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Toxic Spikes

Discussion in 'Dragonspiral Tower' started by lmitchell0012, Jan 22, 2011.

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  1. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Banned deucer.

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    In 4th generation OU, toxic spikes was quite popular, but as more and more threats are introduced in this new metagame, some might question the viability of this move. In addition to this, toxic may seem like a superior option, as it is able to hit many foes that toxic spikes cannot (such as levitaters and flying types). I'm creating this thread to discuss the pros and cons of using toxic spikes, and to determine whether toxic spikes or just toxic is more effective in the new metagame.

    Who gets it:

    By level up
    -Beedrill
    -Nidoqueen (as nidorina)
    -Nidoking (as nidorino)
    -Tentacruel
    -Cloyster
    -Foretress
    -Qwilfish
    -Roserade (as roselia)
    -Drapion
    -Dasutodasu

    By breeding
    -Venomoth
    -Omastar
    -Ariados
    -Foretress
    -Pendoraa

    Now, the obvious advantage of using toxic spikes over toxic is that instead of having to cast it multiple times, you only need to place it once. However, one layer of toxic spikes only has the effect of regular poison, and does not worsen over time like toxic. For that effect, you need two layers of toxic spikes (I believe). Another thing to note about toxic spikes, as stated earlier, is that flying types and levitators are immune to it.

    Having said all of this, let's compare the two moves.

    Toxic Spikes

    Advantages
    -Only need to use it once
    -Two layers will mimic the effect of toxic

    Disadvantages
    -Steel types are immune
    -Flying types are immune
    -Poison types are immune
    -Levitators are immune
    -Pokemon with guts get a free boost
    -Natural Cure
    -Rapid spin
    -Poison heal
    -Special attackers don't really care about being poisoned

    Toxic

    Advantages
    -Unlike toxic spikes, you can hit levitators and flying types
    -Rapid spin won't work, as it isn't an entry hazard

    Disadvantages
    -Same as for toxic spikes, except that levitators and flying types are not immune to it.

    Well, those are my thought on this move. Please feel free to add your thoughts about this.
  2. Missingno. Master

    Missingno. Master

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    Why wouldn't special attackers care about being poisoned? They take damage like anything else. Perhaps you're thinking of burn, which special attackers don't mind as much since the Attack drop doesn't affect what they do.
  3. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Banned deucer.

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    Yeah, I was confusing burn with poison. Sorry about that.
  4. blasphemy1

    blasphemy1

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    I think it's also important to note that once Toxic Spikes are up, the opponent can Heal Bell/Aromatherapy all they want but when they come back in they are going to get poisoned once more. Whereas if you Toxic their Swampert and they bring in Blissey, you have to poison it with Toxic again.
  5. breh

    breh
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    Toxic Spikes are arguably the best entry hazard. Such a pity so much is immune to them though.

    random Poison types are irritating as well.

    Tentacruel, forretress, and Omastar are its best users IMO. Haven't tried pendoraa though. uhhh... nidoqueen isn't that bad with it either.
  6. PlatinumDude

    PlatinumDude

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    Not only are Poison Pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes, they remove the hazard when they switch in to battle, unless that Pokemon is Crobat or Weezing, the former of which is the Flying type and the latter of which has the Levitate ability. In other words, only grounded Poison Pokemon absorb Toxic Spikes.
  7. BKC

    BKC
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    Toxic Spikes+team preview is amazing. You know whether it's worth setting them up or not (don't set them up vs a team of Metagross/Scizor/Lucario/Mence/Latios/Heatran), whether they have a random poison type you need to remove first or not (Roserade, the garbage Pokemon whos name begins with a D), etc. Gen 5 really helped T-Spikes out.
  8. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Side note, you forgot Gengar. >_>
  9. min min

    min min

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    Pendoraa seems worthy in a UU tier as it has that beastly speed giving it the fastest Toxic Spikes in the game. Remember Froslass in DPPt UU? Yeah, this shit's 2 base points faster, and can take out Espeon and Xatu with the right move just like Froslass. Like Nattorei, who has those high-BP moves to work with, Pendoraa doesn't need to invest in attack to utilise Earthquake, Stone Edge and most importantly STAB Megahorn effectively.

