Awesome my favourate type of team in duh house =}.Well by the looks of things this generation will most probably be filled with heavy offense like mentioned in the OP so Trick room might actually work pretty well this gen.Im kind of sad we still dont have a trick room item =L....Cmon weathers got boost why dont gravity/Trick room and stuff get something? No fair >__>.Too bad there wasn't much new TR inducers this gen though but in terms of sweepers it seems pretty good.
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Trick Room in the 5th Generation
- Thread starter Lee
- Start date
Mention whatever you want. How do you figure it's a +4 boost though? I was under the impression Sand Strength was a 30% boost to Rock, Ground and Steel attacks. You're also handcuffing yourself into using Tyranitar in order to provide the Sandstorm. Even then I think, in the role of Sandstorm Trick Room sweeper, that Gigaisu is a more attractive prospect thanks mainly to much higher Atk and SpD, much lower speed and Explosion.Breludicolo said:
@ deluge. Yeah, I love offensive Trick Room Slowking; I linked to it in the op. I used to use Slack Off in the last slot so that he could survive a bit longer and Surf is pretty good as far as mono-attacks go but your way works just as well.
Y'know, I'm very excited to test Erufuun on a Trick Room team. I realise that Trick Room does not gain positive priority from Mischevious Heart but he still brings some really interesting attributes to a TR team.-Life- said:
Erufuun @ Leftovers
Impish
Mischevious Heart
252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
- Taunt
- Encore
- Trick Room
- U-turn / Stun Spore / Charm / Memento
In a match-up of heavy offense vs Trick Room, the heavy offense player should be looking to stall out the TR turns and then attempt to set up a sweep once the dimensions return to normal. Erufuun is excellent at preventing this tactic with it's already legendary Encore. It sounds very fun to switch in on Salamence as he tries to Dragon Dance, Encore it, Trick Room the switch and then start the carnage all over again. He's also almost impossible to Taunt thanks to his own Mischevious Heart Taunt meaning he isn't completely thwarted by Taunt like some other Trick Room users.
Last slot is semi-filler. U-turn for scouting and getting your TR sweeper in. Stun Spore, Charm and Memento are emergency moves against a sweeper (Stun Spore kinda conflicts with the Trick Room theme but it's better than being swept).
He really seems to patch up a lot of the problems that 4th Gen Trick Room teams had.
Damn fine right up, Lee.
I always loved TR because I loved a fast paced team. And with the amount of Weather orientated abilities as well as the countless amount of Pokémon that benefit heavily off Weather support but are too slow to make proper use of it will love TR. And I can see TR and Weather mixing quite effectively this Gen, and not just in Doubles + Triples. I always attempted a Sunny Trick Room team in NU and it worked fantastically if given the opportunity. I am psyched to try that in this Gen as well with the addition of newly arrived Solar Power users; Sunflora is still a classic. Sandstorm + Trick Room is still a favourite of mine, especially in the lower tiers.
In lead form I'd opt for Espeon > All.
Espeon @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 HP/4 SpDef/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Ability: Magic Mirror
~ Trick Room
~ Protect
~ Baton Pass
~ Yawn
Being immune to Taunt is too juicy not to use.
But a Suicide Lead Rank would be my second choice. Mushaana would also be good as a consistent reliable Trick Room starter with its 116 / 85 / 95 defense spread. And could double up as a TR sweeper with CM.
I always loved TR because I loved a fast paced team. And with the amount of Weather orientated abilities as well as the countless amount of Pokémon that benefit heavily off Weather support but are too slow to make proper use of it will love TR. And I can see TR and Weather mixing quite effectively this Gen, and not just in Doubles + Triples. I always attempted a Sunny Trick Room team in NU and it worked fantastically if given the opportunity. I am psyched to try that in this Gen as well with the addition of newly arrived Solar Power users; Sunflora is still a classic. Sandstorm + Trick Room is still a favourite of mine, especially in the lower tiers.
In lead form I'd opt for Espeon > All.
Espeon @ Focus Sash
EVs: 252 HP/4 SpDef/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Ability: Magic Mirror
~ Trick Room
~ Protect
~ Baton Pass
~ Yawn
Being immune to Taunt is too juicy not to use.
But a Suicide Lead Rank would be my second choice. Mushaana would also be good as a consistent reliable Trick Room starter with its 116 / 85 / 95 defense spread. And could double up as a TR sweeper with CM.
Octillery @ Choice Specs
EVs: 252 Sat/252 Htp/6 Def
Nature: Quiet
Ability: Sniper (Maybe Unpredictable if you feel lucky.. punk.)
- Water Spout
- Flamethrower (If it isn't a rain dance team)/Energy Ball
- Ice Beam/Energy Ball
- Charge Beam/Energy Ball
Water Spout will lay some law down. Minimum 45 (not base, total) speed means nearly nothing is going to be outspeeding it, and Octillery does at least resist Bullet Punch.
I'm just not convinced Espeon has the bulk to set up Trick Room and then Baton Pass as you're relying on him to survive 2 consecutive attacks. Maybe a spread of 252 HP / 252 SpD Sassy and Wish over Baton Pass? 334 HP / 317 SpD is actually pretty darn bulky...Timid Heatran's Fire Blast is only a 3HKO for example.
