1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

Trick Room Palkia Analysis QC: (3/3) GP: (2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by polop, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    QC: Shrang, Furai , Melee Mewtwo
    GP: GatoDelFuego, Melvni
    Palkia is ready to be uploaded.
    Pink and Proud

    [​IMG]
    Credits goes to kebabe for originally coming up with this.

    [SET]
    name: Trick Room
    move 1: Trick Room
    move 2: Spacial Rend
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Fire Blast / Thunder
    item: Lustrous Orb
    nature: Quiet
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
    ivs: 0 Spe
    skeleton (open)

    Why it deserves to be on site:
    • Palkia's only way of "boosting speed", its slow enough to take advantage of TR to outspeed faster teams, can also function decently outside of it since it outspeeds stuff like Skarmory.
    • Seperates itself from other stuff that can use Trick Room with Water-, Dragon- STAB. Unlike Dialga can beat support Arceus via Hydro Pump in rain.
    • HP investment makes it bulky enough to setup TR at least once
    • Not entirely reliant on team support, this doesn't require a team to use trick room, think of TR more as a speed boosting move. Only truly needs drizzle.
    • Very hard to wall, only things that can wall are probably Chansey, Ferrothorn, and to an extent Grass Arceus. None of these can withstand much prior damage and all must be kept healthy as Hydro Pump will 2HKO Chansey + Ferro after some residual damage while Grass Arceus will be 2HKOed by Spacial Rend after some too.
    • Reaches 184 Spe, p. slow, underspeeds everything unboosted, up to 12 Spe Skarmory
    • Quiet + Lust Orb = strong, OHKOes stuff like 4 HP Arceus after sr. 252 HP = bulky, much better takes on Kyogre + can do some amazing stuff like take Life Orb Brave Bird from ho-oh.

    Set Comments:
    • Trick Room = speed boost, lets it outspeed and destroy the more offensive teams.
    • Hydro Pump = STAB move of choice, Surf is more accurate but misses out on some KOes
    • Thunder is palkia's strongest move against Kyogre, Fire Blast aids in taking out ferro as rain boosted surf + Fire blast 2HKO 100% of the time.
    • Spacial Rend is strong, reliable STAB.
    • EVs maximize HP to better aid setup, maximum Special Attack and Quiet are used to make Palkia hit as hard as possible while being as slow as possible.
    Additional Comments:
    • Hazard support, deo-a / deo-s for more offensive teams, ferro for the more defensive ones (also has great type synergy and palker loves to setup on choiced fire attacks)
    • Kyogre b/c rain boosted hydro pump strong
    • Wobba can help setup TR, but its not exactly necessary by any means
    • same thing with Dual screens
    • partners to weaken / remove grassceus / ferro / chansey
    • Specs Ogre / Tornadus-T excel at this.
    • Scizor is slow / appreciates TR and does this too.
    • Genesect transfers momentum and does said act as well.
    • Outrage + 252 atk is viable for trolling kyogre + chansey if your real desperate


    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Palkia does have a high base Speed for Ubers, it simply isn't high enough to sweep teams. Trick Room, although meant for much slower Pokemon, helps Palkia control Speed. With 0 Speed IVs and a Quiet nature, Palkia can "outspeed" all base 75s under Trick Room. This enables Palkia to outspeed all the base 90 Dragon-types that roam the tier, such as Zekrom and Reshiram. The rest of the moves help Palkia sweep when it sets up Trick Room. Spacial Rend is a strong, reliable STAB move that 2HKOes anything that doesn't resist it and isn't named Chansey. Hydro Pump boosted in the rain and by Lustrous Orb is a frightening move to face, OHKOing even 252 HP neutral Arceus formes and Lugia after Stealth Rock. Surf is a more reliable option but loses many OHKOs that Hydro Pump could achieve. The final choice comes down to which walls you want to harass more. Fire Blast OHKOes Ferrothorn in the rain after it has taken a Surf but is largely useless outside of that. Thunder deals massive damage to defensive Kyogre, which avoids getting 2HKOed by Spacial Rend, but it comes with a chance to paralyze enemies, which might hurt Palkia if it has used Trick Room.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Palkia uses a spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA to make itself bulky and strong at the same time, but there are some alternative spreads that are also viable. For instance, if you want to use a physical move like Outrage to better hurt Chansey and defensive Kyogre, then a spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA with a Quiet nature can be used to maximize the damage output of Outrage.</p>

