1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Toxicroak (Revamp)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by alexwolf, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    [​IMG]
    Toxicroak

    [Overview]

    <p>Toxicroak is a Pokemon designed to function well in rain teams. It takes no damage from Water-type attacks, has passive recovery under rain, and has access to two boosting moves, Swords Dance and Bulk Up, as well as good coverage options, allowing it to check or bust through many Pokemon that rain teams struggle against such as Ferrothorn, Chansey, Tentacruel, Keldeo, and Breloom. With a bulky set, it is also a useful check to one of the tier's most threatening Pokemon, Terrakion. However, other than its Attack, Toxicroak has poor stats and it relies a lot on rain to be useful. Depending on the set it runs, Toxicroak is also walled by common OU Pokemon such as Jellicent, Hippowdon, Gyarados, and Skarmory. At the end of the day, Toxicroak is an instrumental Pokemon for rain teams that helps them overcome some of their most common weaknesses, and even though it has some significant flaws, its positive traits make up for them with the right support.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Sucker Punch
    move 4: Ice Punch
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Dry Skin
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With unresisted neutral coverage and a good Attack stat, Toxicroak is very hard to wall after a boost. It's not difficult for Toxicroak to get an opportunity to use Swords Dance, as it can easily switch into many Pokemon that are problematic for rain teams, namely Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Tentacruel, and gain a free boost as they switch out. A notable advantage of Toxicroak over other sweepers is that it can't be worn down under rain (making Politoed a mandatory teammate) thanks to Dry Skin and Drain Punch, making it much more difficult to play around. Drain Punch gains STAB and allows Toxicroak to remain healthy even after taking severe damage, while packing serious power at +2 Attack. Sucker Punch compliments Drain Punch nicely, providing almost unresisted neutral coverage, good Base Power, and priority, preventing Toxicroak from getting revenge killed by faster threats, including Latios, Starmie, and Alakazam. Finally, Ice Punch covers the few threats that the other attacking moves don't, maiming Gliscor, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Dragonite, and Hippowdon.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The Speed EVs allow Toxicroak to outspeed Jolly Breloom, and the rest are thrown into Attack and HP. An Adamant nature is usually the better option, as both Toxicroak's Attack stat and the Base Power of its STAB move leaves something to be desired, and Sucker Punch helps against many faster Pokemon anyway. However, with a Jolly nature, Toxicroak outspeeds Jolly Mamoswine, Timid Heatran, and SubToxic Gliscor variants, all important targets that could otherwise OHKO Toxicroak. If you find Drain Punch's power lacking, Cross Chop is an option that allows Toxicroak to OHKO 252 HP Jirachi after a boost, preventing it from paralyzing Toxicroak; unfortunately, the lowered accuracy is a letdown.</p>

