Gen 3 Trying to perfect a ddtar team (RMT)

#1
Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 204 HP / 32 Atk / 56 Def / 216 SDef
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Rest/Self Destruct

I was getting owned by jolteon/zapdos leads so i made snorlax my team leader. Not sure on what to choose for the last move

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 16 Spd / 36 SAtk / 56 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt/Fire Punch
- Wish

Just support for the team, wishes sala and snorlax mainly. Reflect is to help against Swamperts/Metagross/Heracross/TTar mainly. Fire punch or Tbolt?

Salamence (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide

A little brute strength to keep my offense and defense balanced. Helps to kill off things here and there. Covers Jirachis weaks.

Gengar (F) @ Leftovers ** Toby
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 68 Spd / 128 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hypnosis/Destiny Bond
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp

Works pretty good, I wish it would do more though. I mean Double Statusing is nice, but i've seen some crazy gengar sets that are pretty cool. Might Try Destiny bond or something

Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 136 Def / 24 Spd / 108 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

Status Absorber and Meta/Swampert/Tar/etc counter.

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 168 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

DDTAR

I tried to make a team so that every member in the team could take hits and still dish them back out and hopefully Set up DDTAR.

Anyways, I know its standard but how can i make the team better? RMT


*
I made another version but i don't really like it but it works better :/:

Snorlax/Celebi/Jirachi/Gyarados/DDTAR/Gengar

This one basically covers the Suicune and Curselax problem i was having in the other team. Using Celerachi feels cheap but winning is what matters i guess.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#2
Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 204 HP / 32 Atk / 56 Def / 216 SDef
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Rest/Self Destruct

I was getting owned by jolteon/zapdos leads so i made snorlax my team leader. Not sure on what to choose for the last move

Boom lax is fun, it can blow up pokemon that counter ddtar too, such as swampert(who comes in on snorlax to test for fireblast) so make sure to watch for that.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 16 Spd / 36 SAtk / 56 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt/Fire Punch
- Wish

Just support for the team, wishes sala and snorlax mainly. Reflect is to help against Swamperts/Metagross/Heracross/TTar mainly. Fire punch or Tbolt?

Standard, you can use fire punch because you have gengar wisping everything anyway, this will help.

Salamence (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide

A little brute strength to keep my offense and defense balanced. Helps to kill off things here and there. Covers Jirachis weaks.

Standard. Meh.

Gengar (F) @ Leftovers ** Toby
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 68 Spd / 128 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hypnosis/Destiny Bond
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp

Works pretty good, I wish it would do more though. I mean Double Statusing is nice, but i've seen some crazy gengar sets that are pretty cool. Might Try Destiny bond or something

I think for a DDTar team you need more things to counter swampert, as he walls everything you have, and kos back. Minus suicune, who can be roared or walled easily. So i would put giga drain over something just to kill swampert if you get the chance.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 136 Def / 24 Spd / 108 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

Status Absorber and Meta/Swampert/Tar/etc counter.

ZZZZzzzzzz.

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 168 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

DDTAR

I tried to make a team so that every member in the team could take hits and still dish them back out and hopefully Set up DDTAR.

Yea, swampert might be an issue as he is only forced out by suicune, and will likely stick around for a while.

Anyways, I know its standard but how can i make the team better? RMT


*
I made another version but i don't really like it but it works better :/:

Snorlax/Celebi/Jirachi/Gyarados/DDTAR/Gengar

This one basically covers the Suicune and Curselax problem i was having in the other team. Using Celerachi feels cheap but winning is what matters i guess.
 

Umby

I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
is a Contributor Alumnus
#3
Well, here's something you might think about:

You could run Ice Punch on Jirachi over Tbolt. It will take care of Dugtrio switch ins and of course Salamence with a Reflect up. Your only trade off is your damage output to bulky waters. Suicune comes to mind. I'd say usually you could just run a high speed Suicune with Roar to solve this, but you lose sleep absorption, and without Spikes, Roar overall isn't that effective. If you could think of a way to solve this without making too many drastic changes, I'd say Ice Punch Jirachi is the way to go.
 