    <p>Palkia appreciates teammates that can provide entry hazard support so that its enemies can be weakened. In fact, after taking Stealth Rock damage, Palkia's Hydro Pump OHKOs Great Wall Lugia and 252 HP Support Arceus hit neutally by Palkia's Hydro Pump! Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, thus, are great partners for Palkia as they can setup Stealth Rock and Spikes to whittle away at the enemy's health. Ferrothorn and Forretress in particular excel at this job due to their great synergy with Palkia. As an added bonus, Palkia can absorb Fire-type attacks fired at the two and use Trick Room to let them and itself move first. Forretress can also wall enemy Ferrothorn that threaten Palkia. Kyogre is a great partner for Palkia, too. It not only boosts the power of Hydro Pump and makes Thunder 100% accurate, but because Kyogre and Palkia share similar checks, Choice Specs Kyogre can be used to weaken opponents like Latias and Chansey down for Palkia. Pokemon that can stop Chansey, Ferrothorn, and Grass Arceus in general are great partners for Palkia. Tornadus-T, Genesect, and Scizor do an exceptionally good job at this. All three can threaten Grass Arceus with their STAB attacks and transfer momentum to Palkia with U-turn. Scizor in particular performs well at this role. Its low Speed enables it to not only help get Palkia in safely in by providing a slow U-turn but also benefit from the Trick Room Palkia sets, enabling it to hammer down walls if necessary.</p>

    <p>Palkia generally relies on its good bulk and its ability to bluff another set to set up Trick Room. If you want a more reliable way to get Palkia to set up Trick Room, however, you can use Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet can easily Encore Fire- and Water-type attacks for Palkia to set up on as well as kill troublesome foes with Mirror Coat and Counter. If you do not want to use Wobbuffet, giving dual screen support to help Palkia take a hit and set up is another viable idea. Latios deserves a special mention in this role, as it can use Memento after it has set up screens to help Palkia force an enemy to switch, which is a turn Palkia can use to set up Trick Room.</p>
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2013
  2. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,266
    Still too fast.
  3. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    its a bit fast yes, but really it outspeeds all the offensive stuff it needs to during trick room. If your going against a stall team that's using relatively slow mons like skarmory (which you barely outspeed), you actually better control speed since you can choose when to TR and when not to. There's also basically no truly threatening mon that can underspeed palkia and OHKO it. Tyranitar might be bold and can try to get in safely when TR is up to underspeed and crunch, but it doesn't OHKO, and in exchange it takes a hefty chunk from Hpump, in fact, its OHKOed after SR + Spikes after the move.

    252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 294-348 (72.77 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  4. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,246
    I thought this was up already

    qc approved 1/3
  5. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    it's "ivs" btw

    kinda want an outrage mention for sdef ogres, which can be helpful for tornadus(-t) if you partner it w/ tr palker

    QC 2/3
  6. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2012
    Messages:
    1,109
    I started using this today and its really cool. One important thing to note is that thunder can horribly backfire and make the opponent outspeed you in trick room which is why i feel outrage is better.
  7. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    I'll mention that about thunder when I talk about it in SC, I'm not so keen at all about moving Outrage out of AC mostly due to the fact being locked in that move while in TR and being forced to invest in attack isn't fun ;_;. I will mention that Outrage doesn't parahax ogre though in AC.

