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Postgame Twilight Princess NOC-Postgame

Discussion in 'Circus Maximus' started by shinyskarmory, Sep 16, 2013.


Is there more Smogon mafia in your future?

  1. Yeah, this was a fun game and I'll sign up for some more games.

  2. Yeah, this game sucked but I'll give it another try.

  3. lolnope, terrible game SS

  1. shinyskarmory


    Jul 12, 2011
    Approved by billymills

    So this was my second game as a host, and my first NOC. I can't speak for More Cowbell (he'll speak for himself a bit in this post, and probably some more later), but I feel that my previous effort (PMD mafia) was better balanced, although this game certainly had a closer finish! What made this game less balanced than the previous one were the fairly stacked teams courtesy of random.org (PMD was 90% beginners), the unfortunate priority of LightWolf's safeguard (more on that later), and the way the FoS system ended up being played.

    Inactivity was also a problem in this game. There were a few times when it was excusable, like during the whole DDOS thing there were a few times where the site would come back on for a few hours before promptly going back down, and I can’t hold anyone responsible for that. But for those who were inactive in this game (they know who they are), don’t expect to be able to just do the bare minimum and slip by.

    In terms of Factions, the village played very poorly at the start; I remember looking at who had the most posts at the start and three out of the top five were mafia! The few remaining villagers in the MYLO nights (which began Night 3 instead of Night 4 as we had planned because of the pair of village godkillings) played really well, mostly thanks to the set of reads they inherited from Celever after he godkilled himself. Thanks to their good votes, the Village managed to pull the game to a last day 2v1 LYLO from the 4v3 MYLO they had at the beginning of Day 4. But even with their comeback, some last second shenanigans involving the mafia silence and a Snaquaza vs Metal Sonic LYLO FoS fight sealed the win for the Twilight Horde.

    On the other hand, the Twilight Horde was the clear, deserving winners of this game despite the village’s strong play near the end. They dominated the game for most of its duration because of their experienced players (Aura Guardian and Eagle4 both have quite a few notches on their belts, and Fire Blast was at least in PMD IIRC even if he didn’t have much other experience) and sheer activity. Seriously, these guys were the first and the last to respond to everything, and they were making great posts throughout the game.

    The Masons were the idea this game was originally based around. More Cowbell and I originally intended for the Masons (Obbmud99 and Metal Sonic) to serve as a village replacement for an information role which slowly grew more powerful as it recruited more members of the village, and we intentionally strengthened the mafia to prevent it from being rolled like the mafia was in DLE’s ANOCymous. Unfortunately, Metal Sonic targeted the same player (who was a mafia member) every night even after the repeated failure of his recruit, and afterwards only ended up using it on people who died that night. I certainly wouldn’t do Masons again in a Beginner game, as the two relative newcomers to Smogon mafia made scant use of the quickchat and never abused each other’s cleanness; however, I think it’s definitely a great addition in the hands of experienced players.

    The FoS system was one that I shamelessly copied off of mafiascum.com as a way to both break ties and give players an accurate look at who thought who was scum, since I found that in previous games I would often lose track of players in the shuffle. However, until the last night of the game nothing much was added to the game by the mechanic; it only added more work for More Cowbell and I to do during the day, and god knows we had enough of it to do as is as new-ish hosts. So it ended up being relied upon pretty heavily in the final moments of Twilight Princess Mafia, but that doesn’t mean that I would recommend it for every game in the future. It’s probably better suited for NOC then standard Smogon outside communication mafia.

    I know you’re getting tired of reading my thoughts, so let’s get to the roles and nights!

    Player Discussion (in order of death)

    1. Box - Ooccoo - Vanilla Town - Godkilled and lost Day 1 for violating Rule 1.
    Yeah, this was just a case of not reading the rules and/or getting confused with the last game he was in. It was a little unfair to Box, because Metal Sonic baited him into doing it (as proven by a screenshot he sent me that I don’t have the link to right now). Looking back, I should have godkilled or godsubbed them both, but I didn’t have enough substitutes at this point in the game and godkilling 2 villagers simultaneously, one of whom had a power role, would pretty much completely ruin the balance of the game.

    More Cowbell: Indeed, this was a case of poor rule-reading. A pity, really, as Box seemed quite eager to participate in the game. Role-wise, his godkill wasn’t that much of a problem, but the village can use every active member, and Box was one of the more active players, up to the godkill.