    <p>Toxicroak should always be used on rain teams, so Politoed is an obligatory teammate. Stealth Rock and Spikes support are useful for Toxicroak, as with them on the field it can secure the OHKO or 2HKO on various threats after a boost, including Haxorus, Choice Scarf Politoed, and Salamence with Sucker Punch; 252 HP Jirachi and Volcarona with Drain Punch; and Gyarados with Ice Punch. Ferrothorn is an excellent partner that can set up both entry hazards and switch into many Pokemon that Toxicroak struggles against such as Hippowdon, Gyarados, Garchomp, and Kyurem-B. Celebi also has good defensive synergy with Toxicroak, sets up Stealth Rock, and takes care of Hippowdon, Sheer Force Landorus, and Gyarados with a specially defensive set. Offensive Starmie and Choice Scarf Keldeo are able to outspeed and KO almost everything that checks or walls Toxicroak, creating a very potent offensive duo. Generally, Swords Dance Toxicroak thrives in rain offense teams that need a way to handle Keldeo, Terrakion, Chansey, Blissey, Tentacruel, Breloom, and Ferrothorn, all Pokemon that Toxicroak can set up against easily.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulk Up
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Drain Punch
    move 3: Ice Punch / Sucker Punch
    move 4: Substitute
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Dry Skin
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 244 HP / 132 Atk / 120 Def / 12 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With Bulk Up and significant HP and Defense investment, Toxicroak is able to become a formidable bulky sweeper. Being immune to Scald and Toxic is always nice for a physical sweeper that plans on staying in for a long time, and Toxicroak's resistances allow it to set up against a variety of Pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Tentacruel, and Conkeldurr. To top it off, Drain Punch and Dry Skin ensure that Toxicroak will almost always be in good shape. After a single boost, it is almost impossible to take down Toxicroak from the physical side, and most Pokemon that can&mdash;mainly Ground-types&mdash;are all afraid of Ice Punch. Drain Punch is Toxicroak's STAB and healing tool, while Ice Punch hits common switch-ins to Toxicroak for super effective damage, including Gliscor, Dragonite, Garchomp, and Landorus-T. Sucker Punch provides Toxicroak with almost unresisted neutral coverage, bar opposing Toxicroak, when combined with Drain Punch, and has priority, but it can leave Toxicroak struggling against Pokemon that don't care about Drain Punch and have non-attacking moves, namely Jellicent, Disable Gengar, and Perish Song Celebi. Substitute rounds off the set by giving Toxicroak a way to avoid status, revenge killers, and Leech Seed, and is almost penalty-free as Dry Skin and Leftovers heal Toxicroak for 18.5% of its health each turn.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The HP and Defense EVs prevent any Terrakion variant from 2HKOing Toxicroak after Stealth Rock in rain. 12 Speed EVs are used to outspeed defensive Rotom-W, allowing Toxicroak to set up a Substitute before it gets neutered by status, and the rest of the EVs are thrown into Attack. Swords Dance is an alternative to Bulk Up, to pose a more immediate threat, but the unboosted physical side of Toxicroak will allow many faster physical attackers to get past it. Payback is the only attacking move that can break through Jellicent, so it is a solid choice that still offers the excellent neutral coverage given by Sucker Punch.</p>

    <p>Rain is what makes this set last long enough to be dangerous, so Politoed should be used as a teammate. Because Hippowdon, Skarmory, Jellicent, Celebi with Psychic, and Reuniclus all counter Toxicroak, any Celebi variant pairs very well with it to cover its weaknesses to Ground- and Psychic-type moves. Nasty Plot Celebi can set up against Hippowdon, Jellicent, and Reuniclus and proceed to wreak havoc, while the specially defensive set with Perish Song beats all of the previously mentioned Pokemon bar Skarmory. Toxicroak also loves Toxic and Toxic Spikes support to get past many of the Pokemon that wall it, particularly Jellicent, Hippowdon, and Slowbro. Tentacruel is an excellent partner witch access to Toxic, Toxic Spikes, and Rapid Spin to support Toxicroak. Bulky Starmie with Toxic is a good lure for Jellicent and Slowbro, and is also able to clear the field of any entry hazards that Skarmory or Hippowdon may have set up against Toxicroak. As for more offensively minded partners, Choice Specs Gothitelle with a moveset of Psychic, Thunderbolt, Signal Beam, and Trick takes care of all of Toxicroak's counters; Jolteon, another potential teammate, outspeeds and OHKOes most Pokemon that trouble Toxicroak.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Sucker Punch / Payback
    move 4: Ice Punch
    item: Life Orb / Black Sludge
    ability: Dry Skin
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A middle road between the Swords Dance and Bulk Up sets, SubPunch Toxicroak has both immediate power and bulk. Substitute protects Toxicroak from status, lets it use Focus Punch safely, and works well with Dry Skin. Sucker Punch is useful priority and coverage against Starmie, Celebi, Alakazam, and many faster Pokemon in general, while also allowing Toxicroak to set up a Substitute against a foe and then kill it the next turn with Sucker Punch, keeping its Substitute intact. Payback is stronger than Sucker Punch against faster foes, and more reliable, but it doesn't have priority and is too weak against any Pokemon slower than Toxicroak. Ice Punch covers the Ground- and Flying-type Pokemon that prey on Toxicroak such as Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Dragonite.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>12 Speed EVs allow Toxicroak to outspeed defensive Rotom-W and set up a Substitute before it is afflicted with status. Attack is maximized, and the rest of the EVs go to HP. Life Orb gives Toxicroak some much needed power, while Leftovers improves its durability and its ability to PP stall with Substitute. Drain Punch can be used over any coverage move in order to have a reliable STAB move, just in case Toxicroak needs to attack with a STAB move without a Substitute.</p>