    TR Palkia will be ready for the 3rd QC check / written by the end of this week at worst.
  8. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,950
    You might want to differentiate Lustrous Orb and Life Orb by listing them as they are to avoid confusion.
  9. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    I have now changed this in the skeleton.

    Trick Room Palkia is now written.
  10. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,062
  11. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    polop ^ that was a QC check, melee sucks though. get this through GP
  12. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,062
    He hasn't edited his post since I posted.
  13. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    I was a bit busy due to IRL things hence the delay, I informed Furai of this on IRC. I added all the things you wanted me to add Melee Mewtwo but didn't remove stuff on Wobba + Screens + Specs Ogre. Wobba + Screens is sorta necessary if your going against teams with fast dragons for a 100% chance of setting up TR. I get its sorta on every analysis, but since Palkia's a bit slow starting out its an exception. While only idiots would keep those mons in on Specs Ogre, walls that can take 3 hits have pretty much dissapeared. If Ogre can get in under TR it can outspeed stuff that can only take 2 hits like Latias as it switches in and 2HKO it before it can move.

    I'm going to assume since I implemented changes it can go through GP as Furai said earlier.
  14. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego The little hand says it's time to rock and roll
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,827
    polop

    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

    Show Hide



    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Palkia does have a high base Speed stat in Ubers, it simply isn't high enough to let it outspeed and sweep teams. Trick Room, although meant for more slower Pokemon, helps Palkia control Speed. and With 0 Speed IVs and a Quiet nature, Palkia can "outspeed" all base 75s under Trick Room. This enables Palkia to outspeed all the base 90 dragons that roam the tier, (AC) like such as Zekrom and Reshiram. The rest of the moves help Palkia sweep when it sets up Trick Room. Spacial Rend is a strong, reliable, Dragon STAB move that 2HKOes anything that doesn't resist it or isn't named Chansey. Hydro Pump boosted in the rain and by Lustrous Orb is a frightening move to face, OHKOing even 252 HP Arceus, as long as it does not resist it, that don't resist it and Lugia after Stealth Rock. Surf is a more reliable option but loses many OHKOes that Hydro Pump could achieve. The final choice comes down to which walls you want to harass more. Fire Blast OHKOes Ferrothorn in the rain after it has taken a Surf, but is largely useless outside of that. Thunder deals massive damage to defensive Kyogre, who which avoids getting 2HKOed by Spacial Rend, (AC) but it comes with a chance to paralyze enemies, (AC) which might hurt Palkia if it has used Trick Room.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Palkia uses a spread of 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Def to make it bulky and strong at the same time, but there are some alternative spreads that are available. If you want to use a physical move like Outrage to better hurt Chansey and defensive Kyogre, then a spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA with a Quiet nature can be used to maximize the damage output of Outrage. </p>

    <p>Palkia appreciates teammates that can provide entry hazard support so that its enemies can be weakened a bit before it starts sweeping. Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, Forretress, and Ferrothorn are great partners for Palkia as they can setup Stealth Rocks and Spikes to whittle away the enemy health. Ferrothorn and Forretress in particular excel at this job due to their great synergy with Palkia. As an added bonus, Palkia can absorb Choiced Fire-type attacks fired at the two and use the moves to set up Trick Room. Forretress can also wall enemy Ferrothorn that threaten Palkia. Kyogre is a great partner for Palkia, (AC) too. It not only boosts the power of its Hydro Pump and makes Thunder 100% accurate, it also lures enemy Chansey and Ferrothorn, Pokemon that wall Palkia, and 2HKOes them with a Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump and Water Spout. Choice Specs Kyogre also enjoys being able to outspeed faster Pokemon in Trick Room like such as Latias and 2HKO them with Choice Specs-boosted Water Spout. Pokemon that can stop Chansey, Ferrothorn, and Grass Arceus in general are great partners for Palkia. Tornadus-T, Genesect, and Scizor do an exceptionally good job at this. All three can threaten Grass Arceus with their STAB attacks and transfer momentum to Palkia with U-turn. Scizor, (RC) in particular excels performs well at this role. Its low Speed enables it to not only help get Palkia in more safely in by providing a slow U-turn, it but also greatly benefit from the Trick Room Palkia sets, enabling it to hammer down walls if necessary.</p>

