Other Trick Room Playstyle

[Katakiri]

The Trick Room Play-style in Gen VI

While many may still consider Trick Room a gimmick, the team style has benefited greatly from the generation shift. Bulky offense has stolen the show in generation VI so, with Trick Room historically being only 2nd to stall when it comes to bulk, it's easy to see why Trick Room may be on the rise. To add to it, the standard speed tiers have risen once again which means that Pokemon that were previously too fast for Trick Room might find that they are just slow enough to participate. With old Trick Room staples being buffed and plenty of new faces as well, let's discuss Trick Room in the OU metagame.

Overview
Trick Room teams are charactirized by having at least two Pokemon with the move Trick Room and a team of slow but powerful Pokemon that can abuse the Trick Room. Set-up Trick Room and abuse Trick Room; in practice, it really is that simple for a well-made Trick Room team but getting there from the team building process is the hard part.

Thinking that you can get Trick Room up right when you need it, every time is entirely impractical as are Pokemon that are only good in Trick Room. While a Trick Room team must be dominant in Trick Room, a Trick Room team must be prepared to work outside of Trick Room as well. That doesn't mean you should slap Mega Lucario or Greninja on a Trick Room team but it means that your team choices must be practical both in and out of Trick Room; things like Assault Vest Conkeldurr, CB Azumarril, Offensive Heatran, and Mega Mawile are examples of Pokemon that do not need Trick Room to function but are much more commanding during Trick Room and that is exactly what you want your team to be filled with. While this saying should not be taken too literally, "A Trick Room team should not look like a Trick Room team."

The Trick Room Setters
These Pokemon are the best of the best when it comes to setting up Trick Room.

Gourgeist-Super and Trevenant are largely interchangeable. Gourgeist-Super has immediate bulk and can wall set-up sweepers long enough to burn them and Trick Room but only has Leftovers and Leech Seed recovery. Trevenant can artificially extend its longevity with Harvest Sitrus Berry which makes it much harder to chip-away at than Gourgeist, but it may struggle with set-up sweepers and heavy-hitters with its lesser Defense. Regardless of which one you choose, their Ground-type resistance is a rarity among Trick Room setters and their Ghost-typing serve Trick Room teams well. Celebi shares a similar typing with Trick Room in its move-pool and can be both a wall and a powerhouse with Leaf Storm and Recover.

These two bring a Steel-typing to the table as well as covering both a teams Trick Room and Stealth Rock needs. Jirachi can opperate outside of Trick Room by not lowering its speed and be a threat to fast sweepers in Trick Room as well as slow sweepers outside of Trick Room with Iron Head. This is useful for dealing with slower foes that are preventing Jirachi from setting Trick Room up like Azumarril, Conkeldurr, & Goodra. Bronzong brings in Levitate and a powerful Gyro Ball to switch-in and start some trouble. Carbink is a new Pokemon that has the Trick Room/Stealth Rock combinations but it poses no threat to any Pokemon, very similarly to Shuckle, and should not be used.

The gummi bear Reuniclus is the shining example of an offensive Trick Room user. With both Magic Guard and Regenerator extending its longevity, Reuniclus is a solid choice for any Trick Room team. Cofagrigus and Slowking both pack the option of Nasty Plot as well as Trick Room, which can make them dangerous sweepers if they get set-up; this is especially true for Cofagrigus with the nerf to Steel leaving Ghost-types largely unchecked on a lot of teams. Victini packs a lot of raw power from V-Create & Bolt Strike while lowing its Speed with every V-Create and supporting itself and its team with Trick Room. Meloetta can bring a much-needed Ghost-type immunity to a team with high Special Attack & Special Defense as well as keeping Pokemon with Substitute from stalling out Trick Room turns via Hyper Voice's Substitute-piercing properties. Mew can run a variety of Trick Room sets but Nasty Plot, Stealth Rock, and Status-spreading variants are some of the best.

With the two new Ghosts around, Jellicent and Slowbro have even more stiff competition for a team slot. Jellicent of course has Recover, Slowbro has Regenerator, and they both hold Scald over their competitors. Their Fire, Steel, & Ice resistances allow them to set up on Heatran, Jirachi, Scizor and Slowbro can even get away with setting up on Mamoswine. The Knock Off buff hurt Porygon2 a bit but it's still a very reliable user of Trick Room that can dish out some damage via a Download boost or deal with Pokemon like Gliscor & Heatran via Trace.

While very different, these Pokemon serve a similar role on Trick Room teams. Ideally, they would come into battle late-game with full health, set up a nearly guaranteed Trick Room to rob the opponent of their momentum. Cresselia does this with her unrivaled bulk and Alakazam does this by utilizing a Focus Sash. That is where the similarities end. Cresselia; while pathetic offensively; again has immense defenses, a ground-type immunity to get into battle safely while minimizing hazard damage, and Lunar Dance which has beautiful synergy with Trick Room. On the other hand, Alakazam is best on teams that aren't full Trick Room due to its high Speed but it packs great offenses while Focus Sash lets Alakazam either revenge-KO an opponent, set up Trick Room, or (if the opponent is faster than Alakazam) both. It should also be noted that Reuniclus can pull off the strategy as Alakazam but struggles much more than Alakazam outside of Trick Room and is better off on a full Trick Room team.

