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DPP OU Tyranitar Stall

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Taylor, Jul 5, 2009.

  1. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    [​IMG]





    Introduction



    In DP I was most comfortable with offensive teams; the stall style was not my forte in such an offensive environment. I always found myself losing an important match to an unpredictable moveset when I used stall. Innovative MixTar, for example, can completely ruin stall if played intelligently. This kind of creative, yet unexpected technical advantage put me off stall, and I opted for bulky offence, standard or out-an-out offense to match my opponents like-for-like.

    Garchomp was banned and could no longer Swords Dance + Outrage its way to glory; this undoubtably gave stall a boost. But once Platinum's additions were included, Trick perhaps became stall's biggest threat. After several attempts playing with stall in DPPt, I found that I wasn't prepared to outplay my opponent when they had Trick at their disposal; thus, I left stall out of the frame again.

    The last problem I Encountered with stall was when it can be difficult as you intend to Rapid Spin opposing entry hazards when they have a Rotom form up their sleeves. They're everywhere and when you strive to clear yourself from Stealth Rock, in comes Rotom... we know the rest.

    However, I have come back to this game and I've whitnessed stall being used effectively by all of your usual suspects; we know who they are. And after I magically thought of a way to deal with both Trick and Rotom, (albeit to a certain degree) I decided that I would once again give stall another chance.



    Unique Addition


    This involves: Tyranitar, Pursuit and Choice Scarf.

    Now, I have found that stall is founded by five defensively orientated Pokemon; sometimes six, but more commonly the sixth member of a stall team is included to bail it out of situations, or is saved for a late-game sweep. I feel that five *can* hold their own to great effect, while the sixth member provides something different. In this case, that is Tyranitar.



    Team Taylor Stall (TTS!)




    [​IMG]

    Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 SDef
    Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Earthquake
    - Protect
    - Ice Beam
    - Stealth Rock

    Stealth Rock must be up as soon as possible to prevent opposing Salamence tearing this team apart. Protect allows Swampert to evade "suicude bombers", and allows me to scout enemy sets without taking any damage. Ice Beam and Earthuake offer some form of attack. I am considering Rest and Roar on this set, but Protect and another move must be sacraficed if that is to be the case. I feel Protect can be replaced because I can predict incoming Explosion and switch Rotom, so Protect is the most expendable move; it's the fact that either Earthquake or Ice Beam would have to be dropped in order to make room for Rest and Roar.

    No nonsense EV spread. I wanted the maximum defence possible to be able to switch into physical attacks from your everday Tyranitar, et cetera.


    [​IMG]


    Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 40 HP/252 Def/216 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Softboiled
    - Aromatherapy
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss


    Arguably the most integral cog in stall. Laugh off special attacks, and provide the team with cleric support. Aromatheraphy is why I consider using Rest without Sleep Talk on Swampert, and why I currently use this strategy with Rotom, by the way. Flamethrower is mainly for Forretress who intend to Rapid Spin my entry hazards, and Toxic in to catch off Infernape, Tyranitar and the like.

    SAtk EVs grant a 2HKO on Shed Shell Skarmory (0 SpD) with Stealth Rock support.



    [​IMG]
    Forretress (M) @ Shed Shell
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 SDef
    Careful nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin
    - Payback
    - Rest

    We're all familiar with Forretress and how it operates on the playing field. Set up Spikes when possible, and catch enemy Rotom off-guard with Payback; this allows Tyranitar to switch in and Pursuit afterwards. With this current set, I feel obligated to suppliment its survivability with Wish support; for now, I run Rest to further elevate Blissey's Aromatheraphy usefulness. Of course you need to Rapid Spin entry hazards and with Tyranitar taking care of Ghost-types, Forretress' objective is much easier to accomplish.

    The EVs allow me to set up layers of Spikes/Toxic Spikes on bulky waters. Forretress' defence is considerably high already, so I opted for EVs in Special Defence.


    [​IMG]

    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/6 Spe
    Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall
    - Roar

    Phaze out non-Hidden Power Electric Suicune? Yes, please.

