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Tropicália - Sun abuse team [OU]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Pirika, May 11, 2009.

  1. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
    is an Artist Alumnus

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    Tropicalia


    Intro


    Sunny Day teams are usually underrated in OU metagame. For many people Sunny Day is the worst of the weather effects and most of teams based on sun are considered gimmicks. Most of people prefer using this in UU where there are no auto-weather pokemons to mess with the sun and Solarbeam can work without the fear off losing the free-turn of charge in the sandstorm or hail. But Pokemons like Tangrowth and Infernape can be very effectives sun abusers since they can kill all the auto-weather Pokemons in OU with Fire and Grass attacks. I've been trying to make a good Sunny Day team for weeks and I think I finally got one that works well in OU. When I was laddering in Shoddy Battle I got pretty good results with this team, winning about 80% of the matches. The name of the team is a reference to a brazilian cultural movement in the 60s and 70s.

    Changes are in Bold

    The Team


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    Lead


    [​IMG]


    Azelf @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Sunny Day
    - Explosion
    - U-Turn


    Having a reliable way of setting Stealth Rock is very important to this team, and Azelf can do this very wel . Stealth Rock helps me to deal with major threats of my team like Salamence and Gyarados, and turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs. If Azelf remain untouched after setting Stealth Rock I can use Sunny Day and Explode. U-Turn helps agaisnt Aerodactyls lead, if it use Taunt, I just U-Turn to Donhphan and kill with Ice Shard. I don't use Taunt because Azelf is too frail to use Taunt-Stealth Rock-Sunny Day in the beggining of the match. Usually if my opponent uses Stealth Rock I have a chance to use both Stealth Rock and Sunny Day and have a chance to explode Azelf.

    Sunny Day users


    [​IMG]


    Rotom-h @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/170 Def/88 Spd
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Sunny Day
    - HP Figthing
    -Thunderbolt
    -Will -o - Wisp


    1st Sunny Day user and rapid spin blocker. Most of time Azelf won't have many chances to set Stealth Rocks twice, so Rotom-h stop rapid spinners. Rotom-h is an excellent spin blocker for this team, Starmie won´t cause much damage to him once Sunny Day is set as water attacks have their powers halved under the sun and he can OHKO her with Thunderbolt, same for Tentacruel.

    EDIT: I replaced Overheat by HP Figthing. The reason for this is to have a better way to deal with Tyranitar trying to kill Rotom-h with Pursuit. With Sunny Day, Tyranitar loses its SpDef Boost under Sandstorm and HP Figthing can easily 2HKO it Most Tyranitars with Pursuit are Choice Banded. With Will-o-Wisp Tyranitar's Pursuit won't deal much damage against Rotom-h if I don't switch. Most of time Tyranitar will switch in the same turn I use Sunny Day and try to use Pursuit to kill. Staying and burning Tyranitar, it won't be able to 3HKO Rotom-h and I can 2HKO it with HP fighting. With this set Rotom-h can set-up the Sun without worrying much with auto-weather Pokemons.


    [​IMG]

    Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 164 Sped/252 SAtk/94HP
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Solar Beam
    - Flamethrower
    - Sunny Day


    I changed my second sunny day user to Heatran, I created this set to make a better use of the sun on my team, with this set I can deal with many commons switch-ins on Heatran. These are some commons pokemons that switch in Heatran:

    -Bulky waters
    -Tyranitar
    -Blissey
    -Thick Fat Pokemons (Snorlax/Haryama)
    -Heatran
    -Dragons

    After setting the sun Heatran can abuse the sunligth in 3 ways:
    1-Boosting his STAB attack with the sun
    2-Solar Beam can be used in one turn
    3-Water attacks have their power halved.

    If my opponent switch into a bulky water, Heatran can take surf and kill with Solar Beam. If Tyranitar switchs in the same turn I use Sunny Day it loses its SpDef boost and can be KOed by SolarBeam too. If my opponent brings Heatran, Shuca Berry halves the power of Earth Power and my Heatran can OHKO back with Earth Power. Blissey forces me to switch to Donphan and Thick Fat pokemons forces me to switch to Rotom-h. Dragons force me to switch to Donphan.

