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Uber Pokemon of the Week #5: Zekrom

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Zaon, Dec 16, 2012.

  1. Organization Member XIV

    Organization Member XIV

    Oct 22, 2012
    Lugia is truly the Great Wall. It really doesn't need offense when it has 5 other teammates for that. Reliable recovery, phazing, ability to break shit down with Toxic is just urgh. Steels are annoying though as they are immune to Toxic. Multiscale is obnoxious as F**k, although this can be solved by statusing Lugia as Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are very rare in Ubers. But yeah, the set above specifically looks annoying to anything not named Steelceus.
  2. trickroom

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2009
    Lugia isn't really the best wall this generation because it simply sits there and phaze. Unlike Giratina it does not block spin, which is crucial for almost any team. No team will want their hazards removed, and Lugia just invites them all, any Rapid Spinner can come in for free on Lugia unless you use surprise moves such as Weather Ball in the sun to KO Forretress or Hydro Pump in rain to smash Excadrill.

    That said, Lugia has huge bulk and can sort of check Extremekiller, if Stealth Rock is up, Lugia will likely lose unless it gets a chance to use Roost. I think fast Lugia has a better chance this time thanks to Multiscale, and it beats Swords Dance Rayquaza better. If you are max Speed, you can wall any slower Latias or Latios thanks to Roost and non Scarf Terrakion will lose to you, especially when you are carrying Reflect. Bold Lugia loses to Sword Dance Rayquaza with V-Create if Stealth Rock is up, which is a pretty common situation.

    Having mixed bulk is nice, but Lugia's role can be substituted by others who do more than walling, usually in the form of Arceus. For example, Fighting Arceus can hit things hard directly, epecially those dangerous to stall such as Excadrill and Dialga. Lugia simply lacks the offenses and utility of some other pokemon, and sheer bulk and phazing are the only things going for it.

    No other wall can match Lugia's bulk, especially with Multiscale, and it is one of the few walls who can outstall Ho-Oh, as long as you use Reflect and Pressure. Immunity to Spikes is a bonus but you are forced to use Substitute to avoid status and Leech Seed.

    I think Calm Mind Lugia is a pretty good set simply because it gives Lugia some sort of offense while phazing at the same time. Most Calm Mind users simply cannot overpower Lugia as you phaze them out, such as Mewtwo, Latias or some Kyogre without Thunder. Regardless of what Lugia uses, something will wall it hard so Whirlwind is a good move even on Calm Mind sets. Multiscale lets it grab the first boost even easier, but you must realize Lugia has lousy offenses and just Aeroblast as its powerful STAB. Psyshock is weak and things that stop Lugia usually laughs at it, such as Zekrom, Tyranitar, Excadrill and Forretress.

    Kyurem-W wasn't fun for Lugia either, unless you are running Light Screen, once you are at 100%, you can no longer Roost on Ice Beam and Specs ones will OHKO you. Scarf 2hKOes Lugia regardless although Genesect is safely walled outside of boosted Thunders. Kyurem-B isn't a big threat because Lugia outruns it and can throw up a Reflect before it gets to attack. Latias isn't really threatening to Lugia but it can annoy it with Thunders.
  3. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    So I've been trying to build a classic Stall team (because I loves Stall) around a Chansey + Lugia core because they have such enormous bulk that they wall a majority of the metagame without the need for resistances. At least, this is what I thought until I found out only Chansey fits this description. As cool as he is, Lugia is a horrible wall IMO. When I was calcing to find a good spread for Lugia to beat EKiller (thinking fast MS with Reflect would do it as TR mentioned) I came to realize that as long as SR is up, Lugia loses. In the case of EKiller, if you are slower than him he hits too hard with Shadow Claw for Lugia to reliably wall him whereas if you are faster you have given up too much bulk to tank his ESpeeds.
    Ekiller Calcs (open)

    +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 205-243 (49.27 - 58.41%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia through Reflect: 102-121 (24.51 - 29.08%) -- possible 5HKO

    So outside of low roll Lugia loses if SR is up. This is also ignoring the standard LO set who always beats Lugia if SR is up.

    +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia: 259-306 (62.25 - 73.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lugia through Reflect: 129-153 (31 - 36.77%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    Well, I can't Roost and Reflect on the turn so Lugia isn't winning.

    This realisation got me thinking, what does Lugia reliably wall? Rayquaza wins with SD/DD if Lugia is Great Wall/SpeedScale. Groudon loses unless he hits Lugia with Para or CB Stone Edge. Lugia can beat Zek with Roost + Reflect + Pressure if he manages to not waltz in on a Bolt Strike. Ho-Oh loses even if Sun is up so that's cool. Blaze, on the other hand, outspeeds and may have SD as Lugia came in so we'll need rain to beat that. Kabutops wrecks Lugia easily with Stone Edge. After that there are lesser offensive threats that I won't even bother considering. (they are good mons but normally aren't 6-0ing teams) All in all, Lugia is looking like a pretty mediocre wall which is pretty darn bad when you are such horrible Spikes fodder and open to status. I was getting pretty depressed at this point to see such a cool Pokemon (I like the shiny) turn out to be a pretty crummy Stall mon when he is supposed to be the poster boy for bulk. I was hoping to find something that could take his place and I realized that if I give the exact same EV spread to Arceus he has MORE physical bulk than Lugia. Seeing Arceus as has far superior typing, support movepool, speed and offensive stats/movepool I've concluded that the only legitimate reason to use Lugia as your physical wall is so that you don't have to use Arceus. (who's a major eyesore and has a lot of other things you could have him doing) So yeah, from now on I'm going to be using Arceus as part of my cores in my Stall teams (Not too happy about it though) as Lugia has way too many flaws to do his job. (I wish he was Steel/Flying, then he would be E.MAZE.ING)