    I needed a Sleep Talk Pokemon and Gyarados can fill in just fine. Its attack is respectable at 286; it's amazing considering that this spread is without a beneficial nature or Attack EVs. Life Orb Lucario with Crunch nulifies my Rotom's attempts to keep it in check, so Gyarados will gladly fill in instead; note that there is however an alternative to Lucario, and that is Choice Scarf Tyranitar. Extreme bulk and carefully thought switch-ins make this variation a difficult addition to eliminate.

    Intimidate, maximum HP and defence is absolutely amazing, and Gyarados' special defence is nothing to laugh at either. I followed the same prinicple as I did with Swampert: no nonsense 252/252. Out-an-out physical support is what I want from Gyarados, and I get it.

    [​IMG]

    Rotom-w @ Leftovers
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP/96 Def/160 SDef
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Rest



    As much as it irritates me in appearence and the fact that it mocks Rapid Spin, it's *that* good I have no choice but to use it myself.

    With Stealth Rock, I can effectively take down opposing Gyarados without much fuss. The moveset allows me to hit enemy Tyranitar, Heatran, and a whole list of household names for super effective damage. Independant Rest without Sleep Talk because Blissey is not too far behind with Aromatheraphy. I enjoy having three attacks for one very important reason: it is very difficult to switch in Tyranitar on Jirachi (as much as it is suicide) when I suspect Trick, so Rotom is the safer option and can still remain a threat with Choice Scarf.

    Testing out Calm with SpD EVs.

    .


    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sand Stream
    EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake

    Normally if you're going to utilize Sand Stream on a stall team, you use Hippowdon. I don't take to the fact I am nullifying Leftovers recovery, so I tend not to reveal Tyranitar unless I suspect either one of the following: Rotom or Trick,; sometimes it's both both (which is even better).

    Choice Scarf Tyranitar will happily swap like-for-like with Trick users because there is no downside to it (well, for me anyway). Trick is widespread amongst OU movepools and it can suddenly appear and indirectly damage your strategy, but there is little to boast about at their end when they recieve Choice Scarf back. Latias, Rotom, Gengar and Starmie, occasionally carry Trick, intentionally ruining your efforts to outstall and frustrate the opponent; ideally, for someone who is trying to elevate Tyranitar's importance, those who I listed are all hit for super effective with Pursuit/Crunch. This is what Tyranitar should do: switch in on Trick, and gain advantage by using Pursuit on their "spin blocker".

    It's fair to say that Rotom is the most popular and effective "spin blocker" in the current metagame. To ensure that I can keep my team free from entry hazards, I follow this procedure: analyze their team as the game is in motion, and make an attempt to guess whether or not they're using Rotom (this can be done in a numerous amount of ways: if they stack up entry hazards, whether it be stall or not; have a particular weakness to certain Pokemon from what I have have seen so far, and expect them to have Rotom to help them in that department, et cetera). Should I suspect Rotom, I use Payback straight off (sometimes it's too risky to switch in Tyranitar on the Pokemon Forretress is setting up on). If I hit the intended target, I switch to Tyranitar to take the
    Thunderbolt/Overheat/WoW and proceed with Pursuit. If they stay in and WoW, I hit with Pursuit for a second time and I will use Blissey's Aromatheraphy to clear the status to go again.

    Tyranitar's set is standard.


    ---------------------------​


    Conclusion


    So, there you have it. It's not by any means a finished product, as admittedly my stall teams are not the most productive and this version needs to be refined.

    I'm speculating if I should opt for Roar + Rest on Swampert, keeping Aromaptheraphy on Blissey. Alternatively, I could choose to go with the more familiar Wish set and support Forretress, et cetera. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but it's finding the right balance and sticking to that method.

    Changes

    • Blissey's EV spread has been altered. Toxic has been placed over Focus Blast, as has Seismic Toss over Flamethrower.
    • Forretress is now equipped with Rest over Toxic Spikes.
    • Testing Rotom-w with SpD, et cetera.
    • Gyarados now has 4 EVs in Speed





    Please fix this mess.
  2. Olie

    Olie

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    Looks pretty neat Taylor, but I am really skeptical about Focus Blast on Blissey. Tyranitar outspeeds and usually kills it, and is more efficiently handled by swampert anyway. Do you find yourself using the move often?
  3. VKCA

    VKCA (Virtual Circus Kareoky Act)

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    how much do you find yourself actually using focusblast? you could always drop it in favor of protect and then switch softboiled for wish. I would also think that a more specially defensive blissey might be good, because if a togekiss gets one nasty plot in he can 2ko bliss with sr
  4. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Swampert's only way of recover is Protect and cannot repeatedly switch-in on Tyranitar. Intelligent players will conservatively play their Tyranitar to find a way through my team; Blissey offers that extra bit of damage along with Toxic Spikes. Lucario also try to Swords Dance infront of Blissey, so that's cool.

