types and while bulk upping tornelos only fixes his rock weakness since the other 2 types are most of the time special.while toxicroak is bulk upping he fixes his only exploitable weakness which is almost always physical,ground)finally toxicroak recovers 3/16 of its health per turn(in rain) and with protect it heals 6/16 of it's life in 2 turns...also in many circumstances the lower speed is irrelevant as toxicroak has sucker punch but this is irrelevant as we are talking about bulk...
anyway bulk up tornelos is surely worth givin' a shot and is sometimes great(and has some surprise element)...but generally if you want a fast powerful physical attacker without any given circumstances(sandstorm,rain etc) there are much better choices like terakion,garchomp,salamence,landlos and more...
anyway bulk up tornelos is surely worth givin' a shot and is sometimes great(and has some surprise element)...but generally if you want a fast powerful physical attacker without any given circumstances(sandstorm,rain etc) there are much better choices like terakion,garchomp,salamence,landlos and more...
Because they're both physical attackers, I guess? Never mind that they have totally different typings, movesets, and abilities, and Tornadus has more speed.
If Tornadus is on a rain team, shouldn't it be special to abuse Hurricane (along with its higher attacking stat and the fact that most walls are physical-focused this gen)?
I think he is talking about Toxicroak in comparison to Tornelos with respect to their ability to use Bulk Up, which imo, while having good coverage in Acrobat/fighting move simply fails against the sheer awesomeness of Specs Tornelos(seriously that thing make me nervous every time I face it), not to mention the fact that most of the other physical boosters are better than him...
they are compared as bulk uppers that also function good in rain.and even if it doesn't benefit from the rain tornadus still gets the element of surprise...
e.g.you bring in tornadus in something that he can scare out...if the opponent anticipates a hurricane and brings in nattorei or tyranitar to absorb the attack,that might as well be choiced meaning that they could wall you,you bulk up on the switch murdering tyranitar with brick break or setting up even more on nattorei after taunting him or after setting up a sub...
e.g.you bring in tornadus in something that he can scare out...if the opponent anticipates a hurricane and brings in nattorei or tyranitar to absorb the attack,that might as well be choiced meaning that they could wall you,you bulk up on the switch murdering tyranitar with brick break or setting up even more on nattorei after taunting him or after setting up a sub...
Or just use an expert belt and nail them with Focus Blast....alexwolf said:
yooooo i got an idea for a set (sorry if its been posted already)
tornadus @ white herb
lonely nature
defiant
126 attack/126 special attack/252 speed
hammer arm
acrobatics
bulk up/agility
hurricane/focus blast
hidden power fire
a set i made up pretty quickly, so you hammer arm and then your speed gets lowered but your attack gets +2 because of his ability and then speed will then be restored because of white herb. acrobatics will be your main move, having a very nice base power and coming off a very high attack stat, hurricane or focus blast are your special move of choice, hurricane is good in rain but focus blast has good coverage and you can use it consistently unlike hammer arm. bulk up or agility are there if you want to further increase your stats and hp fire is to hit things like skarmory, nattorei, and metagross
tornadus @ white herb
lonely nature
defiant
126 attack/126 special attack/252 speed
hammer arm
acrobatics
bulk up/agility
hurricane/focus blast
hidden power fire
a set i made up pretty quickly, so you hammer arm and then your speed gets lowered but your attack gets +2 because of his ability and then speed will then be restored because of white herb. acrobatics will be your main move, having a very nice base power and coming off a very high attack stat, hurricane or focus blast are your special move of choice, hurricane is good in rain but focus blast has good coverage and you can use it consistently unlike hammer arm. bulk up or agility are there if you want to further increase your stats and hp fire is to hit things like skarmory, nattorei, and metagross
Sorry to burst your bubble but
You can't have 5 moves on the same pokemon(yeah their iq is pretty low)
Defiant doesn't activate from self-inflicted stat drops
You can't have 5 moves on the same pokemon(yeah their iq is pretty low)
Defiant doesn't activate from self-inflicted stat drops
but then you remember that fcous blast has only 70% accuracy and it's not the easiest thing to spam focus blasts around 'cause you expect tyranitar to switch in...in the other hand with bulk up not only you kill him but you can even setup on nattorei...i am not saying that it is the best set but i am saying that definitely the surprise has big value in some cases like this...you don't have to rely on focus miss and perfect prediction to kill him you just bulk up as they switch...
Honestly I have yet to see this thing. Seems outclassed due to typing, with its Genie brothers. Its still looks to be a monster though, probably will end up in BL.
Have you played the metagame at all? Tornelos is probably one of the best rain sweepers, especially after the drizzle+swsw ban, and is on most offensive drizzle teams.
Thats why i said expert belt. use hurricane, they switch in TTar, think its specs and stay in, then get raped by focus blast.
Nattorei probably can't handle a Hurricane+Focus Blast either, haven't run calcs though.
i understood why you noted expert belt but specially defensive ttar doesnt die from a combination of hurricane and fb and kos you...
and the chance of these 2 moves to hit conesutively is roughly 50% cause hurricane has 70% accuracy when tyranitar comes in,so you want two 70% accuracy moves to hit twice in a row...not the easiest thing to do!
BurningMan
fueled by beer
252HP/252SpD +nature Nattorei gets 2HKOed by Specs Hurricane most of the time doing 52.8-62.2%
@above there are very few 252/252 +nature Special defensive TTars and even they die with SR+ a layer of spikes if they come in on FB
The point of the Bulk Up is surprise since people would expect the Hurricane, geez (and that it's actually a good set). That and you're not as reliant on rain or hitting with 70% accurate moves. Nattorei needs Gyro Ball to hit Tornelos after Bulk Up hard (do Nattorei commonly carry Gyroball or is it mainly Leech Seed/Protect/Spikes/Power Whip or something?) and Brick Break 2 hit koes. But considering how little resists flying, getting smashed by Tornelos's Acrobat hurts hard. Zapdos is one of the few pokemon that resists both Acrobat/Brick Break (Offensive Voltlos takes absolutely massive damage after +1 and if you still have Flight Jewl).
Although I do happen to love special attacking/mix sets. But being one of the only good Acrobatters is cool (and gets stab). It doesn't need Life Orb when you're already hitting that hard.
If Tornelos is BL, the world has gone mad.
Special Defensive Tyranitar (404 Hp/319 SDef) actually isn't 2 hit koed by Expert Belt Hurricane+Focus Blast...
Just as a matter of curiousity as Bulk Uppers in Rain, do people use Bulk Up+Protect (that just seems random)? Wouldn't Toxicroak be better with Swords Dance?
Although I do happen to love special attacking/mix sets. But being one of the only good Acrobatters is cool (and gets stab). It doesn't need Life Orb when you're already hitting that hard.
If Tornelos is BL, the world has gone mad.
Special Defensive Tyranitar (404 Hp/319 SDef) actually isn't 2 hit koed by Expert Belt Hurricane+Focus Blast...
Just as a matter of curiousity as Bulk Uppers in Rain, do people use Bulk Up+Protect (that just seems random)? Wouldn't Toxicroak be better with Swords Dance?