Pokémon Toucannon

[Siggu]

Sheer Force could work, right. Specs Boomburst is neat, and while it lacks Scrappy unlike Swellow, it hits much harder, while it has Overheat instead of Heat Wave, and something to hit Rock-types hard in Flash Cannon, which is boosted by Sheer Force.

Considering that Swellow could very well go up at least one tier this generation, Toucannon can have a fine place in NU at worst.

By the way, don't you think that since it's called the Cannon Pokemon... shouldn't it have got Mega Launcher?

 

[Drangonn.]

Beak blast doesn't have priority, it's a charge up move. FFS read the damn descriptions. I'd much rather use Brave Bird than an attack that invites free damage. It doesn't do both of those things without the opponent attacking between the burn and the attack, so that's pointless too.

Superpower is a great move to have, it nails everything Toucannon does but with better coverage. Are you ignoring every reason I said it was better? It has better bulk, speed, the ability to run a defensive set (and hereby having 1000x more utility lol) and 5 BP isn't gonna matter when Braviary has actually just enough of a better attack to make it negligible. I don't know where Toucannon's "great utility" lies but having trash bulk and trash speed doesn't do it many favors, making it a rather one dimensional pokemon. On the other hand, Braviary can run a myriad of sets, ranging from Bulk Up to choice band to roost + 3 attacks to choice scarf, while Toucannon is a subpar user of Scarf, Band, or a setup set. I'm putting everything in context of the RU tier and you're ignoring it because...well, I don't know. Toucannon will simply not be nearly as good as Braviary.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Yeah, Braviary is better in almost every way. It's a little stronger, it's bulkier, and it's faster. Superpower is a much better coverage move than Rock Blast and Bullet Seed. Flying + Fighting is excellent neutral coverage, while Flying + Grass + Rock still leaves you vulnerable to Steels. You'll have to run Overheat coming off of a mediocre base 75 SpA stat to hit those, which means you'll have to drop U-turn/Roost/etc. The stat drops from Superpower aren't even that bad when you consider that the kind of sets that run it probably aren't staying in for more than a turn or two anyway, and it's not like Toucannon is sticking around much longer with its bad bulk and speed. That's also to say nothing of Braviary's ability to run a defensive Bulk Up set. Toucannon has no equivalent.

Beak Blast is a fine move, but let's not make it sound better than it actually is. The priority burn only works if the opponent hits you with a contact move. There are plenty of non-contact moves that are going to be thrown Toucannon's way, especially considering that the moves Toucannon is weak to are predominantly non-contact (Head Smash, Ice/Thunder Punch/Fang, and Wild Charge are the only super effective contact moves you'll see most of the time). Meanwhile, the actual damage has negative priority, which forces Toucannon to take a hit before it can hit back. That's not a good thing when it's not very bulky to begin with.

Also, and this is completely unrelated:

It's like RottenTomatoes rating movies. They gave 26% to Suicide Squad stating that the movie sucks (pretty much paid by Disney), but it was the movie that got most audience this year.

I'm afraid you don't know what Rotten Tomatoes actually is. They don't rate movies, they just collect reviews from critics. That 26% rating means that only 26% of critics gave it a positive review. And let's be real, that movie wasn't very good. It also didn't even get close to having the largest audience this year. Civil War, Finding Dory, Zootopia, The Jungle Book, The Secret Life of Pets, Dawn of Justice, and Deadpool all beat it at the box office, Dr. Strange might do the same by the time its theatrical run ends, and if the success of The Force Awakens is of any indication, Rogue One will beat it too. Suicide Squad will be fortunate to finish in the top 10.

I also find it humorous when people say that Rotten Tomatoes was paid by Disney to bash a Warner Bros. movie when Warner Bros. partially owns Rotten Tomatoes, lol.

 

[Nightingales]

I do have to say that Toucannon gets Swords Dance while Braviary does not. So while it might not be as good against offense, it most certainly can do something in the first place.

 

[Drangonn.]

I do have to say that Toucannon gets Swords Dance while Braviary does not. So while it might not be as good against offense, it most certainly can do something in the first place.

It won't be as good in general. It's unable to effectively utilize SD anyway, what with its piss poor bulk, even versus defensive teams, which is why AoA sets suit it much better.

I really want this to be good but it's really not shaping up to look like that.