    [​IMG]


    Donphan @ Choice Band
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake
    - Thunder Fang
    - Assurance


    This is my main counter to two main threats to my team: Tyranitar and Salamence. Initially, I used Donphan as a Sunny Day user. While it could counter Tyranitar and Salamence very well, the lack of attacking power couldn't help me much. I decided to put a Choice Band on Donphan and see what happens, and it surprised me a lot. Donphan can take a lot of beating and hit back with powerful blows. Ice Shard is for countering dragons such as Flygon and DD Salamence that otherwise would give me a lot of trouble. Earthquake has a lot of power with Choice Band and many people are caught by surprise expecting a defensive Donphan to use as a set-up fodder. Assurance hits ghost in the switch expecting to block Rapid Spin, also it OHKO Latias on the switch. With Thunder Fang I can use Donphan as a Gyarados counter under the sun, while it sounds crazy, under the sun Waterfall has its power halved and Donphan can take a +1Waterfall and KO Gyarados with Thunder Fang.



    Sweepers


    [​IMG]




    Tangrowth @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 200 Atk /230 Spd/ 80 SAtk
    Naive nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Power Whip
    - Hidden Power (Fire)
    -Earthquake
    -Sleep Powder


    This is my main sweeper, Tangrowth is the best user of Chlorophyll. With Naive nature I outspeed Choice-Scarfed Heatran and OHKO with Earthquake. Tyranitar, Abomasnow and Hippowdon are OHKO by Tangrowth Power Whip or HP Fire (in case of Abomasnow), so even if I lose the Chlorophyll boost my opponent will lose an auto-weather pokemon. Sleep Powder puts to sleep anything that Tangrowth cannot kill. His good defense allows him to sweep without worrying much about priority moves.


    [​IMG]


    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 250 SAtk /252 Spd/ 8 Atk
    Naive nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Close Combat
    - Vacuum Wave
    -Flamethrower
    -Grass Knot


    Infernape is an excellent late-game sweeper. If my opponent doesn't have anything faster, Infernape can sweep a entire team with his excellent coverage and having a STAB move boosted by the sun.
    With Blaze and Sunny Day activated, Infernape OHKO Cresselia with Flamethrower . Grass Knot is for water-types. Close Combat deals with Blissey, Snorlax and non-scarfed Heatran. Even without the sun he can sweep unprepared teams. Vacuum Wave aids my weakness agaisnt SubPetaya Empoleon and is useful agaisnt Lucario.






    That's it. Please rate it.

    Sorry if there is any grammar mistake.
  2. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
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    Threat list



    Azelf: Heatran resists to Psychic and is immune to Flamethrower. Under the sun, Tangrowth outspeeds and kills with Power Whip.

    Breloom: Usually I let it put Azelf to sleep and then switch to Rotom-h. Rotom is immune to Focus Punch and OHKO him with Overheat. Having a fire move in all pokes of my team Breloom won't have many opportunities to switch.

    Celebi: Heatran resists to everything Celebi can throw excepts for a rare HP Ground. Infernape easily OHKO with Flamethrower and Tangrowth 2HKOs with HP Fire.

    Dugtrio: The only thing most Dugtrios can trap and OHKO is Infernape. Rotom and Azelf have levitate. Donphan and Tangrowth can take Dugtrio hits.

    Electivire: Rotom-h resists to electric attacks and is immune to ground and figthing. Elective cannot do much against him even with Motor Drive active. Rotom-h can will-o-wisp him and wear him down with HP figthing.

    Empoleon: SubPetaya was a bit problematic, but with Vacuum Wave in Infernape I can kill it after lowering Empoleon's HP. Other variants can be handled by Rotom-h.

    Flygon: Donphan can take any physical hit from Flygon and kill with Ice Shard. Rotom-h can cripple with will-o-wisp.

    Gengar: Heatran is the best counter here, resists to Shadow Ball and OHKO with Flamethrower.

    Gliscor: Donphan walls it and kill with Ice Shard. Rotom-h is immune to Earthquake and can burn it or kill with Overheat if weakened. Tangrowth resists to Earthquake and Power Whip is 2HKO on it.