    2. CB Terrakion - Malo - Vanilla Town - Lynched Day 1
    This was a pretty sad lynch. Malo was one of our favorite characters, and we wish he hadn’t gotten offed so soon. CB Terrakion, on the other hand, was one of the last players to confirm on Night 0 and pretty much dug his own grave on Day 1 with a combination of inactivity and his post stating that he “wasn’t feeling any pressure at all”. That was enough for the village, who ended up lynching him with a pretty clear vote of support even though it didn’t quite reach majority.

    More Cowbell: After Metal Sonic quickly appeared to be the player that would be lynched first, the game flipped, and CBTerrakion went down under the pressure of the village. Inactivity also helped in this, as has proven the case in more lynches in this game.

    3. Woodchuck - Postman - Village Tracker - Trampled by Bullbos (killed by Aura Guardian) Night 1
    Woodchuck played a pretty good Day 1, which was probably why he was killed right away. His posting style of short, pithy, but discussion-sparking posts reminded me somewhat of zorbees’ style in Mafia from the Depths. His death was a double whammy for the village since he was one of the more active players as well as having a power role that the village really needed.

    More Cowbell: The mafia was debating killing either Woodchuck, theangryscientist, or Gronkasaurus Rex on Night 1, as those were the ‘guys in the middle’: not overly active, but not that inactive either. They eventually decided on Woodchuck, as he had viewed shinyskarmory’s profile, which could imply that he had sent a night action - which proved right. Woodchuck would have inspected Metal Sonic, hadn’t he been lynched, which would have led to some very interesting mechanics, since Metal Sonic miss-masoned and tried to invite Eagle4 into the Resistance, which would have killed him. Interestingly, other things happened, which we’ll discuss later.

    4.Cereza - Fyer - Vanilla Town - Lynched Day 2
    Cereza was pretty passive throughout the entire game, but judging by her play in PMD mafia as well as her post in Day 2, that’s really just her playstyle. Ended up working against her when she ended up in the hospital for a few days, and came back in time to see herself get lynched with 3 votes in a game with 12 players alive.

    Yeah. Life sucks.

    More Cowbell: The “Life sucks” flavour in Cereza’s role PM turned out fairly accurate, sadly; her being hospitalized, and the inactivity that followed, led her to be Day 2’s prime target.

    5. Gronkasaurus Rex - Ilia - Vanilla Town - Sliced to pieces (killed by Eagle4) Night 2
    Pretty much what More Cowbell said; he was pretty active compared to the rest of the village and his reads were usually right, which is why the mafia offed him early on.

    More Cowbell: Gronkasaurus Rex had been playing a very decent game, until the mafia decided to off him. Even thought Gronk was not that active, the posts that he made were lengthy and full of analysis, though he rarely voted the right people (then again, who really suspected Aura Guardian, Fire Blast/Snaquaza and Eagle4 during the first few days?).

    6. theangryscientist meowmixx - Yeto - Vanilla Town - Lynched Day 3
    shinyskarmory: theangryscientist being subbed out really hurt this game. Even though his posts were pretty lame he WAS one of the more active players, and losing him hurt the village a lot.

    More Cowbell: theangryscientist had been playing a rather unremarkable game; decently active, but not overly so, with average posts. Subbing always remains a problem, and we could very well see that when Meowmixx subbed in for theangryscientist. He was quickly being called scummy, then Metal Sonic was being called scummy, and then Meowmixx went back into lynch speculation. It didn’t end pretty.

    7. Obbmud99-Auru-Mason Member-Sucked into the Twilight Night 3.
    Making the masons unable to declare their masonhood was designed to prevent the village gaining too many cleans, which was based on the real-life idea of Masons back before this game was specifically Twilight Princess themed. I also felt that the village getting too many cleans was a problem in ANOCymous, and I wanted to curtail that here. Post-mortem, I feel that this backfired, partly because the chat was so scantly used, partly because the head mason (Metal Sonic) was hooked every single night, and partly because being able to claim is one of the main powers of a mason.

    Obbmud was reasonably active and his reads just before he died were pretty spot on (which lead to him being offed by the mafia). Unfortunately, his use of the secret mason chat was pretty abysmal; there are only 14 or 15 posts in the chat, and he and Metal Sonic never really used the role to its potential.

    8. citro celever acklow celever-Midna-Town Convict (retroactively changed to Neutral Survivor)-Godkilled Day 4 for posting while silenced
    Because this slot had to be pretty much continuously subbed, I’m going to call it Midna to save time. Midna had an alright early game despite the subbing, remaining active enough to avoid suspicion. Mid-game the role became one of the most trusted members of the village thanks to Acklow’s fairly good posts, which lead to the silence on Night 3. Celever then made one of the best plays of the game, breaking silence to give the village a long list of reads that saved the game from the depths of MYLO for the village.