I definitely wouldn't use it as a lead either because then you lose the ability to surprise an opponent later on by coming into their Sleep Powder, Stealth Rock etc. Although if the whole 'see the opponent's team before the battle' thing goes ahead then that point is probably moot anyway.
It all depends on whether Magic Mirror brings enough to your team to justify his use because, generally speaking, if I was allowing myself to use a frail-ish Trick Room user I'd probably go with Erufuun instead as I feel he brings a little more to the team.
Creative idea though, I like it.
I definitely wouldn't use it as a lead either because then you lose the ability to surprise an opponent later on by coming into their Sleep Powder, Stealth Rock etc. Although if the whole 'see the opponent's team before the battle' thing goes ahead then that point is probably moot anyway.
It all depends on whether Magic Mirror brings enough to your team to justify his use because, generally speaking, if I was allowing myself to use a frail-ish Trick Room user I'd probably go with Erufuun instead as I feel he brings a little more to the team.
Creative idea though, I like it.
I tried trick room out for a bit before BW came out. My format was 4 trick room users plus two sweepers. Having many trick room users that could also do a decent amount of damage seemed pretty useful, as I wouldn't always need to waste a turn of trick room to switch to a sweeper.
The lead user was a psuedo-suicide Gallade@Focus Sash lead. It was kind of gimicky because Gallade's not the slowest pokemon, but the goal with it was to use a lead that my foe wouldn't immediately think "I should taunt this" so that I could get trick room up first turn, and then if they did a significant amount of damage the first turn I would Destiny Bond the second turn. It turned out that Gallade often survived the first hit, though, and was able to do some damage, so having a 4th trick room user was nice.
The rest of the team was porygon2, dusknoir, bronzong and then the two sweepers which were usually heatran for special and machamp for physical. I was also considering testing a mixed slow sweeper + a fast pokemon that didn't need trick room, in case I was forced into a situation where I couldn't get trick room back up. Porygon2 and Bronzong were able to consistently set up trick room and do damage. Dusknoir could do this to a lesser extent.
If I were to try out trick room this gen, I would probably test out a similar format or 3 or 4 trick roomers that could do decent damage + sweepers. Porygon2, Bronzong and Dusknoir/Dusclops would probably still be pretty good choices. Desukan looks like it could be a pretty useful trick room special attacker, same with Burunkeru except bulkier and less strong attack wise. Though it probably wouldn't be doing much damage, I would probably also test out Erfun for status spreading/leech seeding.
The main problem with this format is that most trick room users are weak to dark types, so Porygon2 is essentially a must, but it gets a nice boost with the prevolution stone, making it even more useful. Exeggutor with the dw nature plus the dark resisting berry might also be useful for overcoming this problem and having a strong TR attacker, though it might miss the resto-chesto insta-heal.
Another slight problem is that this sort of format leaves no room for a rapid spinner, so it's preferable that your pokemon aren't taking massive damage from entry hazards. The format somewhat alleviates this problem, as you won't always need to switch when you get trick room up, but one of the ways I often lost was that my foe got up toxic spikes and when trick room faded my pokemon were at too low health to set it back up again before getting KOed.
The lead user was a psuedo-suicide Gallade@Focus Sash lead. It was kind of gimicky because Gallade's not the slowest pokemon, but the goal with it was to use a lead that my foe wouldn't immediately think "I should taunt this" so that I could get trick room up first turn, and then if they did a significant amount of damage the first turn I would Destiny Bond the second turn. It turned out that Gallade often survived the first hit, though, and was able to do some damage, so having a 4th trick room user was nice.
The rest of the team was porygon2, dusknoir, bronzong and then the two sweepers which were usually heatran for special and machamp for physical. I was also considering testing a mixed slow sweeper + a fast pokemon that didn't need trick room, in case I was forced into a situation where I couldn't get trick room back up. Porygon2 and Bronzong were able to consistently set up trick room and do damage. Dusknoir could do this to a lesser extent.
If I were to try out trick room this gen, I would probably test out a similar format or 3 or 4 trick roomers that could do decent damage + sweepers. Porygon2, Bronzong and Dusknoir/Dusclops would probably still be pretty good choices. Desukan looks like it could be a pretty useful trick room special attacker, same with Burunkeru except bulkier and less strong attack wise. Though it probably wouldn't be doing much damage, I would probably also test out Erfun for status spreading/leech seeding.
The main problem with this format is that most trick room users are weak to dark types, so Porygon2 is essentially a must, but it gets a nice boost with the prevolution stone, making it even more useful. Exeggutor with the dw nature plus the dark resisting berry might also be useful for overcoming this problem and having a strong TR attacker, though it might miss the resto-chesto insta-heal.
Another slight problem is that this sort of format leaves no room for a rapid spinner, so it's preferable that your pokemon aren't taking massive damage from entry hazards. The format somewhat alleviates this problem, as you won't always need to switch when you get trick room up, but one of the ways I often lost was that my foe got up toxic spikes and when trick room faded my pokemon were at too low health to set it back up again before getting KOed.
Why thank you :D. Although, now that I think about it, Mew would work much better than Uxie with that base 100 speed if the no-banlist movement goes through.
Trick Room vs Stall matchups are indeed quite interesting, and I can tell you from experience that Stall definitely has the upper hand because of TR's 5-turn window and its slow members like Blissey. Which, like you suggested here, is why I took to using a boosting sweeper on my Trick Room teams (I think you can guess who it is). It's one hell of a sweeper and can beat a weakened Stall team easily if it's your last pokemon standing.