    <p>Politoed support is a requirement for this set to work. Celebi helps Toxicroak against most Ground- and Psychic-type Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Sheer Force Landorus, and Reuniclus. Scarf Thundurus-T and Jolteon beat Jellicent, Garchomp, Landorus-T, and many faster Pokemon that can OHKO Toxicroak. Finally, Terrakion is a fine partner and forms a dual Fighting-type core with Toxicroak, where each Pokemon weakens the other's counters.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Toxicroak has access to Nasty Plot and Vacuum Wave, allowing it to use a special set to decent success, but Toxicroak's low Special Attack makes such a set have few merits outside of the surprise factor. Work Up is another option, if only for hitting with both physical and special priority, but it is a gimmick at best; Swords Dance is better for wallbreaking anyway. Toxicroak can take advantage of its second STAB by using Poison Jab, to hit Pokemon such as Celebi, Gyarados, and Volcarona for better damage than with any other move, but it leaves Toxicroak helpless against the numerous Ground-types that are found in OU. Although situational, Toxic can cripple quite a few of Toxicroak's checks and counters, namely Jellicent, Slowbro, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon, making it a decent option.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Physically defensive Hippowdon, RestTalk Gyarados, Jellicent, and Sableye are the best counters to any Toxicroak set. Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, Intimidate Salamence, and Substitute + Calm Mind Jirachi are some of the best checks to Swords Dance Toxicroak, as they can switch into most of its moves, survive even a +2 Sucker Punch, and OHKO back. The Bulk Up set is less prone to revenge killing and more prone to getting walled, as it is very weak without a couple of boosts under its belt. For this reason, physically defensive Skarmory, Reuniclus, Slowbro, and Volcarona are good counters to that set. As for revenge killing, any Pokemon that outspeeds Toxicroak, can live a +2 Sucker Punch, and OHKO Toxicroak in return works; Pokemon that fit this criteria include Kyurem-B, Landorus, and Choice Band Scizor. Finally, sun teams are troubling for Toxicroak as they take away its passive recovery and make it lose HP each turn, reducing its lifespan.</p>
  2. sora13

    sora13

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    523
    I really would advise taking out Ice punch from Bulk up toxicroak, since in my experiences Sucker Punch is a necessity because otherwise you would get killed by Lati twins(kind of Ironic), Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, etc. Sure it's useful for gliscor, but If you dont take out gliscor before attempting to sweep with tcroak then you're doing tsomething wrong(kind of funny since I've outstalled quite a few gliscor before with the rain up).
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    BU Toxicroak should almost always set-up a sub when he has the opportunity. This means that when all those pokes come in you will have a sub up. After SR, Torn-T needs only two LO rounds to die from Ice Punch, so just use Sub twice. Thund-T takes 64% min, meaning that you can either stall with Sub for LO recoil, or hit it with Ice Punch and switch out safely, as it will be choiced. Against Latios you either get to scout its choice locked move, deal to it 56% damage min, and then switch out to a resist, start stacking LO recoil on it until you find the right time to attack, or just scout for the EB set when switching into something else. Finally against Latias Toxciroak doesn't need to hit first anyway, as it can comfortably survive two Dragon Pulses, but it should switch out regardless because you don't want to play dangerous games against CM Latias, as many carry Sub or Roar, and they utterly wreck you after setting up.

    Ice Punch is not only for Gliscor. It is for Lando-T, Dragonite, Salamence, Jellicent (yeah it 3-4HKOes at +6, which you can do if you manage to freeze it, which is very possible to happen), Garchomp, weakened Hippo, and other pokes i may be forgetting. And why do you think that taking out Gliscor shouldn't be left to Toxicroak anyway? He can easily 2HKO Gliscor at +1, while never getting 2HKOed back, so why not do it? Especially when considering that Gliscor is one of the most sturdy pokes around, and quite difficult to get rid of.
  4. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,292
    I'm personally not a fan of Bulk Up Toxicroak. Maybe it's just me, but every time I've tried Bulk Up Toxicroak it's been horrifically underwhelming and doesn't get anywhere. With bullshitly powerful stuff running around these days, Toxicroak just isn't bulky enough to get anywhere with Bulk Up. I'm not sure what to do with it, so I'll let the other QC members decide on this.

