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Type Chart Swap

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Anty, May 1, 2013.

  1. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Bug looks like an amazing attacking type;

    Too bad it is resisted by Grass, the game's premier defensive type (grass is the new Steel, lol)
  2. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Finish him!
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    Rapid Spinners that resist Rock
    Cryogonal (Levitates over Spikes, too)
    Torkoal
    Cloyster
    Armaldo

    No weaknesses:
    All Normal-types (So Chansey/Blissey don't die...)
    Jynx
    Girafarig
    Any more?

    Articuno = hella beast
    Cradily only weak to Electric
    Poor Crobat 4x weak to Grass, Bug, Fighting now
  3. Menace13

    Menace13

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    First of all, I must agree with nyph, except for the Normal part. I think everything should be exactly swapped.

    To be honest, I just thought up this exact same idea yesterday on my own (ask Snowflakes, I hadn't seen this until he showed me it). Making the metagame is ridiculously easy: it just needs a mod file for the typechart.js and the addition of the metagame to formats.js; I've already made my version (exact reverse to ALL resistances/weaknesses, no change to immunities, called it Opposite Day) on a local server and tested it, and it seems to be working fine. Stealth Rock should work fine too, but I haven't truly tested it that extensively; the code shows no reason why Stealth Rock WOULDN'T work correctly though (as in, Charizard being 4x resistant to SR).

    There are a number of reasons why I disapprove of Rock and Steel resisting Normal, as well as Ice resisting Ice. First of all, for the simplicity of it all, it is best to have it be an exact swap to make it easier to get into the metagame. Just as Tier Shift had every Pokémon in each tier have the same increase rather than arbitrary boosts, if there are arbitrary exceptions to the rules of the metagame it makes it harder to get into the metagame. Secondly, Ghosts are already immune to Normal, so it is not as if Normal will be unresisted by everything in the game. Furthermore, Steel is already the absolute worst type in the metagame, and Rock is extremely bad, too. Allowing them to wall Normal rather than be hit super effectively by it won't affect anything: Fire, Flying and Poison hit Rock hard anyways, and almost everything hits Steel hard.

    Furthermore, giving Rock its resistance to Normal makes Cradily overpowered due to its resistances and single weakness (Electric). Crustle, too, would have a single weakness to Poison, which becomes the best attacking type in the metagame; furthermore, Crustle's Shell Smash + Bug attacks are strong enough to defeat nearly anything, and Rock can hit what Bug can't. Shuckle would also have this single weakness to Poison, as would Armaldo. Rock/Bug and Rock/Grass are extremely powerful if Normal is not allowed to hit Rock hard. Steel doesn't gain anything from resisting Normal, and will still be the absolute worst type in the metagame.

