Gen 1 Toxic on Zapdos

[Mekkah]

So I was sitting here thinking about stuff, when my thoughts dwelled on how badly Zapdos gets owned in RBY with Golem/Rhydon in play. Drill Peck tickles them, Thunder Wave and Thunderbolt do nothing...and then some people attempt to beat them by Mimicing Earthquake (25% chance too), but Zapdos still loses that one on one unless Golem/Rhydon are severely weakened. There's also been the idea of using Reflect/Rest to stall them out, which would work if they don't CH at all, but a sleeping Zapdos is a useless Zapdos in all other situations.

This is why I thought of using Toxic on Zapdos. Think about it: why is Toxic (and poison in general) not used in RBY? Because poisoning something means a Pokemon can no longer be frozen, put to sleep or paralyzed. But our target is Golem/Rhydon...
- it is generally Chansey or Alakazam or sometimes Snorlax who gets frozen. Golem and Rhydon are both weak to Ice and won't be taking Ice Beams besides out of desperation. And if they are desperate you should be on the winning hand anyway.
- sleep is generally gotten in on the first turn, often on Alakazam, sometimes even on Golem/Rhydon. A sleeping Pokemon generally stays asleep and alive until all sleep inflicting opponents are dead, so nothing else is put to sleep. Or they are switched into Explosions, of course.
- paralysis is generally inflicted through Thunder Wave (which these Grounds are immune to), Stun Spore (which comes from Exeggutor, who would generally be Mega Draining for the OHKO or Psychicing for the 2HKO) or Body Slam paralysis. Which only happens if they switch into Body Slams, which I admit would be a downside of poisoning them, but then again Snorlax generally carries Surf or at least Earthquake while Tauros has Blizzard.

So the set would become

Zapdos
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Drill Peck

You just have to be careful that you don't poison Alakazam/Chansey but most people just switch in their Ground right away, not to mention these two tend to be statused already most of the time. And really, what's there to lose by putting Toxic there? Agility, Mimic and Reflect could hardly ever be called practical, I'd say on paper Toxic is at least as good.

Thoughts and test results welcome to this dead forum.

 

[Vineon]

I've seen it used and I dont have a problem with it. The fourth move on zapdos matters so damn little, so why not. Light Screen/Rest I've seen used as well to stand toe to toe with a chansey, zapdos will usually win the 1v1 in that situation. But I think I'd like Thunder better. There would at least be some occasions in which Thunder would kill while tbolt would not so having them both would make sense in that regard.

I dont like mimic either, I would never use that move competitively on anything. Having 4 moves really doesnt mean you need to use 4 anyway. I dont recall ever using Persian's filler 4th move anytime I used it, ever. It is weird how irrevelant the 4th move on some rby pokemon is when you consider how important complete movesets are in the other gens.

And toxic will not fix the Golem/Rhydon problem seeing it reverts to regular poison as soon as they switch out, meaning they'll just laugh it off anyway for a good while and remain a threat to zapdos. But I'm sure you know that and at least it is still something done to them as opposed to nothing.

But there is something much better to be done than poisoning them, Mekkah, if you DO predict a rhydon/golem switch, the better thing you can do is counterreact by prediction and send something that fully counters them instead of using toxic. Not only do you now get a free turn on something but you dont run the risk of poisoning something else and you dont need to switch out of a Rhydon hit right after.

If there is something good about using Zapdos in rby in an environment with rock/grounds still living, it is to use it as a lure for them. But then again, I say the best zapdos approach is to keep it hidden until rhydon/golem is dealt with by something else in the team. Golem especially sometimes blows up early.... unless you've shown your zapdos, which in this case, you can be sure it will be kept longer.

 

[Mekkah]

You can still use the luring method with Toxic. Poison them first, and then proceed to send in Exeggutor or Starmie every time you predict a switch to them (and you aren't running on high risk).