    I am merely testing it out at the moment. It's not the definitive move for that slot.

    Wish and Aromatheraphy cannot be included on the same set.
  5. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    First of all, this is obviously a well thought out, good team, so forgive me if I overlook something when rating or sound condescending (I tend to do that apparently :( ).

    I'm personally questioning the wisdom of 252 HP EVs on Blissey. I don't see what they accomplish. You'd get more physical defense from 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD, Bold, than from 252 HP EVs. Ideally I'd run the traditional 176 - 216 Special Defense EVs though with Calm, I always like being able to bank on Blissey no matter what. Other than that, running 80 Special Attack will guarantee a 2HKO on 0 SpD Skarmory with Flamethrower and Stealth Rock and Shed Shell, so that's a good benchmark if you want it.

    I'd really think that something like Thunder Wave would be better for Blissey than Focus Blast. It cripples a few Tyranitar variants and makes many able to be handled by Swampert, and it doesn't miss. Focus Blast's laughable accuracy has always let me down, and stall is the kind of play I've always found has zero room for error. Considering your only status is Toxic Spikes, and everything from Latias to Heatran will be ignoring that, it seems like a very safe option.

    Running Spikes with Toxic Spikes on Forretress initially seemed to me to be a bad idea, but considering how rarely Toxic Spikes come into play in a floating Steel metagame, it seems more productive than carrying a dedicated Tentacruel like every other stall team. My main concern is the complete lack of recovery, but I don't know if you can do anything about that. Wish doesn't fit anywhere on this team, and you'd have to give up Toxic Spikes if you want Rest.

    Your team's handling of Trick in particular is worthy of praise and is basically how people have envisioned the new face of stall in DPPT will look, in my opinion.
  6. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Cool Team, but I don't think Bliss needs all that HP, considering it's got so much of it anyway. The extra HP also gives you less special walling power than if you had invested them in Special Defense. I think you should simply move the HP EVs into Sp. Def to give you that extra chunk of walling power.

    EDIT-Chris is me beat me to it...
  7. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    lol

    I suppose that 252/252 Def/SpD is the best way to go. I wonder how many Special Attack EVs +6 Suicune must invest in to 2HKO Calm 252 SpD Blissey.

    I will definately look into that. From the people I have already spoken to about this team, Focus Blast has been subject to the discussion when they have shared their thoughts.

    And I somewhat need Toxic Spikes for Infernape. I suppose Gyarados can cover non Grass Knot +2 varients, which does give me a reason to add Rest over Toxic Spikes. Aromatheraphy keeps out Wish at this very moment in time; if there's demand for Wish in the coming changes I make, I will have to replace Aromatheraphy.

    I appreciate it. : )
  8. lati0s

    lati0s

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    you have a pretty big weakness to DD tyranitar, your best switch in is swampert, but it's 2Ko'd by life orb crunch and can't OHKO back with EQ, also since he is your lead and lacks recovery, and you are not running wish, he cannot be counted on to be at full health. rotom, blissey and gyarados and OHKO'd after stealth your own T-tar risks a speed tie and a OHKO if he loses, and foretress is complete set up bait.

    I see two possible solutions to this change swampert to hippowdon, who, hith his better defense and reliable recovery, makes a much better switch into DD tar,
    or change payback on foretress to gyro ball, you lose coverage on rotom, but you still hit gengar hard, and do big damage to t-tar.
  9. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    DD Life Orb Tyranitar is fairly rare in my experience. Also, SR + LO + EQ will finish off the Life Orb Tyranitar. This seems like a paper weakness.

    If I recall correctly, it's not even possible to reliably do it without Life Orb. Definitely not possible with any sane CroCune spread.