Technician
Brave 248/252/8/0/0/0
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Roost / U-Turn
Against offensive teams it's best to just boost once and start sweeping from there. Against Stall, however, just keep it in reserve, making sure to take out things that can threaten it or burn it (although this wouldn't bother it too much since it's goal is to max out), boost up to +6 and sweep. Roost prevents things like Forretress and Flamethrower-less Blissey from whittling you down while you're boosting and heals off LO recoil. U-Turn can be used over Roost if you want to trade off some staying power for a 5th turn switch (which is oh-so useful).
Another set I'd like to contribute is one of my favorites: TR Gallade.
Steadfast
Brave 4/252/252/0/0/0
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Taunt
- Trick Room
Finally, a reason to use Gallade over Lucario. Gallade is an absolute monster under Trick Room. Don't believe me? Well, here's something that might change your mind. Gallade's Close Combat is only slightly weaker than Ho-oh's Brave Bird, with better coverage. Add in Taunt to give settup opportunities agianst things like Restalkers and Blissey and you have yourself a winner.
Edit: Damn, I didn't know Erufuun learned Trick Room. I am so happy right now.
Double Edit: Just realized that RocketSurgery already mentioned Gallade. Now I'm sad.
Even though it has that unsettling mid-level speed, I still really like Shandera on a trick room team. Especially if shadow tag Shandera doesn't get banned. I've played with trick room teams plenty of times before, and although they're rather gimmicky, they are extremely powerful when everything goes according to plan. One thing I quickly learned was that the traditional "bulky set-upper" -> switch -> "bulky sweeper" strategy isn't always viable. There are simply too many things that can go wrong during that pivot point, and there are too many ways to easily stall out the already low number of turns that you have to abuse trick room. This is why I like to make everything on my trick room teams capable of hitting hard during the trick room turns. If they happen to get knocked out in the process, so what? At least they caused some damage and still allowed a free switch in to a more dedicated sweeper. This might be a scenario where it's actually better to play two roles and be mediocre at both than to be exceptional at just one role.
shadow tag (or flash fire if need be) @ life orb
quiet - 252 hp, 252 spatk, 4 def/spdef (and 0 speed IVs)
- fire blast
- shadow ball
- hidden power (fighting)/energy ball
- trick room
With max special attack and a life orb, this thing is unfathomably powerful. And although you might have qualms about its speed, I'd recommend you go take a look at the RMT sub-forum, then tell me how many things are going to go before this guy in trick room. The answer is not too many. Hell, even some stall teams fail to outslow min-speed Shandera. For those that are slower, you could either take the hit with your now passable bulk, or just switch out to a sweeper as you would usually do. Pursuit users are typically a bit faster than you, so you can still just fire away on them before they can hit you - or again, you can take the 40 BP pursuit and retaliate with an attack. For instances when you don't have anything in your way, you don't even have to worry about switching out, since you're not going to find a more powerful special attacker than Shandera (without going into uber territory, anyway). You also get four attacking turns to abuse TR, rather than the three that other sweepers would have. Shadow tag is just the icing on the cake, allowing you to pick and choose what you set up on.
And if you do want to go the traditional "dedicated set-up" route, you may want to take a look at Xatu. Like Espeon, it also gets the incredible, near broken magic mirror ability from the dream world. This means it can set up trick room without worrying about being taunted or encored, and it can also be a perfect switch-in to status attacks that would otherwise cripple your sweepers. What separates it from Esepon are its slightly lower speed, its ground immunity, its instant recovery in the form of roost, its ability to use a fixed-damage attack in night shade, and its ability to u-turn.
magic mirror @ leftovers/macho brace
relaxed/sassy - 252 hp, mixed defense and special defense (0 speed IVs)
- night shade/reflect/light screen
- u-turn
- roost
- trick room
Xatu's defenses may not be great, but against Pokemon that rely on status and set-up moves, Xatu is practically untouchable. Night shade can wear down everything except normal types, u-turn lets you chip away at your opponents before you bring in a sweeper, and roost lets you recover health and rid yourself of ice/electric/rock weaknesses. Leftovers helps you stay around longer, though if you're worried about being too fast for trick room, you can just slap a macho brace on Xatu to fix the problem. This makes a good lead for trick room teams, but may even be more effective to keep in a non-lead spot so you can switch it in on entry hazard set-up. You not only keep your own team safe from residual damage, but you provide your own set of hazards to help your sweepers succeed. It's also worth noting that Xatu makes a nearly perfect counter to Hippowdon, who can cause a lot of problems to trick room teams with its low speed and great defenses. If the Hippo is running a supportive SR/EQ/roar/slack off set, then he can't do anything to you.
shadow tag (or flash fire if need be) @ life orb
quiet - 252 hp, 252 spatk, 4 def/spdef (and 0 speed IVs)
- fire blast
- shadow ball
- hidden power (fighting)/energy ball
- trick room
With max special attack and a life orb, this thing is unfathomably powerful. And although you might have qualms about its speed, I'd recommend you go take a look at the RMT sub-forum, then tell me how many things are going to go before this guy in trick room. The answer is not too many. Hell, even some stall teams fail to outslow min-speed Shandera. For those that are slower, you could either take the hit with your now passable bulk, or just switch out to a sweeper as you would usually do. Pursuit users are typically a bit faster than you, so you can still just fire away on them before they can hit you - or again, you can take the 40 BP pursuit and retaliate with an attack. For instances when you don't have anything in your way, you don't even have to worry about switching out, since you're not going to find a more powerful special attacker than Shandera (without going into uber territory, anyway). You also get four attacking turns to abuse TR, rather than the three that other sweepers would have. Shadow tag is just the icing on the cake, allowing you to pick and choose what you set up on.
