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Tricky gravity in the screen room

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Sweet Jesus, Sep 24, 2012.

  1. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    Elegy96 started interesting debates around baton pass not so long ago. I thought I could start a similar discussion about other moves around which a team can be built. Reflect, light screen, trick room and gravity all have very particular effects that can bring important advantages to a well built team.

    This is a general discussion thread about the effectivness of those moves in the current NU metagame. I've added questions right below. You can answer with your past experience or even better test them out now and share your thoughts and achievements.


    Reflect:
    Creates a barrier that doubles the Defense of all members of the user's team for five turns. This is not treated as a stat change. If the user holds the item Light Clay, it will last for eight turns instead.

    Light Screen:
    Creates a barrier that doubles the Special Defense of all members of the user's team for five turns. This is not treated as a stat change. If the user holds the item Light Clay, it will last for eight turns instead.

    Trick Room:
    When Trick Room is activated, normal Speed priority is reversed for the move's duration

    Gravity:
    When Gravity is activated, numerous effects occur for the move's duration. All Pokemon on the field are affected by these effects, even in doubles and triples. All immunities to Ground-type moves, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Arena Trap are removed. Pokemon who previously had a Flying-type take neutral damage from Ground-type attacks, but Pokemon with Levitate act as though they have no ability.

    It also changes the effective evasion of all Pokemon in play, multiplying all evasion stats by 3/5, or a two-stage decrease.


    (Putting the full definitions would have made this op too heavy, search them in the toolbar for more details)

    • Are the these moves viabe in the NU metagame?
    • Are they worth building a team around?
    • What are the best users?
    • What are the best abusers?
    • Do you consider these moves as overrated or underrated?
  2. Ewil

    Ewil

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    In BW1 i've tried an hyper offensive Double Screens team, with Gardevoir as my screen setter (something like this: 252HP/252Spd with Light Clay and Reflect/Light Screen/Taunt/Memento) she was very useful and bulky and serves to create the situation to send in the star of my team, Linoone, that after a Belly Drum can starts killing things.

    Trick Room is too tricky (yeah pun !) for me and i hate continuously setting this move, but maybe is only just me that sucks at team building those kind of teams. On the ladder i saw a lot of good players playing this style of team and it's pretty scary in the right hands.

    Gravity...i've always been fascinated by this kind of team, but i can never build a good one. I think Gravity as potential, but we have to analyze wich pokes can abuse him and wich are the best.
  3. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent how lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf
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    I have no experience with Trick Room and Gravity, however, I have used Dual Screens a fai number of times.

    Dual Screens is an... interesting concept in NU. Hyper offense is quite unexplored in the tier (at least in my experience), although it's certainly still viable. I'm just going to start off with the three Dual Screeners I've used the most.

    First off, Torterra. Torterra is a pretty cool Dual Screener, as it has that nice solid typing, powerful defenses, packs enough of a punch so that it will never be Taunt bait (not that anybody in their right mind would Taunt a Torterra) and has reliable recovery. This last point is especially cool, as it means that Torterra can last throughout the match to set up a Screen more than once. It can also set up Stealth Rock, but you should probably utilize another Pokemon to set it up. Here's the set I used:

    Torterra @ Light Clay
    Overgrow / Impish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Earthquake / Wood Hammer
    - Synthesis / Stealth Rock

    The first two moves are obviously non-negotiable, but the last four can be customized according to your team's needs. I suppose you could always run two attacking moves, but the utility of Synthesis (or Stealth Rock I guess) was too good to pass up.

    Next there are Ampharos and Gardevoir. I think these two already have Dual Screen sets on site, so I'm not gonna go in depth here. Suffice to say, Ampharos is great because it can bring a sweeper in for free with its slow Volt Switch. It also has Heal Bell if you're into that sort of thing, or you can run another coverage move. Thunder Wave is also an option. Gardevoir is another excellent Dual Screener. Healing Wish allows her to bring in a sweeper for free (and obviously completely rejuvenates them). Her STAB Psychic is incredibly powerful even without investment as well.

