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Tyranitar (Lead) | [QC: 3/3] [GP:2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by LilOuOn, Mar 11, 2013.

  1. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Hey! This is my first time doing this, so I'll receive any kind of suggestions, don't refrain please!
    This thing is powerful: http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/bw_grammar_standards, learning a lot

    QC: 3/3 | AccidentalGreed, Lavos Spawn, BKC
    GP: 1/2 | GatoDelFuego


    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar

    Skeleton (open)
    [SET]
    name: Lead
    move 1: Crunch
    move 2: Fire Blast / Ice Beam
    move 3: Low Kick / Ice Beam
    move 4: Stealth Rock
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Sand Stream
    nature: Hasty / Mild
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • This set's value is in two things: Guaranteed rocks and surprise factor.
    • Now that Deo-D is gone, this boy can take its place as a Hyper Offense lead with Stealth Rock and 3 moves.
    • Bluffs a Scarf set and then destroys whatever comes in with its great coverage.
    • Usually is used with a slow spread. This makes the set even more unpredictable killing Pokemons that are supposed to outspeed him.
    • Outspeeds common counters/checks like Scizor, Breloom, Landorus-T, etc, and takes them down easily.
    • It is really important to note that leads such as Sash Terrakion or Sash Garchomp are able to beat this set unless they set up rocks fist turn while you use low kick / ice beam respectively and then kill them second turn. Nevertheless, starting the game 6-5, a 1 HP T-tar and no rocks is not good.
    • Crunch works as the main stab move to deal with Lati@s, Espeon and other psychics.
    • Fire Blast is there to hit the likes of Scizor, Breloom, Ferrothorn, Forretress, etc, which can give him a lot of trouble.
    • Low Kick hits Terrakion, Heatran and Tyranitar, all important targets and common leads, without having the drawback of the drop in Attack. It strikes a 2HKO with the first two and a OHKO on the latter.
    • Ice Beam is really great to hit Landorus-T, Gliscor, Gachomp, Donpahn and other dragons. It always OHKOes the first three and 2HKOes the elephant.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The EVs are pretty standard. Max speed to outspeed Adamant Breloom, and max special attack to OHKO standard Ferrothorn 50% of the time.
    • Hasty nature is there to maximize speed without shrinking his attacking stats. The use of Mild is also a nice option, but you lose against Breloom.
    • Focus Sash works pretty well to take a hit from faster foes and strike back or to set up rocks without problems.
    • Other attacking moves include Thunder to 2HKO defensive Politoed and to deal some good damage to bulky water types. Thunderbolt can be used also as a substitute of Thunder. Pursuit can be considered if you want to trap Lati@s before your opponent can switch-out. Earthquake seems good to hit Jirachi, Tentacruel, Tyranitar, Terrakion, Heatran, etc.
    • Bulky special walls are Tyranitar's main problem. Jirachi, Blissey, Tentacruel, gives him a lot of trouble. Even if you pack thunderbolt it is very hard to deal with the last one unless you run Mild.


      <ul class="damage_calculation">
      <li>Ice Beam vs. 200/0 Landorus Therian 109% - 128%</li>
      <li>Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Garchomp 107% - 126%</li>
      <li>Ice Beam vs. 252/0 Gliscor 119% - 141%</li>
      <li>Ice Beam vs. 252/0 Donphan 65% - 77%</li>
      <li>Fire Blast vs. 4/0 Breloom 121% - 143%</li>
      <li>Fire Blast vs. 252/168 Ferrothorn 90% - 107%</li>
      <li>Low Kick vs. 4/0 Terrakion 75% - 88%</li>
      <li>Low Kick vs. 252/0 Heatran 55% - 64%</li>
      <li>Low Kick vs. 252/0 Tyranitar 101% - 120%</li>
      <li>Thunder vs. 252/0 Politoed 55% - 65%</li>
      <li>Thunder vs. 252/0 Tentacruel 49% - 58%</li>
      </ul>

    ---------------------------------------------------

    REPLAYS:

