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Gen 1 Toxic

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by monster, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. monster

    monster

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    This idea has been rolling around in my head for a while, but since no one plays Gen I, let alone Gen I UU, I've never had a chance to use it, so this might not be as legitimate as it could be. However, I hope you will bear with me, and at least give this strategy the time of day.

    Toxic has been rendered useless in Gen I for a few reasons, not least because of the lack of stall, and perhaps also because it has terrible animation. However, consider the potential of Fire Spin/Clamp/Wrap + Toxic? the combo would be so deadly that your victory is so much as assured. The only thing you need is someone to be forced to switch into Toxic, and if you're faster (which Ninetales has a high chance of being in Gen I OU), you will only have to use Fire Spin 1-2 times before the Pokemon faints. That's significant.

    A common switch in to Ninetales would either be Starmie or Rhydon/Golem. Now, Starmie is serious business, so you don't keep your Ninetales in on him if you value your life. But if - IF, and this is highly likely, their Starmie is out of the picture, Ninetales can easily take out Rhydon or Golem. Consider the following set:

    Fire Spin
    Confuse Ray/Body Slam/Reflect
    Toxic
    Fire Blast

    Toxic never found its way onto Ninetales' default set on Smogon, but he may just have found his niche, if not in OU, then certainly in UU. The same could go for Charizard, who would have the set:

    Fire Blast
    Fire Spin
    Toxic
    Earthquake/Body Slam/Hyper Beam

    Similarly, Cloyster could do well with Toxic with the set:

    Toxic
    Clamp
    Ice Beam/Explosion
    Surf

    Also, Dragonite:

    Wrap
    Toxic
    Agility / Hyper Beam
    Surf / Hyper Beam / Blizzard

    So what do y'all think? Tauros would be a major, major problem as well, of course, but if somehow he's eliminated because either they're new or you're really good, this strategy might just be deadly, as Koga said it would be. Since there are no Steel Types in Gen I, or even any viable Poison types, Toxic is well on its way to being a legitimate strategy with which to be reckoned. I hope if I ever find myself playing RBY that I will be successful in using it, or even for that matter see others using it(!)

    Toxic is pretty much lame on its own in RBY, but the ramifications of Toxic + a trapping move, for all intents and purposes, have yet to be measured. Probably a good Pokemon to replace on the usual OU team would be either Exeggutor or Starmie.
  2. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Until Gen 3, Toxic resets to regular poison upon switching out and regular poison is a paltry 1/16 damage per turn (at least it's a serviceable 1/8 in GSC). It's literally better than not being under status because it protects from PAR / FRZ.

    ... As I realize this simple fact is not explicitly stated anywhere among our old-gen articles. No wonder.
  3. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    What. There's a ton of people who play Gen I.

    Wrap + Toxic is a nice idea in theory. The problem is that if your opponent has anything left with Thunder Wave or Stun Spore (note: these are found on 3-4 Pokemon on your average RBY OU team), it doesn't work. Why not? Because they can trade status with you, rendering your Wrapper totally useless. And in the meantime, you've probably Toxiced Starmie or Alakazam, which looooove Toxic because it means they can't be paralysed.

    I have been beaten by a Toxic Dragonite once before, because I didn't have anything left capable of Thunder Wave (my Starmie, Chansey, and Exeggutor were all dead, as I recall, and I was trying for a Withdraw Slowbro sweep).

    Oh. You haven't played RBY before. That explains it.

    In RBY, you can switch out of trapping moves.

    Oh, and there is one definitely-viable Poison type (Gengar) with another (Victreebel) being kinda-sorta usable.


    EDIT: @Mr. E: There are a couple of pokemon that would prefer to be paralysed than Toxiced. Slowbro and Exeggutor both don't mind paralysis that much, and Egg's put on a timer by Toxic while Slowbro's going to have to Rest earlier. Still generally not worth the turn - except in the specific case of Toxic + trapper vs. Withdraw Slowbro, as getting Slowbro to switch out is a major victory in itself. There's like 1 other person besides me who uses Withdraw Slowbro, though, so it's not all that relevant.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  4. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I dunno, I think I'd still rather take 1/16 of my health per turn than risk a full paralysis even with Slowbro or Exeggutor. Mr. E is right, Toxic is a garbage status in RBY and actually confers an advantage to your opponent.

    Poison doesn't exactly help Wrap get going, since it can't target Gengar, one of the best counters to Wrappers. Instead, it just augments damage output if you are in a situation where Wrap would work great on its own anyway - and to get in that situation, you need to paralyze the fast things and not accidentally poison them!

    Literally the only use I can think of for Toxic where it isn't totally worthless is on Zapdos as a kind of desperate attempt to get damage on Golem and Rhydon. Even then, it's still pretty bad and you'll want to be able to take down Golem/Rhydon with other Pokemon anyway.
  5. monster

    monster

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    Oh okay. That's pretty dumb.

    No, I have played Gen I, perhaps not as much as other gens since Gen II was already out when I started playing online and it was only recently that PO implemented it. What I meant by trapping is that they can't move. I didn't mean that they can't escape.