And if you do want to go the traditional "dedicated set-up" route, you may want to take a look at Xatu. Like Espeon, it also gets the incredible, near broken magic mirror ability from the dream world. This means it can set up trick room without worrying about being taunted or encored, and it can also be a perfect switch-in to status attacks that would otherwise cripple your sweepers. What separates it from Esepon are its slightly lower speed, its ground immunity, its instant recovery in the form of roost, its ability to use a fixed-damage attack in night shade, and its ability to u-turn.
magic mirror @ leftovers/macho brace
relaxed/sassy - 252 hp, mixed defense and special defense (0 speed IVs)
- night shade/reflect/light screen
- u-turn
- roost
- trick room
Xatu's defenses may not be great, but against Pokemon that rely on status and set-up moves, Xatu is practically untouchable. Night shade can wear down everything except normal types, u-turn lets you chip away at your opponents before you bring in a sweeper, and roost lets you recover health and rid yourself of ice/electric/rock weaknesses. Leftovers helps you stay around longer, though if you're worried about being too fast for trick room, you can just slap a macho brace on Xatu to fix the problem. This makes a good lead for trick room teams, but may even be more effective to keep in a non-lead spot so you can switch it in on entry hazard set-up. You not only keep your own team safe from residual damage, but you provide your own set of hazards to help your sweepers succeed. It's also worth noting that Xatu makes a nearly perfect counter to Hippowdon, who can cause a lot of problems to trick room teams with its low speed and great defenses. If the Hippo is running a supportive SR/EQ/roar/slack off set, then he can't do anything to you.
soul_survivor
VGCPL Champion
believe it or not i use tyranitar on my trick room team.
ability: sand stream
nature: brave
item: leftovers
ev's 252 hp, 252 atk, 4 def
crunch
Eq
stone edge
pursuit-curse-fire punch ( i use pursuit)
With tyranitars amazing bulk and so many trainers ev'ing in speed tyranitar can be fast without the need of dragon dance or choice scarf.
ability: sand stream
nature: brave
item: leftovers
ev's 252 hp, 252 atk, 4 def
crunch
Eq
stone edge
pursuit-curse-fire punch ( i use pursuit)
With tyranitars amazing bulk and so many trainers ev'ing in speed tyranitar can be fast without the need of dragon dance or choice scarf.
right now my team is demolishing online.
lead-gigiasu
Trick Roomers-rankurusu w/magic guard and slowbro w/ regeneration
Sweepers- Choice band kurimugan and reckless enbuoo
Revenge- Choice scarf sazandora
lead-gigiasu
Trick Roomers-rankurusu w/magic guard and slowbro w/ regeneration
Sweepers- Choice band kurimugan and reckless enbuoo
Revenge- Choice scarf sazandora
I like the Scizor idea...he can be a real nuisance against offensive teams even once Trick Room ends. You could even run a Brave Choice Band Scizor for the utility that he brings to the team as an offensive pivot as well as those priceless Dark and Bug resists (I think somebody mentioned earlier that most TR users are weak to either Dark or Bug). I'm probably just bias because I think Choice Band Scizor is the best thing since sliced bread but yeah...
Care to give some more insight? I'd be genuinelly interested to hear some playtesting notes.JustChilling said:
I personally don't really like choiced TR sweepers, simply because the opponent can just bring in a resist or immune and you've suddenly lost 2 turns and had your momentum thrown off. There are a few exceptions I like (example: CB Ononokusu), but they're almost all Dragons due to the power and coverage a banded STAB Outrage off 400+ attack gives, plus you're locked in anyway so you really don't have any momentum loss. I do like CB Aggron since Head Smash can 2HKO even some things that resist it, so it's a really great cleaner and wall-breaker. I figure I might try a CB Ononokusu/Dragonite + CB Aggron combo to plow through the opponent's Steel type and sweep from there, but I'm worried about that loss of momentum that's always a serious problem for a Trick Room team. Thoughts?
Pure theorymon but I'd be more inclined to use Kurimugan and Rampardos than Ononokusu and Aggron. Obviously Kuri is much slower than Ono. Kusu's min speed is somewhere around 170~ which is far too fast tbqh whereas Kuri is even slower than Slowbro. Kuri's 358/217/216 defenses are quite a bit better than Ono's 356/217/176. Ono has 147 Atk compared to Kuri's 120 but it seems to be worth the trade-off.
Regarding Rampardos vs Aggron, it was you yourself who said that '[TR sweepers]...are best when they can kill themselves within three turns due to recoil or Explosion.' Well, Rampardos can certainly do that with Head Smash and has a 471 Atk stat compared to Aggron's 350. Rampardos doesn't even need Choice Band to break through Steels...he can get the job done with Life Orb (that might make you die a little too quickly though so Hard Stone is an option).