    This is probably the biggest "problem" with the team. It's very Aromatherapy dependent, but Wish would be extremely useful. Wishing on a DD Tyranitar, then going to Swampert on the DD could save your butt; same with Gyarados and Lucario or whatever. With Rest Talkers, you do have status sponges, the main issue is if stuff can get away with Resting for two turns, or if they can completely rely on other Pokémon to heal themselves. I might try a Wish variant of this team, if you don't mind, and I'll get back to you.
  10. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    It is quite situational for me to be under Stealth Rock when switching in Gyarados on DDTar without Toxic Spikes set up, as theoretically I should have spun Stealth Rock away before I have to deal with Tyranitar. Again, in theory, once DDTar is revealed I *should* have Toxic Spikes set up. Protect Swampert will waste turns, as will switching between Gyarados (utilizing Intimidate), Swampert and Forretress to wear down Tyranitar, who will also suffer from Life Orb recoil damage.
  11. XxBlueCleric.xX

    XxBlueCleric.xX

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    Minor nitpick: Why not go with 16 SDef points on Calm Blissey since it nets you the bonus point to maximize overall defensiveness?

    The other issue resides with most last-poke stat-uppers. You have Jirachi and Latias covered by Swampert and Tyranitar, respectively, but how do you deal with stuff like last poke Curselax / Suicune?
    Also, why not use Reflect on Rotom over an offensive move? Your Rotom is completely vulnerable to a Pursuit KO by CB Scizor or CB Tyranitar. It's more likely that you face a CB Scizor with Pursuit than Rotom getting hit by a Trick from Jirachi.
    Lastly, instead of Focus Blast as the last move on Blissey, you could always run Toxic to hit Levitate/Flying dudes, but then again Tyranitar covers basically all of them.....

    Anyways, it's an awesome team. I've been looking at this team for several minutes trying to find something else that it could be weak to, but didn't find any...
  12. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    This team looks like it has some Mence issues, because outside of being able to intimidate and Roar it out with Gyara (which is SR weak and may be sleeping) or use Pert (which has no recovery and is leading) with Ice Beam, DDMence threatens it a lot.

    I'd suggest Ice Beam over Focus Blast on Blissey. If you aren't running any Special Attack, Focus Blast does 53% at best to 88 HP Tyranitar, which is still a 50% chance to 2ko with a slower Bliss against a Tyranitar that can rip it limb from limb. Ice Beam on Bliss gives some extra backup against Mence and other Dragon-types. I also second giving Blissey a 252 Def / 80 SpA / 176 SpD Bold spread, since it works better than the current one.

    Other than that, it's a solid looking team. I love the Scarfed Tyranitar use, and I might actually try it out myself some time.

    EDIT: Also, Jolly ScarfTar outspeeds Infernape, which gives you some insurance against it without TSpikes.
  13. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Right on the money with this. Feel free to use this team.

    It is indeed a worry, but how often does Snorlax turn up, let alone "last-poke" CurseLax?

    Scizor tend not to switch in to Rotom. Thankfully, I have Gyarados to deal with Scizor anyway; Rotom and Forretress can if need be. I'd much rather use WoW than Reflect; I'd rather deal with them there and then, rather than having Reflect prevent a OHKO.

    It is useful in some cases, but so is Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave will be more useful for Heatrans and Jirachis of the world.

    Blissey's EVs will be tampered with tommorow when I get home.

    Provided it doesn't have Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave (which is often becomming the case), yes, it can. I will consider Ice Beam as well. But Salamence is forced to Outrage on Gyarados, and I can then switch to Forretress on Outrage; Intimidate will have taken effect as well.
  14. george182

    george182

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    Don't get me wrong, this is probably a great team, but the name is misleading in my opinion:

    I have been waitin for a good sanstorm team that calls itself a stall team, now in my opnion, this should utalise sandstorm pack atleast two toxic user's and cradily/shuckle to become a sandstorm beast and wear the oponent down and "STALL" them out. Then have a sweeper to well sweep, when the going gets tough. You have none of this, I see toxic spikes, which is good. However, this in my opinion is not a stall team, but it is a good team, that utalises entry hazards and can counter spin blockers (good idea), and has a good team build.