    -Guy being swept by Sash Tyranitar :]


    [SET]
    name: Lead
    move 1: Crunch
    move 2: Fire Blast / Ice Beam
    move 3: Low Kick / Ice Beam
    move 4: Stealth Rock
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Sand Stream
    nature: Hasty / Mild
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Rather than relying on sheer physical power, this set capitalizes on setting up Stealth Rock with ease while using its surprise factor to significantly damage common switch-ins. This set can outspeed common checks, such as Breloom, Scizor, Landorus-T and hit them with super effective moves, allowing Tyranitar to bluff a Choice Scarf set and start the game with a really good advantage. You would be wise to use this set only in offensive teams, as it is not intended to keep healthy for all the match but to set entry hazards and possibly mess up the momentum of weather teams.</p>

    <p>Crunch works as the main STAB move to deal with Espeon and Xatu, two problems for other entry hazard-setting leads, and other Psychic-types. In the second slot, Fire Blast can OHKO Scizor, Breloom, Forretress (if Sturdy is not active) and Ferrothorn (which has a 45% of OHKOing without rain). Low Kick hits Terrakion, Heatran, and opposing Tyranitar, all important targets and common leads, without having the drawback of the drop in two stats that Superpower has; it 2HKOes the first two and OHKOes the latter. However, Tyranitar can run Ice Beam to always OHKO Landorus-T, Gliscor, Garchomp and other Dragon-types, and to 2HKO Donphan.</p>

    <p>It is important to be aware that leads such as Focus Sash Terrakion and Garchomp are able to beat this set unless they use Stealth Rock first turn while Tyranitar uses Low Kick or Ice Beam and then KOes them second turn. Starting the game 6-5 with a 1 HP Tyranitar and no Stealth Rock is not a good situation, and should be avoided. That said, taking advantage of the team preview to identify if your opponent is using a dedicated lead that can put you in an immediate losing position helps, so you can save Tyranitar for later.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs are pretty standard: max Speed to outrun Adamant Breloom and max Special Attack to OHKO standard Ferrothorn 45% of the time. Hasty nature is there to maximize Speed without shrinking Tyranitar's attacking stats; Mild is also a nice option, but causes Tyranitar to always lose against Breloom. Other attacking moves include Thunder, which works great against rain teams, 2HKOing defensive Politoed and dealing some good damage to bulky Water-types. Even so, it is not recommended because of its general unreliability outside of rain. Pursuit can be considered if your team struggles against Latios and Latias, but remember that Tyranitar is not going to survive many hits. Earthquake hits specially defensive Pokemon, such as Jirachi, which otherwise gives Tyranitar a lot of problems, as well as Tentacruel, Tyranitar, Terrakion, and Heatran.</p>

    <p>Pokemon that appreciate physically defensive walls out of the way are great teammates. Terrakion is an awesome choice as an offensive sweeper, because Tyranitar easily lures in Landorus-T and OHKOes it with Ice Beam. If you need Scizor out of the way, go for Fire Blast, but if you need Tentacruel out of the way to help Keldeo, a great Pokemon on offensive sand teams, sweep, go for Thunder.</p>
  2. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    well if you really have to use this set i dont think it needs max speed... something like 194 speed should suffice if you want to outspeed special defensive heatran, but other than that tyranitar doesnt have many reason to run max speed. Superpower should also be slashed somewhere, still dont know if this deserves a set.
  3. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    With max speed you outspeed 252 Spe Adamant Breloom (I think this is really important since they usually use spore or bullet seed). Superpower is already slashed with crunch.
  4. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Oh, hum, i thought it was pursuit.. lol my eyes....
    By the way, breloom is still not an enough reason to me, i mean a lot are jolly anyway and tyranitar shouldnt stay in on it, they tend to do mach punch in my experience rather than bullet seed, since sadly if it does two hits it doesnt ko ttar.
  5. blunder

    blunder

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    this is indeed a good set, will add input later
  6. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

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    Low Kick >>>>> Superpower