    Also, was his godkill post on Day 4 a variant of a FUCK TIGER or is it not close enough to share the name?

    9: Eagle4-Ganondorf-Twilight Role Inspector-Lynched Day 4
    The first victim of celever’s day 4 godkill post. Was fairly active both in the game chat and in the scumchat, although for the most part Aura Guardian ran the Twilight Horde with an iron grip. Most of his inspections failed to hit power roles, but luckily the village’s power roles didn’t play TOO well.

    10. LightWolf-Zelda-Town Safeguard-Trampled by Bullbos Night 4
    Here, I’d like to apologize to LightWolf for how royally I screwed him over (unintentionally). The Safeguard was put in to deal with the 3 mafia power roles, an extremely powerful mafia for a NOC game. Unfortunately, the safeguard had a lower priority then the hooker (entirely my fault, I copied the priorities off a template from mafiascum.com), which lead to the safeguard being pretty much useless for any use LightWolf had in mind for it.

    I also didn’t intend for LightWolf to get the role he had joked about lynching on Day 1, but such is the magic of random.org.

    11. Aura Guardian-King Bulbin-Mafia Role Blocker-Lynched Day 5
    Aura Guardian for mafia MVP. He took the reins day 1 and didn’t let go until his death, giving the mafia a much needed purpose in a rather directionless game. Was also THE most active player in the game in terms of posting, which should have put people on to him in a game where multiple inactives were lynched, only to come up village.

    12. Blackhawk11-Link-Vanilla Town-Sucked into the Twilight Night 5
    Giving Link no power role is a little bastardly, but not as bad as giving Zelda a safeguard that doesn’t do anything due to priority. Sorry LightWolf :>

    Blackhawk11 was one of the best villagers; he was one of the more active villagers, and although his reads weren’t perfect they were good enough to get by and get him killed with the last mafia kill of the game.

    13. Yoshinite-Jovani-Golden Town-Lynched Day 6
    Yoshinite’s play was alright but nothing special; he seemed content to stay on the sidelines for the most part, throwing his vote wherever he felt it was needed. He got screwed on the last day, being lynched when he had no ability to post.

    14. Fire Blast Snaquaza-Zant-Twilight Silencer-Won Day 6
    When Fire Blast played, he had alright activity and didn’t really draw attention to himself while he followed Aura Guardian’s orders. After he vanished mysteriously, he was subbed out for Snaquaza for the crucial final days. Snaquaza played fairly well, albeit with a lot of double and triple posts that were 1 or 2 sentences long. He won on the final day thanks to some good WIFOM involving accusing Yoshinite of silencing himself, after realizing too late that HE could have silenced himself (cry “broken” all you want but it wasn’t against the rules of the role).

    15. Metal Sonic-Telma-Weak Hyrule Mason Leader-Endgame’d Day 6
    Metal Sonic was saved by the fact that he was hooked every night targeting a player who would have resulted in his death. However, that doesn’t excuse his poor posts, little use of the Mason chat, and attempt to use Box’s vote on the final day (which was really rubbing salt in the wound considering that he GOT BOX GODKILLED IN THE FIRST PLACE).

    Another side note: I should have godkilled Metal Sonic on day 1 along with Box because he pretty much baited Box into c/ping his role PM and sending it to him, but I was afraid that godkilling the Mason leader and another Vanilla on day 1 would have ruined the game and spelled death for the Village.

    Night Actions

    Night 0: Everyone confirms, some do it faster than others. Aura Guardian, Fire Blast, LightWolf, theangryscientist, and Woodchuck get the distinction of being the only people to actually read the rules.

    Night 1:

    Aura Guardian kidnaps Metal Sonic
    LightWolf chooses not to protect another player with the Triforce of Wisdom
    Fire Blast chooses not to engulf anyone in twilight
    The mafia send Aura Guardian to kill Woodchuck
    Metal Sonic invites Eagle4 to his bar, but fails because Aura Guardian kidnaps him. Also prevents him from dying due to targeting a mafia member.
    Eagle4 uses the Triforce of Power to find out Blackhawk11’s ability (vanilla).
    Woodchuck tracks Metal Sonic but is killed by Aura Guardian first, preventing him from getting results.
    All other players do not have night actions and idle.