    Swampert, is that working for you, I thought taunt shuts down his main role and is the most common move on leads and with his lack of speed, no speed ev's, he surely can't get up many stealth rocks. At least lead hippowdon garuntees sandstorm up.

    Next you call it a sandstorm team, you said yourself you save the sand for lategame, so I don't think it deserves that name either, and you don't have many people to benifit from the sand. I see forretrees, who only has payback as a way of damadging an oponent who stays in or levitates, and I also see three pokemon who are taking damadge from it, now this is not a sandstorm team. This is an entry hazard team. Am I wrong but in the lategame a frail sweeper is needed on any team, especially this team to clean up. Forrestres with both spikes, taking 5 turns to fully set up, who are you trying to kid, forretress might be abble to take 5 physical hit's, but then is unable to switch in on spikes and stealth to rapid spin, so need explosion really, and anyone can set up and prepare for a 6-0 sweep on your team, where as skarmory, no 4 times weakness and can wirlwind and has a reliable recover move, skarm cannot explode but you don't seem to take advantage of this anyway. Only t-tar gains from the sand, n it is his own ability, so it is sort a stapple, u need at least someone with sandveil or a rock type to gain a boost, or the move protect to add and extra turn of sandstorm. You sadly have none of this, and again should not call this a sandstorm stall team. I am also seeing a fighting type sweep your team, with an electic type to take car of gyrados, and rotom can be revenge killed.

    I'm new, so don't have a go at the new guy :), but do tell me if i'm barker up the wrong tree, overall I think it is a good ENTRY HAZARD team, I supsoe this adds to stall, could do with shuckle or a staller, and a sand starter and another roarer/wirlwinder to rack up passive damadge and call it a sandstorm stall team.

    I dunno, the team seems held together weakly and needs alot of changes to get a solid sandstorm team, which are acctually very difficult to make and should not be attemted because it is the easiest weather effect to set up and is resisted by many pokes, becuase you have not made use of the sandstorm, three pokemon are weak to it, you might aswel teach someone raindance, and teach rotom thunder, then he gains with hydro pump and thunder, becuase that is the equal to the bonus you are getting sandstorm and doesn't prevent leftovers recovery on three o you pokemon, many teams resist sandstorm better than you WITHOUT being abble to set it up. Hail storm teams manage to get full teams that all resist hail, which means everyone has to be part ice, ice only resist ice if i remeber, so it is hard to combine types, yet hail storm tems manage it, yet you have 3 types to chose from and other pokemon who's abilities imunise them from sandstorm, one type is the steel type with a million resistances, and rock types gaina spe def boost, which you have not take advanatage of

    So this is a message to all sandstorm staller teams, do not call it a sandstorm staller unless it actually tries to gain from sandstorm, in aidding a stall.
  15. lati0s

    lati0s

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    i guess you're right in most circumstance's you'll be able to handle it
  16. Star Shaper

    Star Shaper

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    Text wall. It's always good to see new people on smogon. Welcome.

    For future reference, stall commonly utilizes sand storm for the additional 6% damage per turn, not as a sole theme. The original poster refers to it as Tyranitar Stall because it is not often that stall teams utilize Tyranitar.

    Your ideas aren't by any means poor, but this is a completely different team.

    Actually, this is a pretty nice team too. Well constructed and has a nice switch into those pesky Tricks. I have a few suggestions.

    On Blissey, I would consider changing the EV spread to 252 Def/80 SpA/176 SpD, and going Bold. I'm fairly sure this provides overall better defenses, although Calm really helps out with the absolutely insane special damage output in Platinum. I would also go Thunderbolt/Flamethrower or Toxic/Softboiled/Wish for the moveset. Gyarados no longer switches in, you deal with Empoleon, among other things. Flamethrower hits, as you are well aware, Forretress and Scizor while Toxic punishes other common switch ins, most notably Tyranitar and Salamence. Salamence usually can't afford to stay in between 10% + SS + Toxic damage building, while Protect on Swampert only increases the effectiveness of countering TTar that has Toxic.