#7
i've changed the team a little after testing a ton of different strategies but still trying to keep the main goal of keeping DDTAR on the team so here is the revised version:

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 204 HP / 96 Atk / 56 Def / 12 SAtk / 140 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Curse
- Flamethrower
- Rest
- Return

the only server alive in netbattle doesn't have selfdestruct lax so i said what the hell and i'm trying this. Not gonna lie, i hate this so i will probably go back to mix lax with counter over selfdestruct.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 36 Spd / 72 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Fire Punch
- Psychic
- Wish

fire punch catches metas on the switch and still hits skarm/forry/maggy, passes wish around to everything

Flygon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 140 HP / 148 Atk / 96 Def / 16 Spd / 12 SAtk / 96 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Rock Slide
- Toxic/HP Bug/Hp Grass/Hp Ice

TTar counter, actually lets that retarded snorlax work sometimes as long as i get rid of their ttar if they have one. I like toxic for 2 reasons: Suicune and Swampert. Though hp bug might be better for Celebi. Hp Ice for other flygons and salamences, HP grass for swampert. I have no idea what to choose help please.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt

Counters a lot of things mainly Gengars and Swamperts/Suicunes. Eats Status. Can someone suggest a better ev spread?

Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 68 Spd / 128 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Destiny Bond
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp

Dbond is awesome and Gengar is my new Favorite pokemon in the world.

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 172 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

2nd favorite poke in the world

Any ways i can improve this more? My goal is to make the BEST ddtar team possible
 
#8
If you are just trying to weaken the opponent enough to set up DDtar, then you could use a lax without Rest. Eq, shadowball, fireblast, return/bodyslam/double edge, curse.....all are good options.

The reflect/wish jirachi is really good. There are many options I would have you consider to use reflect/wish jirachi again.
You could use psychic/thunder, psychic/cm, thunder(bolt)/ice punch, psychic/fire punch.

Flygon would be good as a CB Flygon. You have 3 pokemon with a fire type move. It is more essential in D/P to use fire type moves, but in R/S/E, fire is not needed as much. Dont spread the EVs as much.

I might actually go with a simple EV spread for Zapdos. Something like this:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt

Snorlax is already a good special sponge.

I can understand the WoW in the cause of setting up DDtar, but you may consider Giga drain on gengar for swampert.

Sub on tar protects it, but using HP bug will give you better typing coverage. Its your choice. You may consider a DDtar with Lum Berry as long as you have reflect, wish, and WoW.

Heracross can do some damage to your team if you are not prepared.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#9
The main thing, with TTar as a main sweeper, is to eliminate Swampert/metagross/skarm/claydol etc, and have DDTar come in on a Blissey or Regice(etc), after one of your pokemon feint. You should use Toxic or HP bug and Choice band for Flygon, pick one.
 
#10
you cannot fully utilize ddtar's potential without spikes. the key to using ddtar is to weaken your opponent with spikes, then simply set up and sweep.

with that being said, your team can do absolutely nothing with spikes on the field. sure, every one of your attacks hits spikers, but any decent player will find a way around it.

tips-

get a spiker, rapidspinner, and perhaps a status healer (forgot what the correct term was) because pokemon like weezing will have a blast putting status on you.
 
#11
I generally don't have to kill their swampert/meta/skarm to unleash ddtar. Though claydol definitely makes me want to cry when i see one so i might put in hp bug on ttar.

About the spikes comment 3 of my pokes are immune to it and i don't really see how forry/skarm are going to set up on anything on my team.

I do like the idea of putting spikes on the team, but i hate skarmory and forretress, i tried using cacturne and that was pretty cool. I might try cloyster at least he can explode and not get trapped
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#12
I generally don't have to kill their swampert/meta/skarm to unleash ddtar. Though claydol definitely makes me want to cry when i see one so i might put in hp bug on ttar.

Yes you sort of do, otherwise DDtar cant set up. You dont need to "kill them" but just weaken them enough to sweep. You could put metagross somewhere, maybe over jirachi to get rid of their swampert with explosion, or a barrage of Earthquakes/Mashes. Swampert is definately the biggest threat to DDtar. Claydol also hates Meteor mashes.

About the spikes comment 3 of my pokes are immune to it and i don't really see how forry/skarm are going to set up on anything on my team.

Skarm can come in on rested snorlax..and DDtar to an extent, but thats it. Your snorlax is BAD btw. Fire blast over flamethrower, and Counter works instead of Boom if you want, although on the server im on you can use Boom.

I do like the idea of putting spikes on the team, but i hate skarmory and forretress, i tried using cacturne and that was pretty cool. I might try cloyster at least he can explode and not get trapped

Your gengar is too all out offensive to be blocking rapid spins all the time, one predicted attack of any kind and its toast. Cacturne=Gimmick in OU. Cloyster works though, as you are a little weak on the physical defenses. You could put it in over jirachi or snorlax, or even zapdos. But still, you do not need to turn your team into a spike stall team just because its standard.
you cannot fully utilize ddtar's potential without spikes. the key to using ddtar is to weaken your opponent with spikes, then simply set up and sweep.