LO Head Smash vs 252/252+ Skarmory = 70% - 83%
LO Head Smash vs 252/0 Metagross = 45% - 53%
LO Head Smash vs 252/60 Nattorei = 45% - 53%
LO Head Smash vs 252/0 Heatran = 103% - 121%
Regarding dealing with the loss of momentum I think Erufuun is essential for blocking the opponent's attempt to capitalise on TR ending...having a Garchomp come in and Swords Dance on your Rampardos could be catastrophic but Eru can just Encore it and set TR up again.
It's a very interesting team concept, let me know how it goes.
Regarding Rampardos vs Aggron, it was you yourself who said that '[TR sweepers]...are best when they can kill themselves within three turns due to recoil or Explosion.' Well, Rampardos can certainly do that with Head Smash and has a 471 Atk stat compared to Aggron's 350. Rampardos doesn't even need Choice Band to break through Steels...he can get the job done with Life Orb (that might make you die a little too quickly though so Hard Stone is an option).
LO Head Smash vs 252/252+ Skarmory = 70% - 83%
LO Head Smash vs 252/0 Metagross = 45% - 53%
LO Head Smash vs 252/60 Nattorei = 45% - 53%
LO Head Smash vs 252/0 Heatran = 103% - 121%
Regarding dealing with the loss of momentum I think Erufuun is essential for blocking the opponent's attempt to capitalise on TR ending...having a Garchomp come in and Swords Dance on your Rampardos could be catastrophic but Eru can just Encore it and set TR up again.
It's a very interesting team concept, let me know how it goes.
Thanks for those calcs. I'm pretty psyched about Rampardos now. To be honest he hadn't even crossed my mind. That kamikaze build is always appealing. He does have a severe weakness to priority though, but this probably wouldn't be a problem since the goal is to break the steel, and he generally only needs to do that once.
Anyways, I think I might end up going with CB Dragonite since Banded Extremespeeds are always useful, and Brave Dragonite just barely gets below min speed Tyranitar, which I think is a pretty good benchmark. At any rate it will be a while before I build the team, as I want to wait until Pokemon Lab is updated and we've got all of our 5th gen policies straightened out. (Because the prospect of using Dialga and Palkia as setters has me shivering with delight.)
Anyways, I think I might end up going with CB Dragonite since Banded Extremespeeds are always useful, and Brave Dragonite just barely gets below min speed Tyranitar, which I think is a pretty good benchmark. At any rate it will be a while before I build the team, as I want to wait until Pokemon Lab is updated and we've got all of our 5th gen policies straightened out. (Because the prospect of using Dialga and Palkia as setters has me shivering with delight.)
ya sorry about that didn't know if anyone wouold actually be interested :P
the gigiausu and kurimugan (sorry about spellings i am not looking at them right now) are from a video i saw on youtube.
gigiausu runs a set like this- stealth rock, stone edge, earthquake, and explosion (might get rid of that) with custap berry. very useful because it can take on most leads, and i don't really worry about stealth rock because it doesn't bother most of my team. the only problem i have is if SE misses, which blows lol.
Rankurusu is actually quite amazing. you'd be surprised at how bulky it can be with 252 HP EVs (424 HP). It usually comes after gigiasu, setting up trick room on the first turn. what is really great is everyone who has a tyranitar always switches it in. Once they do that, i blast it away with focus blast. Btw the moves i run are trick room, psycho shock (better than psychic) focus blast, and thunder (with life orb and magic guard and quiet nature). havent had any real use for thunder yet tho, but just in case i face against some rain dance teams.
If i don't go to rankurusu, i go to slowbro. I run a full defensive set with 252 HP, 252 Def, and relaxed nature with leftovers and regeneration. He is actually my one defensive trick roomer (rankurusu can actually peform sweeps). with regeneration, he is also very reliable to set up quite a few trick rooms.
Kurugiman with choice band is quite amazing once you know the other team. If he gets in with at least 3 turns of trick room left, then he is usually guranteed 2 KO's. Choice band outrage destroys lol and rough skin has actually been quite a useful ability for him. Physical attackers turn some 2HKO's in OHKOs. btw brave nature, 252 HP, 252 Attack moveset is outrage, earthquake (detroys sunny day teams), crunch, and fire fang (havent used either of the last 2 often).
Enbuoo is probably one of the greatest sweepers to have on a trick room team. i run a brave nature with expert belt and reckless, same Ev's as Kurugiman. moveset is flare blitz (destroys) hammer arm (also destroys) wild bolt (destroys bulky waters aka ghost jellyfish) and rock smash. truthfully i have not had a time where ive gotten him in, and anything he has hit was not OHKO'd. riduculous in trick room.
Last pokemon is sazandora with choice scarf, running modest nature and 252 speed and sp attack. moves are draco meteor, dark pulse, fire blast, and roar (used to be u-turn). roar is because one game i got swept by a stat upper, and if sazandora had roar she couldve easily stopped it. u-turn was useful tho to get rid of focus sash leads, (switch in sazandora if gigiasu dies.) mainly used to firing off draco meteors to finish everyone off once trick rooms dead.
Shubarugo is definitely a mixed bag in Trick Room. It can OHKO both Zuruzukin and Jirachi with Megahorn, which is definitely an achievement. The downside is that it seriously struggles against anything that resists Megahorn, because it has barely any other options. Pursuit is fun to use against a fleeing Scarf Shanderaa, though.