    On the SD set, I'd suggest a couple of things. Firstly, Drain Punch should be either a slash or the main slash. It's strong enough to kill most things you'll be wanting to kill with it with the added bonus of getting your health back (against Ferrothorn is generally what goes on, you get Gyro Balled for like 70% as you SD, and then you get most of that back by OHKOing the Ferrothorn with Drain Punch). It's just more reliable, and frankly, most of the things that Toxicroak can't kill with Drain Punch, you'd be hard pressed to beat with Cross Chop anyway. Secondly, SD Toxicroak needs a Jolly nature. Personally, I've found Jolly to be way more useful, since Gliscor doesn't generally run Jolly, most Landorus-T's don't run Jolly (if they're running Scarf you're dead anyway), and outspeeding all Heatrans and Mamoswines are also a great bonus.
  5. sora13

    sora13

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    523
    Before I post I would just like to say there is no malicious or disrespectful intent in my posts and I just want to debate Ice Punch's usefulness on the BU set. :)

    I definitely agree that you should always set-up a sub with toxicroak ASAP, so no conflicts there. I will also admit that Ice Punch has merits for being able to kill the lati-twins without them attacking(this is pretty risky though), Lando-T, and Hippowdon.

    However for the rest of the threats you mentioned, I feel sucker punch is more useful overall, and therefore I suggest making sucker punch first slash. My reasons are as follows:

    Both Torn-T and Thundurus-T die to two sucker punches after Stealth Rock, and even if they switch on the second one they take stealth rock damage(possibly LO as well) and even with regenerator torn-t cannot relaibly switch in multiple subs without it losing most of it's health to sr and sucker punch, while toxicroak doesn't really care with all the recovery it's getting from dry skin and lefties. More improtantly, with +2 toxicroak flat out OHKOes both of them as well as Salamence(doing hefty chunks to more offensive Dragonites) after SR. It's really handy to not be stopped by say something like Specs Jolteon Thunder, or CB Victini's V-create, etc. Ice Punch can take out Gliscor, sure, but if you really want to take out him that badly I feel that going with the SD set is a much better choice for taking out Gliscor.

    On a side note, I feel it would be a good idea to mention that Toxicroak. is able to check a lot of rain's nightmares like opposing Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, etc and that if it is a BU set it can even use some of these pokes are set-up fodder.
  6. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,780
    If anything I'd say Ice Punch is a necessity on BU Toxicroak. Otherwise croak is completely walled by a bunch of things that are tricky to remove, and therefore entirely useless in a large proportion of matches. However, I would have to agree after testing a little that Bulk Up is pretty bad. The defensive boosts are just not very useful.

    I would like to see SubPunch reconsidered instead. It's kind of like bulk up toxicroak, but with far superior initial power and coverage. I'm not sure which item and spread to use though; Life Orb or lefties and a max HP spread would probably be best.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    @sora 13

    It's ok, we are all just discussing! Anyway i know the merits of Sucker Punch, as i have used BU Toxicroak quite a lot, but the benefits of Ice Punch are too big too ignore. Both are slashed in the same slot so i think it is fine this way. And i have already mentioned that BU Toxicroak serves as a good switch-in to most of the threats you mentioned.

    @shrang

    Slashed Drain Punch with Cross Chop. I want to see more opinions about what the nature on the SD set should be... And Lando-T either runs zero Speed on the bulky set, or Scarf, outrunning you anyway. However outrunning Gliscor, Mamoswine, and Heatran is awesome, so i think i agree with you. I just want a little more input on this one as i am not so familiar with SD Toxciroak.

    @jc104

    I agree that the BU set was underwhelming, but it still has some merit, as it can serve as a decent counter to dangerous threats such as Terrakion and Keldeo (its main use really). From the oinions i got so far on irc it seems it would be better to keep it, but with good reasoning it can be removed. For now it stays though.

    Adding the SubPunch set.
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,920
    Bulk Up Toxicroak needs Payback slashed in, lets it not be completely useless vs. Jellicent.

    On SDCroak, a better EV spread is 24 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 232 Spd. This lets it still outspeed Adamant Mamoswine, Adamant Dragonite, and most importantly, Jolly Breloom, while giving it a bit more bulk and forcing Genesect to take an Atk boost, meaning even Modest max SAtk LO Thunder won't OHKO you.