 

[Nightingales]

It won't be as good in general. It's unable to effectively utilize SD anyway, what with its piss poor bulk, even versus defensive teams, which is why AoA sets suit it much better.

I really want this to be good but it's really not shaping up to look like that.

No, you're right. I can see this being RU, or maybe BL4, but it might get usage in higher tiers because it actually has some interesting tools to work with. It looks like Stall won't really have much of an answer for SubSD, especially because a lot of stall runs Seismic Toss to not be taunt bait - which means a free burn, in essence. But I don't play stall so I'm not the most qualified to talk about that.

 

[Drangonn.]

No, you're right. I can see this being RU, or maybe BL4, but it might get usage in higher tiers because it actually has some interesting tools to work with. It looks like Stall won't really have much of an answer for SubSD, especially because a lot of stall runs Seismic Toss to not be taunt bait - which means a free burn, in essence. But I don't play stall so I'm not the most qualified to talk about that.

SubSD Toucannon would inevitably have to run Sub, SD, Flying Stab, and some other move. If Roost, it gets hard walled by Registeel. If it runs fighting coverage, it gets ruined by Alomomola...and this cycle continues. SubSD micht do well in a tier not infested with steel types (i.e., PU) as would choice band sets that are also ruined by fat steels. It's like a really interesting twist on Cinccino (which it will be better than). But I honestly cannot see a bright future for this mon in RU. If I had to choose a rank, maybe C/C-, and same with NU. In PU maybe somewhere in the B ranks.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I think you guys are overlooking a potentially huge aspect of Beak Blast: it can burn Fake Out users.

 

[Contraire.]

Friendly reminder that the tier of a Pokemon does not determine its worth. From a fan's perspective, even Pokemon weak enough to be unviable in PU are precious (Sunflora, guys. This adorable flower has done nothing wrong and needs to be protected.). From a competitive battler's perspective, just because a Pokemon is in a lower tier doesn't mean you can't use it.

I really wish PU would get a new name because currently there's this serious stigma against Pokemon in the PU tier. People seem to think that every Pokemon in the lowest competitive tier is worthless, when that can't be further from the truth. Even Unown is a fun, interesting Pokemon that is the opposite of worthless.

Back to Toucannon, though, it won't be as good as Braviary, but that's okay. Braviary will likely be in RU, and be banned from whatever tier Toucannon ends up in so the two won't have to compete. Simple as that.

 

[TheTraininator]

Sheer Force could work, right. Specs Boomburst is neat, and while it lacks Scrappy unlike Swellow, it hits much harder

Not true anymore. As of Generation 7, Swellow now has base 75 Special Attack, meaning there is essentially no reason to run Specs Toucannon over Swellow period.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Beak blast doesn't have priority, it's a charge up move. FFS read the damn descriptions. I'd much rather use Brave Bird than an attack that invites free damage. It doesn't do both of those things without the opponent attacking between the burn and the attack, so that's pointless too.

Superpower is a great move to have, it nails everything Toucannon does but with better coverage. Are you ignoring every reason I said it was better? It has better bulk, speed, the ability to run a defensive set (and hereby having 1000x more utility lol) and 5 BP isn't gonna matter when Braviary has actually just enough of a better attack to make it negligible. I don't know where Toucannon's "great utility" lies but having trash bulk and trash speed doesn't do it many favors, making it a rather one dimensional pokemon. On the other hand, Braviary can run a myriad of sets, ranging from Bulk Up to choice band to roost + 3 attacks to choice scarf, while Toucannon is a subpar user of Scarf, Band, or a setup set. I'm putting everything in context of the RU tier and you're ignoring it because...well, I don't know. Toucannon will simply not be nearly as good as Braviary.

Beak Blast can stop a +2 Drapion sweep. Scarf Flygon can't touch you without getting burned. Physical attackers WILL be crippled if they stay in against Toucannon (including Braviary hihi). The initial charge has priority and even if you knock Toucannon out, the burn will still be applied afterwards. Its lack of bulk is irrelevant when you can force switches against the opponent's win conditions (AND smack their switch in with a huge STAB attack or U-Turn, if you predict).

I feel like this is a powerful niche.

 

[Drangonn.]

