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Twin Cores (Peaked #25 on the pokemon online server)

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by shnen, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. shnen

    shnen שוני
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Hey there! After joining Pokemon Online near the end of 4th gen and playing for a while, I took a long break (mainly because I could not play it on my old mac at the time, and so had to steal my brothers laptop, which is easier said than done!).
    I came back around mid July, when I realised that there was now a version of Pokemon Online which worked on my mac :D. Of course, as most n00bs do, I jumped head first into playing OU without a proper understanding of the metagame. After a while, I realised that I was kind of failing, and so I decided turned my hand to UU. Originally, the team was based around a SD Lucario sweep (who was DW UU at the time, PO tiers are crazy), but then he got banned, and I made quite a lot of change of changes to the team. Eventually, I ended up with only 2 of the original Pokemon left standing. Now I consider it to have two cores (hence the name), a defensive core made up of Roserade, Donphan, Spiritomb, and Suicune, and an offensive/scouting core comprised of Scyther and Rotom-H. It has worked well for me so far, but I am open to any suggestions you may have. I have grown quite fond of this team, even beating the #1 plater on the PO ladder!
    Team at a glance:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Teambuilding Process:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    This was based around stalling the opponent with Roserade’s spikes and Roarcune, then cleaning up with either Swellow or Luke (mainly Luke). Dusclops and Clefable were more afterthoughts that I had put onto the team as generic walls to form a strong defensive backbone.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    As I stated earlier, Lucario got moved up from DW UU, and so I hastily replaced him with agiligross, another deadly Steel-type set up sweeper. Dusclops never really did anything for me, and at the time I had read some articles about how Xatu was very good, so I deceided to give him a twirl.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG]
    For whatever reason, Metagross wasn’t working very well for me and after I heard about how Scyther had the same BST total as his big stong brother Scizor, I decided to him in. I chose to give him a Choice Band as Choiced Scyther is the only way to go in my opinion and Scarf Scyther is too weak for my liking; Scyther has a decent amount of Speed without Choice Scarf anyway. Scyther also matched up well with Xatu, who kept the Stealth Rock that Scyther loathes so much off the field.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG]
    Xatu wasn't really cutting it and also gave me a huge weakness to Electric-type attacks, so I decided that a Ground-type spinner would be the best fit, preferrably one that could lay down Stealth Rock of my own. It was then a toss-up between Donphan, Claydol, and Sandslash. Donphan arguably outclasses both of them due to his fantastic physical bulk and lovely Attack, so he was the one to step up for the job.
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    Clefable never really did much for me at all, and I must confess I am surprised it took me that long to replace him. I had heard the hype about how bulky Porygon2 was with eviolite, so I decided to give him a go. He worked somewhat, but I soon realised that he was just too much off a sitting duck (or whatever the hell he is) for my liking.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    I already had both a Water-type and a Grass-type, and I had no Fire moves, so adding in a Fire-type to create the fabled FWGcore seemed like a good move. I wanted someone defensive, so I went for bulky Arcanine.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    And here we are. Arcanine didn’t work for me, and I noticed that
    A. I had no electric moves and
    B. I lacked a scarfed revenge-killer (although Swellow worked as a makeshift revenge-killer, as long as his Flame Orb had previously been activated). I wanted to keep my FWG core, so My options were Scarf Victini with Fusion Bolt, or Scarf Rotom-h, and the toasters Electric STAB and access to Trick to annoy enemy walls worn me over.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
    After posting this very thread, a very helpful user named badabing suggested that i try out Spiritomb over Swellow. This provided me with a spin blocker, as well as an amazing Alakazam counter as they are cropping up everywhere with the release of Magic Guard.