    <p>Palkia generally relies on its good bulk and its ability to bluff another set to set up Trick Room. If you want a more reliable way to get Palkia to set up Trick Room, (AC) then you can use Wobbufett. Wobbufett can easily Encore Fire- and Water-type attacks for Palkia to set up on as well as kill troublesome foes with Mirror Coat and Counter. If you do not want to use Wobbufett, giving dual screen support to help Palkia take a hit and set up is another viable idea. Latios deserves a special mention at this role, as since it can use Memento after it has set up screens to help Palkia force an enemy to switch, which is a turn Palkia can use to set up Trick Room.</p>

    Plenty of basic errors here...ensure stuff like "setup" or not capitalizing Speed doesn't happen again, please!
    1/2
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  15. melvni

    melvni
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,148
    Also please change the formatting of the evs and ivs on the set from

    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Def
    ivs: 0 Speed

    to

    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
    ivs: 0 Spe
  16. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego The little hand says it's time to rock and roll
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,827
    ^gdi I knew I was making a mistake not copying those to be part of the check >_<
  17. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Well that was a fast check.

    I implemented GatoDelFuego's and Melvni's changes. Thanks for the checks. Sorry about the basic errors GatoDelFuego, I'll try not to make them in other analyses.
  18. melvni

    melvni
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,148
    Checking the rest now tho
    Additions in Blue
    Subtractions in Red
    Comments in Purple
    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Trick Room
    move 1: Trick Room
    move 2: Spacial Rend
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Fire Blast / Thunder
    item: Lustrous Orb
    nature: Quiet
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
    ivs: 0 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>While Palkia does have a high base Speed in for Ubers, it simply isn't high enough to let it sweep teams. Trick Room, although meant for more much slower Pokemon, helps Palkia control Speed. With 0 Speed IVs and a Quiet nature, Palkia can "outspeed" all base 75s under Trick Room. This enables Palkia to outspeed all the base 90 dragons Dragon-types that roam the tier, such as Zekrom and Reshiram. The rest of the moves help Palkia sweep when after it sets up Trick Room. Spacial Rend is a strong, reliable STAB move that 2HKOes anything that doesn't resist it or and isn't named Chansey. Hydro Pump boosted in the rain and by Lustrous Orb is a frightening move to face, OHKOing even 252 HP neutral Arceus, as long as it does not resist it, formes and Lugia after Stealth Rock. Surf is a more reliable option but loses many OHKOes OHKOs that Hydro Pump could achieve. The final choice comes down to which walls you want to harass more. Fire Blast OHKOes Ferrothorn in the rain after it has taken a Surf, (remove comma) but is largely useless outside of that. Thunder deals massive damage to defensive Kyogre, which avoids getting 2HKOed by Spacial Rend, but it comes with a chance to paralyze enemies, which might hurt Palkia if it has used Trick Room.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Palkia uses a spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 Def to make it itself bulky and strong at the same time, but there are some alternative spreads that are available also viable. If For instance, if (seemed a little weird otherwise to say there are some alternative spreads and then only name one) you want to use a physical move like Outrage to better hurt Chansey and defensive Kyogre, then a spread of 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA with a Quiet nature can be used to maximize the damage output of Outrage. </p> (remove space between period and </p> tag)