I wouldn't use Toucannon to spread burns or as a setup deterrent, I'd use it as a wallbreaker. Beak Blast does not give it nearly as much of a niche as you'd like to think, because frankly, what if I have a beller in the back? A lot of pokemon don't care about burns (fire types and lum berry wielders); what can it do to them? Not to mention it ahas negative priority, which in tandem with hazards pressure will most likely lead to its early death. We don't know if it's versus the opponent's wincons either; it's just physical moves. This isn't that big of a niche, or not one to put it over the myriad of birds that you could use instead of it.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I wouldn't use Toucannon to spread burns or as a setup deterrent, I'd use it as a wallbreaker. Beak Blast does not give it nearly as much of a niche as you'd like to think, because frankly, what if I have a beller in the back? A lot of pokemon don't care about burns (fire types and lum berry wielders); what can it do to them? Not to mention it ahas negative priority, which in tandem with hazards pressure will most likely lead to its early death. We don't know if it's versus the opponent's wincons either; it's just physical moves. This isn't that big of a niche, or not one to put it over the myriad of birds that you could use instead of it.

Even though Beak Blast has negative priority, Toucannon is rather slow and isn't terribly frail, so negative priority doesn't hurt him all that much, especially when compared to, say, Weavile. Also, as I said eariler, Beak Blast can burn Fake Out users, as well as slow priority users and most moderately fast non-Rock and non-Fire physical attackers. Granted, its usefulness is hindered by the fact that most physical Rock moves and several physical Ice moves don't make contact, but it's still big check to fast physical attackers whose main methods of staying alive are killing the opponent and U-Turning to safety. Sort of like Prankster Will-o-Wisp, except without the spotty accuracy, it only works if the opponent touches you, and it doubles as a powerful attack if you aren't killed. That said, I agree that Toucannon shouldn't be primarily used to spread burns, but Beak Blast's extra utility and lack of recoil make it a viable choice over Brave Bird.

 

[Terminate421]

I feel like a bruiser build is the best approach at the moment.

Something that allows him to survive to burn things, if not burn things do a bit of chunking.

 

[The Haymaker]

The stallbreaker set looks pretty promising in the lower tiers. It's a shame it doesn't have at least just 20 more base HP to utilize 101 HP Subs and have the bulk to carve a niche with a bulky Beak Blast set. So, since Toucannon doesn't really have the bulk to set up except against passive Pokemon, what about a mixed wallbreaker or revenge killer set with Scarf?

Toucannon @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Rock Blast / U-Turn
- Boomburst
- Overheat

There's pretty great coverage there. Heatran kinda laughs at this set, but Toucannon will never make it to OU in its current state. U-Turn is worth considering on a Scarf set, but Rock Blast should be used with LO and can still be used with Scarf for better coverage. Basically, just threaten with a high BP move on the opponent's weaker defense or revenge kill if Scarfed. Max SpA cause the special moves are too weak otherwise, and speed investment is probably going to vary based on tier.

 

[Tazonite]

Just what we needed
Another RU Normal type meme
But it has a big movepool. Maybe it'll work.

 

[LittlestMinish]

Just what we needed
Another RU Normal type meme
But it has a big movepool. Maybe it'll work.

I sure do hope so. I'm building BSS competitive mons in Dex order (skipping starters). I hate that I started with a Mon so complex and variable, but I guess I that's what makes it potentially RU level. I want his semi-bulk Skill Link physical set to be the best, because the design of Beak Blast is so friggin cool and elegantly designed, but I'm worried about what Drangonn said. Being Steel-walled is an issue.

Which do you think is the most viable?

 

[Tazonite]

I sure do hope so. I'm building BSS competitive mons in Dex order (skipping starters). I hate that I started with a Mon so complex and variable, but I guess I that's what makes it potentially RU level. I want his semi-bulk Skill Link physical set to be the best, because the design of Beak Blast is so friggin cool and elegantly designed, but I'm worried about what Drangonn said. Being Steel-walled is an issue.

Which do you think is the most viable?

I have no idea. You'll have to ask somebody who's good at battling.

 

[Drangonn.]

using bulk on Toucannon is not advised because it never finds opportunities to utilize bulk. A simple Max attack max speed life orb set is a far superior option.

 

[LittlestMinish]

using bulk on Toucannon is not advised because it never finds opportunities to utilize bulk. A simple Max attack max speed life orb set is a far superior option.