    A fair amount of Tyranitar aren't dumb and won't lead / frantically try to get rocks up. Being an offensive pushover as a result of a misprediction is much worse than hitting a few select targets for less damage.
  7. Ryanor

    Ryanor

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    Sure, Tyranitar is very versatile and can take by surprise a lot of Pokemon. Tar also can set up Stealth Rock with ease thanks to Focus Sash. But I think that the main reason for using Tyranitar in a offensive team is take control of weather, and this set is not the best option for that.
  8. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    I get your point. However, I have never found a Jolly Breloom (I have faced way too many brelooms and nothing yet). Talking about mach punch...personally, I would never throw my Fighting gem (in the case of using it) to the trash can just to kill a Tyranitar, I usually use spore and then, based on my opponent's team, swords dance or switch. Thanks anyways for your opinion, I'll wait to see what else does the community have to say :]


    Sure, I'll talk about Low Kick somewhere there!

    As I said, the main use of this set is to kill something, then set up rocks or vice versa. Just think of Deo-D, he is not there to win weather wars, T-tar helps somehow. Oh, and if you want to win the weather war you can set the rocks and switch out (if you are lucky).

    --------------------------------------

    I'd like to see the comment of a mod or something to see if this analysis is needed. Thanks!

    EDIT: Almost forgot, I'll be adding more information to the skeleton, just wanted to know if this can be done.
  9. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Here is how the set should look like:

    name: Offensive Lead
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Low Kick
    move 4: Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Stone Edge
    item: Focus Sash
    ability: Sand Stream
    nature: Hasty / Mild
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Max SpA and Fire Blast are necessary, to OHKO standard Ferrothorn 50% of the time, thus preventing it from setting up any hazards. You also need Fire Blast to always OHKO Breloom, as Flamethrower doesn't always kill even 4/0 variants, and Breloom can then put you to Sleep with Spore or KO you with Bullet Seed. Low Kick hits Terrakion, Heatran, Tyranitar, all very important targets and common leads. It 2HKOes the first two and always OHKOes the latter (Superpower has zero use btw).

    The last slot is where it gets a bit hard. Thunderbolt hits the more relevant targets to Tyranitar than any other move and thus is listed first. It OHKOes offensive Starmie after SR and 1 LO round, is the only move that has a small chance to 2HKO max HP Specs Politoed, and almost always does with a Mild nature, 2HKOes Keldeo, and 2HKOes Tentacruel after SR and sand 30% of the time with Hasty and 90% of the time with Mild. All those are important targets because they do one of those things: commonly lead, are good switch-ins to Tyranitar and dangerous if given a free turn, or are spinners. Ice Beam OHKOes Lando-T and Focus Sash-less Garchomp, and 2HKOes physically defensive Hippowdon and Focus Sash Garchomp, all common leads, deals with dangerous threats such as most Dragon-types, and makes Tyranitar a good lure for Gliscor. Finally, Stone Edge doesn't deal with any lead or spinner better than the ohter moves, excpet for Ninetales which doesn't want to stay in anyway, but OHKO-2HKOes a lot of generally common Pokemon such as Rotom-W (even max HP sets are almost always 2HKOed after SR), most Dragon-types, Thundurus-T, and some other Water-types depending on their spreads, such as Politoed, Tentacruel, and Starmie.

    Hasty is the preffered option to outspeed most Breloom and everything that Speed creeps them, but Mild is good if you don't care about Breloom and want to always OHKO standard Ferrothorn and have have a better chance to 2HKO some water-types with Thunderbolt.

    Crunch can go to AC, as it is useful for dealing with some Psychic-type leads, such as Azelf, DS Espeon, and Uxie, but those are rare to warrant anything more than an AC mention of Crunch. I know it deals with Pokemon such as Lati@s too, but those Pokemon don't want to stay in against Tyranitar anyway, and if they do it means they can OHKO it.
  10. yee

    yee
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    After some good thought / talk with Alexwolf this set is growing on me, it does a good job at fitting coverage into an offense SR package and does way better than that god awful SpD MixTar against the leads it'll be facing. I would personally prefer Thunder over Tbolt because of rain and hard hits in general (barely 2hkoing Toed feels weak), T-Wave too for trying to get a "cripple a mon and get rocks" out of an exchange every now and then. Both are fine in OO.

