How is it hurting stall? It needs that 1 kill to get anywhere close to hitting hard enough to break cores, and with its initial lackluster power, you are just not going to get it against stall.
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Other Trick Room Playstyle
- Thread starter Katakiri
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Yes, even before Mawilite was banned, I used mega heracross for its super effective coverage and sheer power as well. It breaks stall just as well as mega mawile and hits extremely hard.
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Could Diancie work? It's titanic bulk in combination with useful resistances against common TR weaknesses, a decent 100 attack with a fantastic STAB in Diamond Storm, or alternatively Moonblast + Psyshock, and the ability to set up both Trick Room and Stealth Rock in one slot makes it useful on paper
Diancie is a great Pokemon on TR teams because it provides great defensive synergy and lets you avoid on stacking up multiple Psychic-types and thus multiple weaknesses to the same types. The combination of TR + Explosion + SR is also something that no other really slow TR setter had before, so that's another big pro. Finally, having a good counter to Talonflame is always nice on those kinds of teams.
Also, use Mental Herb on your supportive TR setters such as Diancie and Cresselia, it can be life saving.
Also, use Mental Herb on your supportive TR setters such as Diancie and Cresselia, it can be life saving.
So I was considering pasho berry diancie on trick room, hear me out before you call me crazy.
With the ban of mega mawile, I can't come up with anything other than mega scizor as a bulky attacker, I usually use him with knock off though, since I truly like that move, and it's rarely useless.
However, with scizor in Keldeo became quite an huge problem, hydro pump destroys everything, scald even has a chance to 2hko diancie, so I thought, what about pasho berry diancie to act as a lure?
This way you can then explode and bring keldeo to aqua jet/bullet punch ohko range, making him useless for the rest of the match, not only that, with pasho berry you can also setup against azumarill, assault vest azu now cannot 2hko you with a combination of waterfall and aqua jet, while belly drum azumarill cannot ohko you with +6 aqua jet, this way you can also explode against him ( 252+ Atk Diancie Explosion vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 300-353 (86.9 - 102.3%)
As you see, now crawdaunt/scizor can pick up the slack and finish off azumarill too!
With the ban of mega mawile, I can't come up with anything other than mega scizor as a bulky attacker, I usually use him with knock off though, since I truly like that move, and it's rarely useless.
However, with scizor in Keldeo became quite an huge problem, hydro pump destroys everything, scald even has a chance to 2hko diancie, so I thought, what about pasho berry diancie to act as a lure?
This way you can then explode and bring keldeo to aqua jet/bullet punch ohko range, making him useless for the rest of the match, not only that, with pasho berry you can also setup against azumarill, assault vest azu now cannot 2hko you with a combination of waterfall and aqua jet, while belly drum azumarill cannot ohko you with +6 aqua jet, this way you can also explode against him ( 252+ Atk Diancie Explosion vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 300-353 (86.9 - 102.3%)
As you see, now crawdaunt/scizor can pick up the slack and finish off azumarill too!
What is Bronzong?
No, it's just a useless move, Diancie/Carbink won't change that
Physically Defensive Porygon2 switches into everything TalonFlame does, and can either kill it with Thunderbolt after SR or Download, or Recover spam and force it out.
I've actually switched to Mega-Heracross as my main sweeper since I posted that. I honestly think it's the next sweeper after Mega-Mawile available to TR, and Flying spam can be punished with SR.
I don't like making an entire TR team, but Pory2/Slowking/Heracross core has been doing well for me so far.
When i use Porygon 2 in TR teams i prefer going 3 attacks + TR with max HP / max SpA+ to not be complete momentum killer, and with just max HP, CB Talonflame 2HKOes after SR. If the TR setter is completely defensive, i like it to have a sacrifice move to bring in an attacker safely, which all of Cresselia, Diancie, and Bronzong can do.
And yeah, Mega Heracross is a superb wallbreaker for TR teams that gets bonus points for checking Bisharp.
Btw, how many Speed do you guys use on your attackers? Sometimes, it's worth outspeeding some very slow walls outside of TR when facing stall, against which you don't even have to use TR. For example, on Crawdaunt i reduce Speed down to 138 Speed, in order to be able to outspeed Chansey but still underspeed Clefable, a common Pokemon in all kinds of teams.
And yeah, Mega Heracross is a superb wallbreaker for TR teams that gets bonus points for checking Bisharp.