Much like how Mr. Mime is never used outside of Baton pass teams, Aromatisse likely won't see use outside of Trick Room teams. Most Trick Room setters are weak to Dark but Aromatisse's pure-Fairy-typing breaks that standard and offers a Dark-type resistance instead. Aromatiss's movepool includes nice team support like Aromatherapy and Dual Screens on top of Trick Room but a simple Wish-passing set is its best shot in OU Trick Room with its base 101 HP; keeping teammates healthy to keep abusing the Trick Room. Its base 99 Special Attack isn't to be overlooked either for tossing out a super-effective Moonblast. Its ability, Aroma Veil, keeps Aromatisse from being Taunted by the likes of Sableye or Deoxys-D/S.

The Muscle
These Pokemon are the slow, bulky power-houses Trick Room is known for.

Veteran Trick Room heavy-hitters, Conkeldurr & Machamp, were graced with Assault Vest, greatly increasing their special bulk and overall longevity. Their Dark-type resistance is invaluable as most Trick Room setters, again, are weak to Dark-type attacks. But on the subject of Dark-type attacks, the Knock Off buff gave both of these Pokemon powerful Dark-type coverage in Trick Room; they did have Payback but, with their speed in Trick Room, Payback was only usually a meager 50 base power when Knock Off is nearly double that. Excadrill is also capable of running Assault Vest but is notable for its typing and Mold Breaker Earthquake which may best be used with Life Orb. Scizor is another bulky powerhouse that enjoys Trick Room and plays very well outside of it too. Mega Scizor is a great Swords Dance sweeper regardless of Trick Room but more dangerous when Trick Room is active. While not as bulky as the other Pokemon here, Breloom packs a fantastic set of resistances with a lot of raw power and priority with the bonus of Spore.

Trick Room sweepers often can't afford set-up turns other than Trick Room itself as that 5 turn counter just doesn't allow it. So Pokemon that are insanely powerful from the start are more than welcomed. When it comes to physical attackers in Trick Room, it's hard to get much stronger than these titans but in addition to that power, most of these Pokemon have priority to work with outside of Trick Room. While it lack the priority of the others, Mega Heracross boasts excellent defenses and typing on top of that insane Attack stat. Mega Tyranitar packs sky-high Defenses and equally high Attack with a Dark-typing that fits perfectly into a play-style that generally carries multiple Fighting-type resists or immunities.

While Rain may be nerfed, Choice Specs Politoed is still one of the hardest-hitting Special Attackers around and the Rain can even support teammates like Azumarill and Fire-weak Pokemon. Life Orb or Choice Specs Heatran packs that always welcomed defensive typing with a wicked Fire Blast. Magnezone gets pretty tough to deal with when it out-paces every Steel-type that could threaten it and is still a powerful Pokemon when no Steel-types are around. Mega Ampharos brings an excellent typing, both offensively and defensively, to any Trick Room team and hits hard with base 165 Special Attack and tanks hits very well with 90/105/110 defenses. Mega Abomasnow can wall-break with its potent mixed attacking stats, great defenses, and STAB Blizzard but it doesn't have the easiest time switching into battle due to its typing. The sheer power of Adaptability Dragalge's Draco Meteor is without rival while its high Special Defense can allow it to switch-in rather freely.

Closing
So as you can see from all these new faces, Trick Room got a massive boost in viability this Gen and yet the play-style remains largely unexplored but this thread aims to change that. Hopefully, by everyone sharing experiences, teams, sets, replays, and opinions, we can turn this thread into a full guide for Trick Room.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

While I must say that is one of the better OPs I've seen, most of this topic was discussed in the Trick Room thread. My personal thought were that even though it seems more viable than last gen, the emphasis on priority really ruins trick room teams.

 

[sidakarya]

Probably the biggest obstacle to Trick Room in this generation is priority, which still ignores the reversed speed-tiers and which is present on every team in some form. This is actually a problem shared with rain teams (and basically any team, in which the strategy is to artificially boost speeds to absurdity), though the bulky nature of Trick Room sweepers might let them take the relatively weaker priority attacks. Because Trick Room is even more limited in time than rain, this kind of team has to be extremely priority-heavy itself to have a chance of operation outside Trick Room. (and to beat faster priority users inside)

I think, rather than dedicate a team centered around trick room, the best way to exploit it is to use a stand-alone Offensive Trick Room mon in a Bulky Offence team, along with things, that can benefit from the few remaining turns of dimensions after having switched in. Cofagrigus and M-Mawile is one such core, which can pivot and weaken walls early-game and try a sweep late-game.

 

[SansNickel]

Carbink actually holds the niche as one of the only trick room setters that isn't screwed over by talonflame. Flying/Fire hits the first 5 setters you mentioned, and u-turn deals with most of the rest. Not to mention most abusers hate it, as talonflame can easily revenge kill when trick room is up... conkeldurr & mega heracross :'(

 

[NoStatusPlz]

stopped reading when you mentioned aegislash as a good trick room user. You do NOT want to move first as aegislash unless you have significantly set up, by which the time trick room will probably already be gone. All trick room does is sacrifice your amazing defenses and make you attack first and then get KO'ed.