    More Cowbell: A very interesting series of events here: we got Metal Sonic’s action in first, stating that he wanted to recruit Eagle4 into the Resistance. This miss-mason would lead to Metal Sonic being killed by Eagle4. Woodchuck would’ve found out about that, as he inspected Metal Sonic: combined with the mason mechanics, that would mean Woodchuck would get an indication that Eagle4 visited Metal Sonic, which would mean Woodchuck could expose Eagle4 as mafia.

    Things turned out differently, though: Aura Guardian killed Woodchuck before he could inspect, saving Eagle4’s position. More interesting, perhaps, is how Aura Guardian actually saved Metal Sonic’s life by kidnapping him for the night, preventing him from wrongly inviting Eagle4. The mafia could have gotten two kills here, but Metal Sonic got lucky, giving him another day to live.

    Fire Blast does not yet silence someone, as the mafia wanted to keep that ability hidden from the village until later in the game. As of Day 1, the silence wasn’t even that useful, as all the village was doing, was accusing other villagers: all three mafia players only got three votes on them during the day, in total.

    Night 2:

    Aura Guardian kidnaps Metal Sonic
    LightWolf chooses not to protect someone with the Triforce of Wisdom
    Fire Blast chooses not to engulf anyone in twilight
    The mafia send Eagle4 to kill Gronkasaurus Rex
    Metal Sonic invites Eagle4 to his bar, but is kidnapped first.
    Eagle4 inspects Meowmixx
    All other players idle.

    This was an key night because it came off of a three villager death streak. Metal Sonic kept trying to recruit Eagle4 even after getting rejected the first time (you’d think eventually he’d begin to suspect some auto-hook mechanism but it never happened). Otherwise, nothing outside the status quo happened.

    Night 3:

    Aura Guardian kidnaps Metal Sonic
    LightWolf protects Metal Sonic with the Triforce of Wisdom
    Fire Blast engulfs Celever in twilight
    The mafia send Fire Blast to kill Obbmud99
    Metal Sonic invites Eagle4 to his bar, but is kidnapped first
    Eagle4 inspects LightWolf
    All other players idle.

    This night showcased the unfortunate nature of LightWolf’s priority, and the night before a MYLO scenario as well! Putting it nicely, LightWolf got sick of MS claiming that he got hooked and decided to call him on his shit by safeguarding him, only for us hosts to realize that LightWolf had lower priority then Aura Guardian, so Aura Guardian’s hooks were guaranteed. Meanwhile, the active Midna Celever got silenced while the mafia eviscerated Obbmud99 for knowing too much.

    Night 4:

    Aura Guardian kidnaps LightWolf
    LightWolf protects Metal Sonic with the Triforce of Wisdom
    Fire Blast engulfs Blackhawk11 in twilight
    The mafia send Aura Guardian to kill LightWolf
    Metal Sonic invites Lightwolf to his bar
    All other players idle.

    Another MYLO night, this time following Celever’s self-godkilling. The mafia pulls out all the stops here, trying to secure a win for themselves on the last day as the villagers commence their witch hunt for the mafia groups. Finally, four nights in, Metal Sonic tried to switch targets to LightWolf, only for his intended target to be killed by the mafia as he recruited.

    Night 5:

    Snaquaza engulfs Yoshinite in twilight
    The mafia send Snaquaza to kill Blackhawk11
    Metal Sonic invites Blackhawk11 to his bar.
    All other players idle.

    Last night of the game. Snaquaza made the blunder (from my point of view) of silencing Yoshinite instead of himself (which he WAS NEVER SPECIFICALLY DISALLOWED FROM DOING). Metal Sonic had a chance to close the game here with a good recruit, but got unlucky on his 50% chance with another recruit who was killed the same night.

    Well, that’s it for Twilight Princess mafia! I’ve got another game I’m hosting solo that’s coming up soon that’ll be Standard OC, so feel free to sign up for that when it comes up. In the meantime, thanks for playing! I’ll leave you with this:

    -activity wins games
    -random.org is bullshit
    -if metal sonic asks you for your role PM, just say no
    Celever likes this.
  2. Yeti

    Yeti queen of unclesam's village
    is a Community Contributor

    May 8, 2009
    Was Box a mason? Presuming that as this was a NOC, any contact off the mason/mafia chat is a godkill, and I assume it's likely it was against the rules to paste role PMs as that's a common rule in NOCs, both should have 100% been godkilled, irrelevant of the consequences to the village's chances. No excuse for rule violations except for legitimate newbies who may be confused and send their PMs n0 to non-players *looks at houndoomsday* but that sounds like blatant disregard for the rules instead of confusion.
    Houndoomsday likes this.
  3. shinyskarmory