Btw, how many Speed do you guys use on your attackers? Sometimes, it's worth outspeeding some very slow walls outside of TR when facing stall, against which you don't even have to use TR. For example, on Crawdaunt i reduce Speed down to 138 Speed, in order to be able to outspeed Chansey but still underspeed Clefable, a common Pokemon in all kinds of teams.
Another solid Pokemon for Trick Room teams is SD Escavalier. With an SD under its belt and SR up, it 2HKOes at worst everything that can threaten it back, outside of Skarmory. Here are some calcs, with a moveset of SD, Megahorn, Iron Head, and Drill Run:
- +2 252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 195-230 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 180-213 (60.6 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 294-347 (98.3 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +1 252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 200-236 (60.4 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- +1 252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- +2 252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 297-349 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Dear Lord Alex, i know this an old thread but i really bored playing HO.. How about tyrantrum as a TR sweeper?
Been thinking a set like this:
Tyrantrum @ Life Orb
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 SAtk, 252 Hp, 4 Atk
Nature: Quiet
- Stealth Rock
- Draco Meteor
- Crunch
- Fire Fang
I know it was a little wierd, a physical dragon with a Draco Meteor.. But the idea is surprise KO to a physical def poke.. Any comment?
You have 252 Special Attack for one attack that you will only use once before switching. Hmm. Not sure that is a good choice.
It also can't even KO a Gliscor with no Sp.Def investment.
252+ SpA Life Orb Tyrantrum Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 253-300 (71.4 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
ah, i am at office now can not do the calc, thanks anyway for the enlightment.. any suggestion to make tyrantrum works in TR team?
You can't. Base 71 is far too fast for Trick Room, with popular Pokemon like Clefable and Azumarill under-speeding and countering you.
252+ Atk Tyrantrum Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 302-356 (99 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tyrantrum Stone Edge vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 205-243 (59.4 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 308-366 (100.9 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's also the issue of Tyrantrum not resisting any priority (and being weak to 2 in Bullet Punch and Mach Punch), making dealing with it not too difficult for teams with a Scizor or Breloom.
Edit: Forgot about Flying-type priority, which you do resist, though the fact remains that Tyrantrum isn't hard to deal with. Also, don't post when it's 2 in the morning folks.
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hmm, so it's like my dream to build a team around tyrantrum is just a dream..
Btw, it 4:30 PM here, remember time zone? hehehe.. anyways, thanks for the help
0 IV -Speed natured base 71 has a Speed of 132, which puts it below 0 Speed Azumarill (136) and Clefable (156).
On a UU TR team, I had tremendous success with Honchkrow (another base 71). Brave Bird off of 383 Attack was brutal, and STAB Sucker Punch kept it relevant even after TR expired (especially with a couple of Moxie boosts under its wings). It also gets STAB Pursuit, which helps to keep people from switching around in an effort to stall out TR turns. I haven't messed around with Trick Room in OU yet, but it might be worth trying out. Sucker Punch deals 80-94% unboosted to 0/4 Talonflame, meaning it'll outspeed and KO with a Moxie boost or any prior damage.
wow, now that's a beast.. never thought about Honchkrow before.. will pm you later
Disagree. M-Heracross has around that speed iirc, yet it is among the only viable tr sweepers we have left. Clef is one of the go-to switch ins for M-Heracross, but that hasn't affected the usage of herra too much. Azu wrecks tr herra 1v1, smashing it with Play Rough, bit despite this, tr M-Heracross is still a viable set. Victini is another great example of this, being a lot faster at base 100, except Victini has a powerful move to lower it's speed, so being under-sped isn't as much of a problem. I'd say higher than base 100 is too fast for tr, but anything lower is absolutely fine, with some team support.
Don't get me wrong though, Tyrantrum is still a piece of crap.
Just tested Honch in OU, and it's sadly still pretty niche. With a Moxie boost it's great, but before Moxie it just doesn't have the power to break through some of OU's walls. It's passable, but considering that it kind of competes for a spot with Crawdaunt (a much better wallbreaker), I'm not sure it will be that useful in the end.
So here is a set for Azumarill I've been using to great effect for the ORAS OU:
Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Belly Drum
The drop off of Venusaur has massively helped Azumarill sets. With SR in play (more on that later) you can OHKO most Ferrothorn sets with Knock Off. Once it's out of the way, you should have more or less free reign for TR turns if you hazards - more or less confirming 2-3 KOs. Play Rough, though nice, can often let you down due to poor accuracy and really isn't needed with Knock Off and Waterfall, for example:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 292-344 (95.1 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's showing the capabilities of a resisted hit on a Mega, hence your always going to do heavy damage.
