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Trick Room!

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by cboz1020, Oct 3, 2012.

  1. cboz1020

    cboz1020

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Hello and welcome to my RMT, as many of you know, the VGC's are approaching and this will be my first time participating. So, I'm hoping to play somewhat well and not get completely destroyed. Anyways, this is my Trick room team, I beleive it relies to heavily at times on Trick room being setup, resulting in a make or break scenario in the first few turns. Overall this team has perfomed solidly for me, and I'm hoping for some advice to make it even better! thanks alot!
    [​IMG]
    Chandelure @ Focus Sash/Fire Gem?
    Flash Fire
    252HP/252Sp. Atk
    Quiet
    Trick Room
    Heat Wave
    Shadow Ball
    Protect

    This is my main Trick Room setter and leads in most matches for me. With Shadow ball, I'm able to hit opposing Trick Room setters (Cress, Musharna, Cofagrigus, and other Chandelures) hard and offers a STAB move. Heat Wave , paired with the Fire Gem, can be devastating when used right. However, I find myself losing Chandelure often before Trick Room is up, which is remedied with a Sash. Regardless of the Fire Gem or not, a STAB spread move isn't a bad move. Protect and Trick Room ro self explanitory. Overall this Chandelure has done very good things, and often times allows a quick 4-3 or 4-2 lead early on in the match.
    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop @ Eject Button
    Intimidate
    244HP/252Attack/12Sp
    Adament
    Rock Slide/Sucker Punch?
    Close Combat
    Fake Out
    Wide Guard

    Paired with Chandelure, this Hitmontop has been my most succesful leads. Fake Out and Wide Guard keep Chandelure as well as other partners, giving it support potential. Close Combat can put a huge dent in anything that doesnt resist it. Sucker Punch has sometimes been switch for Rock Slide as to add coverage, and I have found little success in Sucker Punch. Maybe it's my playstyle, but I switch back and forth looking for what could become more advantegous. The trick to this set is the Eject Button, forcing me to switch, then bringing Hitmontop right back in for the Double intimidate drop. With it's natural bulk, this gimmick is often very effective. Other times... I end up losing momentum and wasting my Hitmontop. The little investment into Speed allows my Hitmontop to Fake Out opposing Hitmontops giving my Trick Room Setter a chance to do it's job.
    [​IMG]
    Scizor @ Flying Gem
    Technician
    252HP/252Attack
    Brave
    Bullet Punch
    Bug Bite
    Acrobatics
    Protect

    Overall, Scizor is the closest thing to a revenge killer this team has. Flying Gem Acrobat is used for Ludicolo, Virizion, Fighting types and others not well covered by most of the team. Bug Bite wrecks Hydreigon, and Psychic types when Chandelure is gone. Protect is obvious, keeps it alive, which is a common problem for me. Bullet Punch is used not only as a good STAB move but as a backup for when Trick Room runs out. Scizor is included often in my teams due to it's ability to hit many Pokes hard.
    [​IMG]
    Ludicolo @ Sitrus Berry
    Swift Swim
    252HP/252Sp. Atk
    Quiet
    Ice Beam
    Giga Drain
    Protect
    Scald

    Ludicolo has proven it's worth over and over. When Rain is implemented, It sometimes get's locked into a toss-up for outspeeding (or Out-slowing with TR). Which is why I've considered Rain Dish on this Set to add to it's survivability in rain. Ice beam helps against Dragons and Tornadus, making it vital in countering teams that implement them. Giga Drain over others is to allow Ludicolo to stay in the fight longer. Scald Fills up the last slot as a STAB that definatly can threaten many common Pokes and the potential burn never hurts.
    [​IMG]
    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Lightningrod
    252HP/252Attack
    Brave
    Bonemerang
    Rock Slide
    Fire Punch
    Detect

    This Marowak has caught many by suprise, Thick Club raises it's attack exponentially, allowing for quick KO's with Rock Slide, it's primary attack. Bonermang covers 4 common typings in VGC (and poision, Toxicroak fears Marowak), leaving Heatran begging for a balloon. Fire Punch covers Grass types. Detect keeps it protected from Surf, and other things Marowak doesn't appreciate. With Lightningrod, T-Wave isn't much of a problem, I can switch in and absorb it. It's Defences arn't to terrible allowing it to take physical hits much better then most on my team and then dish out nasty Rock Slide.
    [​IMG]
    Gallade @ Sitrus Berry
    Steadfast
    252HP/252Attack
    Brave
    Trick Room
    Close Combat
    Protect /Helping Hand
    Zen Heabutt

    This is my 6th addition to the team, after alittle thought, I needed another Trick Room setter to avoid the crippeling of my team withought it. Originally, Shadow Sneak was put on this set instead of Zen Heabutt, but was soon changed to help with Gallade's coverage. Close Combat, just like with Hitmontop, can seriously hurt most Poke's that don't resist. Flying types wreck this Gallade as well as Ghosts. Usually I don't bring Gallade into my 4 because I can't decide where it can fit with another 3 withought losing a more valuable Pokemon. I find it doing it's best at the second half of a battle, setting up Trick room late-game or providing support with /Helping Hand.