 

[Richitt]

Quick question - say two priority users go under trick room- who goes first?

Chou Edit: The slower one (lower speed). Try to use SQSA thread in the future.

 

[Sandoori]

Much like how Mr. Mime is never used outside of Baton pass teams, Aromatisse likely won't see use outside of Trick Room teams. Most Trick Room setters are weak to Dark but Aromatisse's pure-Fairy-typing breaks that standard and offers a Dark-type resistance instead. Aromatiss's movepool includes nice team support like Aromatherapy and Dual Screens on top of Trick Room but a simple Wish-passing set is its best shot in OU Trick Room with its base 101 HP; keeping teammates healthy to keep abusing the Trick Room. Its base 99 Special Attack isn't to be overlooked either for tossing out a super-effective Moonblast.

Might want to mention Aroma Veil here. A Trick Room setter that's immune to Taunt and has an expansive supporting movepool is a title no other 'mon holds, and as such really sets Aromatisse apart from the competition for the role.

Probably the biggest obstacle to Trick Room in this generation is priority, which still ignores the reversed speed-tiers and which is present on every team in some form.

I don't see this as an obstacle to Trick Room itself so much as simply something that changes what you'd use it with. It lets Mega Mawile beat out faster priority users with Sucker Punch, lets Azumarill Aqua Jet before Talonflame can Brave Bird, lets Whimsicott's Encore outspeed a Mega Lucario's Bullet Punch to lock it into Swords Dance instead...there's a ton of examples

 

[Katakiri]

Probably the biggest obstacle to Trick Room in this generation is priority, which still ignores the reversed speed-tiers and which is present on every team in some form. This is actually a problem shared with rain teams (and basically any team, in which the strategy is to artificially boost speeds to absurdity), though the bulky nature of Trick Room sweepers might let them take the relatively weaker priority attacks. Because Trick Room is even more limited in time than rain, this kind of team has to be extremely priority-heavy itself to have a chance of operation outside Trick Room. (and to beat faster priority users inside)

Swift Swimmers are extremely limited in typing, which makes them far weaker to priority, while Trick Room can switch to any Pokemon on the team and still get the full benefit of Trick Room. If Kingdra has to answer to Talonflame, switching another Swift Swimmer isn't going to help bar Kabutops. If Trevenant is threatened by Talonflame, that issue is solve by switching to Mega Tyranitar who can then go on a rampage with Trick Room up.

My question is what priority is threatening Trick Room more than any other team? If Trick Room is up, it's a simple fix of switching to a Pokemon that resists the priority and continue running through the opposing team like in the above situation. And even with Trick Room down, you should still be able to switch to a Pokemon that can take the hits. Priority should pose no more threat to Trick Room than it does any other bulky offense play-style. Trick Room certainly isn't without its issues but priority is far from the biggest issue.
Trick Room teams are, more or less, bulky offense teams that can flip speed tiers upside-down at will. The factor that limits it the most is the reliance on the Psychic/Ghost-types that know Trick Room. So anything that bulky offense can handle, Trick Room should be able to deal with especially with the fact that their extra EVs all go toward extra bulk rather than Speed. If any play-style can tank a hit and dish it back, it's Trick Room.

 

[SansNickel]

Swift Swimmers are extremely limited in typing, which makes them far weaker to priority, while Trick Room can switch to any Pokemon on the team and still get the full benefit of Trick Room. If Kingdra has to answer to Talonflame, switching another Swift Swimmer isn't going to help bar Kabutops. If Trevenant is threatened by Talonflame, that issue is solve by switching to Mega Tyranitar who can then go on a rampage with Trick Room up.

My question is what priority is threatening Trick Room more than any other team? If Trick Room is up, it's a simple fix of switching to a Pokemon that resists the priority and continue running through the opposing team like in the above situation. And even with Trick Room down, you should still be able to switch to a Pokemon that can take the hits. Priority should pose no more threat to Trick Room than it does any other bulky offense play-style. Trick Room certainly isn't without its issues but priority is far from the biggest issue.
Trick Room teams are, more or less, bulky offense teams that can flip speed tiers upside-down at will. The factor that limits it the most is the reliance on the Psychic/Ghost-types that know Trick Room. So anything that bulky offense can handle, Trick Room should be able to deal with especially with the fact that their extra EVs all go toward extra bulk rather than Speed. If any play-style can tank a hit and dish it back, it's Trick Room.

Switching means you lose another turn. You attack, they predict and switch (just like how you can switch), and you've wasted that turn. You now have to switch out, wasting another turn.

Priority hurts because it easily forces switches, and you might as well have not set up trick room. Trick room style has always been set up TR, have lots of momentum, then when it runs out you lose momentum. To gain momentum again you need to set up TR again. Stuff like talonflame is able to immediately stop your momentum even in TR.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Carbink actually holds the niche as one of the only trick room setters that isn't screwed over by talonflame. Flying/Fire hits the first 5 setters you mentioned, and u-turn deals with most of the rest. Not to mention most abusers hate it, as talonflame can easily revenge kill when trick room is up... conkeldurr & mega heracross :'(

Carbink also has a quadruple weakness to Steel Wing. As rare a move as that is on Talonflame, it's still a possibility. Also, STAB Brave Bird does more than SE U-turn.