    As for Ice vs. Ice, Grass vs. Grass, Fire vs. Fire, etc. (which I shall henceforth refer to as the "same type clase"), they should be super effective mainly to keep the premise of the metagame alive. Furthermore, it is hypocritical to make Dragon vs. Dragon become a resistance while leaving Ghost vs. Ghost as super effective and Fire vs. Fire as not very effective. Furthermore, it is also necessary to prevent Pokémon which would otherwise have nearly no weakness from becoming too powerful. Here is a list of some Pokémon which become too strong if their own types resist themselves instead of being super effective:
    Show Hide
    Ludicolo: resists Grass, Poison, Flying, and Bug; weak to Ground and Steel (both bad offensive and defensive types, comparatively); without same type clause, loses resist to Grass, gains weakness to Water
    Walrein/Lapras/Cloyster: resist Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, Rock; no weaknesses; without same type clause, lose resist to Water, gain weakness to Water and Ice (except Lapras with Water Absorb, which only gets the Ice weakness)
    Kingdra: resists Dragon, weak to Fire and Steel; without same type clause, gains weakness to Water
    Torterra: immune to Electric; resists Fire, Grass, Ice, Flying, Bug; weak to Ground and Rock (bad offensive types); without same type clause, loses resist to Grass (common offensive type)
    Tropius/Jumpluff: immune to Ground; resist Fire, Grass, Ice, Poison, Flying, Rock; weak to Water and Fighting (bad offensive types); without same type clause, loses resist to Grass, gains weakness to Grass (common offensive type)
    EVERYTHING Ice-type: no weaknesses; resist Fire, Ice, Fighting, Rock, and Steel; without same type clause, loses resist to Ice, gains weakness to Ice (Regice isn't impossible to kill, yay!)
    Rotom-Frost: immune to Ground (levitate); resists Fire, Electric, Ice, Fighting, Ground, Rock; weak to Flying (bad offensive type); without same type clause, loses resists to Electric and Ice, gains weaknesses to both
    Mamoswine: immune to Electric; resists Fire, Water, Grass, Ice, Fighting, and Steel; only weak to Poison; without same type clause, loses 4x Ice resist (good offensive type, in general, without the same type clause, as only it can hit Ice super effectively)
    Articuno: immune to Ground; resists Fire, Electric, Ice, Rock, Steel; weak to Grass and Bug; without same type clause, loses 4x Ice resist (see Mamoswine)
    Jynx: no weaknesses; resists Fire, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Steel (lolwtf resists everything); without same type clause, loses Ice and Psychic resists, gains Ice and Psychic weaknesses (phew)
    Weavile: immune to Psychic; resists Fire, Ice, Fighting, Bug, Rock, Dark; only weak to Ghost (which sucks); without same type clause, loses Ice and Dark resists, gains Ice and Dark weaknesses
    Venusaur: resists Fire, Ice, Poison, Flying, Psychic; weak to Water, Electric, Fighting; without same type clause, loses Poison resist; gains Grass weakness (important since the Grass/Poison combination it has as its STABs hit everything in the game neutrally except Sawsbuck)
    Pure-Psychics: resist Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dark; weak to Fighting (horrible attacking type); without same type clause, lose Psychic resist, gain Psychic weakness
    Meloetta/Girafarig: immune to Ghost (Girafarig is also immune to Grass, if using Sap Sipper); resist Psychic, Bug, Dark; no weaknesses; without same type clause, loses Psychic resist, gains Psychic weakness
    Gallade/Medicham: resist Flying, Psychic, Ghost; weak to Fighting, Rock; without same type clause, lose Psychic resist
    Xatu/Swoobat/Sigilyph: immune to Ground; resist Electric, Ice, Psychic, Rock, Ghost, Dark; weak to Grass and Fighting; without same type clause, lose Psychic resist, gain Psychic weakness
    Ghost-types: they're already weak to Poison and Bug, two of the best offensive types, so keeping them weak to themselves too is unnecessary; furthermore, it is hypocritical to switch Dragons but not them - Ghost-types should resist Ghost-types
    Dark-types (Liepard, Umbreon, Absol, Zoroark): immune to Psychic; resist Fighting, Bug, Dark; only weak to Ghost; without same type clause, loses Dark resist, gains Dark weakness; also, if Dark can't hit Dark hard, it only hits Fighting and Steel hard, the former of which is bad offensively and defensively, and the latter of which is complete shit defensively anyways
    Scrafty: immune to Psychic; resists Fighting, Flying; weak to Rock and Ghost; without same type clause, gains Dark weakness
    Krookodile: immune to Electric and Psychic; resists Water, Grass, Ice, Fighting, Bug, Dark; weak to Poison, Rock, and Ghost; without same type clause, loses Dark resist, gains Dark weakness
    Honchkrow/Mandibuzz: immune to Ground and Psychic; resist Electric, Ice, Rock, Dark; weak to Grass and Ghost; without same type clause, loses Dark resist, gains Dark weakness
    Sableye/Spiritomb: immune to Normal, Fighting, and Psychic; resists Dark; weak to Poison and Ghost; without same type clause, loses Dark resist and Ghost weakness, gains no new weaknesses


    That list includes at least 60 Pokémon (31 of which are named) which become exceptionally good unless the type chart is reversed EXACTLY (also remember the Cradily and Crustle/Shuckle/Armaldo that become extremely good if Normal doesn't hit them hard). I think I have made my case for why types such as Fire and Ice should hit themselves super effectively, does anybody have a reason why they should NOT hit themselves super effectively.

    Furthermore, I know I'm repeating myself here, but it really makes no sense to make Dragons resist themselves while Ghosts still hit each other hard, which is the other thing that should follow the reversed type chart exactly.

    On the topic of giving Ice a weakness, if you leave the chart as it should be as an exact reversal of resistances and weaknesses, Ice should have a weakness: itself. Adding arbitrary weaknesses such as Ice being weak to Water would be ridiculous and serve no purpose besides fixing a problem which we created.