IMO kurimungan is outclassed by dragonite as a TR sweeper, i know dragonite isnt know for that but let me show you. This is the list of pokemon between min dragonite and min kurimungan, every pokemon have minimun investment and neutral speed
and i counted all ou pokes from 4th gen + slowbro and every pokemon from 5th (even bad pokemons like maggyo)
148 Dragonite
--------------
146 Blissey, Machamp, Goruggo, Baffuron
136 Tabunne, Shibirudon, Tsunbea
130 Hippowdom
126 Dusknoir, Roobushin
116 Forrestres, Nageki, Iwaparesu, Oobemu
102 Bronzong
100 Abagora, Maggyo
96 Slowbro, Snorlax, Desukan, Rankurusu, Morobareru
94 Mushaana
-----------------
90 Kurimungan
Only 23 pokemons, and some of them beat kurimungan 100% of the time even under TR:
-Machamp: CB outrage dont OHKO and im sure dynamic punch + BP OHKO (correct me if im wrong, too lazy to make calcs)
-Hippowndon: Slack off stall trick room turns and 2hko with EQ (outspeed after the TR)
-Dusknoir: WoW + Pain split stall
-Roobushin:Not ohko'ed by CB ourage and hammer arm 2hko and he will outspeed (under TR) after the speed drop
-Forrestres: Setup SR, spikes, toxic spikes and he can spin, he cant do much damage but i find this a win for forrestres
-Bronzong: Setup on you and after that use explosion
-Slowbro: Slack off stall and ko with ice beam
From the 23 now we have 16 pokemons and a couple of them are subpar option for a team, so the speed is not a issue for dragonite (also without taking incount dragonite beat a couple of them even being "slower"). Dragonite have better attack stat (134 vs 120), much better special attack (100 vs 60), better defenses (91/95/100 vs 77/90/90). Dragonite have the posibility of going mixed, something that kurimunga only wish, also dragonite have a much better movepool including a 2 priority move extreme speed and aqua jet (extrem speed is superior thought) something that every TR sweeper apreciate.
tl;dr Dragonite > Kurimungan
and i counted all ou pokes from 4th gen + slowbro and every pokemon from 5th (even bad pokemons like maggyo)
148 Dragonite
--------------
146 Blissey, Machamp, Goruggo, Baffuron
136 Tabunne, Shibirudon, Tsunbea
130 Hippowdom
126 Dusknoir, Roobushin
116 Forrestres, Nageki, Iwaparesu, Oobemu
102 Bronzong
100 Abagora, Maggyo
96 Slowbro, Snorlax, Desukan, Rankurusu, Morobareru
94 Mushaana
-----------------
90 Kurimungan
Only 23 pokemons, and some of them beat kurimungan 100% of the time even under TR:
-Machamp: CB outrage dont OHKO and im sure dynamic punch + BP OHKO (correct me if im wrong, too lazy to make calcs)
-Hippowndon: Slack off stall trick room turns and 2hko with EQ (outspeed after the TR)
-Dusknoir: WoW + Pain split stall
-Roobushin:Not ohko'ed by CB ourage and hammer arm 2hko and he will outspeed (under TR) after the speed drop
-Forrestres: Setup SR, spikes, toxic spikes and he can spin, he cant do much damage but i find this a win for forrestres
-Bronzong: Setup on you and after that use explosion
-Slowbro: Slack off stall and ko with ice beam
From the 23 now we have 16 pokemons and a couple of them are subpar option for a team, so the speed is not a issue for dragonite (also without taking incount dragonite beat a couple of them even being "slower"). Dragonite have better attack stat (134 vs 120), much better special attack (100 vs 60), better defenses (91/95/100 vs 77/90/90). Dragonite have the posibility of going mixed, something that kurimunga only wish, also dragonite have a much better movepool including a 2 priority move extreme speed and aqua jet (extrem speed is superior thought) something that every TR sweeper apreciate.
tl;dr Dragonite > Kurimungan
Interesting analysis, Bad Romance. Thanks for posting it.
It definitely justifies the use of Dragonite in Trick Room but there's still quite a few selling points for Kuri.
- Firstly, you've missed a very important Pokemon - Swampert, who usually runs 140 Spe and Ice Beam. 0 SpA Ice Beam deals up to 73% to 252/0 Nite.
- Secondly, Blissey will use Ice Beam a lot more now that Garchomp is back in town. She used it a whole lot in DP before he got banned. Even with 0 SpA EVs she deals 60% avg on 252/0 Dragonite.
- CB Kuri Outrage vs 252/0 Machamp = 103% avg. 252 Atk Machamp's Dynamic Punch followed by Bullet Punch deals an average of 75% to Kuri. Meanwhile 252 Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs 252/0 Dragonite = 64% - 76% (15% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
- Pokemon like Dusknoir, Slowbro and Hippowdon can't switch into Kuri's Outrage without being 2HKO'd. However, they can switch into Dragonite's Outrage and proceed to Slack Off/Will-o-wisp/Pain Split/Ice Fang/Ice Punch/Ice Beam etc. This is huge.
- Kuri's CB Outrage deals an average of 83% to 252/0 Roopushin. A max Atk Adamant Roopuhsin deals an avg of 41% to 252/4 Kuri. Even after Stealth Rock, that's only a 9% chance of 2HKOing. Even with the speed drop from Hammer Arm factored in, Kuri wins this round 9 times out of 10. But Dragonite doesn't do quite as well. 252 Atk Roopushin Stone Edge vs 252/0 Dragonite = 68% - 80% (46% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).