    Gyarados: Rotom-h can take Gyarados hits and kill with Thunderbolt. Tangrowth resists to Waterfall and OHKO with Power Whip after Stealth Rock damage.


    Heatran: Heatran can switch into fire attacks and retaliate with Earth Power. Tangrowth can revenge kill, under the sun Tangrowth outspeed even ScarTran and OHKO with Earthquake.

    Heracross: Heracross usually have trouble to switch in or set-up since my entire team has fire attacks to deal with it. Agaist choiced Heracross I just switch into something that resists to a predicted attack.

    Infernape: Heatran can absorb fire attacks and kill with Earth Power. Donphan can take physical versions. Tangrowth can revenge kill under the sun with Earthquake.

    Jirachi: Heatran resists to Jirachi STAB attacks and kills with Flamethrower. Infernape can kill non-scarfed Jirachis. Donphan OHKO with Earthquake.

    Kingdra: Rain Dance Kingdra is a big problem here. My best chance against it is to switch to Heatran when Kingdra is locked into Outrage and explode or kill with Dragon Pulse, otherwise Kingdra will sweep my entire team. If I have the sun up, Tangrowth can OHKO with Power Whip after the Stealth Rock damage.

    Latias:Without ScarTran, Latias becomes a big problem here. Donphan deals around 50% with Ice Shard, but almost always Latias will OHKO with Surf or Draco Meteor before using Ice Shard again. Most of times I just put it to sleep with Tangrowth and try to kill with Donhphan.

    Lucario: Donphan can take some physical hits and kill wit Earthquake. Infernape and Tangrowth (under the sun) can revenge kill. Infernape can take the SD with Vacuum Wave.


    Machamp: Rotom-h is immune to Dynamic Punch and can cripple Machamp with Will-oWisp. Under the sun I can easily revenge kill with Infernape or Heatran.

    Magnezone: Heatran can take everything Magnezone can thrown excepts for HP Ground and OHKO with Flamethrower or Earth Power. Tangrowth under the sun outspeeds Scarf versions and kill with Earthquake.

    Mamoswine: Rotom-h is immune to Earthquake and can burn it. Tangrowth doesn't die to Ice Shard and can kill with Power Whip.

    Metagross: Rotom-h resists to Meteor Mash and is immune to Earthquake and Explosion. It can burn Metagross and 3HKO with Thunderbolt. Heatran can switch into Bullet Punch or Meteor Mash and kill with Fire Blast.

    Ninjask: Ice Shard from Donphan can kill before it have time to baton pass.

    Porygon-Z: Heatran resists to Tri Attack and Ice Beam and can OHKO with Flamethrower.


    Rhyperior: Donphan has good defenses and resist to rock attacks. Tangrowth resists Earthquake, outspeeds and OHKO with Power Whip. Rotom-h is immune to Earthquake and can burn it. Infernape cannot switch-in but can revenge kill with Grass Knot.

    Roserade: Heatran resists most Roserade attacks, and OHKO with Flamethrower. Infernape can switch-in if Roserade tries to set-up Toxic Spikes and kill with Flamethrower. Under the sun Tangrowth OHKO with HP Fire.

    Rotom-A: Heatran absorb Will-o-Wisp and Overheat, resists to Ghost attacks. Under the sun Flamethrower is an easy OHKO.

    Salamence: Donphan can kill DD Salamences with Ice Shard (+1 atk Salamence cannot OHKO Donphan with Outrage). With Stealth Rock on the field Salamence won't have many chances to switch-in many times.

    Scizor: Toasted. With fire-attacks in my entire team boosted by the sun, Scizor never gives me trouble.

    Snorlax: Rotom-h can switch in a normal attack and burn it. If he decides to sleep I switch to Infernape and OHKO with Close Combat. Tangrowth can 2HKO with Power Whip.

    Starmie:Starmie gives me a bit problem if I don't have the sun up. Rotom-h block the rapid spin sets and kills with Thunderbolt. Azelf can revenge kill with Shadow Ball. Tangrowth outspeeds Starmie under the sun and kill with Power Whip.

    Suicune: Tangrowth is the best choice here, he can put Suicune to sleep and 2HKO with Power Whip. Rotom-h can take some Surfs if the sun is up and kill with Thunderbolt.