    Edit- Those could be whole analysis OO mentions too because of the other non choice Tar.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Here is an alternative spread i found to use with Expert Belt:

    20 HP / 88 Def / 156 SpA / 244 Spe with a Timid nature

    156 EVs allow Tyranitar to always OHKO Ferrothorn with Fire Blast. Even with a Timid nature, Low Kick hits stronger thanks to Expert Belt and still OHKO/2HKOes whatever you want it to. 20 HP and 88 Def allow Tyranitar to always survive an EQ from SR Landorus-T and Focus Sash Garchomp, and avoid the 2HKO from LO Starmie's Hydro Pump + Rapid Spin. 244 Speed EVs still allow Tyranitar to outspeed Adamant Breloom by one point. Except for OHKOing Ferrothorn, here are some benefits of using Expert Belt:

    • 156 SpA Expert Belt Tyranitar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Leftovers Politoed: 185-218 (48.17 - 56.77%) -- 37.11% chance to 2HKO
    • 156 SpA Expert Belt Tyranitar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 158-187 (43.4 - 51.37%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
    • 156 SpA Expert Belt Tyranitar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 211-250 (80.84 - 95.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather -- big chance to OHKO after 1 LO round and sandstorm damage
    So, basically Expert Belt gives you exactly the same output as a +SpA nature but you still get to outspeed Adamant Breloom. However, the price you pay for this is getting OHKOed by certain threats, such as Terrakion, Keldeo (never leads though), Gengar (rarely leads), and Focus Blast Thundurus-T.

    So what are the ideas about the spread + Expert Belt? Good enough for AC or not?
  12. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    Edited the thread (I didn't add Alex's last post). I like the Ebelt set, I have to think about how to put that in the AC if it is approved.
  13. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Good job on the calcs! I want to see some discussion about which move should be slashed first, Tbolt or Ice Beam? Tbolt helps more against spinners, but Ice Beam helps more against Lando-T which is everywhere.

    EDIT: Don't add the alternative spread i mentioned in the AC yet, i want some opinions about it...
  14. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou11768200

    WATCH THIS REPLAY ^ Guy being swept by Tyranitar :]]]]

    This shows the power and unpredictability of this set. I know that that guy had low ranking and played really bad (honestly i don't ladder on PS!, so my ranking is low), but I think that this thing deserves a set.
  15. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I personally prefer Ice Beam on TTar for Hippo, Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Dragonite leads, but I do agree that Thunder(bolt) is a close second. Shame that it can't pack both :[

    Timid EBelt set also looks intriguing if you're using TBolt - worth an AC mention imo
  16. Cygnis

    Cygnis

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    You still get the same OHKO with 216 SAtk so I recommend removing some EVs to get more Bulk or physical attack. I also don't really see what Thunderbolt / thunder is doing for you. Politoed generally carry Focus Blast and also since this set is fairly offensive you lack bulk to win the weather wars against Politoed. There are much better options than Thunderbolt.
  17. LilOuOn

    LilOuOn

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    I'll add it :] Maybe in another paragraph?

    With 216 you only get 35% to OHKO Ferro, and, since the only physical move is low kick and it will still making similar amounts of damage, I don't think it is worth it. Any other opinions about the 216 Satk?

    Talking about thunder...with the fast spread of this t-tar, Politoed's rain will remain. Thunder gets 100% accuracy now and 2HKOes defensive politoed:

    • 252SpAtk Tyranitar (Neutral) Thunder vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Politoed (Neutral): 54% - 64% (210 - 248 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Remember that you outspeed, use thunder, politoed uses Focus Blast, you have 1 HP and thunder again.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Ok specifically explain what the alternative spread does on a paragraph on AC. Also i am ok with Thunder getting mentioned in AC, as it is good against Politoed, and not terrible outside of rain too.