I don't really like Carbink in a TR mostly because, aside from setting up Trick Room and maybe Screens, it can't do much else except sit there and get worn down. It can OHKO Talonflame with Stone Edge, but that's about the extent of its offensive capabilities.

While I must say that is one of the better OPs I've seen, most of this topic was discussed in the Trick Room thread. My personal thought were that even though it seems more viable than last gen, the emphasis on priority really ruins trick room teams.

Most Trick Room sweepers are bulky enough to shrug off priority moves, most of which are only 40 BP (60 after STAB.) Most are so bulky that even STAB SE priority moves won't KO... 40 BP is just not a lot.

Compared to last gen, Talonflame and Mega Lucario are the only new threatening priority users, but Talonflame doesn't have enough attack to OHKO most of the Pokemon OP listed with Brave Bird, even when banded. Mega Ampharos is probably the best answer to them. It's really bulky, it resists Brave Bird, doesn't take a lot of damage from Timid Luke's Vacuum wave, and is slower (thus faster) and can OHKO both of them.

Might want to mention Aroma Veil here. A Trick Room setter that's immune to Taunt and has an expansive supporting movepool is a title no other 'mon holds, and as such really sets Aromatisse apart from the competition for the role.

Seconding this. Taunt immunity, a resistance to dark and neutrality to ghost really set Aromatisse apart from other TR setters. The whole Taunt immunity is huge; it's also immune to Encore, so Whimsicott's priority Encore can't force you to switch.

 

[EtherDrive]

I'm so eager to try custap berry Trevenant on a trick room team......

when custap berry is released sounds like it would be pretty amazing especially in doubles with weather support

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Most Trick Room sweepers are bulky enough to shrug off priority moves, most of which are only 40 BP (60 after STAB.) Most are so bulky that even STAB SE priority moves won't KO... 40 BP is just not a lot.

Compared to last gen, Talonflame and Mega Lucario are the only new threatening priority users, but Talonflame doesn't have enough attack to OHKO most of the Pokemon OP listed with Brave Bird, even when banded.

Mega Ampharos is probably the best answer to them. It's really bulk, it resists Brave Bird, doesn't take a lot of damage from Timid Luke's Vacuum wave, and is slower (thus faster) and can OHKO both of them.

Um, where have you been? There's Pranksters, Aerialate Pinsir, Sucker Punch MMawile/MAbsol, Aqua Jet Crawdaunt, the occasional shadow sneak Aegislash (less popular than before, but still out there), and Extreme Speed Zygarde. Not to mention old favorites like Bullet Punch Scizor and newly viable ones like Aqua Jet Azumarill and Extremespeed Entei. Its a huge part of the meta game that you clearly haven't given enough though to.

As for the low base power, most of the priority users have access to boosting, and taking a turn to set up Trick Room gives them that. Most likely what will happen is if their priority sweeper is already in, you'll decide not to go for Trick Room until you KO it, and then you'll often get revenge killed before you can set up anyway. There's a couple of other things that can happen, but most of them have similar end results. Even if you do get the move off, its not overly difficult to deal minor damage to your bulky sweeper while weathering its blows until either Trick Room Ends, or its weak enough to KO with a priority move (assuming it wasn't in when you had your setter out).

All in all, I think Trick Room is something that can be effectively done, but like similar strategies (Swift Swim, Tailwind, etc.), it is hindered by its limited time frame (something that doesn't effect standard boosting moves like dragon dance), and shouldn't really be used as a basis for a team. It can be useful for gaining momentum, or dealing with specific threats to teams, but going in with the philosophy that you're going to set up Trick Room whether you can really afford it or not is asking for trouble. Both the setters, and the recipients need to be viable if you don't get the chance to set up, and if you do run Trick Room, you have to be good at looking at teams and identifying threats and opportunities from team preview, and weighing the likely scenarios and if setting up is both likely, and beneficial.

 

[acestriker19]

Wow, all the threads coming up today feel like they're tailored to suit me. I've been an avid user of Trick Room all through 5th gen and the changes in mechanics have definitely helped Trick Room as a playstyle. I've broken 2000 in the current meta-game using a Trick Room team (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/trick-doom-2-turbo-edition-featuring-eelektross-2000.3496275/) and it may just be that I'm getting better but I think its more that changes in Gen VI helped Trick Room a lot.

Priority is not IMO that much of a detriment to Trick Room and is more of a (rotom) wash not really hurting or benefiting it, because unlike other teams that have to invest in speed Trick Room teams can invest fully in Hp so unless said priority user is using SE priority or your using an incredibly frail setter/sweeper with lots of residual damage already the opposing user is not going to have to power to KO in trick room. Priority benefits Trick Room because the opponent now runs weak Priority moves instead of coverage that could have instead killed your setters. Sure an opponent can set up and then go for Priority moves but if Trick Room is set up and even one Pokemon on the Trick Room users side carries either a decently powerful counter-priority move, or can survive an priority attack from the user the Trick Room team will end with an advantage. Even if one your setters ends up dying after an opponent sets up and nails you with priority death for a trick room setter is a holy martyrdom that more often than not hurts the offender more than the user allowing for a free switch into a sweeper with no actual cost and if that sweeper can survive one priority by the boosted opponent the tides have totally turned in the TR user's favor.