    [​IMG]
    Roserade (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Rest
    - Sludge Bomb

    I admit that this set was pinched wholesale from the analysis, but it is working very well for me. I originally ran Aromatherapy over rest, but I missed the recovery as I need Rade to be at full health often, as he is one of my only answers to bulky waters, and so needs to switch in a lot to them, and eating ice beams on the switch can be disastrous. Giga Drain helps with recovery, and tbh Roserade doesn’t really have any better options for grass STAB apart from leaf storm, which lacks the useful recovery and doesn’t really fit on a defensive roserade. Sludge bomb is for reliable STAB to do reasonable damage to the pokes that don’t resist it, as well as having a nice chance to poison. Banded Mamoswines ice shard does not 1hko with the given evs, while giga drain does and regains most of the hp back, a trick that I particularly like to see being carried out, as many do stay in to shard me, under the illusion that it will kill, especially with it being on Rades weaker defence.
    Changes I’m considering:
    I could possibly try to fit Toxic Spikes on there as well for added annoyance and ease of wearing down, but I don't think this is needed.
    Type Synergy:
    Fire-> Suicune, Rotom-H
    Ice-> Ditto
    Flying-> Rotom-H
    Psychic-> Spiritomb
    [​IMG]
    Spiritomb (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Pain Split
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sucker Punch

    Spiritomb is the latest addition to my team, taking the place of Swellow. He is an important part of my team, blocking spins, and makes it somewhat more defensive. The EV spread allows him to be an efficient mixed wall, as well as giving me a crucial Alakazam counter. Sucker Punch gives me decently strong priority to take out frail threats, whilst Shadow Ball gives me a reliable STAB move when I don't think the opponent will attack.
    Changes I'm considering:
    I have also tested Shedinja over him, which worked ok, but it is far too unreliable.
    Type synergy:
    Lol.
    [​IMG]
    Donphan (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 144 Atk / 96 Def / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Head Smash
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake

    Donphan is in my opinion the best spinner in the UU tier, which explains why he is currently residing at the top of the usage statistics. The EVs allow him to take most hits like a Don (geddit? DONphan?), while the Attack EVs guarantee an OHKO on 4/0 Mismagius. The Speed EVs are speed creep on other base 50s, as well as Pokemon such as Rhyperior who aim to outspeed low speed Donphan by 1 point. Stealth Rock is practically required on any team to combat threats such as Rotom-H and Yanmegaand. Rapid Spin is required for my team with both of my scouters being weak to Stealth Rock, and is Donphan's main selling point. Quite frankly, running Donphan without Rapid Spin is just plain silly. Earthquake is for reliable STAB, while Head Smash lets me hit Flying-types, as well as Pokemon with the ability Levitate such as Mismagius and Rotom-H
    Changes I’m Considering:
    Fitting Ice Shard on the set to gain coverage on Flygon, probably over Head Smash.
    Type Synergy:
    Water-> Suicune
    Grass-> Roserade, Scyther, Rotom-H
    Ice-> Suicune, Roserade

    [​IMG]
    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Scald
    - Sleep Talk
    - Roar

    Ah… Roarcune how I love thee. I don’t care what people say about Milotic being better than you, I still love you! In all seriousness, one of the main reasons I am using Suicune is his much higher Defense stat, as well as not relying on Marvel Scale. He can also phaze away subs, which is immensely useful, as well as being able to bluff a CM set. Scald>Surf for that lovely 30% burn chance, letting him potentially cripple physical attackers, and he does not miss the power much. Rest and Sleep Talk are his only means of recovery, and Sleep Talk works well with the other two moves, each letting him cripple someone (either through hazards or through burn). So far he has served me brilliantly, and has remained in this team all the way from the start!
    Changes I’m Considering:
    Sadly, I am considering Milotic in its place.
    Type Synergy:
    Grass-> Roserade, Scyther, Rotom-H
    Electric-> Donphan, Rotom-H, Roserade
    [​IMG]
    Scyther (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 4 Def /252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Aerial Ace
    - Brick Break
    - Quick Attack


    This is THE beast. He has won me many a match, and can strike fear into most Pokemon with his super high Attack with Choice band equipped , in addition to his very ample Speed. Scyther's main roles are to scout and tear holes in the early game, and then demolish the opponent’s team once they have been weakened sufficiently late game. Originally I had Bug Bite over Brick Break, but it was fairly redundant as I had U-turn if I absolutely needed to hit Dark/Psychics for super effective damage, and Brick Break prevents Scyther from being walled by Rock- and Steel-Types. Jolly is needed unfortunately to speed tie with Mismagius.
    Changes I'm considering:
    none.
    Type Synergy:
    Fire-> Rotom-H, Suicune
    Electric-> Donphan, Rotom-H, Roserade
    Ice-> Suicune, Rotom-H
    Flying-> Rotom-H
    Rock-> Donphan
    And finally:
    [​IMG]
    Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd/4 SpD
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Overheat
    - Volt Switch
    - Trick
    - Thunderbolt