- Ice Shard. Dragonite is 4x weak to it and will fall to Mamoswine, Weavile and co whilst even a Max Atk Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard only averages 70% on Kuri. 'Nite takes at least 115% from the same attack.
There's also a long list of niche Pokemon who 'outrun' Dragonite but are slower than Kuri. I won't use these as a primary argument as some of them are quite rare but here's the few that I think deserve an honorable mention: Aggron, Azumarill, Donphan, Hariyama, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Tangrowth, Cradily, Rhyperior, Spiritomb, Quagsire, Snorlax, Steelix.
Your argument shows that Dragonite can function well in Trick Room but I'm not convinced that it shows 'Dragonite > Kurimungan.' They both have their uses...I wouldn't say either one outclasses the other.
It definitely justifies the use of Dragonite in Trick Room but there's still quite a few selling points for Kuri.
- Firstly, you've missed a very important Pokemon - Swampert, who usually runs 140 Spe and Ice Beam. 0 SpA Ice Beam deals up to 73% to 252/0 Nite.
- Secondly, Blissey will use Ice Beam a lot more now that Garchomp is back in town. She used it a whole lot in DP before he got banned. Even with 0 SpA EVs she deals 60% avg on 252/0 Dragonite.
- CB Kuri Outrage vs 252/0 Machamp = 103% avg. 252 Atk Machamp's Dynamic Punch followed by Bullet Punch deals an average of 75% to Kuri. Meanwhile 252 Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs 252/0 Dragonite = 64% - 76% (15% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
- Pokemon like Dusknoir, Slowbro and Hippowdon can't switch into Kuri's Outrage without being 2HKO'd. However, they can switch into Dragonite's Outrage and proceed to Slack Off/Will-o-wisp/Pain Split/Ice Fang/Ice Punch/Ice Beam etc. This is huge.
- Kuri's CB Outrage deals an average of 83% to 252/0 Roopushin. A max Atk Adamant Roopuhsin deals an avg of 41% to 252/4 Kuri. Even after Stealth Rock, that's only a 9% chance of 2HKOing. Even with the speed drop from Hammer Arm factored in, Kuri wins this round 9 times out of 10. But Dragonite doesn't do quite as well. 252 Atk Roopushin Stone Edge vs 252/0 Dragonite = 68% - 80% (46% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).
- Ice Shard. Dragonite is 4x weak to it and will fall to Mamoswine, Weavile and co whilst even a Max Atk Adamant CB Mamoswine Ice Shard only averages 70% on Kuri. 'Nite takes at least 115% from the same attack.
There's also a long list of niche Pokemon who 'outrun' Dragonite but are slower than Kuri. I won't use these as a primary argument as some of them are quite rare but here's the few that I think deserve an honorable mention: Aggron, Azumarill, Donphan, Hariyama, Regirock, Regice, Registeel, Tangrowth, Cradily, Rhyperior, Spiritomb, Quagsire, Snorlax, Steelix.
Your argument shows that Dragonite can function well in Trick Room but I'm not convinced that it shows 'Dragonite > Kurimungan.' They both have their uses...I wouldn't say either one outclasses the other.
I'm surprised by the lack of Rankurusu discussion considering it can effectively run both bulky and offensive sets, and it makes a fantastic status absorber most notably against Burn which is pretty common with so many Boiling Water users running around, and can generally cripple a lot of key players in Trick Room.
Rankurusu @Leftovers
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Speed)
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Sp.Def
IVs: 0 Speed
- Trick Room
- Recover
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
This thing is basically built to come in walls that can't do anything to it thanks to the combination of bulk and Magic Guard and then set-up Trick Room while the opponent switches. The EVs are built to handle most common Pursuit users with a bit of prediction. The only notable Pursuit user in the game that can 2HKO Rankurusu if it stays in is Choice Band Tyranitar; which doesn't particuarly enjoy been hit with Focus Blast. Between Recover and Leftovers no other Pursuit user can 2HKO you, whilst Rankurusu threatens to 2HKO a lot of them in return, and several of them can't even out-damage Recover. Beating Scizor is a game of prediction, but if you predict correctly either Rankurusu gets to switch or Scizor dies. The only time Scizor really threatens you is if it's Sword Dance, but you can switch out to an appropriate counter if that happens. This guy also serves as a great counter against lead and scarf Infernape since Fire Blast and Overheat neve 2HKO and the only attacks that don't do marginal damage are U-Turn and Flare Blitz; where as Psychic OHKOs in return.
If you don't need another bulky Trick Room user you can simply go with SgtWoodsy's set since it's effectively one of the best (If not the best) Special Attacker Trick Room teams can have, especially given it can actually set-it up itself. Heck you could even run some sort of support set given that the adorable jelly blob has access to Dual Screen, Thunder Wave and even Explosion should it need to blow itself up after setting up screens and/or Trick Room. I'd really go as far as calling it a staple for Trick Room teams just because it's so versatile, and generally kickass at what it does.
As for the current Dragon related discussion, I'm thinking Magnezone would be of great use on any TR team running Kurimungan, especially given how popular both Skarmory and Nattorei are looking to be.