    Togekiss: Rotom-h resists to Air Slash and is immune to Tri Attack Aura Sphere and doesn't have to worry much about Thunder Wave. With Thunderbolt I can 2HKO Togekiss. Heatran resists to fire and normal and can OHKO with Flamethrower under the sun.

    Tyranitar: Donphan is the best counter here. Resisting to Rock attacks and with good defenses to take Crunch. Tangrowth can switch into Earthquake and OHKO with Power Whip. Infernape revenge kill with Close Combat.

    Weavile: Heatran can switch in some ice or dark attack and OHKO with Flamethrower. Infernape resists to ice and dark attacks and can kill with Vacuum Wave.

    Yanmega: Heatran can wall and kill any Yanmega without HP Ground. Rotom-h resists to bug and flying and kills with Thunderbolt. With Stealth Rocks on the field Yanmega cannot switch many times.

    Zapdos: Heatran can take some Thunderbolts and OHKO Zapdos under the sun with Flamethrower.
  3. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
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  4. Janenmori

    Janenmori

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    What are the extra 4 HP evs doing for Azelf? Move them to Satk. You have nothing that can take a special hit. Opposing Heatran, especially the CS flavor, should be causing you trouble. If the Sun is not out, Tangrowth is screwed, and if Tran is packing a Shuca Berry you also lose. Cresselia could help remedy this, by giving you more bulk and it is a viable Screener and Sunny Dayer.
  5. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
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    Ops. I fixed Azelf's EVs.

    About opposing Heatran, Choice Scarf sets doesn't cause much trouble because I can just switch to a immunitie to ground or fire. Shuca Berry trouble me sometimes but is very rare and most time Infernape is there to revenge kill.

    I also considered putting Cresselia in the team but if I replace Rotom-h for her I lose 2 immunities, several resistances and Rotom-h can deal a little better with Tyranitar with will-o-wisp. If I drop Donphan I Tyranitar destroys me.

    I will try replace Azelf for Cresselia and put Stealth Rocks on Donphan to see what happens. =)
  6. Cntrl_Alt_Pwn

    Cntrl_Alt_Pwn

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    Hey thanks for posting dude youve done an amazing job I guarantee this team works you manage to beat me so many times with it.
    Keep up the good work =)
    I wouldn't replace Rotom since he provides so many key resistances and has nice Defences anyway!
  7. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
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    Thanks for the comments =)

    I'm considering replacing Azelf for Cresselia or some other bulky Pokemon. But I'm not sure what set to use or what Pokemon I should use as lead.
  8. Stallion

    Stallion Winner of the "Smogon's Prettiest Girl of All Time" comp
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    Sorry for the late rate, exams and shit.

    Well this is a pretty nice team for what is essentially a gimmick. You're the first dude I've seen in awhile actually who's team isn't set up bait for Lucario or something lol. Ok lets discuss offensive synergy first. As long as the sun is up, your offensive synergy is pretty good. I don't like Donphan really (although it is needed to avoid being 6-0ed by a Salamence) as it can be set up bait, but as it has the important role of setting up Sunny Day, I don't mind it as much here. My main gripe # 1 is that you have alot of set up pokemon, but you have what, two pokemon that can properly take advantage of it (Heatran can't really as it is a revenge killer limited by Choice Scarf). Rotom should probably go, you don't want to lose one of your sun users to crap such as Pursuit now do you? However, you don't want to be beaten by Empoleon either. Zapdos does a similar thing, except is very Stone Edge vulnerable, which isn't exactly good either. You could actually run Sunny Day Bulky Flygon if you wish, it helps prevent Empoleon setting up (aside from Azelf, it doesn't really set up anywhere too easily) and it isn't weak to Tyranitar either. Earthquake/Roost/Sunny Day/Dragon Claw possibly? I dunno, Rotom seems better suited for the role, but the most important thing for weather inducers is to not be Tyranitar weak, due to SandStream. As for a defensive perspective I've noticed that you are really really weak to Calm Mind Latias. I'm actually struggling to find a counter for you that either doesn't have SandStream or isn't enormously Fire weak. Steels and Tyranitar are really all that stops it, and whilst they are usually commonplace enough on most teams to make Latias more of a non-issue, on yours they both are counterproductive. Maybe find something to plug this hole?