    I needed some sort of a scarfer, to allow me to revenge threats. I also lacked both Fire- and Electric-type moves, so as Rotom-H got STAB on both of them, I decided to give him the nod. Rotom-H is in my opinion the best scarfer in UU, with access to scouting via Volt Switch, as well as Trick to (hopefully) cripple a pokemon by giving them a Choice Scarf that they do not want. I particularly like giving Eviolite abusers such as Porygon 2 and Chansey Scarfs, and then taking away the switch in’s (or doing it later in the battle) item and giving them a worthless Eviolite in exchange. Timid is to outrun as much as possible, and also to retain some Speed after Tricking away my Choice Scarf. Overheat is a very powerful move on him, 210 BP off of 309 Sp Atk brings the hurt on many things, as well as scaring those weak to it away, allowing me to keep momentum by Volt Switching. It also does heavy damage to Donphan on the switch, doing 77.3% - 91.4% to the standard 252 Atk 252 HP Donphan. Volt Switch allows Rotom to be part of my elite scouting core, normally allowing me to keep hold of the momentum throughout the early game. I originally ran Hidden Power Ice over Thunderbolt, but I have now changed it as I never used it; Pokemon 4x weak to it are few and far between in UU, while Thunderbolt allows me to deal much more damage to Pokemon such as Milotic and Slowbro, as well as being a great move to clean up with late game. As with Scyther, the remaining 4 EVs are placed in Spd instead of HP to allow him to switch into SR one more time. He is the last component of my FWG core, and is quite often used as an offensive pivot, coming in on one of his numerous resistances, and then using the appropriate move.
    Changes I’m considering:
    None.
    Type Synergy:
    Rock-> Donphan
    Water-> Roserade, Suicune

    Importable (open)
    Roserade (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 132 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Rest
    - Sludge Bomb

    Spiritomb (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 SDef
    Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Pain Split
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Sucker Punch

    Donphan (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 144 Atk / 96 Def / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Rapid Spin
    - Head Smash
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Scald
    - Sleep Talk
    - Roar

    Scyther (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Aerial Ace
    - Brick Break
    - Quick Attack

    Rotom-H @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Overheat
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Trick

    Well that’s it, please give me suggestions for how I can improve this, thanks for reading, and I hope you decide to rate this team!:toast:
  2. shnen

    shnen שוני
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  3. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    hey shnen,

    this looks like a good balance team with a solid fwg core. first off, change aromatherapy for rest on roserade. rose is your main answer to bulky waters (suicune loses can't damage efficiently, rotom eats scald) so you're going to want to give him recovery in case he has to take a couple of ice beams on the switch. also aromatherapy seems a bit counter-productive with swellow because you will be deactivating guts for an extra turn. even though im suggesting a replacement for swellow, rest is a great move on that set imo because it allows you to play him a lot more aggressively and then just heal up to full.

    next, i think your team would really benefit from a spinblocker to keep up those hazards, so i recommend you try spiritomb over swellow, which also gives you a decent switch in for Alakazam:

    Spiritomb @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 SpDef
    Sassy Nature (+SpDef, -Spd)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Pursuit
    - Pain Split

    it looks like defensive zapdos could give your team headaches so try a slightly more offensive donphan using head smash over ice shard and heysup's spread, 252 HP / 144 Atk / 96 Def / 16 Spd with an adamant nature. basic strategy is to head smash against zapdos until you can bait him into roosting and then eq for the ko. a little more pop on donphan's attacks can also be helpful in catching opposing ghosts on the switch and opening up a window to get off that crucial rapid spin.

    on a minor note, try a bulkier spread of 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Spd on suicune so he can handle things like darmanitan and ddkingdra easier because atm they are quite threatening to your team.