    Now here is where it gets interesting, the sweepers themselves. I think that the one that benefits from Dual Screens the most is obviously Belly Drum Linoone. Then we have vicious Shell Smashers such as Gorebyss, Huntail and Carracosta (these like coming in on Torterra's weaknesses). Other nasty sweepers include Swords Dance users such as Sawsbuck and Zangoose.
  4. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang doing 3 teams at the month
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    Dual Screen teams are, from what I've seen, really devastating in the current metagame. Pokemon like Swords Dance Samurott or DD Fraxure are already excellent sweepers, but under screens they just reach a whole new threat level, capable of sweeping whole teams (Samurott working excellently against offensive teams, which oftentimes are unable to kill it before it starts its rampage while Fraxure defeats more defensively inclined teams, especially if they utilize Regen cores, easily). Both Light Screen and Reflect are therefore extremely dangerous and under-appreciated strategies that are definitely worth building a team around. Apart from the aforementioned Ampharos, Torterra and Gardevoir there are also Solrock and Lunatone, both of which can run a set of Light Screen/Reflect/Stealth Rock/Explosion, giving a threatening setup sweeper the perfect support from the get-go.

    Trick Room is cool, but I'm not sure how viable a team around it would be. Even when taking Pokemon without the actual move into account, you'll just end up having Absol/Golurk trample all over you thanks to your team being both slow and predominantly composed of Psychics (there are VERY few Pokemon in NU that learn Trick Room without being Psychic-typed, and most of them are pretty bad, like Porygon). Even if you run something like a Focus Sash-suicide lead to set up Trick Room, 5 turns are from optimal for sweeping, especially with all the Pokemon carrying Protect lately (Alomomola, Lickilicky, sometimes Amoonguss). And if you run multiple Pokemon with Trick Room to set it up more than once, you'll just run into the huge Dark/Ghost weakness again. Trick Room definitely has potential and might warrant more usage, but I don't think basing a good team around it is a good choice in this Metagame, even if a lot of teams don't have the defensive capabilities to take on stuff like Mixed Emboar under Trick Room, who would actually be the first abuser chosen by me if I were to make a Trick Room team. Duosion and Musharna, for example, can still run excellent stand-alone Trick Room teams.

    Gravity is weird. It sounds like an interesting concept, but again, there are too few abusers with the move that aren't Psychic-typed, which means you'll run into the same problems as Trick Room does: Huge Dark/Ghost weakness, too few turns to abuse the move and, worst of all, you can't even make good use of the raised accuracy of most moves as a majority of the Gravity users have very accurate moves already (Duosion, Kadabra, Musharna and Exeggutor, for example). One of the big exceptions might be Regice who gets to use Blizzard/Thunder, but that won't help covering your weakness a lot. It's even worse if you plan to use Gravity to hit everything with Spikes as most users of the move are unable to utilize Roar/Whirlwind and, again, 5 turns are from optimal to pull off something like that. I think Gravity is even worse off than Trick Room: Dedicated teams are a huge gamble in the current metagame and most Pokemon can't even use a stand-alone Gravity set as they can with Trick Room because a lot more team support is required. I'd stay away from this one.

    Good thread, though; Dual Screens in particular need a lot more love in my opinion.
  5. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    Like people who have posted before me, I also lack experience in all-out Trick Room or Gravity teams but have used Dual Screens a good amount of times. For the role of setting up Screens I definitely think Gardevoir is among the best for the job and pairs very well with one of the deadliest sweepers in NU, Linoone. Linoone absolutely loves the support from Reflect and Light Screen to allow it to set up a game changing Belly Drum and sweep the enemy team with +6 STAB Extremespeeds. The reason Gardevoir pairs so well with Linoone is due to their decent type synergy and Gardevoir's ability to beat one of Linoone's most annoying adversary, Gurdurr, who is capable to tanking even a +6 Extremespeed and retaliating with Drain Punch.