    Well there you have it my team!
  2. hoult66

    hoult66

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    84
    On the Chandelue I would go with Fire Gem like you said starting out 4-2 or 4-3 is never bad. Also on all your pokemon your missing 4 EV's which youshould really add. Can't see much else. Great Team hope you do well.
  3. Szymoninho

    Szymoninho

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    Hi and welcome to Smogon!

    I have really mixed feelings about this team, since I'm not a fan of using dedicated TR but I really like your choice of Pokemon.

    First of all, you have absolutely no anti-Taunt protection (except of course KOing the Taunter). I'd recommend giving your Gallade a Mental Herb. In VGC you can't have same item on two or more Pokemon, so this should make things easier.

    Secondly, try to figure out some more advanced EV spreads. Here you can find help on this. 252/252 spreads are very predictable.

    Finally, Gallade is a cool Pokemon, but if you replaced it with Cresselia, you could gain a Special Attacker and some sort of bulky support. It also provides nice synergy with Scizor and Hitmontop.

    About Chandelure - I'd rather go for a Ghost or Fire Gem since it's got 252 HP EVs (what's a great thing on a Chandelure, i know it from my own experience). The Gem you choose is of course your personal decision but I recommend the Ghost Gem, for one simple reason - Heat Wave. If the main target of HW protects and you hit the other Pokemon, you loose your Gem. The same thing happens if you miss (HW has 90% accuracy, Shadow Ball 100%).

    Anyway, hope this helps and good luck with this team!
  4. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke Larvitard
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,547
    Actually, he does have a bit of anti taunt defense with Hitmontop's Fake Out.

    You've got a fair team on your hands, but there are definitely some areas for improvement. To start off, I don't really like the look of Ludicolo on the team. It provides you with a very solid anti rain defense, but it looks terribly out of place for the team and Swift Swimming in Trick Room isn't the best idea in the world. To lend your team similar anti weather support and to lend the team a hand with Rage Powder I would suggest replacing Ludicolo with an Amoonguss.

    [​IMG]
    Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry / Mental Herb
    Effect Spore
    Sassy
    252 HP / 252 SpDef / 6 Def, 0 Speed IV
    -Rage Powder
    -Spore
    -Giga Drain
    -Protect

    Amoonguss is the biggest pain in the ass for your opponent. Rage Powder helps in getting your Trick Room off to start and from there, it can just Spore everything thanks to the lack of a sleep clause. Amoonguss is a team player versus rain, as he's resilient to most of the unstabbed Ice Beams Rain will be throwing around and hitting certain members from Super Effective damage. Amoonguss also has great defensive synergy with Chandelure and decent defensive synergy with Marowak and Hitmontop.

    When you have Hitmontop on your team doing so much, Gallade seems like a pretty repetitive Trick Room setter when Hitmontop already provides that excellent Fighting-type STAB. I would recommend replacing Gallade with a different, although just as underutilized, Trick Room enducer: Porygon2

    [​IMG]
    Porygon2 @ Eviolite
    Download
    Relaxed
    252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SpDef
    -Trick Room
    -Ice Beam
    -Thunderbolt / Tri Attack
    -Recover / Protect

    Porygon2 is astoundingly bulky with an Eviolite and shares great defensive synergy with the rest of the team. Chandelure can switch into any Fighting-type attacks aimed Porygon2's way and Amoonguss can Rage Powder obvious Fighting-type attacks to keep Porygon going strong. All the mean time, Porygon2 can hit reasonably hard with his decent coverage and base Special Attack. That's not even mentioning Download which can give you a Special Attack boost for free if you switch in correctly (remember, Download is based off the Defense and Special Defense of the Pokemon opposite to you). I put Thunderbolt as my most recommended option to help you against rain more, but Tri-Attack also hits reasonably hard against rain and gives you a good STAB attack. Porygon2 is one of those few Pokemon around that's actually bulky enough on its own to be able to ditch Protect, so Recover can be used to keep up your longevity.

    I'd also like to clear up some comments that Szymoninho made about EV spreads. Avoiding 252 EV spreads isn't such a matter of predictability as it is EV efficiency. Having specific EV spreads to brave certain hits, outspeed key targets, and KO important Pokemon are important, but if you're just beginning, I can see where it'd be hard to see what would be important enough to build an EV spread around. If you're just beginning, 252 EV spreads are fine.