    finally, a late game sweeping move like thunderbolt could be really effective on your scarf rotom with spikes support so I'd be tempted to give it a test over HP Ice.

    aight gl man and congratz on the ranking
  4. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Thanks for the rate :)
    I will test out rest over aromatherapy , your right I do often have trouble with bulky waters (i.e. Milotic) so i usually rely on taking them out with swellow during his "mini sweep" (which he gets about 66% of the time if i bring him in on something weak enough to be revenge killed by un-boosted BB. However, I am definitely going to strongly consider tomb over swellow, as for a long time I have thinking of putting a spinblocker in my team, and as i have stated in the rmt, swellow is the poke I am looking to replace, and i tryed out subcm missy, but it didn't gel very well, so after that I just left the idea for a while. Spiritomb also retains the ability to counter alakazam, which is always useful as since magic guard has been released, they have been all over the ladder. Again, Dos does give me problems, and again I rely on swellow to facade him too hell, I remember one game where I was swept by one who came in on my Rotom's Trick, taking the scarf, and then sweeping me with T-Bolt after donphans death. As I am going to be testing out Tomb, i now need someone to take Dos out, so if my testing of tomb goes well, then I will replace the donphan set with the one you suggested. I rarely see DDkingdra, yes the suggested EVs seem good, as he is my main mixed wall, and max HP lets him wall things generally in better, as well as taking physical hits much better. Also, should i use Milotic over cune? Yes, T-bolt was my main thought of what to repalce HP ice with, but i was just wondering if there was anything I was overlooking. As you have not pointed anything out, i will probably go with T-Bolt. Off to pokemon online for testing!
    Oh and out of interest what are the 16 spd EVs on Donphan for, and the 8 Spd on Cune?
  5. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

    Joined:
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    hope your testing is going well!

    you can definitely test milotic over suicune. milotic takes on special attackers easier, has steadier recovery, and doesn't come with suicune's vulnerability while resting. i think suicune is fine on this team because he has better physical bulk, a more reliable phazing move to abuse spikes, and the spiritomb i recommended already lessens the pressure from special attackers.

    the 16 speed EVs on donphan are mainly for creeping on other donphan, chansey, and especially rhyperior that aim to outspeed min donphan. the 8 EVs on cune are pretty situational tbh, they allow you to roar first in a mirror match while resting. feel free to just max his defenses and allocate the extra point to spdef.

    the trade off for running tbolt on rotom over hp ice is the loss of coverage on flygon but i feel like your team handles him well enough and overheat will do acceptable damage on the switch. scarf rotom with your team support is begging for a move to sweep with so i thought it would be a good fit. you can even try it over volt switch, though i didn't want to tamper too much with your original idea of a scouting core and you would then lose the switch momentum option.

    gl and message me if you have anymore questions
  6. Yeah Galo Sengan

    Yeah Galo Sengan

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    sleep talk + dragon tail milotic is an absolute beast, used alongside a reliable spinblocker like mismagius/spiritomb. worth a try if you find suicune underperforming.

    Milotic @Leftovers
    Calm, 252 HP / 192 Def / 56 SpD / 8 Spe
    ~ Rest
    ~ Sleep Talk
    ~ Scald
    ~ Dragon Tail
  7. shnen

    shnen שוני
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    No, I am going to keep suicune, as he has consistently been the best performer on my team, and as badabing said, cunes physical defense is much higher, and does not rely on resting for marvel scale. Also, I have used Milotic before in other teams, and I found him as too predictable. I like cunes ability to phaze away subs much better then milotics ability to do a tiny amount of damage, and to occasionally miss. I am going to test milotic out eventually though, as it has been something that i have been thinking over for a long time, but for now Cune is staying. Thanks for the rate though!
  8. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Ok, I am now doing all of the changes suggested by badabing after siginificant testing(although i do miss swellow), and I am now quite high on the dw uu ladder :) However, I added sunny day over shadow ball on tomb, as I have quite a lot of trouble against hail/sandstorm teams, and when they see that I have no instaweather, they play recklessy with hippo/aboma, and i found shadow ball uneeded. Thanks again badabing :)
    I will update the rmt tomorrow with the changes I have made
  9. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    if you wanna test a bit more, you could keep the original swellow and try a regular rotom, which can spinblock and threaten bulky waters with stab electric, over your current rotom-h. the set would look like:

