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DPP OU Toxic Spikes + Suicune: A Deadly Combination

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by TAY, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    On the eve of Garchomp’s removal from standard play, I figured I would post my current favorite team. I actually constructed it together with Jimbo when he was my Tutee a few rounds back, so I hope he doesn’t mind that I’m posting this! I had a great deal of success with this team, obtaining #2 on the smogon ladder back when I was working 12 hours a day, and iirc Jimbo had a fair amount of success with it as well. I'm sorry in advance for the giant blocks of text, but I really like things to be thoroughly explained =)


    The idea behind this team is that Toxic Spikes + Suicune is a nearly unbeatable force. In theory, this is true, as Celebi and Vaporeon are both easy to play around with tspikes on the field, and Zapdos has a huge amount of trouble with Stealth Rocks. In practice this obviously isn’t the case, since there are a large number of pokemon which, although they can’t beat suicune 1v1, can weaken it to the point that something else can kill it (Such as SD and choice pokes), and Celebi and Zapdos are a nuisance even with entry hazards. Still, the combo proved very effective, as the other members of the team provide amazing defensive coverage, and allow me to stay on the offensive for most of the game. I got away with not using a spinner by simply not having any SR weak pokes and using appropriate items, and having even one layer of toxic spikes down makes huge threats such as Garchomp and Deoxys-E a piece of cake.

    So here we go:

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    Roserade @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 20 HP/236 Spd/252 SAtk
    Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Leaf Storm

    Oh you better believe I was frustrated when all those lead Azelfs started running around. Even so, Roserade is a pretty great lead, and an incredibly useful and underrated pokemon. 236 Speed EVs with HP Fire gets me to 301 speed, enough to outrun anyone trying to outrun neutral base 100’s. Even if it sounds stupid, I run HP Fire over HP Ice because no one sees it coming. The only pokes ice is useful against are Salamence, Gliscor, and Dragonite, and all of them can see it coming from a mile away. IMO it’s a lot more helpful that people will switch out of Salamence/Gliscor and in toScizor/Forry/Skarm and give me a free KO. The speed drop sucks, but it rarely plays a factor in matches (Roserade/PoryZ are uncommon, Moltres is uncommon and exclusively scarfed or bulky, Lucario is usually Adamant). I chose Black Sludge over Focus Sash for a couple of reasons. The first (and simplest) is that I really just don’t like focus sash, since it becomes irrelevant as soon as SR gets set, or as soon as TTar/Hippo/Aboma come out. The more in depth reason is that this team has a lot more trouble against stall than against offensive/mixed teams, and being able to stay alive longer against Celebi and anthing using Ice Beam is a huge plus - I like to be able to lay tspikes more than once per match, in case they get absorbed/spun away. I also feel that I’m good enough at managing first turn plays that I can keep Roserade alive until at least mid-game.

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    [​IMG]
    Gengar @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Atk/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - Explosion

    Gengar is here for resistances and speed. Roserade’s sleep powder allowed me to drop hypnosis for Explosion, which will KO Blissey on average, will KO Garchomp even if it holds yache berry, and is a nice little surprise for people who like to switch around to make Gengar faint due to LO damage. Hasty over naïve because I need it to take Infernape’s Grass Knot more than Hera’s Megahorn, and I didn’t want to squander Gengar’s mediocre (as opposed to abysmal) Special Defense. With resistances/immunities, high special attack and speed, great coverage, explosion, and no real counters, Gengar is here to pick up anything that slips through the cracks; anything that should have been countered but for some reason wasn’t. Also beats non-Bullet Punch Lucario.

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    [​IMG]
    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/224 Def/8 Spd/24 SAtk
    Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Surf

    My only real sweeper and stat-upper. In addition, Suicune serves as my primary switch-in to a number of pokemon, including Infernape, Blissey, Bronzong, and anything I think is using a sleep move. Depending on the situation I will sometimes bluff Ice Beam or HP: Electric, though in the end the extra survivability provided by Rest is way more useful than either of those moves. Sleep Talk is pretty much a requirement with rest due to the offensive metagame. Something I love Suicune for is being able to lure out set-up bait for Roserade. People will switch in Celebi/Zapdos/Blissey/Bulky Waters, all of which Roserade loves to lay TSpikes on.

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    [​IMG]
    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/80 Def/176 SDef
    Sassy nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Reflect
    - Gyro Ball
    - Explosion

    Once again, I can forego hypnosis and take on another useful move. Reflect is a huge aid against offensive teams, and makes Gyarados, Lucario, etc. seem a lot less dangerous. This is sadly my only even reasonable switch-in to Gyarados, and I’ll often have to explode to deal with it. I went with sassy in order to help deal with Gengar, who is the biggest threat to this team in all of OU (and any without Blissey or a specialized Metagross). This is my primary sweeper Deoe counter, though I do have secondaries in Heatran and Suicune, and Roserade only takes 90% from Psychic if they don’t run LO. This also makes a great counter to DD Salamence. In order to beat Garchomp I usually just explode on it if I see an SD, since it will be 2HKO’d even if I use reflect. I'm sure you can see now how it would be problematic if my opponent runs both Garchomp and Gyara...though of course I have alternative ways of dealing with both.