    Even with the support of Gardevoir there are still a few other Pokemon capable of taking a hit from Linoone at +6 such as Regirock, Probopass, Klang, Alomomola, and Mawile. In general offense enjoys Spikes to deal with bulky Pokemon and Linoone + Gardevoir is no different. Garbodor works well with the pair and sets up Spikes reliably thanks to its good Speed and bulk. Spikes make a big difference in setting up Linoone sweeps as they help wear down Pokemon alongside your other sweepers for Linoone to clean off the scraps. In the situation of Gardevoir against Gurdurr, just by showing your presence and forcing it out is enough to wear Gurdurr down thanks to Spikes. Gardevoir can also provide clutch support in its last slot in the forms of either Healing Wish or Memento. Memento giving you the effects of Dual Screen and a free switch in a single turn while Healing Wish allowing Gardevoir to sacrifice herself to heal up a weakened sweeper.

    For anybody that wants to try out this quick core as a starting point for a Dual Screens offense team, here you go:

    Gardevoir (open)
    [​IMG]
    Gardevoir (F) @ Light Clay
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Psychic
    - Healing Wish / Memento

    • Evs are set for Gardevoir to outspeed max Speed Adamant Skuntank and rest in bulk. Healing Wish is the preferred choice for the last slot as Reflect and Light Screen are already there to provide defense and having the ability to bring back a weakened sweeper is really damn good and hard to pass up.


    Linoone (open)
    [​IMG]
    Linoone (M) @ Salac Berry
    Trait: Gluttony
    EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Belly Drum
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Seed Bomb
    - Shadow Claw

    OR

    Linoone (F) @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Pickup
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Belly Drum
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Seed Bomb
    - Shadow Claw

    • The first set is preferred however not usable at the moment on PokemonShowdown as it has been incorrectly deemed an illegal set. From what I've heard while Pick Up + Belly Drum was the event for ADV the ability can actually change when transferring Linoone over a generation since Gluttony was only added for Linoone starting in DPPt. Until this is looked into, the second is is what will have to be used. Regardless of which set you use they both have a set goal in mind, Belly Drum and outspeed everything. After a Salac or with max Speed and Jolly Linoone is capable of taking down Haunter without any trouble.


    Garbodor (open)
    [​IMG]
    Garbodor (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Gunk Shot
    - Drain Punch
    - Rock Blast

    • This set is an offensive take on Garbodor that still has the same ability to same up Spikes about as reliably. Thanks to its great Speed tier Garbodor can be a check to Ludicolo and Samurott without a fret while setting up Spikes. Drain Punch is used to weaken Klang, Probopass, and Regirock for Linoone to clean up later while Rock Blast is to prevent SubDisable Haunter from making Garbodor into set up fodder.
  6. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

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    I'm thinking while this looks really cool on paper, a team reaches a point where there is too much set up. Finding free plays to set up spikes, dual screens and belly drum requires your opponent to have pretty mediocre offensive presence. I'm very conscient this is only 3 pokes in a 6 poke team, but countering every set up sweepers and wallbreakers is near impossible with only 3 other pokemon. Dual Screens would have to be used in a very active way and by this I mean they could also help garbodor set up it's spikes rather than just help linoone pull off the final blow. Even then, you must make sure your opponent will not set up something like sub bulk up braviary while you're laying spikes or you'll just get swept before even thinking of setting up linoone.

    I think dual screens can also be used in this more general way like a simple advantage you get over your opponent during 8 turns of normal battling. Sure they can help set up offesnive demons like linoone, but they give a very neat advantage in a general to every team and can be used without having a set up sweeper. I remember seeing a couple of players that could have wrecked me with normal offense behind their dual screens but tried to set up something and ended up missing out on what would have given them the victory. I haven't tried dual screens enough myself to say if it really works when used as a general temporary advantage kind of like stealth rock.