    Ahh sorry my rate was pretty shit for my standards, I have trouble with rating gimmick teams like this because I haven't really played a sun team myself, so I don't really know the intricacies required to give you the rate you deserved.

    Hope my little bit at least got you thinking about your team, if nothing else.
  9. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
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    Latias really gives me some problem. While Heatran can 2HKO Latias with Dragon Pulse, after one Calm Mind Latias become very hard to kill. Usually I just explode Heatran when I see a calm mind Latias, most of people don't expect this, but if Heatran dies or my opponent switch out I, Latias gives me a lot of trouble. I'm testing physical Azelf with Zen Headbutt/U-Turn/Stealth Rock/Fire Punch to see if I can do more damage on Latias with U-Turn. Maybe with Trick I have a better way to deal with the Calm Mind set (locking Latias into Calm Mind with Choice Band/Scarf).

    Before using Donphan, I used bulky Flygon (EQ/Sunny Day/U-Turn/Roost) as a sunny day user and it works really well until I noticed the huge DD Salamence weakness my team had. I'll test Flygon/Donphan as Sunny Day user to see how it works. The only drawback is that I lose a spin-blocker and a fight/normal immunity, also having 3 pokemons with ice weakness is not very appealing for me.

    Thank everyone for the comments =) They are helping me a lot.
  10. CREAM_93

    CREAM_93

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    returning the favour you just gave me beforehand...

    might i suggest if you want to use a cresselia that you use the set i have had success with

    Cresselia @ Light Clay / Leftovers (obviosly light clay for the screen / leftovers for sunny day, which you probably want)
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe (if you need some guarenteed KO's you can take the SpD and Spe EV's into SpA)
    Nature : Calm (+SpD, -Atk)
    - Ice Beam
    - Light Screen / Sunny Day (i use screen but you need another user of sun and cress is reliable)
    - Moonlight
    - Thunder Wave

    Considering a Ice weakness is freaking you out, with all around but in particular special bulk (as special ice is more common than physical) cresselia is awesome at taking ice as well as sponging special attacks. Also with stealth rocks up you OHKO standard DD mence with Cress' Ice Beam.

    I would suggest you replace donphan as you could always use sunny day over light screen to make up for that loss and then you have phycical and special bulky sunny dayers in rotom and cress. considering that donphan isn't rapid spinning you dont loose anything by switching for cress except for power drop. also that paralysis support is vital against countering a lot of threats. Loosing reliable tyranitar counter is annoying but ape can revenge kill and if sun is somehow up tangrowth should OHKO.
  11. joshe

    joshe the best

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    Sorry for not rating this team sooner, I had a very busy schedule this week. Now to the team:

    This is a rather nice sunny day team, and it wins so much because it's an unorthodox sunny day team, which is good(you beat me 5 times with this team, so I know). Nearly everything I was going to say has been already said... Heatran is very limited with its choice scarf, but you have to have it for latias. You also don't have any priority on this team, which isn't very good in this metagame, so I'm just going to suggest you try out Nasty Plot Infernape. a Plotted Flamethrower in the sun is ridiculous getting a comparable +3 boost after one turn. A +3 Fire Blast will do at least 110.27% damage to a Naughty/Naive Salamence, a definate OHKO:

    Infernape @ Life Orb
    Blaze
    Evs: 4 hp/252 Spatk/ 252 spe
    - Nasty Plot
    - Fire Blast/ Flamethrower
    - Grass Knot
    - Vacuum Wave

    Grass Knot will OHKO Gyarados with Stealth Rock after a single Nasty Plot boost, Vaporeon will take around 65% damage, and Swampert, Donphan and Hippowdon do not even stand a chance. Vacuum Wave will add priority on your team, as well as OHKOing Naive/Rash Heatran with Stealth Rock. It also picks off any weakened poke.

    A physical Azelf lead would be very helpful on this team, i.e. Latias gets hit hard with a max attack U-turn. Just make sure you get Stealth Rock up if you decide to use Nasty Plot Ape.