    I question the viability of the SubPunch set, I've never found it to be very good, but eh. Good analysis.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    Ok Lavos made all your changes, and i also included Jolly in the main set of the SD variant. I saw SubPunch in action and i must say it was very good, probably even better than BU. For this reason i am thinking of maybe putting it before the BU set, which is mediocre. I was also thinking of mentioning the use of dual STABs in either the main set or in the AC of the SubPunch set, meaning Focus Punch and Drain Punch. The reason for this is that without Drain Punch SubPunch Toxicroak is helpless against SD Terrakion if Terra uses SD as you switch in, and fares worse against CM Keldeo. Generally Drain Punch provides Toxicroak with a reliable STAB move to use when it can't setup a sub. Thoughts?
  10. sora13

    sora13

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    523
    Personally, kind of in the same vein as toxic orb SD gliscor I think you should try to advertise BU toxicroak as an utility check/wall that can come in repeatedly against some of rain's worries (ferrothorn, keldeo, breloom, tentacreul) over setting up and steamrollign the other team. I found this mindset to be much more beneficial over a sweeper mindset because we know that toxicroak can take a little bit too much time to come to his sweeping potential than the other sets, however, the other sets simply cannot come in as repeatedly as well as BU toxicroak can.
  11. Corumba

    Corumba

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2012
    Messages:
    13
    Ok, first post lets go.

    Having extensively used Toxicroak in both BW1 and BW2 I have found the subpunch set to be its most effective.

    The advantages of running subpunch is the sheer amount of damage it can do with very little setup. Toxicroak in rain is by far the best subpuncher in the game, and in conjunction with black sludge/leftovers you end up gaining more hp in two turns than you lost from making the sub in the first place.

    In the current metagame, Toxicroak can switch in and counter all variants of of terrakion and keldeo bar banded terrakion, set up the slower substitute and proceed to focus punch something in the face. Against more offensive teams this pretty much guarantees a kill every time the opponents terrakion switches in.

    The set I have run is:

    [​IMG]
    Toxicroak @black sludge
    Adamant / Dry Skin
    252 hp/ 252 attack/ 6spdef
    Focus Punch
    Substitute
    Ice Punch
    Sucker Punch

    This ev spread allows you the ability to take an Adamant Scizor's banded BP with more than 25% hp, allowing you to set up a sub and focus punch something. This is something I have abused on multiple occasions.

    This set is also not countered by skarmory unlike the bulk up set, as focus punch will deal 40% to fully defensive skarmory. If Skarmory switches in it will be forced to whirlwind you away or be ohkoed by Focus Punch if it roosts, this guarantees at least 80% on skarmory making it easily picked off by anything that is whirlwinded in.

    Gliscor is also unable to switch into croak behind a sub as the standard 252 hp/ 184 def set is easily 2hkoed by Ice punch whilst being unable to ohko Toxicroak in return. Ferrothorn can be sub stalled out of gyro balls from full hp and dealt with by focus punch.

    The slow Substitute can also be very useful. Any quicker targets that can be picked off with suckerpunch can be subbed on and finished off with Suckerpunch allowing you to keep a sub up to cause heavy damage to something later. All the while you are gaining more health with dry skin and black sludge.

    Toxic Spikes support can be very useful for allowing you the ability to stall out defensive walls such as Jellicent and Slowbro- both of which are hard counters to subpunch croak.

    In summary, I am a massive fan of Subpunch croak and think it definitely deserves an analysis.
  12. DrunkDemon

    DrunkDemon

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    Small change, for the SD set you should remove the 4 SpD EVs. They put you 2 over the max to begin with, and the attack boost to Genesect isn't an issue anymore.
  13. Frog

    Frog

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    94
    EVs Please:
    244/40 allows to not be 2HKOed by glsicor after 1 bulk up in rain
    108 Attack allows for +1 sucker punch to OHKO latios after rocks
    12 speed beats rotom-w. This one is a neccesity.
    224 Attack allows +2 life orb boosted drain punch to always OHKO 248/0 rotom-w after rocks
    216 speed on subpunch for dragonite, *might* want to outspeed that guy

    My Ideal EV spreads:
    Swords Dance:
    48 HP/224 Attack/20 Def/216 Speed
    Bulk Up:
    244 HP/108 Attack/40 Def/104 SpD/12 Spe
    SubPunch:
    88 HP/204 Atk/216 Spe

    Im kind of a EV nerd lol.
    252 is EVIL.
  14. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,549
    "Sucker Punch is useful priority and coverage against Starmie, Celebi, and Gengar while also allowing Toxicroak to set-up a Sub against a foe, and then kill it next turn with Sucker Punch, getting a free sub"