The cookie-cutter nature of the meta is one of the greatest benefits that Trick Room teams got this gen. With Weather Wars over and with it the many different team structures along with SNMS (Shiny New Mons Sydrome) going on Trick Room Sweepers don't need to run as much coverage to cover the expected OU metagame (Hell I ran Mega Mawile with only Play Rough, Fire Fang and the ever unreliable sucker punch and the only common OU mon who an opponent could safely switch to was Heatran though that may be a testament to Mega-Mawile who IMO is the best new tool for OU Trick Room.). The cookie cutter meta game makes balanced teams uncommon and stall teams rare two team builds that match up much better against trick room then hyper offensive teams do.

Unfortunately a lot of low speed tier Mons have become viable outside of Trick Room (Aegislash, Azumarill, Mega Mawile etc. can all perform well on Trick Room teams and off) and this has forced me to run my Trick Room teams with VERY slow mons with negative natures and 0 ivs for fear of getting outslowed.

An honorable mention for a Trick Room Sweeper who you may have overlooked.

Okay I was super psyched when Exploud got Boomburst (140 base power) and combined with Scrappy it makes him IMO the only viable Specs user within Trick Room. I wanna show you some calcs of how powerful an unresisted Specs Boomburst is.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Let that sink in for a bit... a neutral Boomburst from a Specs Exploud is almost 2x as powerful as max SpAtk invested base One Hundred and Fifty STAB move from an Aegislash. A STAB move that Exploud can spam in Trick Room with incredible coverage with only two resists thanks to Scrappy. As an added bonus it even goes through subs.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Um, where have you been? There's Pranksters, Aerialate Pinsir, Sucker Punch MMawile/MAbsol, Aqua Jet Crawdaunt, the occasional shadow sneak Aegislash (less popular than before, but still out there), and Extreme Speed Zygarde. Not to mention old favorites like Bullet Punch Scizor and newly viable ones like Aqua Jet Azumarill and Extremespeed Entei. Its a huge part of the meta game that you clearly haven't given enough though to.

I said "compared to last gen." Pranksters and Scizor are not new, nor is Azumarill (though Azumarill is certainly a bit more relevant now.) Shadow Sneak is still a 40 BP move and physical Aegislash is just not as good as special (also, against Trick Room, it's a lot harder to abuse Stance Change.) Entei's and Zygarde's ESpeed do not hit as hard as Dragonite's, and Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet only hits slightly harder than Azumarill's. But I agree on the megas. I didn't say priority wasn't common, just that, compared to last gen, we've only received a handful of good priority users, the most threatening of which is Talonflame who is not much of an issue if you know how to counter it.

The point is, priority users are only threatening to Trick Room because, as you said, the turn Trick Room is used is a free turn to set up. Priority acts the same as it does against non-TR teams, and TR teams are often bulkier. Furthermore, there's nothing saying they can't bring their own forms of priority; Sableye can cripple most priority users with Will-o-wisp, and will also move before any of them while under TR.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I said "compared to last gen." Pranksters and Scizor are not new, nor is Azumarill (though Azumarill is certainly a bit more relevant now.) Shadow Sneak is still a 40 BP move and physical Aegislash is just not as good as special (also, against Trick Room, it's a lot harder to abuse Stance Change.) Entei's and Zygarde's ESpeed do not hit as hard as Dragonite's, and Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet only hits slightly harder than Azumarill's. But I agree on the megas. I didn't say priority wasn't common, just that, compared to last gen, we've only received a handful of good priority users, the most threatening of which is Talonflame who is not much of an issue if you know how to counter it.

The point is, priority users are only threatening to Trick Room because, as you said, the turn Trick Room is used is a free turn to set up. Priority acts the same as it does against non-TR teams, and TR teams are often bulkier. Furthermore, there's nothing saying they can't bring their own forms of priority; Sableye can cripple most priority users with Will-o-wisp, and will also move before any of them while under TR.

Thanks for totally glossing over half the things I said. Let me ask you, last gen in OU, how often did you see Azumarill, or Entei, or Sableye? Priority was a thing last gen, and its become a HUGE thing this gen. Its worth mentioning because, YOU'RE OPPONENT HAVING PRIORITY MAKES SETTING UP TRICK ROOM POINTLESS! You using priority under TR does too. You only have 5 turns to make the most of inverted speed, and if one of them is spent switching in, and another is wasted by taking a priority hit, then you're down to 3. Say you're using Ampharos, and your opponent has a ground type, you can either waste a turn by giving the free switch in, or risk missing the OHKO vs whatever you're fighting right now by using dragon pulse instead. There are so many things that can mess you up, that people have to realize that TR is often more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Lee]

'Your opponent having priority makes setting up Trick Room pointless.'

Bullshit, more experience and less theorymon is needed here.