    Another option I would like to test (though I have other testing priorities atm) would be to use screens to set up bulky sweepers that abuse calm mind and bulk up's defence boost. Pokemon like scraggy or bulk up braviary become near invincible after a couple of boosts, but getting those first boosts in the offensive NU metagame is a pretty hard thing. Once again, this is on paper, I'd have to test it out to see if it really works.
  7. Elegy96

    Elegy96

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    After experimenting with a Dual Screens team, I've found out that Ampharos is a brilliant setter of screens. With only one weakness and good bulk he can switch in with relative ease and do his thang. A slow Volt Switch can bring in frailer sweepers like Swoobat or Linoone, or he can support the team with Heal Bell, Thunder Wave, etc.

    Speaking of Linoone, I heartily reccomend him, too. at +4, not many things can stop him. In fact, the only two counters I see so far are Gurdurr and Probopass.
  8. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    @Sweet Jesus
    Since this was me talking about Dual Screens Offense as a whole, I have to say that there is never too much setting up going on. In fact I think that a Dual Screens team should be all about setting up as much as you can, otherwise you aren't making the most out of your Reflect and Light Screen. As for setting up your Dual Screens, Belly Drum, and Spikes requiring the opponent to have mediocre offensive presence is not necessarily true. Garbodor and Gardevoir are both capable of setting up what they need by virtue of their good typing and Speed. Hazards definitely come in handy as they allow you to play your often frail attackers a with much less risk. For example having just a single layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock up give your Pokemon the freedom to play safe before going for the sweep. Even if the opponent predicts you correctly they are losing about 25+% by just switching in while taking the following attack. In some Pokemon's case it can even give them the ability to OHKO certain Pokemon after setting up as in Linoone's case against Piloswine and Alomomola. Linoone setting up its Belly Drum is completely due to the Reflect and Light Screen set up by Gardevoir, the main point of the team. I will say that Garbodor only having Spikes forces you to go off a limb and fetch a SR user instead of a set up sweeper. Maybe we should try Omanyte to set up both SR and Spikes while having a good base 90 SpA to hit SubBU Brav with Ice Beam and Hydro Pump.

    Dual Screens offense doesn't really need to counter every Pokemon in the tier, just hit the opposing side hard enough for it to not be a problem. In my opinion Screens offense is all about getting up your requirements (hazards if needed and Reflect and Light Screen) before going forth and relentless go on the offense by setting up with moves such as Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. I don't really like the idea of Bulk Up and Calm Mind behind Screens since the whole point of choosing a Bulk Up or CM user over a Swords Dancer or Nasty Plotter is for the superior bulk it already provides while setting it up. While the whole point of Dual Screens is giving powerful, but frail Pokemon the ability to set up more freely.
  9. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    Gravity and Trick Room are playstyles that I love to see, but I can't utilize myself. I guess it's because I play more bulky offense than anything, so no Dual Screens either. I will say, though, That Gravity is EXTREMELY underrated. The accuracy boost and eliminating ground immunities is just great.
  10. elchupo

    elchupo

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    Until Trick room and Gravity get items like Light Clay that extend them beyond five turns they'll always be marginalized play styles, unfortunately.

    I don't have much experience with Trick Room, but Gravity is a hugely entertaining way to play, and very difficult to deal with when it's done correctly.
    I made a dedicated Gravity team last gen and the only problem I found was that it fell apart like a paper bag if Gravity was not in play.

    There was one standout on the team that I think worked so well because it was pretty much self sufficient in having excellent bulk to set up Gravity itself, and the necessary attacking prowess to utilise it. I am referring to the perennially underrated Regice.

    Regice @ Leftovers [​IMG]
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP/128 Def/126 SAtk
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Gravity
    - Zap Cannon/ Thunder
    - Blizzard
    - Focus Blast/ Ice Beam
    ---

    The BoltBeam combo on steroids. Three base 120 power moves in total. Zap Cannons accuracy is still somewhat shaky even under Gravity so Thunder is probably the better option, just less fun. If you don't like the idea of all of your moves relying on Gravity, you can always run Ice Beam in the last slot.