    Hope my advice helped!
  5. Szymoninho

    Szymoninho

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2012
    Messages:
    36
    Sorry, my mistake. But only Fake Out may be not sufficient in situations when you're facing a faster Fake-Outer. This happened to me several times while setting up TR. In my opinion Mental Herb is an item that makes Trick Room teams much more difficult to stop and you probably won't be disappointed with it.
  6. uxsee

    uxsee

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2011
    Messages:
    99
    Welcome to smogon! To start off, I have a few nitpicks for this team and they are as follows:
    Replace Swift Swim with Rain Dish
    Yep. Do it. Also, you could replace Ludicolo's item with an absorb bulb in order to abuse the opponents surf spam and ludicolo's quad resistance allows it to take little damage from their water attacks. You also don't even really need ludicolo very much and I second themantyke's proposal to add in amoonguss over it.

    Sucker Punch on Hitmontop
    Definitely a must on hitmontop. Hits Latios, chandelure, and cresselia super effectively. It also provides excellent dark+fighting coverage that is only resisted by toxicroak, croagunk, and heracross iirc, all of which are handled by other members of your team. You should also add a dark or fighting gem to hitmontop to help beef up its sucker punches.

    Replace Marowak with Rhyperior
    In my VGC experience, I have found that rhyperior is a lot better than marowak. While, granted, his attack is not as large gigantic as marowak's , he has several assets that make rhyperior better than him.
    A.) Rhyperior has STAB on his ROCK moves
    B.) He can utilize many items, such as rock and ground gem
    C.) He resists flying and shits on tornadus, who seems to be a major threat to this team
    D.) He also has access to lightningrod
    E.) He has access to a better ability in solid rock, since no one is gonna go paralyze a trick room team.

    A.) and B.) actually allow for rhyperior to be more powerful than marowak, so there isn't really any do

    E.) Makes him "bulkier" than marowak

    Heres the set:
    Show Hide

    Rhyperior (M) @ Rock Gem
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Megahorn
    - Protect


    Replace Gallade with either Cresselia of Porygon2
    Either would work really, but Cresselia provides levitate and helping hand support. Cresselia also provides another fighting resist to the team and screen support. Proygon2, however, provides more "fire power" with its large special attack and more reliable recovery.

    Set for Cresselia:
    Show Hide
    Cresselia (F) @ Chesto Berry/Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 240 HP / 240 Def / 28 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Psyshock
    - Helping Hand
    - Trick Room
    - Rest/Light Screen
  7. cboz1020

    cboz1020

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Thank you So much everyone! Rhyperior, Amoongus and Porygon-2 (whom replaced Ludicolo Marowak and Gallade) have become great additions to the team! Synergy is much moe stable and I find myself being able to deal with threats more confidently such as Thundurus and Rain teams!

    Controlling the flow of a battle has never been possible for me, but now I feel like im capable with smart switching and Amoongus to become in control much more effectively then just hitting hard.
  8. Golden Piloswine

    Golden Piloswine

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    432
    I'm a real experienced user of Marowak, and this is a set which I feel works great.

    [​IMG]
    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Ability:
    Lightningrod/Battle Armor
    Nature: Brave
    152 HP/252 Atk/104 SpDef

    Brick Break/Fire Punch
    Bonemerang/Earthquake
    Rock Slide
    Detect

    It's all on personal preference really, a Brick Break OHKO's no HP, no Def Hydreigon. Fire Punch is usually for type coverage. Bonmerang is to break sash users, and to deal non-slashed damage, as well as not damaging a partner, but that can be taken care of if you pair Marowak up correctly. Earthquake's advantage is that it's a spread move, and it never misses, unless stats are altered. Rock Slide, you have. It's ev spread is a little more complex, I find that those extra special defense ev's work quite well, in allowing it to stay alive, so I recommend changing that, and it's ability should be either Lightningrod, or Battle Armor, in case one of your Pokemon has Thunderbolt, or a single target electric move.
  9. cboz1020

    cboz1020

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Thanks to everyone for all the advice and tips on my Trick Room team it did get me to 7th on PO a few months back but when I went over to better competition and just couldn't hang. I thought it was time for a somewhat recall of my team. It's treated me very well so far and now that Madison is getting closer and closer I was hoping to get some help tweaking and improving some more, with your help of course.

    [​IMG]
    Chandelure @ Fire Gem
    Flash Fire
    252HP/252 Sp.Atk/4 Sp.Def
    Quiet
    Shadow Ball
    Protect
    Trick Room
    Heat Wave

    More often than not this is my lead, with a pretty standard set I'm able to set Trick Room and also be very offensive with Fire Gem Heat Wave, or Shadow Ball to counter other Trick Room setters. Completely unchanged sense my last team, because it always filled it's role and works great with my play style.