For getting the hazards into play, this is what I use as my lead:
Uxie @ Red Card
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Magic Coat
- Stealth Rock
So here's the play:
Against a SR or suspected Taunt user Magic Coat, then TR (if SR was used first), then Memento.
Against a dark/bug STAB pokemon - just TR and let the Red Card force the switch, use SR or Memento at you discretion.
This set can take almost any hit andm barring hax or a tussle with Mega Heracross's Pin Missile, will set up TR. Though it's completely suicidal, sturdier TR mons can be used in the team to get it in later in play, something which I'm trying out more of on my own team now.
Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Belly Drum
The drop off of Venusaur has massively helped Azumarill sets. With SR in play (more on that later) you can OHKO most Ferrothorn sets with Knock Off. Once it's out of the way, you should have more or less free reign for TR turns if you hazards - more or less confirming 2-3 KOs. Play Rough, though nice, can often let you down due to poor accuracy and really isn't needed with Knock Off and Waterfall, for example:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 292-344 (95.1 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's showing the capabilities of a resisted hit on a Mega, hence your always going to do heavy damage.
For getting the hazards into play, this is what I use as my lead:
Uxie @ Red Card
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Magic Coat
- Stealth Rock
So here's the play:
Against a SR or suspected Taunt user Magic Coat, then TR (if SR was used first), then Memento.
Against a dark/bug STAB pokemon - just TR and let the Red Card force the switch, use SR or Memento at you discretion.
This set can take almost any hit andm barring hax or a tussle with Mega Heracross's Pin Missile, will set up TR. Though it's completely suicidal, sturdier TR mons can be used in the team to get it in later in play, something which I'm trying out more of on my own team now.
Here's another set I've been enjoying:
Manaphy @ Splash Plate
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Psychic
- Energy Ball
Though Manaphy's speed is rather high for a TR sweeper, it will under-speed neutral base 80s and positive natured based 70s - which I think is fine as I don't see it being terribly threatened by most pokes with a lower speed (Ferrothorn being the worst of them). It also solves the dilemma of Manaphy Tail Glow sets - do you go for speed or bulk - as you can go for bulk and not feel remotely bad about it.
The key advantage of Manaphy and why I'd recommend it is it does have is quick offensive boosting, which I think is key for a TR sweeper. It also has more than adequate bulk for its role. Scald is there as the stab and to provide extra bulk with its burn chance, for what I've seen Surf doesn't score any additional meaningful 2HKOs on the set at least when using a Splash Plate. Ice Beam is there to blitz bulky dragons and hit Ferrothorn a bit harder, however if that isn't an issue Psychic is nice for m-Venusaur. Last you have Energy Ball, which though is a little niche instantly feels worth it when you KO a Rotom-W. Here's some calcs:
Here's a replay for a taster, I know I'm using surf but you get the gist: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-183155427
Manaphy @ Splash Plate
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Psychic
- Energy Ball
Though Manaphy's speed is rather high for a TR sweeper, it will under-speed neutral base 80s and positive natured based 70s - which I think is fine as I don't see it being terribly threatened by most pokes with a lower speed (Ferrothorn being the worst of them). It also solves the dilemma of Manaphy Tail Glow sets - do you go for speed or bulk - as you can go for bulk and not feel remotely bad about it.
The key advantage of Manaphy and why I'd recommend it is it does have is quick offensive boosting, which I think is key for a TR sweeper. It also has more than adequate bulk for its role. Scald is there as the stab and to provide extra bulk with its burn chance, for what I've seen Surf doesn't score any additional meaningful 2HKOs on the set at least when using a Splash Plate. Ice Beam is there to blitz bulky dragons and hit Ferrothorn a bit harder, however if that isn't an issue Psychic is nice for m-Venusaur. Last you have Energy Ball, which though is a little niche instantly feels worth it when you KO a Rotom-W. Here's some calcs:
+6 252+ SpA Splash Plate Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 292-345 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ SpA Splash Plate Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 334-394 (78.9 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sceptile: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 398-470 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ SpA Splash Plate Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 318-375 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Splash Plate Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 334-394 (78.9 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sceptile: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 398-470 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252+ SpA Splash Plate Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 318-375 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Here's a replay for a taster, I know I'm using surf but you get the gist: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-183155427
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