If I have Trick Room up and my sweeper is facing down an Azumarill then I am in an advantageous position as Azumarill is forced to use Aqua Jet; it's weakest attack. Azumarill cannot use Waterfall or Play Rough. Entei cannot use Sacred Fire. Dragonite cannot use Outrage. Aegislash cannot use Shadow Ball. MegaLuke cannot use Close Combat. Talonflame is different as Brave Bird doubles as it's most powerful attack but it is still forced to use Brave Bird so you have a tactical advantage there...go to Rhyperior or Tyranitar or Mega-Ampharos etc.

Forcing your opponent to utilise what is typically their weakest attack for fear of being OHKO'd without reply is not pointless. Especially when you're using a team archetype that is typically very bulky. I don't see the likes of Escavalier and Mega-Mawile being too inconvenienced by Aqua Jets, Mach Punches, Extremespeed or even Brave Birds. They are, however, not fond of Waterfalls, Close Combats, Earthquakes and Flare Blitzes.

 

[SansNickel]

'Your opponent having priority makes setting up Trick Room pointless.'

Bullshit, more experience and less theorymon is needed here.

If I have Trick Room up and my sweeper is facing down an Azumarill then I am in an advantageous position as Azumarill is forced to use Aqua Jet; it's weakest attack. Azumarill cannot use Waterfall or Play Rough. Entei cannot use Sacred Fire. Dragonite cannot use Outrage. Aegislash cannot use Shadow Ball. MegaLuke cannot use Close Combat. Talonflame is different as Brave Bird doubles as it's most powerful attack but it is still forced to use Brave Bird so you have a tactical advantage there...go to Rhyperior or Tyranitar or Mega-Ampharos etc.

Forcing your opponent to utilise what is typically their weakest attack for fear of being OHKO'd without reply is not pointless. Especially when you're using a team archetype that is typically very bulky. I don't see the likes of Escavalier and Mega-Mawile being too inconvenienced by Aqua Jets, Mach Punches, Extremespeed or even Brave Birds. They are, however, not fond of Waterfalls, Close Combats, Earthquakes and Flare Blitzes.

True. However, in gen V there was less priority (and less powerful priority) so it was much better.

For example:

Last generation, if conkeldurr was in and TR was up, you could expect to kill several pokemon with the correct prediction, completely undisturbed. Most of the time conkeldurr wouldn't even get hit while it was sweeping. However, now you're getting hit with priority before every attack, with Talonflame's Brave Bird obviously being the most common and dangerous.

There is definitely a use to Trick Room being up, however getting hit by powerful priority is still worse than not being hit at all, making Trick Room harder to use.

 

[Lee]

I think the presence of priority is being overstated; yes, there are many viable options and they are all common. But how many priority users does the typical team have? In my experience, about two, sometimes only one. Absorb their weak attack, steamroll them and carry on sweeping.

I've used TR as my go-to gimmick throughout the generations. Priority wasn't an issue last gen and a few more users won't make it an issue this gen. The problems are:

- lack of offensive setters. Gimme a few more things like Reuniclus and OTR Victini and less trash like Dusclops.
- Difficulty in laying SR; momentum is everything in TR and you'd be surprised how seldom you find that one turn to lay SR.
- difficulty against bulky boosters...because you're giving up moveslots on Trick Room you likely won't have as much space for the likes of Roar, Perish Song, Trick, Curse etc so you risk getting steamrolled by odd stuff like Crocune and Curselax.

shit, gotta go, may add to this later

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

There is definitely a use to Trick Room being up, however getting hit by powerful priority is still worse than not being hit at all, making Trick Room harder to use.

If you use slow, bulky Pokemon in Trick Room, you get hit by priority and take damage, since dealing damage with a priority attack is better than not moving at all. If you use faster, less bulky Pokemon, you'll still probably take damage from a priority move, but more, since you're less bulky than slower Pokemon. That's pretty much the entire idea behind Trick Room: make slower, bulky things faster.

Any team is going to take damage from priority moves, but slow bulky pokemon less so. Talonflame is realistically the only new obstacle this gen, having very powerful priority, but has plenty of counters: and trick room allows things like Magnezone to check it, since Talonflame's Flare Blitz does not receive priority.

 

[Wizarus]

The main problem this generation TalonFlame BB, and the best Trick Room sweepers in the game being weak to it. That is Conkeldurr, Machamp, Reckless Emboar(when it comes out). They're some of the most powerful pokemon in the game, they don't have coverage or high-powered STAB problems, and they come with a Dark and bug resist and are immune to burn. Yeah, you can always switch in Porygon2 and force it out, but unless you have SR up(someone said before it's pretty difficult to set up and maintain it in TR), you're wasting turns.

Ursaring is flattening everything in OU with ridiculous coverage and power(probably the best in the game when it comes to actually sweeping things in TR), and burn isn't stopping him, but getting him in with average bulk, no resistances, and 1 immunity is hard, and he's pretty weak to all types of priority. Diggersby overall has worst sweeping capability, but it has Quick attack priority, and still has pretty good coverage.

I know I'm missing a few, but after that, the TR sweepers get kind on meh honestly. They either have problems with coverage(I.E. Esclavier), power(I.E. Scrafty), or high-powered STABs(I.E. Mega Mawile). You need all 3 or you're wasting TR turns against defensive teams.