I believe RBY Toxic is like GSC Toxic in nearly every regard, among others in that it strikes after a Pokemon "moved" instead of end-of-turn. Which means every time they come in they immediatly take damage. Not sure if that's so much better than end of turn, considering Roar/Whirlwind don't work in trainer battles in RBY anyway (so you can't do the GSC Spikes/Toxic/phaze thing), but just thought it should be noted.

I agree completely on Mimic, it is way too shaky and situational, yet I've seen it used. Never thought of Light Screen/Rest before, but I always thought Rhydon/Golem were a much bigger threat (to Zapdos anyway) than Chansey. Plus Light Screen/Rest puts you in the same situation as Reflect/Rest, except you die much quicklier to Tauros and Snorlax (it probably doesn't matter against Rhydon/Golem because if they had those they'd bring them in instead of Chansey anyway).

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I would rather go for Hyper Beam or Agility in the last spot, saving it for a 'late game sweep' when Golem/Rhydon are out of the way. The issue with posioning Rhydon/Golem doesn't help that much imo as they still live the same length of time whether or not they take that 6%. Golem will probably blow up on Exeggutor eventually anyways, so I'd say without Toxic, Zapdos will still fare the same.

 

[Thorns]

I usually have Light Screen in the last slot, but Toxic is fine. Why not predict and send in a Ground counter instead?

 

[Arkani]

I think, Toxic is pretty useless, because these 6% they take every time they move is barely nothing and it won't stop them laughing at you.
If you do use Agility / Reflect or Light Screen, you have a better option to lategamesweep which imo Zapdos is ment for and those players who show their Zapdos right at the beginning of a battle shouldn't play it anyways.

Your Drill Peck will do 9-11% to Golem and 9-10% to Rhydon.
If they switch in two times, you did more Damage with Drill Peck, as they take with Toxic (18% compared to 12%), because if they switch out immedietly they won't even get the effect of Toxic and the other 6%.

The second thing about Drill Peck is the small chance to score a critical hit.
17-20% to Rhydon and 18-21% to Golem are 3 turns of Toxic...
Toxic doesn't even help you to sweep in the lategame, because neither it protects you from attacks nor makes you faster.

Mimic is useless on Zapdos, because you have a 50% chance to get an usefull move from Golem (Explosion / Earthquake), but he doesn't care with his STAB Rockslide.
But Rhydon is a thing it depends, because if the Rhydon is running Surf, then you've won, but most Rhydons don't run Surf, so why choose Mimic on Zapdos?

 

[Mekkah]

You can use Toxic and still do the send-a-Ground-counter thing next. And guess what, they will take the 6% damage too, whereas if you Drill Peck you will just do 4-5% more damage per turn and give them a free turn to predict your switch-in. This only happens once with Toxic.

Obviously saving Zapdos until later is a fine strategy...if you're willing to play RBY with effectively four Pokemon for the largest part of the match (one gets put to sleep, one is Zapdos...unless you put Zapdos to sleep which makes the whole point moot).

 

[Vineon]

It isnt too hard to play most of the battle with 4, that is actually what usually happens anyway in every rby match. You do also put something to sleep so it isnt like you start at 4-6 because you intend to keep zapdos until the end.

 

[Arkani]

Yes but if you Toxic that ground then you showed the Zapdos, which prevents the opponent vom exploding with Golem on something.
And if you send in the Zapdos, Toxic and switch out, they take 6%.
If you switch in again and the ground comes in, then it's not said, that he uses a move, he can just switch out to scare you away and if he does so, then he won't take the other 6%.

To play 4 vs. 6, as Vin said, mostly you have one sleepy Pokemon on each side so it's 4 vs. 5 and for me it's not really a problem, because i use Hitmonlee on my main team, which you play like Zapdos.

Compared to advanced you play DDmence or DDtar like RBY Zapdos, you weaken the counters and then you sweep, so you play advanced 5-6 and if your opponent follows the same strategy then you play with equal Pokemon.