    On the talk of Normal being too good, or Gamefreak wanting Normal to be the worst type, Normal was for a long time the BEST type, with Snorlax, Blissey, etc. being the premier stalling Pokémon for generations. For example, in Generation 1 (RBY), 4 out of 16 Pokémon in OU were Normal-type. Yes, a quarter of the OU Pokémon were Normal. One-sixth of the Pokémon in OU in GSC were Normal-type. It was only in RBY that Normal-types decreased to 2 in OU out of 26, but still, nearly one-sixth of the Pokémon in OU and BL (combined) were Normal-type. Normal-types have a long history of being one of the BEST types, especially considering that these fractions are in comparison to the 17 total types there are. Furthermore, Arceus, the best Pokémon ever and the god of all Pokémon-kind, is Normal type, which ruins that argument right there.

    I would also like to point out that Normal-types are not overpowered with their lack of weaknesses and with only Ghost dodging their STAB. In fact, they are still one of the weaker types due to the massive power creep of BW when combined with the lack of good new Normal-type Pokémon. It seems ridiculous to claim to swap the type chart when Normal-type remains exactly as it was, minus the Fighting resist. I hope you all see what I mean about that; Normal should not be neglected in this metagame.

    -Menace13
  4. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I have a solution... why not make Ice weak to Normal? It would make sense, making pokemon like Abomasnow and Kyurem less broken and boosting Normal pokemon.
  5. nyph

    nyph

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    Lol. If normal is swapped have fun with porygon-z, stoutland and linoone. Linoone priority ohkos everything that's not ghost or unaware.
  6. Menace13

    Menace13

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    I've been testing a pure swap of the type chart against myself, playing both as if I had to actually predict moves, and Porygon-Z has, truly, been putting in a ton of work. However, as for Linoone, Linoone is shit. I just tried it, Light Screen, Reflect, Memento, all off Uxie, then switched in Linoone for a completely safe Belly Drum; Ninetales got Will-O-Wisp on it first thing. Furthermore, here is a list of Pokémon which have common sets that do not die to 1 hit from Linoone's 252+ Atk ExtremeSpeed (Sitrus Berry, not factoring in SR, Spikes, etc.):
    Show Hide

    Always survives with proper investment:
    Ghosts
    Quagsire
    Dragonite (Multiscale)
    Cresselia
    Porygon2
    Tangrowth
    Hippowdon
    Cloyster
    Suicune
    Donphan
    Slowbro
    Mew
    Gliscor
    Gyarados (Intimidate)
    Chansey
    Blissey
    Wobbuffet
    Landorus-T (Intimidate)
    Reuniclus
    Garchomp
    Nidoqueen
    Milotic
    Vaporeon
    Zapdos
    Hitmontop (Intimidate)

    At least 50% chance to with proper investment:
    Politoed
    Gothitelle
    Venusaur

    At least 1% chance to survive with proper investment:
    Victini
    Whimsicott
    Celebi
    Sigilyph
    Conkeldurr
    Shaymin
    Kyurem-B
    Ludicolo
    Breloom


    And that's just the common OU-metagame Pokémon; many lower-tier Pokémon can also survive it.

    Furthermore, it is not that hard to stop it from setting up; Reflect + Light Screen + Memento is a bit overkill, and there are many other ways to stop a Linoone sweep. It isn't THAT powerful. Furthermore, Ghosts are EXPECTED to be common in this tier, since they have almost no weaknesses already (Bug and Poison only for a pure-Ghost).

    As for Stoutland, it is walled even MORE easily than Linoone, so it isn't a problem at all. The fact that Normal is never super effective is why it isn't broken.

    Porygon-Z, I will admit, is awesome, but it almost never deals even 20% to Blissey with 252 SpA 252+ Spe Choice Scarf and Adaptability, and it is outsped easily if it does not have the Scarf. In fact, Porygon-Z's Psyshock does more damage than its Tri Attack to Blissey (and my Blissey has 252 Def investment).

    Furthermore, I must stress the fact that allowing anything to block Normal completely invalidates the "Type Chart Swap" aspect of the metagame, where the type chart's resistances and weaknesses are simply swapped.

    EDIT: Also, here are some logs from some battles of the complete typechart reversal:
    The first battle! (Sun mirror match)
    A challenger has arrived? (Sun vs. Hail)
    This seems normal. (Sun vs. Normal Sweep)

    I should also mention that those battles were really fun, even if they were between me, myself, and I. They also seem to be faster than normal games, as only Normal-types can truly "stall" as we know it since Steel is dead.
  7. Snaquaza

    Snaquaza

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    Dont forget Delibird, it is 4 times resistant to stealth rock
  8. Anty

    Anty

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    After looking at what you say, I think I will change it so every thing is changed. It will be fun with types SE on themselves, there will be more risky speed ties.
  9. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Finish him!
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    Do you want me to redo the chart?
  10. nyph

    nyph

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    If you're running dual screen memento then you should run sub/drum/es/gunkshot @ silk scarf. +rocks if possible. But I suppose it may be too hard to set up when you can't really force anything out.