    I suppose Mr. E's comment renders this strategy completely moot, then. Darn. Don't Arcanine and Rapidash get Agility in Gen I? I don't recall seeing their sets with Agility + Fire Spin here. That with Hyper Beam/Fire Blast would make them serious contenders, I would think. I just wish Fire types could be given the time of day in Gen I. Not one of them ever has.

    I would really like to meet these people who play Gen I. Is it on Showdown? I tried making a team there but was distracted when it asked me what item and ability to give my Pokemon.
  6. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Well, Arcanine doesn't get Fire Spin in Gen 1. That's a breeding move in Gen 2.

    Right now, Pokemon Online is the best RBY simulator out there. That's where you can get the most RBY battles. RBY on PS! still needs testing.
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Well, it depends on the situation. 999 Def 999 Spc Slowbro facing down Dragonite would much prefer to be paralysed than poisoned, because poison does 6x the damage of Wrap alone. Likewise for Rhydon facing Dragonite (but Dragonite would, of course, do better to just Surf it into oblivion).

    But yes, it's a garbage status most of the time and the only time I'd ever even consider it would be on Zapdos since it's technically Zapdos's best option against GolDon. Though really, Zapdos is better forgetting about fighting GolDon and relying on Surf Snorlax or Mega Drain Egg or something to get rid of them.

    Rapidash with Agility+FireSpin is outclassed by Moltres with Agility+FireSpin due to the godlike stats of the latter (and after Agility, both outspeed everything anyway). Moltres is, however, mostly outclassed in turn by Agility+Wrap Dragonite since Wrap is more accurate than Fire Spin, won't unfreeze a frozen 'mon sent into it, and Dragonite learns moves that can devastate Golem and Rhydon whereas Moltres does not (also a stronger Hyper Beam for finishing Chansey).

    Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown each have a few. PO is currently the better simulator, but has less RBYers on average - stressing "on average", I've seen 30 RBYers on there at times.
    monster likes this.
  8. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa

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    Toxic is shit in Gen 1. You need to rewire this team.
  9. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    This isn't a team.
  10. Bedschibaer

    Bedschibaer does it for free
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    Toxic is pretty much useless on a fast fire spin/wrap/clamp user. let's take wrap dragonite, in a scenario where you pulled off an agility, wrap can wear down almost every pokemon anyways, wasting a turn on toxic just gives the opponent a bigger time window to stop dragonite (or whatever pokemon you are using) from doing it's job. Wrap doesn't hurt Gengar, but neither does Toxic. Wrap does barely any damage to Golem/Rhydon, but with Surf/Blizzard those shouldn't be a problem either.

    So apart from the fact that you prevent the opponents mons to be statused with something more crippling, you are wasting a moveslot too. if you toxic something beforehand and start wraping/clamping/spinning then you are doing what you would do, but faster.
    dedic likes this.
  11. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Like I said, one exception is when Dragonite faces down a Withdraw Slowbro that's pre-boosted. Dragonite can take any non-Ice hit from even +6 Slowbro, so it's worth it to throw Toxic first and then start Wrapping - Withdraw Slowbro is so insanely physically tough that Dragonite's got about a snowball's chance in hell of actually wearing it down without Slowbro just healing off the damage.
  12. Bedschibaer

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    how often do you see that? i haven't played gen 1 in quite some time now, but i've never seen a withdraw slowbro before. i kinda like the idea, what do you usually overgo for withdraw? Twave or Rest? Is it even worth using a moveslot on Withdraw, imo Slowbro is one of the physically bulkiest things in the meta already.
    dedic likes this.
  13. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Twave, definitely. You need Rest to stick around. Withdraw helps him stall out other Slowbros with its ridiculous PP, it also helps it tank Explosions better, which otherwise hit it super hard, high Defense or not.

    It's not super-common, but it's definitely viable, and at the very least magic9mushroom is pretty likely to use it.
  14. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Psychic/Withdraw/Amnesia/Rest. Serves a few purposes:

    1) Stops Tauros from achieving a "cold" (ie without crits) 4HKO, meaning that it can't lock you in a Rest-loop forever. T-wave also screws Tauros up, but Tauros can come in while Slowbro is Resting to avoid that - once Withdraw's up, on the other hand, it's up. Avoiding the 3HKO from Rhydon's EQ is also neat.
    2) Slowbro's very vulnerable to being Exploded on, particularly while it's asleep. With its Defense at +1 or +2, it's much harder to put Slowbro into the range of Tauros' Hyper Beam with only one Explosion.
    3) The given set is a hard counter to Body Slam or Surf "Tanklax" (with Reflect/Amnesia/Rest) as well as to the more standard "Tobybro", because Withdraw's 64 PP allows it to stall them out of Rest and then 5HKO or 7HKO with Psychic.

    It is, indeed, not very common, but I felt that one matchup was worth noting even if it's not sufficient reason to actually use Toxic Dragonite.
    monster likes this.
  15. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    Ayup. "Thou shalt not burn Starmie" is even more universal than "Thou shalt not switch into Tauros".

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