Rankurusu @Leftovers
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Speed)
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Sp.Def
IVs: 0 Speed
- Trick Room
- Recover
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
This thing is basically built to come in walls that can't do anything to it thanks to the combination of bulk and Magic Guard and then set-up Trick Room while the opponent switches. The EVs are built to handle most common Pursuit users with a bit of prediction. The only notable Pursuit user in the game that can 2HKO Rankurusu if it stays in is Choice Band Tyranitar; which doesn't particuarly enjoy been hit with Focus Blast. Between Recover and Leftovers no other Pursuit user can 2HKO you, whilst Rankurusu threatens to 2HKO a lot of them in return, and several of them can't even out-damage Recover. Beating Scizor is a game of prediction, but if you predict correctly either Rankurusu gets to switch or Scizor dies. The only time Scizor really threatens you is if it's Sword Dance, but you can switch out to an appropriate counter if that happens. This guy also serves as a great counter against lead and scarf Infernape since Fire Blast and Overheat neve 2HKO and the only attacks that don't do marginal damage are U-Turn and Flare Blitz; where as Psychic OHKOs in return.
If you don't need another bulky Trick Room user you can simply go with SgtWoodsy's set since it's effectively one of the best (If not the best) Special Attacker Trick Room teams can have, especially given it can actually set-it up itself. Heck you could even run some sort of support set given that the adorable jelly blob has access to Dual Screen, Thunder Wave and even Explosion should it need to blow itself up after setting up screens and/or Trick Room. I'd really go as far as calling it a staple for Trick Room teams just because it's so versatile, and generally kickass at what it does.
As for the current Dragon related discussion, I'm thinking Magnezone would be of great use on any TR team running Kurimungan, especially given how popular both Skarmory and Nattorei are looking to be.
How about pairing CBdragon with Magnezone and scarfFlygon? Flygon can revenge quite a bit of nasty set-up pokemon, and can actually clean up once your slow CBdragon has raped most of the opponent's steels/walls.
Magnezone would need to be scarfed to check Lucario, but that would severely detract from his usefulness under TR. Perhaps a mach puncher (Roopushin/Breloom) could fill up that role.
tl;dr: CBdragon, Magnezone, scarfGon, Mach Puncher, & 2 TR users ^^
Magnezone would need to be scarfed to check Lucario, but that would severely detract from his usefulness under TR. Perhaps a mach puncher (Roopushin/Breloom) could fill up that role.
tl;dr: CBdragon, Magnezone, scarfGon, Mach Puncher, & 2 TR users ^^
soul_survivor
VGCPL Champion
i usually lead with bronzong and dusknoir but in the 5th gen ill do a bronzong, claydol(for amazing earth power/ eq stab.). also rankirisku is a very good tr user.
is it just me but the hardest part of a trick room team is keeping trick room. for me my lead bronzong has explosion but i only dnt use it after TR. i switch out and utilize explosion later.
is it just me but the hardest part of a trick room team is keeping trick room. for me my lead bronzong has explosion but i only dnt use it after TR. i switch out and utilize explosion later.
Having to agree with Bad Romance about Dragonite being good, but after running calcs and finding out a Banded Extremespeed does only around 35% to Lee's Erufuun set I decided Kurimugan is the way to go.
Oh yeah, remember how I said TR sweepers should be able to kill themselves or explode? There's something else that works very well: 5th turn sleep.
@ Life Orb
Chlorophyll
Quiet 252/0/4/252/0/0
- Leaf Storm
- HP Fire / Psychic / Explosion
- Sleep Powder
- Trick Room
Comes in when a sweeper dies with TR still up, throws out a Leaf Storm or two, Powders on turn 5 and resets TR while they're helpless. Second move is up for grabs; HP Fire hits incoming Steels (except Heatran, who obviously walls this), Psychic gives a good STAB (although coverage is still horrible), or Explosion, which sucks now thanks to the nerf, but meh, a free switch is a free switch. This shouldn't really go over Erufuun or anything, but it's pretty useful in lower tiers where it's poor coverage isn't as horrible.
Alternatively, when DW version is released:
Exeggutor @ Custap Berry
Harvest
Quiet 244/0/12/252/0/0/
- Leaf Storm / Grass Knot / Psychic
- Substitute
- Sleep Powder
- Trick Room
Custap cycling actually gives you a reason to use this over Erufuun, because it let's you do the one thing it can't: A +priority sleep.
Oh yeah, remember how I said TR sweepers should be able to kill themselves or explode? There's something else that works very well: 5th turn sleep.
Chlorophyll
Quiet 252/0/4/252/0/0
- Leaf Storm
- HP Fire / Psychic / Explosion
- Sleep Powder
- Trick Room
Comes in when a sweeper dies with TR still up, throws out a Leaf Storm or two, Powders on turn 5 and resets TR while they're helpless. Second move is up for grabs; HP Fire hits incoming Steels (except Heatran, who obviously walls this), Psychic gives a good STAB (although coverage is still horrible), or Explosion, which sucks now thanks to the nerf, but meh, a free switch is a free switch. This shouldn't really go over Erufuun or anything, but it's pretty useful in lower tiers where it's poor coverage isn't as horrible.
Alternatively, when DW version is released:
Exeggutor @ Custap Berry
Harvest
Quiet 244/0/12/252/0/0/
- Leaf Storm / Grass Knot / Psychic
- Substitute
- Sleep Powder
- Trick Room
Custap cycling actually gives you a reason to use this over Erufuun, because it let's you do the one thing it can't: A +priority sleep.