    Good Luck.
  12. pokefan0

    pokefan0

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    Spec mences knowing this is a sunny day team can really mess you up with hyro pump on a predicted switch in and one using flamethrower/fire blast under the sun can also take advantage of this, but overall you do have a solid counter in donphan just not sure how well it can take a hit on the switch-in.
  13. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
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    CREAM_93: The problem with Cresselia is that she gives the team a big Tyranitar weakness if I replace Donphan for her. Azelf, Rotom-h and Cresselia are all destroyed by Pursuit or Crunch. Even with Infernaple being able to revenge kill, I lose the sunligth and a sunny day user. With Ice Shard on Donphan I don't fear DD mence much. Cresselia is an excellent wall in Sunny Day teams, but putting her in my team gives me problems with Tyranitar.


    Joshe: I tested Nasty Plot Infernape while ago but the mixed set gave me better results. I usually don't have time to set-up Nasty Plot and without Close Combat Blissey walls me easily. On the other hand, Vacuum Wave gives me a better way to counter ScarfTran and I don't have to worry with Lucario's Extremespeed. I'm once tested Hitmontop for using priority moves because it could counter Tyranitar and could work as a good Sunny Day user. I think a Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch user could be really useful since it can help me against Latias and Starmie.

    pokefan0: Specmence doesn't give much trouble. Without any speed boost, Infernape, Donphan or Heatran can revenge kill it easily. DD Mence are much more dangerous for my team.


    Thank you everybody for the comments and sugestions. I'm testing new pokemons and moves for this team. =)
  14. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
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    I updated Rotom-h moveset. While I changed only one move it makes Tyranitar much less threating to my team. I'm considering removing scarf from Heatran and turning it into a Sunny Day user and replacing Donphan for a bulky revenge killer.
  15. locopoke

    locopoke indulges in unsavory behavior
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    This is a pretty good Sunny Day team, there are just a few things that I would suggest changing.

    First of all, I feel it's really important for your lead to have Sunny Day, which is why I'm going to suggest changing Azelf's moveset a bit.

    Azelf @ Heat Rock
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Jolly
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
    Moveset:
    - Explosion
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Sunny Day

    On weather teams, it's extremely important for your lead to help support the weather that your team is built around. Since Azelf's main purpose is to set up rocks and sunlight then I feel he shouldn't have any attacking moves other than Explosion, since you don't want him wasting your turns of Sunny Day, as weather teams pretty much rely on weather to win, and you don't want to end up losing a battle because Sunny Day expired a few turns too early.

    As for Donphan being one of your Sunny Day users, normally somebody would suggest something else, but I actually think that Donphan could work. If you'd like to replace him though, I would suggest trying to find somebody who's just as bulky as he is. Your Sunny Day users need to have enough defenses to be alive throughout the battle to provide sunlight when needed. Hariyama or Bronzong could work as a replacement for Donphan, you could try either of those out if you want but it's your choice entirely.

    That's about it, I'm not too great at rating gimmicky teams but I did my best. You can really use a lot of different stuff for theses types of teams so there aren't many things I can say. Sorry I took so long to rate it, good luck with your team!
  16. Luxormaniac

    Luxormaniac

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    Sorry I took a while to get to this. I agree with most of what has been said, it is pretty solid for a Sunny Day team. I agree with joshe that an NP Ape will do you a world of good. One potential problem, however, that your weakness to Empoleon illustrates is that you only have 1 water resist and 4 water weaks- the water resist having a pathetic base 50 SpD. It's not walling water even with Sun up. This is the cause of your Empoleon/Kingdra trouble, and I foresee potential problems with Suicune and as well.

    Short of adding a Cherrim to absorb water moves in the sun thanks to Flower Gift, there aren't many options to remedy this. Running the numbers, a Jumpluff can actually take a Surf with or without the sun, running max/max+, Sub up, and start Seeding, but its too much of a niche role and besides, Empoleon will Sub (although you will win if it uses Agility under the sun) first and Suicune will CM. I want to suggest adding a Chlorophyll abuser that can take them on- but I'm afraid of losing the synergy/resists/etc. that you've already got.

    It really is a relatively minor flaw, albeit a difficult one to fix. As long as the sun stays up Tangrowth should deal with them. I really can't find much to change about this team.