    <p>Palkia appreciates teammates that can provide entry hazard support so that its enemies can be weakened a bit before it starts sweeping. (do entry hazards do anything specific? otherwise this is true for any sweeper; I also might consider cutting the sentence about Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, etc. because unless I'm missing something it sort of seems like that is just a general list of Ubers hazard users and you get into the ones that are particularly good with Palkia in the following sentence) Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, Forretress, and Ferrothorn are great partners for Palkia as they can setup Stealth Rock and Spikes to whittle away the enemy health. Ferrothorn and Forretress in particular excel at this job due to their great synergy with Palkia. As an added bonus, Palkia can absorb Fire-type attacks fired at the two and use Trick Room to let them move first (or something like this that shows why it using Trick Room is particularly good here). Forretress can also wall enemy Ferrothorn that threaten Palkia. Kyogre is a great partner for Palkia, too. It not only boosts the power of Hydro Pump and makes Thunder 100% accurate, it but also lures enemy Chansey and Ferrothorn, Pokemon that wall Palkia, and 2HKOes them with a Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump and Water Spout. Choice Specs Kyogre also enjoys being able to outspeed faster Pokemon such as Latias in Trick Room such as Latias and 2HKO them with Choice Specs Water Spout. Pokemon that can stop Chansey, Ferrothorn, and Grass Arceus in general are great partners for Palkia. Tornadus-T, Genesect, and Scizor do an exceptionally good job at this. All three can threaten Grass Arceus with their STAB attacks and transfer momentum to Palkia with U-turn. Scizor in particular performs well at this role. Its low Speed enables it to not only help get Palkia in safely in by providing a slow U-turn, (remove comma) but it also benefits benefit from the Trick Room Palkia sets, enabling it to hammer down walls if necessary.</p>

    <p>Palkia generally relies on its good bulk and its ability to bluff another set to set up Trick Room. If you want a more reliable way to get Palkia to set up Trick Room however, you can use Wobbufett Wobbuffet. Wobbufett Wobbuffet can easily Encore Fire- and Water-type attacks for Palkia to set up on as well as kill troublesome foes with Mirror Coat and Counter. If you do not want to use Wobbufett Wobbuffet, giving dual screen support to help Palkia take a hit and set up is another viable idea. Latios deserves a special mention at in this role, as it can use Memento after it has set up screens to help Palkia force an enemy to switch, which is a turn Palkia can use to set up Trick Room.</p>


    GP: 2/2
  19. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Implemented changes, thanks for the GP check Melvni. I will now address comments.
    Yes, entry hazards specifically shove 252 HP Support Arceus and Lugia into Hydro Pump's range. Its also helpful in general but that was the main reason. I thought my mention in set comments was enough, but I reiterated this in AC after reading this :p.

    Deoxys-A and Deoxys-S are great spikers for most teams, but they don't get annoyed by Palkia's Trick Room since they're suicide leads, which is why I mentioned them instead of cutting them off. The pool of hazard users that Palkia can team up with that doesn't get annoyed by TR + rain presence is somewhat small. Forretress and Ferrothorn somewhat benefit from Trick Room, but their great synergy and ability to take Dragon-type moves are the key thing, which I did address. They also lure fire blast from stuff and that's a free switch-in for Palkia (and if that fire-type move is choiced, setup).

    This is now done and ready to be uploaded.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,062
    Sorry, I didn't explain myself properly. It wasn't the concept of lure that I was bothered by it was that Ferrothorn and Chansey were mentioned as things that are lured over something like the Latias that you used as an example or a Haban Palkia. Luring one of these two is much more realistic because they are supposed to be able to check Specs Ogre while also being potential nuisances to Palkia if they remain healthy. Ferrothorn and Chansey shouldn't be lured if you are playing a competent opponent since they aren't Specs Ogre checks and so the opponent will have a real Kyogre check (like Latias or Palkia) that you would really be luring out. (unless you already removed them and they are resorting to the likes of Ferrothorn out of desperation)
  21. Furai

    Furai wellfare
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,821
    dibs on upload when the revamp is done
  22. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Wi-Fi Commissioner

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    2,764
    will upload this when I see Melee Mewtwo's revamp on-site.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)