    Max SpA is needed to have a bigger chance to OHKO Ferrothorn; it's not like the extra bulk helps with anything, and Attack investment is not needed too.
  19. ginganinja

    ginganinja Member of the Gamefreak ORAS Balancing Team
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    Expert Belt looks interesting, but it simply becomes the Mixed Tar set that actually got removed from the Tyranitar analysis last update, so I am a bit reluctant to simply throw it in simply because MixTar has been in and out of the analysis and really needs full QC discussion. There is little point in writing up a MixTar set if its going to get removed again a few months down the track.

    Having said that Sash Tar IS a good set, and its not listed in the Tyranitar analysis. I would very much prefer if the OP focused on the Focus Sash lead set while QC can discuss MixTar (with Expert Belt and all) as a seperate set on IRC / the forums (Focus Sash lead has many variations anyway) and decide if it needs a spot or not.

    Currently I am aware that the set has a strong special attack leaning focus, but I am very aware that Physically based Focus Sash Tyranitar has been used a lot on the ladder with great success. I think QC needs to discuss on Mixed Tar, Physically and Specially based Tyranitar and if Focus Slash just needs a slash on existing SR sets, or not.
  20. dice

    dice practitioner of the city
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    ebelt- no
    sash- yes

    ac mention ebelt in the sash set, since sash is just clutch when it comes down to it. surviving terrakion close combats, mamoswine earthquakes, landorus attacks etc. is just too crucial for this set. i've used this set a lot so i like it and will approve it once we agree on what the set should be. not mentioning crunch is the main set is kinda weird, since i've had major success with it. ice beam is also one of those moves i've just found crucial for hitting the lando's + dragons, but then again that is just personal preference. it may have a bit of slash-itis since tyranitar has such a major movepool, so we probably won't be able to agree on any one give set.
  21. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Just put in sash and I'll happily approve.
  22. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    I think Crunch should still be in there for now. As it stands, Tyranitar is getting beaten by Latias (getting set up on, of all things), which should never, NEVER happen. Most sand teams easily deal with Politoed and Water-types anyway, so Thunderbolt is kind of redundant. Fire Blast destroys Skarm, so the only thing you're missing out on Gyarados, which isn't too big of a threat against sand teams either.
  23. Cygnis

    Cygnis

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    Thunderbolt only checks Politoed same with Thunder. genereally, sand teams have a rain check mostly I see Gastrodon to check rain teams. Crunch and Pursuit should be in there as it is nice for STAB and also none of its STABs are being used. Most low kicks targets are covered by Fire Blast.

    Focus Sash FTW
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Latias would never attempt to set-up on Tyranitar, unless she is 100% sure it doesn't have Crunch. Also Lead Tyranitar is not neccesarily used in sand teams, as often it just provides sand to weather offense teams so that they can more easily wear down offensive Pokemon. The point of Thunderbolt is not to generically beat Water-types, it is to beat the top two spinners, preventing them from spinning away SR, beat Politoed, one of the most common leads, and prvent Keldeo from setting up all over Tyranitar.
  25. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Yea, a lot of the tour players I know actually use Crunch on their sashtar, and it makes sense. I talked it over with shrang, and we're leaning towards this moveset:

    move 1: Crunch
    move 2: Fire Blast
    move 3: Aqua Tail / Low Kick
    move 4: Stealth Rock / Ice Beam

    Aqua Tail provides the best 3-move coverage, hitting Heatran, Terrakion, Tyranitar, and Mamoswine like Low Kick, while also hitting other Ground-types like Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Landorus for solid damage. Low Kick and Ice Beam is preferred when TTar foregoes Stealth Rock for the additional coverage.

    AC mention EB and Thunder(bolt), Surf and Superpower for now. Maybe Pursuit, too.

    We may have to tweak with the EV spread, since it's more physically-oriented now.

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