    You should probably take Gengar off that list. Also, there could be some emphasis on the fact Gengar not only counters Toxicroak, but can come out of the counter with 100% health if you stay in or behind a free sub if you switch out. Too many people bring in Toxicroak with a healthy Gengar on the other team...
  15. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
    is a Tutoris a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,051
    With Ice Punch and Sucker Punch Gengar is a non-issue for the Swords Dance set. As Gengar presumably switches in on the predicted Sucker Punch, you then Ice Punch. Assuming Gengar is the Disable set, it's 50/50 whether you Sucker Punch predicting a Disable or Ice Punch predicted a Sub again.

    It's a 50/50 win/lose scenario, definitely not a counter imo.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    ^Exactly! I think this is ready for approvals now...
  17. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,742
    Looks good

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  18. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,153
    Move Cross Chop to AC imo, does it even do anything for Toxicroak?

    EDIT: alright you convinced me, carry on

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    It does a few things; it allows Toxicroak to OHKO Defensive Toed after SR at +2, meaning that Toed can't try anything funny such as using Encore, OHKO Skarmory at +2 (Skarmory will die if it tries to OHKO Toxciroak with BB) after SR, OHKO SpD Jirachi after SR before it can paralyze you, and OHKO Vaporeon after SR + Spikes before it can phaze you. But yeah i agree it should go to AC as the accuracy is bad and the lack of healing sucks.

    Thx for the approvals guys!
  20. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,580
    [Overview]

    ~ More emphasis on its amazing ability, which is probably the main reason why people even use it in the first place (its unique typing is secondary). Water immunity and 12.5% recovery in the rain is some good stuff

    ~ Ascribe the introduction of Keldeo to provide Toxicroak a niche as a good offensive check to it.

    [Swords Dance]

    ~ Expand upon your paralysis / hazard support. Any mon would appreciate hazard support. What KOs does it achieve with hazard support? Any particular Hazard setter that pairs well with Toxicroak (ie does more to support Toxicroak other than setting up hazards).

    ~ Need a teammate section - what sort of team would SD Toxicroak best fit?

    [Bulk Up]

    ~ Explain the EV spread. What do the Attack EVs or defensive EVs accomplish?

    ~ Add Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Dragonite as a counter to this set (especially if Toxicroak lacks Ice Punch), and offer teammates. The Grass-types you mentioned certainly wont cut it.

    ~ AC mention Payback so it can beat Jellicent

    ~ I'd think Toxic support would be a lot more lethal than paralysis, allowing Toxicroak to stall out the likes of Jellicent, Slowbro, etc with it.

    [Other Options]

    ~ Mention that Toxic can cripple quite a few of Toxicroak's counters, namely Jellicent, Slowbro, and Landorus-T; useless against Gliscor, though

    [Checks and Counters]

    ~ Sun Teams

    ~ Bulky Gyarados with Intimidate (can be DD or support)

    ~ Volcarona

    ~ Scizor and its Bullet Punch

    ~ SubCM Jirachi

    ~ Slowbro

    ~ Sub / Sunny Day Chandelure

    ~ Sableye
  21. Shokwav

    Shokwav

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    203
    Might want to note that you have have 512 EVs on the SD set. I think you meant 26/252/232.
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    Added everything! Btw Pocket i already mentioned what is the purpose of the EV spread of the BU set (to avoid the 2HKO from any Terrakion under rain after SR).
  23. dice

    dice RAP GAME GiTTARACKUR
    is a Tutoris a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,051
    this looks legit and it got ignored ;o
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,676
    I didn't address it 'cause it doesn't show anything important. Let's see:

    The BU set has more bulk meaning that Gliscor isn't a concern
    The BU set has more power meaning that you still get the OHKO on Latios
    This is called speed creep
    The SD set has more power bla bla bla
    Not possible as SubPunch Croak wants the bulk

    As for the set EV spreads the guy didn't even say what they are useful for except from the EV'd stat that he has already explained. For example why does the SD set some arbitrary EVs thrown on Defense? And why is Attack not maxed?
  25. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,292
    I guess you could consider running 12 Speed EVs to outrun minimum speed Rotom-W, which is acceptable. It really doesn't matter though.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)