    If you do use Toxic on Blissey, I would drop Toxic Spikes on Forretress. It's honestly pretty rare that Toxic Spikes hits more than two pokemon on a team now anyways. Explosion/EQ help a whole lot. Explosion gives you a weapon against Outraging Salamence, while EQ punish Lucario who think they can get a free SD and only take a 4x resisted Payback, and Heatran who switch in thinking the same. Regardless of the "I can predict around Heatran" logic, it is always a huge special threat. It can carry Hidden Power Grass in Swampert's case, Gyarados takes 25% switching in and could be asleep, and it can Explode on Blissey. That extra tool is really game changing; switching into Heatran and Lucario is a pain each time, no matter how many resistances you have.

    Aside from those small edits, I wouldn't do anything with the team. You're gonna wanna watch out for Sub/DD Kingdra though. If it comes in on a Gyara Rest, you have to hope Sleep Talk selects roar because Waterfall isn't doing anything and your current Forretress doesn't do enough before Waterfall becomes a pain to take:\

    Good luck.
  17. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    The title is misleading? I don't see how. It is stall with a technical advantage in Tyranitar; I didn't claim this to be a Sand Stream team. The brackets which held "TTS!" should not be taken seriously, hence the "!". It was just a coincidence that the title's initials read as "TTS"; nothing more and nothing less.

    What...?

    Team related: I have changed Toxic Spikes out for Rest, and refined Blissey's EVs into the one suggested by Chris.
  18. 6A9 Ace Matador

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    Taylor, please stick with 252 defence, 40 sp atk or hp, 216 special defence calm blissey. DPP has an insane amount of special attacking power, and that blissey can outstall calm minders with 6 cms, as well as take things like Specs cario aura spheres easily. The change between bold to calm is only 11 stat points, which is really not worth it, in comparison to 396 special defence, 119 defence you acheive with the set i listed. Also, use Seizmic toss over toxic so you can break the subs of Sub Cm'ers and toxic them! It's also better for predicting and doing chunks to sweepers on the oposing team.

    Rotom should be specialy defensively orientated, with 252 hp, 160 sp def, 96 defence + calm for magic number. this set allows him to still wall the majority of physical threats it would still be walling, as well as stay sturdy for anti anti spinners such as Hydro pump rapid spin starmie.

    Give Gyarados 4 speed evs, for the faster roar, and opt for Impish forretress, with the same evs. (I think i recomended that forret set, i'm not sure. In any case, impish does better on that team). Also, GIVE FORRET LEFTOVERS AHHHH I can not stress how much he needs lefties. With no wish support, he will be dying with barley no spikes up, or no spin ._.; Your evs guarentee timid hp fire from zone never ohko anyway, so why not ?_?.
    With forret, bring him in, then go to blissey straight away to scout for magnezone, that should be a good measure should you chose to run lefties!
  19. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    I'll test the suggestions with regards to Blissey and Rotom-w. Gyarados now has 4 Speed EVs; I cannot understand why I didn't do that in the first place.

    I will not opt for Leftovers on Forretress because I don't want to "fanny" around scouting for Magnezone when I can lay Spikes with little to no effort required. With Rest and Blissey's support, Leftovers has become unfavorable.
  20. ToF

    ToF
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    Might be really minor, but your team prototype as of now looks like you lose to opposing stall with the change from Toxic Spikes to Rest. Yes the metagame is predominantly Steel-oriented, but there are still important Pokemon that are handled by Toxic Spikes, including opposing Blissey and Celebi.

    If you look at your team at a glance, Tyranitar covers the reasons for having Payback on Forretress: to hit opposing Ghosts and Starmie. Why not run Toxic Spikes over Payback on Forretress? It would really help wear down opposing stall teams faster, and with Tyranitar covering the reasons for having Payback, I see no reason why it shouldn't be done.

    Other than that, this team is very solid, and I've enjoyed playtesting it for a few matches. Good work as usual dude.
  21. Taylor

    Taylor stardust infinite
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    Cheers, mate.

    I suppose I will test Forretress without Payback; instead of predicting with Payback, I will switch in Tyranitar.
  22. Styx

    Styx

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    yea i agree Twist of Fate on dropping payback for toxicspikes... only because you could use the turn your predicting to use payback to lay down Tspikes leval 1 then just rest and Pull out bliss.Ttar for rotom,Gengar,Starmie, well you no..

    yea this team looks really solid and scarf tyranitar and stab pursuit =X now thats a great idea

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