I honestly don't like relying on most special sweepers(never have since 4th generation), because the pink fat walls will come in for free, set-up wish, and destroy all of your momentum. Assault Vest makes special sweepers even worse this generation. There has to be a specific reason to use special sweepers. Like the old NiteZone, where Magnezone takes out steels, while CB Dragonite cleans up everything with Outrage and revenge kills with Extremespeed. Politoed can work because of the support it brings to the team. Reuniclus can set-up TR, it gets a pass too.

And as far as setters go, Reuniclus remains the best for obvious reasons. Pory2's bulk lets it set-up TR against a wide amount of pokemon, can force things out with a respectable 105 SPA, and becomes an amazing pivot with Trace. Victini can setup and sweep, especially with Rain not being as common as it was a generation ago, just watch out for priority and slower pokemon. Slowking is maybe the only pokemon that can set up due to Regenerator with the ability to set-up TR himself, and Psyshock doesn't hurt. Bronzong can set-up SR, and hits for decent damage with Gyro Ball. Jirachi can be whatever you want it to be. Pokemon like Dusclops that are only good for setting up TR with little way to actually threaten anything offensively are bad(at least in 1v1).

Finally, it's not good to have your entire team based around TR in 1v1, you need at least 1 swift pokemon on your team.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I think the presence of priority is being overstated; yes, there are many viable options and they are all common. But how many priority users does the typical team have? In my experience, about two, sometimes only one. Absorb their weak attack, steamroll them and carry on sweeping.

I've used TR as my go-to gimmick throughout the generations. Priority wasn't an issue last gen and a few more users won't make it an issue this gen. The problems are:

- lack of offensive setters. Gimme a few more things like Reuniclus and OTR Victini and less trash like Dusclops.
- Difficulty in laying SR; momentum is everything in TR and you'd be surprised how seldom you find that one turn to lay SR.
- difficulty against bulky boosters...because you're giving up moveslots on Trick Room you likely won't have as much space for the likes of Roar, Perish Song, Trick, Curse etc so you risk getting steamrolled by odd stuff like Crocune and Curselax.

shit, gotta go, may add to this later

Let me tell you about the last time I fought a trick room team (its been a while, so I don't have the replay, sorry).

Turn 1 (not really, but I'm just calling it that)
Arcanine uses Flare Blitz (42% damage, 58% left)
Reuniclus uses Trick room

Turn 2
Reuniclus uses psychic (56% damage, 17% left)
Arcanine uses Flare Blitz (45% damage, 13% left)
Reuniclus regains health using its leftovers (9% left)

Turn 3
Arcanine uses extremespeed (13% damage)
Reuniclus fainted


Why have would you do that when you could have 2HKO'd with psychic? Now you're without a setter, and one of your better special attackers. I realize this is a pretty lame occasion where my opponent showed he didn't have great foresight, but a lot of people make similar mistakes in the execution of Trick Room, and that's what I'm trying to bring attention to.

I'm not arguing against the pokemon who use trick room, I'm arguing against using trick room when its not ideal. Since Trick Room abusers typically deal less damage than set up sweepers after 1 turn of set up, its not hard to imagine you'll take light damage from your opponent when you don't OHKO, and you can be weakened pretty easily, so much so that you can be KO'd by weak attacks such as priority ones. Trick Room can be a great anti metagame strategy that will destroy teams that rely on frail fast mons, but not every team can be taken down so easily, and often that one turn it takes to set up, will cost you more than you gain.

 

[Jojobobo]

I've always loved the idea of Trick Room conceptually (investing in an attack stat and bulk whilst the other fools are only investing in attack and worthless speed, hah!) but I've never been able to get it to work for me; it seems like the duration is too short and constantly having to switch back to Trick Room users makes your switches not only predictable but also greatly gimps your momentum (plus one way or another you're taking hits through the ongoing need for set up - which in a way negates all that juicy bulk you invested in in the first place). If there was a good amount of Trick Room users with momentum moves like U-Turn or Volt Switch I think it would be better, but there's hardly any (I've tried fast trick roomers like Xatu and Victini for a prized "slow" U-turn so you can bring your sweeper in unscathed, but they really lack the longevity to make such a thing sustainable).

As far as a good user of Trick Room goes - I'd say Pangoro. Parting Shot is as perfect a move as you could ask for for being able to bring a setter in unscathed, and Hammer Arm just makes it slower/"faster". Beyond the setters you can pair it with, Aegislash makes a good sweeping partner as they cover each others weaknesses pretty well.

 

[CAPRICORN 1986]

TRICK ROOM TEAMS ARE NOT A GIMMICK!!!!​

You know what's so damn funny. I just got done beating a guy with my competitive trick room teaM. I actually debated with this guy for 5 minutes saying that trick room teams aren't a gimmick for generation 6 and for the rest of the future with mega evolutions.

You have prominent mega evolutions that simply shine in trick room teams. Such as:

• Mega Mawile
• Mega Heracross (which is my #1 Fav)
• Mega Aggron
• Mega Tyranitar
• Mega Banette
• Mega Abamosnow

Then you have the legendary Hoopa who is going to make an appearance in late Feb/middle March who is Ghost/Psychic who will know Trick Room (This is Confirmed by the way on www.serebii.net). Also will know a move to bypass Protect and Detect (Which is confirmed on www.serebii.net as well). Trick Room teams will be taken more seriously and more as a threat.