    I think it could even work as a standalone set if Gravity's effects don't mess with any of your other team mates business too badly.
  11. NidoJosh

    NidoJosh

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    ^Exactly this

    I've utilised Dual Screens in NU, but I have yet to try Trick Room. I'm sure it could be viable due to all of the faster threats out in the metagame - namely Cinccino, Swellow, Braviary, Scarf Electrode, Zangoose etc

    I believe that Gravity could be used as well, allowing for pokemon with powerful, inaccurate moves to thrive. Out of the top of my head, I believe that Zweilous could be great, effectively negating his accuracy loss due to Hustle, as well as helping out pokemon that utilise moves like Hydro Pump (Ludicolo) or moves like Blizzard (Glaceon,Rotom F)
  12. kniteowl

    kniteowl

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    I have experience with trickroom, I even created a thread for it, although it's out of date. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3460802&highlight=trick room

    I've never had too much trouble with Absol when playing with a trick room team, because I usually carried either Emboar or Gurdurr and if Absol for some reason carries Psycho Cut instead of Superpower, he's not as threatening.

    Golurk is a bit tougher as I've never faced one since the last time I played trick room was during early NU in B&W1 and Golurk was still UU/RU. I never see any Iron Fist Substitute sets. While the No guard sets rarely ever carries Shadow Punch so bulky psychics like Musharna can tank a hit long enough to set up trick room or recover with moonlight. Although I easily see a Substitute set tearing a trick room team apart.

    Usually on a full trick room team you usually have half your team set up trick room while the other half sweep.

    As for having too many psychics/ghost as trick room users making your team vulnerable to dark and ghost types.

    You usually only carry 2 psychics or 1 ghost and 1 psychic for a trick room team, the 3rd remaining slot goes to a normal type like Porygon or Regenerator Audino or the rare Kecleon.

    I find out quite a significant number of pokemon on my trick room teams have perfect coverage or close to perfect coverage with only 2 or 3 moves leaving the 4th move for substitute allowing you to dodge the common sucker punch, especially if you're using pokemon like Marowak or Clampearl. Some pokemon have a bonus 4th move like sleep powder on Exeggcutor so whenever I see a Absol in Trick room I would always put it to sleep if sleep clause was not activated unless I got unlucky and that particular Absol was carrying lum berry or I missed and they picked night slash instead of sucker punch.

    Well that's my 2 cents, I'll have to try out trick room again when the Showdown servers are back up.
  13. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

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    Trick Room is a really great (and under appreciated) strategy in NU. Mainly because NU is left with many slow but powerful pokemon that cannot make it in the higher tiers due to their speed. E.g. Beheeyem, Clamperl, Rampardos, Kingler.

    NU also has a plethora of psychic and normal type mons (and to a lesser extent, ghosts) that have access to trick room, so it really isn't difficult to find a bulky pokemon that can get trick room up easily.

    I have found from using trick room quite a bit, that fitting a steel or rock type (such as Bastiodon, Probopass or Regirock) can be quite difficult.

    But overall the few teams ive made and used based around TR have been quite successful, and can basically walk all over some of the most common teams in the metagame is played right.
  14. kniteowl

    kniteowl

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    Trick Room is a hyper offensive play style and you generally won't have room for bulky defensive pokemon like the ones you stated above.

    If you want a pokemon to set up rocks, there are options with Marawak, Kecleon, Rampardos (lol) and Armaldo.

    If you need a pivot to counter Swellow or the offensive birds in general then you're out of luck and will need to sacrifice something then switch a bulky pokemon to tank a hit to set up trick room again or predict correctly if you switch.

    Now that I think about it, Sheer force Mawile might a good addition to to the trick room offence
  15. Vintage Books

    Vintage Books

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    well it is not really 100% hyper offense as you are generally playing with 2-3 TR mons that are generally bulky defensive mons.