    But then again, Froslass can spinblock on its lonesome in addition to setting up Spikes, in addition to having Wonder Guard under hail.
  10. EpitomeOfFailure

    EpitomeOfFailure

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    Also Toxic Spikes lose no effinency if the opponet has a Natural Cure mon - just apply what Plasphermy1 said about Heal Bell.
    Unless the opposition has a way to remove Toxic Spikes before they send NC mon back in the ability only makes sure their Blissey/Starmie/etc. gets badly poisoned if you´ve had a chance to set up one more layer.
  11. Farewell

    Farewell

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    Doesn't Omastar get it too? Just checked Smogon 4h gen; it does.

    Also include Shed Skin foes, Poison Revenge (Zangoose's other ability), Pokemon with Immunity, Marvel Scale, Quick Feet, etc. the move Refresh (which is an advantage in having Toxic, as they may not switch out if it is their final Pokemon, where as Toxic can re-poison them).

    Also mention how Baton Passing Substitute, or using Safeguard can make Toxic Spikes less worthy than Toxic as once Sub and Safeguard break, Toxic can be used, whereas Toxic Spikes requires them to re-enter. (Think Latias using Safeguard to get teammates in).

    IMPORTANT: Note how the new Item introduced in Gen V: Balloon has allowed more foes to enter untouched by Toxic Spikes, although some are Steel types, others would normally be affected.
  12. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    The move also suffers from Nidoking's increased viability, Espeon/Xatu's new ability and Tentacruel's also increased a bit in usage with Boiling Water at its disposle. Still a good move but i usually prefer rocks and normal Spikes to it.
  13. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Banned deucer.

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    Just wanted to add to the thread that magic mirror espeon will also make it difficult to get your spikes up. Foretress should probably start running a bug type move instead of explosion to discourage him from switching into you so much.
  14. breh

    breh
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    You have never ever played with forretress ever have you

    It's called payback

    (I ran a Forry a while back; it was Toxic Spikes/RS/Payback/filler (volt change, in this case, which was hilarious to use on Gyarados and had some nice utility; I later switched to Gyro Ball I think))
  15. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Banned deucer.

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    Not really, but then again I haven't taken the time to master the movepool of every single pokemon...
  16. DracoMihawk

    DracoMihawk

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    well you should if you're gonna give people advice on what sets to run.
  17. breh

    breh
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    did you ever see a 4th gen forretress run bug Bite EDIT: (in a battle against you I mean)?

    every single set on Forry's analysis for 4th gen has payback as an option..
  18. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Banned deucer.

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    Well, now I know. I never used foretress on my team so I didn't know it got payback.
  19. tehy

    tehy

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    And no one runs explosion on forretress with the nerf.

    Besides, talking about a pokemon without knowing one of its most commonly used moves-one that was widely used in gen 4 and widely used now-is stupid.
  20. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Poison types removing them upon entry needs to be a disadvantage in the OP, as does Toxic's 85% accuracy.

    T-Spikes are an amazing hazard, and can be used with another status move on the team (Toxic, T-Wave etc) to hit those who would otherwise not be hit by the spikes.
  21. SJCrew

    SJCrew Believer, going on a journey...
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    This is exactly the kind of shit that forces me to run a Poison type on every single team. Which basically means I just give up and use Rain just so I can run Croak.
  22. LizardMan

    LizardMan p good
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    I like Toxic Spikes since it softens up the defensive cores of teams. Sure, alot of the metagame may be immune to it, but alot of defensive walls succumb to it.

    Hyper Offensive sweepers like Blaziken and Kingdra don't like it either.
  23. Salem1

    Salem1

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    Remember Gravity when you're on about Toxic Spikes, no one has mentioned it yet!
  24. PokéMontage

    PokéMontage

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    Toxic Spikes are cool.

    Also, I know you acknowledged the mistake already, but the OP still says that Special attackers don't care about Poison status, which really needs to be taken out.

    90%
  25. Farewell

    Farewell

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    Enough beating up on 1 person, I think 1 scolding is enough; after all isn't it "stupid" to beat a dead horse?

    On a positive note, Toxic Spikes can be mentioned for use on Stall teams, that would probably require them most, as it lessens the need for the move Toxic, and does take time to build damage, requiring a strong defensive core.
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