TRICK ROOMS ARE NOT A GIMMICK!!! I can't tell people enough about this. Trainers build there pokemon team around speed and delivering heavy blows. But once you have a team that is:

• BULKY
• ABILITY TO DELIVER CRITICAL DAMAGE IN A TRICK ROOM
• ABILITY TO COMPLETELY SWEEP OR AT LEAST GET 2OHKO

Then the game has changed and Trick Room has a more prominent role in defeating a OU team.

 

[CAPRICORN 1986]

The main problem this generation TalonFlame BB, and the best Trick Room sweepers in the game being weak to it. That is Conkeldurr, Machamp, Reckless Emboar(when it comes out). They're some of the most powerful pokemon in the game, they don't have coverage or high-powered STAB problems, and they come with a Dark and bug resist and are immune to burn. Yeah, you can always switch in Porygon2 and force it out, but unless you have SR up(someone said before it's pretty difficult to set up and maintain it in TR), you're wasting turns.

Ursaring is flattening everything in OU with ridiculous coverage and power(probably the best in the game when it comes to actually sweeping things in TR), and burn isn't stopping him, but getting him in with average bulk, no resistances, and 1 immunity is hard, and he's pretty weak to all types of priority. Diggersby overall has worst sweeping capability, but it has Quick attack priority, and still has pretty good coverage.

I know I'm missing a few, but after that, the TR sweepers get kind on meh honestly. They either have problems with coverage(I.E. Esclavier), power(I.E. Scrafty), or high-powered STABs(I.E. Mega Mawile). You need all 3 or you're wasting TR turns against defensive teams.

I honestly don't like relying on most special sweepers(never have since 4th generation), because the pink fat walls will come in for free, set-up wish, and destroy all of your momentum. Assault Vest makes special sweepers even worse this generation. There has to be a specific reason to use special sweepers. Like the old NiteZone, where Magnezone takes out steels, while CB Dragonite cleans up everything with Outrage and revenge kills with Extremespeed. Politoed can work because of the support it brings to the team. Reuniclus can set-up TR, it gets a pass too.

And as far as setters go, Reuniclus remains the best for obvious reasons. Pory2's bulk lets it set-up TR against a wide amount of pokemon, can force things out with a respectable 105 SPA, and becomes an amazing pivot with Trace. Victini can setup and sweep, especially with Rain not being as common as it was a generation ago, just watch out for priority and slower pokemon. Slowking is maybe the only pokemon that can set up due to Regenerator with the ability to set-up TR himself, and Psyshock doesn't hurt. Bronzong can set-up SR, and hits for decent damage with Gyro Ball. Jirachi can be whatever you want it to be. Pokemon like Dusclops that are only good for setting up TR with little way to actually threaten anything offensively are bad(at least in 1v1).

Finally, it's not good to have your entire team based around TR in 1v1, you need at least 1 swift pokemon on your team.

After retiring for 12 years and coming back into the Pokemon world. I can tell you that reuniclus isn't the best setter for a trick room. You want to have a pokemon that has set up trick room and has fainted from battle damage. Then you put out Reuniclus. I may have retired after 12 years and missed out on Gen 3-5. But I can tell you that I have spent MONTHS in the year 2013 studying the PERFECT COMPETITIVE play style that fits well with me. Reuniclus is a BEAST but he isn't a poke monster you want to take damage for the first hit. He is a pokemon you want to not get 2OHKO but 4OHKO. No ifs or buts about it. Have a bulky pokemon that can put the trick room in and then explode. Such as Bronzong for example.

 

[acestriker19]

Let me tell you about the last time I fought a trick room team (its been a while, so I don't have the replay, sorry).

Turn 1 (not really, but I'm just calling it that)
Arcanine uses Flare Blitz (42% damage, 58% left)
Reuniclus uses Trick room

Turn 2
Reuniclus uses psychic (56% damage, 17% left)
Arcanine uses Flare Blitz (45% damage, 13% left)
Reuniclus regains health using its leftovers (9% left)

Turn 3
Arcanine uses extremespeed (13% damage)
Reuniclus fainted


Why have would you do that when you could have 2HKO'd with psychic? Now you're without a setter, and one of your better special attackers. I realize this is a pretty lame occasion where my opponent showed he didn't have great foresight, but a lot of people make similar mistakes in the execution of Trick Room, and that's what I'm trying to bring attention to.

Well what happened after that? Did your opponent just take a nap for the next 2 turns of Trick Room. I assume your opponent used the first turn to kill your Arcanine with maybe a little extra damage from extremespeed.

So the alternative for Reuniclus was to switch out or use psychic twice and be left with 9% hp without trick room up... he would have died for sure next turn and your opponent could not bring in a sweeper because trick room was not set up. Unless your opponent really needed a low hp reuniclus to win the match he made a completely rational decision.

I hope that we can stop talking about priority because priority is not an issue because teams that use the most priority are the fast offensive teams: The kind that we, Trick Room users LOVE to face because these teams invest heavily in speed which is now useless.

I would love the conversation to talk about potential solutions trick teams can use to beat defensively oriented teams because this is where the issues truly lie and brainstorming would truly be appreciated.