    Jul 12, 2011
    Nope, Box was a vanillager who messaged Metal Sonic asking to swap role PMs, and Metal Sonic replied with something along the lines of "you first". I have an image of it somewhere but I don't know where it is.
  4. jumpluff

    jumpluff じゃまた!
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 22, 2008
    Metal Sonic was silly to reply at all and should've just sent you the screenshot, but Box was really at fault there. The way you phrased it in the postgame made it sound like Metal Sonic tricked him into doing it or something, in which case I probably would've godsubbed Metal Sonic if you had a sub and reprimanded Box (or looked for a sub for him too), but Box initiated the conversation and sent the role PM without being coerced. His own fault for not reading the rules. I was sympathetic since I think Box is newish but when you explained what happened it's just unambiguously his fault

    I don't like godkills though because, yeah, they mess up the balance of the game. The other reason is that nearly every rule violation comes from someone who doesn't know better, not someone who outright intended to cheat -- their fault for not checking the rules, but it fucks their noncomplicit team over. Finding subs is hard but it can neutralise the situation in a way godkills don't really
  5. Celever


    Sep 25, 2012
    Very good read!

    Also for the record Midna wasn't subbed a lot, I subbed in for Citro pre-game (night 0 technically) as he didn't confirm and from there I just let Acklow sub in for me while I went camping for 10 days, coming back and getting subbed back in... and then getting silenced. ;-;

    As for the things you think you did wrong, shinyskarm, I would disagree on the masons. The masons are a good idea in my opinion, it was just the way it was used that was bad. If, say, Lightwolf and Aura Guardian ended up being the two masons that role would have been amazing. Kinda split views on whether stopping them claiming or not was bad or not... but I don't think it effected the game that much. They hinted strongly at it and some people (I don't remember who, Eagle4 I think) challenged him on it.
  6. Aura Guardian

    Aura Guardian

    Dec 25, 2009
    GG everyone! I was a bit worried when Snaquaza voted me, because it was sort of a coin flip who would win, down from the 75% chance of voting WITH me. Also, perhaps I did grab the reigns a bit too hard - I should have maybe let some of my allies come up with stuff, then critiqued. But hey, it worked.

    Congrats to LW for noticing I was behind saving the silence for the end. Heh. Also, can't believe I got by for the most part by calling attention to MY OWN SCUMMINESS. Wow, that was hilarious, until I was found out.

    Speaking as 1/3 of the mafia, I would not have minded: Box and MS both godkilled for that (MS for responding at all, and encouraging), there being no lynch that cycle, there being no KILL that cycle, and masons getting an auto-recruit of one vanilla. That would have impacted the balance... only minimally (re: day effectively JUST a mislynch). But, their solution also worked.

    (also, you posted the Zant PM twice, you should fix that with MS's real PM)
  7. Acklow

    Acklow I am always tired. Don't bother me.

    Jan 7, 2010
    Just commenting to say that I played shit.
  8. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck actual cannibal
    is a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 25, 2010
    Metal Sonic did post "contact me" prior to Box PMing him. Is that baiting?
  9. Celever


    Sep 25, 2012
    Casually pointing out that I was against Aura Guardian the majority of this game! ~~
  10. More Cowbell

    More Cowbell

    Mar 23, 2010
    Hiya fellows,

    Sorry for being extremely late to the party, but I haven't been able to do much outside of university and everything for the past two months or so. Thanks to everyone for making my first hosting experience a very enjoyable one, and many thanks to shinyskarmory to actually finishing the postgame, while I couldn't. From this point out I'll be trying to be more active around Smogon again, so I hope to see some of you around Circus Maximus some time again!
    Celever likes this.
  11. MeowMiXXX


    Aug 26, 2012
    noc silencers are dumb
  12. Aura Guardian

    Aura Guardian

    Dec 25, 2009
    The silence was publically announced though, which counterbalanced it.
  13. Celever


    Sep 25, 2012

    (also Yoshinite but he lurked anyway)
  14. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic Resurgence
    is a Tutoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 14, 2012
    hey I'm late to the party too!

    yeah noc silencers can be allowed, provided that the silenced user can vote. yeah they need a vote; they could have pmed it to the host

    also wow my play last time really was shit ooops

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