 

[133tSneasel]

I was wondering if you could use Substitute in the last slot. Or use this move set, because maybe this would help

Zapdos would use Substitute
Then opponent switches, to like Golem/Rhydon or whoever. (Maybe Chansey or Starmie)
Then on the switch Zapdos uses Toxic and whatever takes 6% they will either switch or leave them in. Depending on if they think R/B/Y Toxic is good enough to stay or or not. And even if they switch, you can Substitute up again, or use Toxic or something else.
I'm not

 

[Arkani]

The problem is, that you can only substitute 4 times because the lack of Leftovers.

 

[rbyis4ever]

Unless the chip damage is somehow going to reduce the amount of turns it takes to defeat Rhydon/Golem, it is a wasted turn to apply Toxic.

The problem is, that you can only substitute 4 times because the lack of Leftovers.

Actually, I'd say the problem with that idea is that you'll have a 99% dead Zapdos by the time you get that far. They'd likely Earthquake once in prediction of a switch if they came in on Zapdos, giving a total of 5 turns.

But even worse... I'd say there's a good chance they'd expect you to switch to a water on the turn they bring in the ground (generally a good tactic), and thus, opt not to bring in Rhydon in fear of having the tables turned on them. This could lead to a poisoned Chansey or similar...


If you want to pull off a wild trick, try a Body Slamming Jolteon. It's a crap shoot, but a paralyzed ground is absolutely FUCKED.

 

[Edge Of Pain]

well, yes and no.

So I was sitting here thinking about stuff, when my thoughts dwelled on how badly Zapdos gets owned in RBY with Golem/Rhydon in play. Drill Peck tickles them, Thunder Wave and Thunderbolt do nothing...and then some people attempt to beat them by Mimicing Earthquake (25% chance too), but Zapdos still loses that one on one unless Golem/Rhydon are severely weakened. There's also been the idea of using Reflect/Rest to stall them out, which would work if they don't CH at all, but a sleeping Zapdos is a useless Zapdos in all other situations.

This is why I thought of using Toxic on Zapdos. Think about it: why is Toxic (and poison in general) not used in RBY? Because poisoning something means a Pokemon can no longer be frozen, put to sleep or paralyzed. But our target is Golem/Rhydon...
- it is generally Chansey or Alakazam or sometimes Snorlax who gets frozen. Golem and Rhydon are both weak to Ice and won't be taking Ice Beams besides out of desperation. And if they are desperate you should be on the winning hand anyway.
- sleep is generally gotten in on the first turn, often on Alakazam, sometimes even on Golem/Rhydon. A sleeping Pokemon generally stays asleep and alive until all sleep inflicting opponents are dead, so nothing else is put to sleep. Or they are switched into Explosions, of course.
- paralysis is generally inflicted through Thunder Wave (which these Grounds are immune to), Stun Spore (which comes from Exeggutor, who would generally be Mega Draining for the OHKO or Psychicing for the 2HKO) or Body Slam paralysis. Which only happens if they switch into Body Slams, which I admit would be a downside of poisoning them, but then again Snorlax generally carries Surf or at least Earthquake while Tauros has Blizzard.

So the set would become

Zapdos
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Drill Peck

You just have to be careful that you don't poison Alakazam/Chansey but most people just switch in their Ground right away, not to mention these two tend to be statused already most of the time. And really, what's there to lose by putting Toxic there? Agility, Mimic and Reflect could hardly ever be called practical, I'd say on paper Toxic is at least as good.

Thoughts and test results welcome to this dead forum.

i agree, toxicing would be a huge advantage, and poison isn't used much in RBY which is also true. however, you can just ice beam grounds out of the way, if they are rubbish at predicting your switch out and even more hopeless at knowing that the pokemon is going to use ice beam. but it's a good idea, your opponent wouldn't want to bringe out a badly poioned pokemon due to risks that he/she would rather not take. so it's like putting golem/rhydon out of action, not defeating them. oh and by the way, is this fire/leaf type of RedBlueYellow or just true RedBlueYellow?