    TR sweepers (much like any kind of sweeper, really) would appreciate rocks/spikes support as it makes it much easier to grab KO's and means that the opp cant revenge with something like sturdy sawk.
  16. Elegy96

    Elegy96

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    Okay I'm going to recommend Dual Screen teams even more. I've had a good W/L ratio with a Dual Screens team consisting of Gardevoir and Ampharos as setters, Linoone Swoobat and Gorebyss as frailer sweepers, and Arbok as a stallbreaker and sweeper. It's worked pretty well so far, if Swoobat sets up well then it's usually game over. Well, as long as there's no pesky Skuntank or Absol on the opposing team, but this can be remedied by a Sub.
  17. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Like most other people in this thread, I have little experience with Trick Room and none with Gravity, but I have been using Dual Screens quite a lot recently. Pokemon such as Samurott or Sawsbuck can usually only set up once in a match but Dual Screens can let them set up two or even three Swords Dances at a time. Linoone is a great abused of Dual Screens, and the amount of times I've swept teams with solely Linoone is crazy. Even stuff like Swords Dance Zangoose can be amazjng under Screens. Maybe even Quiver Dancers can shine under Screens. Pokemon such as Gardevoir, Ampharos, Solrock, and Serperior are all good Dual Screeners and perform this role well. Dual Screens is a very viable, legitimate playstyle in NU and is definitely underrated. This playstyle should be explored more. It leads to some of the most fun, action-packed, quick matches ever.
  18. Bayrock

    Bayrock

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    I don't have any extended exposure to any of the gimmicks listed, but I have had some time to test all of them except Gravity. However, I can say that Gravity is underrated and does have potential when paired with an innovative mind.

    As for screens, I think EBeast brought up a very suitable core for executing the job:
    This same idea can be implemented with a multitude of different combinations, but this core looks reasonably solid for anyone who wants to see some lasting results with Dual Screens. In my own experience, I find screens to be extremely useful in achieving your primary goal. As mentioned, it's very viable to run screens on a team with sweepers, and I generally think it's the best idea to do so.

    When it comes to Trick Room, I personally find it much more viable in the higher tiers, but it's definitely possible to run a successful TR team in NU. I've had a lot of fun testing Trick Room, and definitely won matches before by utilizing it, but I sometimes question the essence of the idea. It's not that it can't pose a serious competition, but it just seems that it's more of a gimmick than anything else sometimes. Regardless, it remains a great option for utilizing Pokémon that would otherwise be outclassed by their terrible speed stats.

    Musharna being the NU pick for this week with access to Trick Room, here's a great offensive set:

    [​IMG]
    Musharna @ Life Orb
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Psychic
    - Signal Beam
    - Moonlight / Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Trick Room
  19. AroundTheSwirlz

    AroundTheSwirlz

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    Has anyone tested screens outside of Heavy Offense? It seems infinitely useful to just play like normal, which could let you set up hazards, and have the overall durability of a more standard team. It could simply force a battle of attrition that the opponent just isn't going to win.
  20. Bayrock

    Bayrock

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    I think the issue with using screens solely to set your hazards would be the obvious spinners, and potentially Magic Bounce; of course, you can always carry a spinblocker. I think the general consensus behind setting up with a sweeper behind screens is that it gets you straight to the point safely, and can end in a victory very quickly. I definitely know what you're saying about playing regularly behind screens, and it is a viable playstyle if you make the right moves. Having that bulk stapled to your team can be the factor that makes or breaks some teams, so you may just need to do so some testing to see how it helps you. Everyone is different, and the same goes for how we adapt to certain aspects of the competitive scene.
  21. FLCL

    FLCL
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    basically wasting a team slot simply for screens is a recipe for disaster when it comes to defensive teams in nu. there are simply too many threats to check and most dual screen users can't deal with the big boys well at all. nu teams simply don't have enough space to fit in a dual screen user for anything other than the purpose of having sweepers that can end the game quickly set up.

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