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    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Fire Blast

    Garchomp is probably the best revenge killer OU has (well, had) to offer. This guy comes out on every double-KO in order to score a (usually) free kill, and is my only answer to Gyarados once it has a DD. I initially went with Jolly over Adamant because, when this team was made, most Deoxys only ran 96 Speed EV’s; however it proved useful against agility Metagross and Empoleon and against other scarfchomps, so I decided to keep it. I don’t use Hasty/Naïve because Fire Blast 2HKO’s and OHKO’s Skarm and Forry, respectively, either way. I actually like not pairing Garchomp with Sandstorm, since it allows me to guarantee hits on slower outraging SD Chomps.

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    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 28 HP/228 Spd/252 SAtk
    Hasty nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Toxic
    - Explosion

    I had planned on using Tyranitar in this slot for no other reason than that I had no ground weak pokes, but I tried Heatran first since I realized I had no fire attacks. A couple days before I and Jimbo were making the team, someone had used a Toxic Heracross to poison my Gliscor on the switch, and I thought it was a pretty nifty idea so I stuck it onto Heatran. As it turns out, pretty much all of Heatran’s switch-ins (everything except Heatran, Blissey, and Starmie) are ruined by poison, often enabling a Suicune sweep. In addition, Toxic is my pre-emptive measure against Gyarados, since even if they switch it in on a Fire Blast I can Toxic (people will DD first 95% of the time) and then bring in Suicune and switch between that and Bronzong to wear Gyarados out; and it also helps against tspike immune Zapdos and Togekiss. Explosion over Taunt was a toss up for me, and there have been times when I wanted taunt to stop recovery (super useful with tspikes) or status, but overall Explosion has been more helpful in keeping this team on the offensive, and it allows Heatran to be somewhat useful after taking status itself. The speed EV’s allow it to outrun Adamant Hera, as well as Adamant Mamoswine and, of course, other Heatrans. I went with Hasty over Naïve because I need a secondary Draco Meteor sponge, as Bronzong can’t absorb them all alone. The most common physical types all OHKO Heatran anyway, but it can usually take a surf in order to poison Vaporeon or Milotic or Earth Power/Explosion on Starmie.

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    Problems:

    Hail: Oh god hail teams are the absolute bane of this team’s existence. Even if Abomasnow didn’t thoroughly rape this team, they usually carry annoying as hell Tentacruel to eat my tspikes, spin my rocks, and lay tspikes – and it isn’t like Roserade loves to switch back in when the entire fucking opposing team is spamming 100% accuracy Blizzards. Oh yeah, and check out how my only Walrein switch-in is Suicune…I pretty much have to pray that I’ll be able to poison it via tspikes or Heatran, or else win with last-poke-Suicune, which is impossible if they saved their Abomasnow. So yeah, not a fun match, but they are fortunately few and far between. My strategy for this match is pretty much to just lay SR and get out Heatran at every possible opportunity.

    Gyarados: I don’t really have a pokemon that can reliably switch into Gyarados. Usually I just explode with Bronzong, though probably 60% of the time I can beat it with Heatran, and another 20% of the time it gets put to sleep or worn down by SR. This is pretty much just a matter of staying offensive.

    Ninjask: All my teams are Ninjask weak. I hate PHazing, and as much as I love Taunt there aren’t too many viable users.

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    Thanks for reading, especially if you managed to get through the whole thing!
  2. Insan3

    Insan3

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Great team, the only suggestion I would make is maybe Light Clay on Bronzong as you'll get some more turns out of your protect, Also I think Roserade should have sash because in a metagame so offensively, many leads can come in, out run her and maybe kill her. I'll rate more later but bus is here for school.
  3. .Baris.

    .Baris.

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    96
    Mamoswine + Magnezone Weak,replace Bronzong with Skarmory @ Shed Shell.Roars Wallrein and Ninjask away,beats Taunt-Less Gyarados and most Tentacruel's come in to Spin Spikes/Rocks out,they mostly dont know how much Brave Bird do to a standard Tentacruel (60%~).Chomp is Uber since Today ! Dugtrio would make a great job on chomp's place (Trapps Tentacruel and Magnezone).You wouldnt have a hail team problem anymore,SR + T-Spikes up = win.

    Hope it helped.
  4. Stathakis

    Stathakis I hax people in real life
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Field Ranger

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    well, seeing as I've played against this team multiple times, I've got quite a bit to say. the problem? I can't really say it all right now, but sdlo chomp is a bitch to you, and was, in both games iirc, the reason I was able to overpower you. sdluke after chomp has been weakened is also pretty mean to you, if it carries bullet punch.

    real rate coming soon!
  5. august

    august free the robots
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winnerwon the 5th Official Smogon Tournament

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    Since ive played this team a few times i feel i should give it a rate. One thing i remember you saying that isnt on your problems list is Substitute Calm Mind Suicune. You either have to Explode on it (and only 1 of your Exploders is faster than the Timid variant) or bring in Roserade, in which case there are only 4 turns to kill it due to Pressure (i did infact use SubCM Cune against this team, although i lost due to myself playing horrible and you adapting around your weakness quite well). Not much else to say other than i like this team a lot, nice work
  6. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Ooh I'm actually thankful you posted this TAY, I was thinking about it too with Garchomp being banned and all ;-) I did have a lot of success with this which was fun :o I made a few changes to the team from time to time but I usually just went back to the original as it worked the best.

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