Yes you can, its CBtars that force switches and abuse spikes. DDTar doesnt force switches, it tries to set up and sweep. The "key" is to weaken their ttar counter, and then sweep their team.

with that being said, your team can do absolutely nothing with spikes on the field. sure, every one of your attacks hits spikers, but any decent player will find a way around it.

Uhhh...lol at bold. Contradictory much? An offensive team PLAYS offensive, not giving a team the opportunity to Spike, its an option still to add Cloyster or something, but to be honest, it doesnt need it.
tips-

get a spiker, rapidspinner, and perhaps a status healer (forgot what the correct term was) because pokemon like weezing will have a blast putting status on you.

He has an offensive-ish team. What you are telling him to do is "Make your team as standard as possible so that it works", when he built a fairly effective looking Offensive Team. Status is not even remotely a problem either. Look at his Zapdos and Snorlax. Weezing is pretty much set up bait for TTar, even with haze because It cant break TTars sub. Status healer=Cleric btw.
 

Umby

I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
is a Contributor Alumnus
#13
The main thing, with TTar as a main sweeper, is to eliminate Swampert/metagross/claydol etc, and have DDTar come in on a Blissey or Regice(etc), after one of your pokemon feint. You should use Toxic or HP bug and Choice band for Flygon, pick one.
Fixed. See if you can spot it.
 
#15
Yes you can, its CBtars that force switches and abuse spikes. DDTar doesnt force switches, it tries to set up and sweep. The "key" is to weaken their ttar counter, and then sweep their team.
I dont recall any where that I said that he'll be using his ddtar to force switches. You're just rephrasing everything i said in a different way, nice going.
He has an offensive-ish team. What you are telling him to do is "Make your team as standard as possible so that it works", when he built a fairly effective looking Offensive Team. Status is not even remotely a problem either. Look at his Zapdos and Snorlax. Weezing is pretty much set up bait for TTar, even with haze because It cant break TTars sub. Status healer=Cleric btw.
Being standard or not is not the issue here, he wanted to make his team "so that it works" So i provied him advice on how to do so.

Status is not even remotely a problem either. Look at his Zapdos and Snorlax.
How is status not a problem here? If he relys on only on pokemon such as snorlax to absorb status just because it has rest, other player will see it as a opputunity to set up.

Uhhh...lol at bold. Contradictory much? An offensive team PLAYS offensive, not giving a team the opportunity to Spike, its an option still to add Cloyster or something, but to be honest, it doesnt need it.
And that further proves my point, while his "status absorbers" are sleeping, theres a risk that the opponent might set up spikes.
 

Umby

I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
is a Contributor Alumnus
#16
His status absorbers are a Snorlax and a Sleep Talking Zapdos. No Skarmory in their right mind wants to really take a chance on Spiking vs Zapdos, unless they're really in a bind to try and lay down Spikes. Snorlax is Snorlax, and Skarmory would try to setup Spikes on Snorlax in a normal situation anyway.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
#17
I dont recall any where that I said that he'll be using his ddtar to force switches. You're just rephrasing everything i said in a different way, nice going.

But you mentioned "using spikes" to weaken the counters, when it just isnt the case. DDtar works just as well with spikes as without. Spikes are obviously better than nothing, but if a team doesnt have a spiker, it has something else, well it should have something else.

Being standard or not is not the issue here, he wanted to make his team "so that it works" So i provied him advice on how to do so.

Yes, by telling him to make everything standard. You seem to be binding the words "standard" and "team that works", as if they share the same meaning.

How is status not a problem here? If he relys on only on pokemon such as snorlax to absorb status just because it has rest, other player will see it as a opputunity to set up.

lol. So Skarm will come in on a Zapdos and spike? GL during your future battles doing that. Snorlax can have spikes set up on anyway, your opponent predicting a rest, and you predicting a spiker switch in are equal possibilities.

And that further proves my point, while his "status absorbers" are sleeping, theres a risk that the opponent might set up spikes.

read up^
 
#18
The first team was better so I'll critique that one.