    [​IMG]
    Hitmontop @ Dark Gem
    Intimidate
    252HP/252 Atk/6 Spd
    Adamant
    Sucker Punch
    Close Combat
    Fake Out
    Wide Guard

    Paired with Chandelure, this Hitmontop can Fake Out to allow Trick Room up, Wide Guard to protect from nasty Surfs and other spread moves. Also, it can mount an offensive with Close Combat against Dark types that would otherwise wreck Chandelure. Sucker Punch is it's answer to psychic types like Latios or Cress being a pain and the Gem makes sure they don't continue to be a pain. Intimidate obviously softens up physical attackers which is always nice. The addition of 6 Spd EV's is to creep on other neutral Hitmontops and make sure I get the Fake out off first turn. Also almost unchanged from my first team.

    [​IMG]
    Scizor @ Flying Gem
    Technician
    252HP/252Atk/4Def
    Adamant
    Bug Bite
    Acrobatics
    Bullet Punch
    Protect

    Pretty common Scizor set, just because it's effective at cleaning up Pokes. Acrobatics to take out Fighting types that wreck Porygon-2. As well as hit many with a strong neutral attack when I have no other option. Bug Bite for Darks that mess Chandelure, and messing up berry sets. Bullet Punch is just priority for when I'm in the sticky situation without Trick Room up. Lately I find Scizor not getting the job done, I don't know if it's my play style or if he just doesn't mesh with my team anymore. Often a replacement lead when Hitmontop isn't chosen.

    [​IMG]
    Amoongus @ Sitrus Berry
    Effect Spore
    252HP/104Def/152Sp.Def
    Sassy
    Giga Drain
    Spore
    Rage Powder
    Protect

    This may be the most dynamic change to my team, before I was just ultra offensive and in your face. But now, sense using Amoongus, I've thought more about controlling the flow of my battles, and this is the Pokemon to do it. Spore let's me keep certain threats at bay long enough to muster a counter, and rage power often takes the heat of my Trick Room setter. Giga Drain for some offensive capabilities and some HP regain and protect because protect is nice. This wacky EV spread is the result of late night PO marathons and thinking my 252/252 Spreads are holding me back, so I dumped a fair amount in Def, at the cost of some Sp. Def. Amoongus already has a large Sp. Def and throughout my battles it was mostly physical attacks against my Amoongus, so this spread felt right, and so far hasn't caused me to much trouble.

    [​IMG]
    Marowak @ Thick Club
    Lightningrod
    152HP/252Atk/104Sp.Def
    Brave
    Fire Punch/Brick Break?
    Bonemerang
    Rock Slide
    Protect

    This is my newest addition after experimenting with Rhyperior and finding it frustrating. Marowak gave me better coverage and lightningrod, but I do lose the STAB on Rock Slide. the Fire Punch Break Break problem arises when I bring Marowak on a team of 4 without Scizor, When they are together I want Brick Break, as the grass, ice, etc. threat is often contained, but apart I miss Fire Punch's coverage. Bonemerang is the answer to my prayers when I get caught in Substitute hell and found no solution with Rhyerior, as well as being a good STAB. I have switched back and forth between Marowak and Rhyperior probably 4 times and no doubt will again before Madison rolls along, but for now, Marowak is in.

    [​IMG]
    Porygon-2 @ Eviolite
    Download/Trace
    252HP/204Def/52Sp.Atk
    Relaxed
    Trick Room
    Ice Beam
    Thunderbolt
    Recover

    This is my other Trick Roomer, as Chandelure doesn't fit well with every situation. BoltBeam offers nice coverage as well as my only answer to most dragons, making Porygon almost always in my 4. It's nice bulk makes sure Trick Room is up, and when download gets me a Sp. Atk raise, it often makes a perfect early match monster. Recover keeps it alive when Fighting types manage to hit hard. There was a time when I ran Trace instead of Download and sometimes it became more usefull, such as Sand Veil/Dry Skin and other weather abilities instead of getting a useless Attack boost. However, download is now in effect do to the amazing moments when I get Sp. Atk boosts.

    There you have it, my first VGC teams Second addition, I am still plagued by the Do-or-Die moment of getting Trick Room up, but when It is up, I am in my environment and able to handle most problems. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, or unique EV spreads (as most of mine are the basic 252/252).
  10. tlyee61

    tlyee61

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    377
    Hitmontop: 252 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Def Careful

    Lets him live a Latios Psyshock/Psychic

    Calcs:

    252 SpA Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Hitmontop: 132-156 (84.07 - 99.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Hitmontop: 132-156 (84.07 - 99.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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