    Oh yes, and I agree with locopoke about a Sunny Day Azelf lead.

    Hope this helps- not that I said much that was helpful.
  17. ToF

    ToF
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    I'd definitely consider the lead that locopoke pointed out. Not only can it set-up Stealth Rock and the sun early on in the game, but it can also Explode, meaning you maximize the amount of turns of sun you can get without having to switch-out.

    Your offensive synergy is very nice and well thought-out. Donphan is quite useful here, as it protects you against both Tyranitar and Salamence. However defensively is where you find some trouble. Often I believe you'll find yourself having trouble with heavy offensive threats or full-blown stall. With Spikes and Stealth Rock possibly on your side of the field, you team will face trouble breaking opposing defensive cores. Mixnape helps in this regard, but still leaves you succeptible to bulky waters such as Gyarados and Starmie.

    I feel like Bronzong would be much more useful over Rotom as both a sunny-day user as well as a handy resistance for the team. It can definitely handle both Empoleon and Dragon Dance Kingdra (more common variant), and can also be EV'd to take a hit in the rain. Its bulk would be much appreciated on this type of team, and also removes your succeptibility to Tyranitar with Rotom. Scizor shouldn't be too much of a problem with Choice Scarf Heatran, and Gyarados can be stopped by Tangrowth.

    Everything else looks pretty good, good luck.
  18. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
    is an Artist Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    533
    I changed a lot of things now. Turned Heatran into a Sunny Day user and Donphan into a Choice Band. I'm still testing somethings to replace Rotom-h. I used Azelf that locopoke suggested and its working pretty well. As joshe suggest I put Vacuum Wave in Infernape to help me against SubPetaya Empoleon. Losing HP Ice is not a big problem now that I can deal with it with Donphan.

    Thank you everyone. Your comments are helping me a lot. =)
  19. Dormin

    Dormin

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2007
    Messages:
    375
    Hmmmm, most of your problems have actually been addressed by everyone else, but I think I can add a little commentary.

    I really like Donphan on this team, but you might consider testing a few tweaks. First off, I think I would take more advantage of the fact that Donphan is usually considered defensive set-up fodder. For one, opposing Rotom forms love to switch in to Donphan with the knowledge that they are going to easily block a rapid spin and take next to nothing from a Donphan due to Levitate. For this reason I really recommend replacing one of your moves (probably one of the fangs) for Assurance. Rotom and Latias will be really surprised when they switch in and take a 100 base power dark move due to Stealth Rock damage. I think this would be a great addition to the set. Your opponent will still probably be suspicious of the lack of leftovers, but it should still work well.

    That being said, have you considered an Expert Belt over Choice Band? You still take down Salamence after Stealth Rock with Ice Shard, and now you can surprise opponents who suspect a choice band. Some calcs.

    Choice Band Ice Shard: 94.26%-111.18% to standard Salamence

    Expert Belt Ice Shard: 75.23% - 89.73% to standard Salamence

    Against Latias you miss out on the 2HKO Ice Shard with rocks that Choice Band gives, so that is something to consider. Choice Band Assurance OHKOs the standard defensive CMLatias that might decide to switch in. With Expert Belt this is reduced to a 66.67% chance of a OHKO after rocks, but then you easily KO with Ice Shard. Food for thought I guess.

    As for Kingdra, Tangrowth should work fine, since Kingdra never carrys anything other than Water+Outrage, so even if Outrage KOs Tangrowth you have Heatran to setup Sunny Day and hit it hard with Solarbeam.

    Overall, this is really one of the best Sunny Day teams I have seen, which is pretty impressive considering the fact that it is a hard type of team to create outside of Ubers. With my few changes to Donphan you should be able to cover your threats well enough to be pretty solid. Good luck!
  20. Pirika

    Pirika O boxeador revolucionário
    is an Artist Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    533
    I loved the idea of using Assurance, Latias is the main threat for my team now and I think Assurance can help me a lot to deal with it. I'll keep Choice Band because Earthquake keeps a lot of power with it, making Donphan a good absorber of Thunder Waves from Blissey and capable of 2HKO her with Earthquake.

    Thanks a lot Dormin.

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