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 204 HP / 32 Atk / 56 Def / 216 SDef
Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Rest/Self Destruct

I was getting owned by jolteon/zapdos leads so i made snorlax my team leader. Not sure on what to choose for the last move

Purely a matter of preference, but I'd put your CBmence as your lead with a +speed nature to outspeed and OHKO Zapdos, who I see ~twice as much as Jolteon. Body Slam's para chance doesn't really outweigh the usefulness of Return/Frustration's power. I've gotten SD blocked by Gengar soooooo many times, just use Rest.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 16 Spd / 36 SAtk / 56 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt/Fire Punch
- Wish

Just support for the team, wishes sala and snorlax mainly. Reflect is to help against Swamperts/Metagross/Heracross/TTar mainly. Fire punch or Tbolt?

Fire Punch.

Salamence (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide

A little brute strength to keep my offense and defense balanced. Helps to kill off things here and there. Covers Jirachis weaks.

With a +Speed nature and Aerial Ace instead of HP Flying, you won't ever have to switch away from an HP Ice Zapdos(both Ice and Fly need -1 speed IV). You'll also retain some Satk.

Gengar (F) @ Leftovers ** Toby
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Def / 68 Spd / 128 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hypnosis/Destiny Bond
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp

Works pretty good, I wish it would do more though. I mean Double Statusing is nice, but i've seen some crazy gengar sets that are pretty cool. Might Try Destiny bond or something

Hypnosis is best used to luck your way out of a pinch with Focus Punch, which DB is better at with scouting/prediction. Why that specific amount of HP and Def? Gengar can't really survive much, you have to outspeed the opponent and OHKO or 2HKO to hurt most anything. You don't have one move that can badly hurt Swampert, so maybe Giga Drain in the fourth slot?

Suicune @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 136 Def / 24 Spd / 108 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf

Status Absorber and Meta/Swampert/Tar/etc counter.

You don't have a Hazer/PHazer, so maybe Roar over Sleep Talk? You have enough invested into defense to survive what Meta/Swampert could possibly dish out at you in two turns, barring CHes.

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 168 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

DDTAR

Taunt could also work well to prevent Spikes, Rest, and setup moves. If you replaced Snorlax with Blissey you could even have another offensive move to deal with Flygon and Claydol, like Aerial Ace or HP Bug.
 
#20
Yes, by telling him to make everything standard. You seem to be binding the words "standard" and "team that works", as if they share the same meaning.
And having "standards" is a bad thing? Some pokemon are standards for a reason, and that reason being that they work. If you think using pokemon that arent "Standards" makes you more creative, then I dont know what to say.

ho ho,
not giving a team the opportunity to Spike
Snorlax can have spikes set up on anyway


and....

Contradictory much?
 
#21
Minwu said:
With a +Speed nature and Aerial Ace instead of HP Flying, you won't ever have to switch away from an HP Ice Zapdos(both Ice and Fly need -1 speed IV). You'll also retain some Satk.
That's nonsense. CB Salamence needs a Adamant Nature if it really wants to hit hard. Just use 30 / 30 / 30 / 31 / 30 / 30 and you will have HP Flying with max speed.

Minwu said:
If you replaced Snorlax with Blissey you could even have another offensive move to deal with Flygon and Claydol, like Aerial Ace or HP Bug.
No, as HeYsUp already tried to explain, this is an OFFENSIVE team. Blissey would only slow this team down. Imo he should keep BoomLax (if the server allows it).

Cruiselax said:
And having "standards" is a bad thing? Some pokemon are standards for a reason, and that reason being that they work. If you think using pokemon that arent "Standards" makes you more creative, then I dont know what to say.
Having standards isn't a bad thing at all. Trying to change an Offensive team into a ''standard'' Defensive/Stall teams IS a bad thing.
 
#22
I was merely pointing out that his team would work better with some supporting pokemon along his sweepers. A tropical scenario is that you attack, they wall, you switch, spikes takes your 25%.
 
#23
The gengar EVS allows it to take a dd sala/gyara hp fly and ohko it back. People ALWAYS think they will ohko and they don't so it works. Also lets gengar eat random physical attacks after a willowisp. I don't know i've always used those evs on gengar and i put him on all my teams, works so far.

I also did feel like the team with cune and sala was better. But i had a problem with countering other suicunes. HOwever even with zapdos and boomlax I'm STILL having problems countering suicune. At the very least I know i'm keeping Gengar, Boomlax, and DDTAR. I've also thought about fitting spikes in the team but it would make me use a pokemon that can't really do anything except spike so probably not.