    Rotom @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Volt Switch
    - Will-o-Wisp / Thunderbolt
    - Trick

    will-o is often used so he isn't pursuit bait for krookodile, but if krook isn't getting much usage where you play, he's probably better off running tbolt for increased damage output on calm milotic that also doesn't force you to switch.

    i think this change allows your team to stay offensively focused by retaining swellow's wallbreaking, while the spiritomb suggestion gives you a more solid defensive core, particularly against things like lo alakazam and specs chandelure. up to the kind of playstyle you want to pursue imo.

    EDIT: got another idea, you could try PURSUIT over quick attack/u-turn on swellow. that way you can trap alakazam and even a weakened chandelure rather than ending up saccing a teammate every time they come in on one of your walls (without spiritomb). i think this would be a really efficient change to the original team, still giving you a very potent offense! so in summary try scarf rotom over rotom-h and pursuit over whichever move you feel is most filler on swellow (i'm leaning towards quick attack since you have cb quick attack on scyther and a scarfed revenger already). GL bro

    EDIT @ below: aight man that's cool. tomb is a great mon and like i said it's up to the playstyle you want use. btw sunny day is a really cool idea on it!
  10. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    I must say that I really do like tomb, as it makes the team much more stally, and I do quite like playing stall. I think that I will stick with tomb, as I do want to keep my Rotom-H, as I have no fire moves if I take it off, something that gave me trouble before I added him. Thanks for the suggestion, and I might reconsider in the morning ;)
  11. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Ah, just saw your edit, and that does sound quite good if I decide to keep swellow, but as I stated I am leaning towards tomb, but this does give me more to test, and I think I will try these out, althoguh as I am playing on the pokemon online server, where chadelure is still ou, I do not think that pursuit is needed, as swellow outspeeds and 1hkos alakazam with brave bird even if guts has not activated, and if I think he will switch then I will U turn, which still does a lot to alakazam is he stays in, and I think it OhKOS if guts is activated. However, if I go with tomb, then alakazam is easily handled, and as I stated chandy is not uu, so I don't think that pursuit will be nessacry. I also need quick attack as a fall back option, as If they have boosted their speed too much, then I would much rather bring swellow in then scyhter, as A. He will not take as much damage if stealth rock is up and B.he will not be locked into quick attack, which means that scyhter would probably have to switch out after nabbing the kill. Thank you for all your help so far, and I will definitely think about normal Rotom over his fiery cousin, but I will most likely not use pursuit for the reasons stated in t his post.
  12. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

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    Yes, I can see the advantages of having quick attack on swellow. Pursuit would be used on swellow so that you can TRAP alakazam, ensuring that it kills only one mon at the most. Swellow's STAB attacks are much more powerful than pursuit but when you use those attacks to threaten something frail out (like Alakazam), pursuit allows you to trap them and ko them even if they want to switch. On the original team without spiritomb, Alakazam can come in on Roserade and donphan and just hit and run mercilessly, that is why there is merit in being able to have a guaranteed revenge kill on it with pursuit. Also you can give up u-turn instead for pursuit if you are set on quick attack. Im sorry that I keep flooding your rmt, I just want to give you some options and the second rate would let you stay more offensive. Gl and I'd appreciate it if you tested both and see which best fits your playstyle.
  13. podscile

    podscile

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    thank you for good post!))
  14. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Hmm, you do give quite a good argument for pursuit, as alakazam is fairly common nowadays. I will probably test quite a lot of things out, as my team is now at a transition point where it could either go to stall, or become more offensive. I will do even more testing tomorrow, including rotom and pursuit swellow as you said, and I will see which I prefer, although at the moment I am leaning towards stall. Thank you so much for all the help you have given me, I feel that you have helped to make it quite a bit better, and I will let you know what I decide to do in the end.
  15. shnen

    shnen שוני
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    Bump, thread has been inactive for a while, and I have made a big change, so looking for some feedback.

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