Thanks for the response Drangonn. So the skill link Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, Blast Beak, Roost set is what you'd think is the best way to utilize the Mon?

 

[Contraire.]

By the way, don't you think that since it's called the Cannon Pokemon... shouldn't it have got Mega Launcher?

Lol, and then GameFreak would have been a troll as usual and not given him any pulse moves, just like how they gave him Sheer Force but no moves he can use to take advantage of it. :(

Maybe a pseudo-Double Dance set with Tailwind and Swords Dance could work relatively well? I'm currently testing several Toucannon sets so I'm not going to post them yet, but, like I said before, Toucannon can utilize a variety of sets relatively well. Just not super well, otherwise it would be OU. NU is looking to be a viable home for Toucannon because:
1. Swellow will probably move up to RU thanks to its SpA boost.
2. Dodrio will probably move up to UU thanks to the large number of boosts it has received.
3. RU birds like Braviary outclass Toucannon.
4. PU birds like Chatot will stay where they are because they haven't received anything new.

I predict that Toucannon will find his niche as NU's resident Normal/Flying type.

 

[Tazonite]

Lol, and then GameFreak would have been a troll as usual and not given him any pulse moves, just like how they gave him Sheer Force but no moves he can use to take advantage of it. :(

Maybe a pseudo-Double Dance set with Tailwind and Swords Dance could work relatively well? I'm currently testing several Toucannon sets so I'm not going to post them yet, but, like I said before, Toucannon can utilize a variety of sets relatively well. Just not super well, otherwise it would be OU. NU is looking to be a viable home for Toucannon because:
1. Swellow will probably move up to RU thanks to its SpA boost.
2. Dodrio will probably move up to UU thanks to the large number of boosts it has received.
3. RU birds like Braviary outclass Toucannon.
4. PU birds like Chatot will stay where they are because they haven't received anything new.

I predict that Toucannon will find his niche as NU's resident Normal/Flying type.

Well we already established any Special attacker sets are completely outclassed by Swellow. As a physical attacker, I have no idea how it will do. Maybe it will wallbreak. In PU I can imagine it doing well as a wallbreaker because Skill Link is amazing at wallbreaking on the right Mons. I'm not sure if it will be PU. Maybe an NU B-rank. These are just guesses, I'm not the biggest competitive expert. I do know some basic stuff, though.

But in the end, I just have a feeling it's gonna become another RU meme.
I know low ladder RU. They're idiots sometimes.
I'm low ladder RU too, but only because I don't really try.

 

[Contraire.]

But in the end, I just have a feeling it's gonna become another RU meme.
I know low ladder RU. They're idiots sometimes.
I'm low ladder RU too, but only because I don't really try.

I hate it so much when that happens. It's disrespectful to Pokemon who would do so well in NU or PU, to keep them in RU where they're laughed at for how unviable they are.

 

[TONE]

I seriously doubt Toucannon will become a RU meme simply due to the fact that's it's a slower but stronger Cinccino which can't exactly use Skill Link to its full potential as its strongest muti-hitting attack is Fury Attack which is weaker than STAB Return. It's not a given, but its pretty clear that Toucannon will end up PU in the near future. More mons to mess around with means less of a chance of Gen 6 repeating itself, but I won't get ahead of myself. Anyway this set is from a P aspect, so don't haund me over this:

Toucannon @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Bullet Seed
- U-turn
- Brick Break / Overheat

Return could fit somewhere here, but at least from a PU standpoint, this could possibly work a lot better if it didn't have such poor Speed for a Flying-type. Most of the time, Toucannon will be spamming Brave Bird while Flying resist gets dealt with by Bullet Seed and Brick Break respectively. Overheat is mainly here for defensive variants of Mawile and other Steel-types that aren't weak to Brick Break. Overall, Toucannon won't really shine in any particular meta as if it does drop to PU, it will be held back by its poor Speed, but if a set were to be made for it, this is what I believe it wold be with some variations here and there. Also for clarifications sake, I went based on mons that were PU by usage before Sun/Moon meta started.

Side note: NU's resident Normal/Flying type will be Dodrio, not this.

 

[RWB]

Side note: NU's resident Normal/Flying type will be Dodrio, not this.

Are you sure about that?

Dodrio could possibly jump a tier with its new toys and stat buff.