    Choice band stoutland is brutal in OU. I can't see how it's not gonna be way scarier if normal is swapped.

    Also, fake out+last resort ambipom... Guts swellow... Curselax... Kanga and miltank that can spam choiced returns with no resists... Yeah normal will be too good. Nothing stops you running 5 normal type powerhouses and having no weakness.
  11. Anty

    Anty

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    Thanks mine isn't good anyway also I imagin SD scolipede being a good type, with high base speed and his dual STABs only resisted by grass types which he has EQ for. Do you reckon a salac berry set could work?

    Jynx has an amazing typing but paper thin defences, do you reckon she could set up easier?

    Also crustel and are amaldo only have two weaknesses and much more resistances, icluding a useful resistance to rock for armaldo.

    What about wormadam-s with 105 defense and a great typing (only weak to poison/ground) will he be usable?

    Also I have realised that bug, poison and steel are the best offensive typings and grasss and ice are the best defensive typing.
  12. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I assume this has no effect on Spikes/Toxic Spikes?
  13. Anty

    Anty

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    No, As spikes are set damage an Tspikes just poison the enemy and immunities haven't changed.
  14. Menace13

    Menace13

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    Funny thing is, Grass is an amazing offensive typing too. Grass is super effective against 7 things.

    Ice has the unique quality of being the only thing super effective against Ice, and thus is also an amazing typing.

    In my experience, Grass/Poison types are always amazing offensively, but mediocre defensively. Grass and Poison, together, form an unresisted STAB combination against every Pokémon in the game, sans Sawsbuck. (They especially get wrecked by Grass, which does quadruple damage to them.
  15. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Finish him!
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    So here is the new chart assuming self-type is reversed now and Normal hits Rock and Steel x2.

    EDIT: New chart added to first post.
  16. Anty

    Anty

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    Again, thank you very much. I shall put this on the stater soon.

    Edit: I put it on.

    Also I feel like venasaur will have bigger edge on sun sweeper as its STABs have almost perfect coverage (only sap sipper sawsbuck isn't hit neutrally) so it doesn't need weather ball for coverage (victreebell). So a set with sleep powder/growth/solar beam or giga drain/sludge bomb will be used and can easily sweep a team, it is also better than its physical set. Also victreebell with the same set will be great in NU sun teams.
  17. The Eevee General

    The Eevee General Finish him!
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    Too bad Ghost/Psychic isn't a type...
  18. Anty

    Anty

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    That would be good but it is still weak to poison and psychic, poison being a good offensive typing (lol). Actually psychic dark has no weaknesses (did you mean that) but there isn't one for that typing (emo gothitelle).
  19. Anty

    Anty

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    Sorry to double post but i have big news.
    I messaged joim and he replied and said that he will make my meta and put it on the server in the next 12 hours;
    http://joimslab.psim.us/
    If you see me on it feel free to ask me for a game and i will probably accept, i might be under the name of anty208 or anty308.
  20. Joim

    Joim All promises become a lie, all that's bening corrups in time
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    It's available now in my server :)
  21. Anty

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  22. Present

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    Celebi and T-tar seem to make a really nice little core of sorts, resisting each others weaknesses and having a lot of resistances themselves. Too bad Celebi does so little damage, not even able to do 50% to Articuno with Giga Drain.

    Dragon types are really strong, with no resists except for themselves. Garchomp and Salamence in particular do huge amounts of damage, not fearing ice shard anymore.

    I have been having fun with eviolite + SD Scyther personally, since bug bite does some good damage and Quick Attack is actually really decent now.
  23. Harbinger of Peace

    Harbinger of Peace

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    I can see pokemon like Ninjask, Regice, Articuno, Charizard, and others will be getting a lot more usage. Oh yeah, and I think dark-ghost types still have no weaknesses. Everything that dark is weak to, ghost resists and vice versa. Oh, and does Bolt-Beam work anymore? This is getting hard to comprehend lol
  24. The Eevee General

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    Now weak to Poison, though.
  25. Menace13

    Menace13

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    No. GrassSludge (as I call it) is the new BoltBeam. Energy Ball/Giga Drain with Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave makes an unresisted combination, except for Sawsbuck. Bolt-Beam is resisted by pure Ground-types, maybe more, IDK.

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