    I didn't want to leave Lugia in the dust though so I've been doing a bit of research to try and find a niche set Lugia can use to set it apart from Arceus. The only things Lugia has going for it at the moment are Multiscale, double phazing, massive special bulk and, to some extent, Leftovers (unless you decide to use WallCeus). Sadly, Lugia's typing bites him in the butt again as a special wall as can't counter faster threats that pack SE coverage moves like Mewtwo. (who is countered by Physical Arceus under rain :( ) That leaves Multiscale (which can be abused with Magic Bounce PTR style but I'm not a big fan of that strat) while double phazing can be used for a speed shuffling set. I decided to test the RestShuffle set as it was something Arceus couldn't do while solving a lot of typical problems for Lugia. Rest cures Lugia of crippling status while Sleep Talk lets Lugia phaze out those pesky spinners and spikers before they can do anything. Although it is reliant on 66% dice rolls, Lugia's natural bulk and intact Multiscale (thanks Rest) helps give him a buffer against hax. Here's the results of my short bit of testing.

    Test Team (open)

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spd
    - Scald
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic
    - Softboiled
    - Stealth Rock

    Skarmory (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind
    - Roost
    - Spikes

    Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 176 HP / 60 Atk / 252 SDef / 20 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Rapid Spin

    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Dragon Tail
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Whirlwind
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    From a team building perspective this set encounters its first flaw with its inability to provide essential support for team. Lugia isn't really lending a hand to the rest of the team, he's just profiting from Stalls ability to control the hazards game to troll the opposing team. Although he can do it successfully, it puts a crunch on team building as you are essentially trying to build a stall team with only 5 members. This explains my lack of revenge killer in this team example team. (I tried it with a Scarfer over a blocker but got annoyed that it became doubly important to beat down those spinners in spite of the ease with which the team could lay hazards) A different build can probably fit all the roles in but it's going to be a bit crunched.

    Here are some replays showing how Lugia isn't bad at what he does:

    and here's one showing why TR stuck him in OO


    I'm pretty depressed to see Lugia's true colors, if only he wasn't getting one-uped by stupid Arceus I would feel a lot better. (Maybe that Y bird will be the much desired bulky Steel/Flying?)
  4. polop

    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Apr 29, 2011
    Yeah, the SR weakness really sucks for Lugia, Classic stall uses Forry for a reason... IF Sr isn't up Lugia actually beats Extremekiller lol. Rayquaza stilll is annoying since it has a decent chance to 2HKO without rocks if Lugia Reflects the turn after it uses its first move (just saying this is the reason why some Lugia run Reflect + Ice Beam + Whirlwind).

    Speed Shuffler is IMO one of Lugia's worser sets. I like the physically defensive set. Unlike Wall Arceus you have Pressure which makes it hilariously easy to stall stuff like Sacred Fire and Spacial Rend (this is why its such an amazing user of Sub Roost, compared to Arceus at least) . Lugia can bypass Forry and Excadrill, look at Trickroom's post but using that move generally just makes it harder for Lugia to wall stuff :(.

    You basically summarized the argument as to why everyone was hesitant to make Lugia have its own tier lol. Just saying though, running Scarf Kyogre > Rest Talk Ogre patches up the revenge killer problem, besides you already had two decent physical walls with reliable recovery in Lugia and Skarmory. This is called "compressing" (I would pull up Poppy's guide but I lack the link to his teambuilding thread).
  5. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    Yeah, I know that I could have switched Ogre to Scarf and other such changes. It was just a test team to see how well SpeedShuffler would work so I ignored the obvious flaws for the 10 or so battles I did with it as long as I got to see the set in action. (Cause I wanted to find some legitimate niche for Lugia)

    Yeah but Arceus has no problem stalling out these attacks, anyways. Pressure is cool and all but that is a really small price to pay to avoid packing something with such a bad typing.

    I was aware of Weather Ball, however that is weather reliant and gives up other important options like you said. Arceus doesn't really have this problem as he doesn't need Reflect as much as Lugia as he doesn't have to make up for a quarter of his HP being lost to SR. Plus, he actually has the movepool and attacking stats to reliably beat the spinners. (Plus you can make him a ghost type to block spin)
  6. trickroom

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2009
    I love Lugia but the fact is it is pretty shit when it comes to providing team support, like what Melee Mewtwo posted.

    Arceus loses to Mewtwo with Aura Sphere, so it doesn't really wall it in rain unless you are Dark/Psychic Arceus. Lugia can still take +1 Ice Beam and survive, phaze Mewtwo out but at that point, Lugia will be near useless, anything else faster will kill it. Stealth Rock also hurts Lugia a lot but you have to remember Arceus hates Spikes and Toxic Spikes, both of which when added together does more damage than Stealth Rock.

    Spikes immune is just a small advantage Lugia has over Arceus but Arceus does not attract Spikes users as much anyway. I won't say Lugia is simply garbage at the moment because it has some use, but your team has to be made to support it. Something to setup Spikes, Stealth Rock and although not necessary, Lugia will work much better with Rapid Spin support.

    Lugia's typing has some use actually, it beats Calm Mind Grass, Fighting, Ground and Psychic Arceus with Toxic and Roost. Shaymin-S is stopped by Lugia as well. Arceus loses due to lower special bulk and neutrality to their STABs. The huge list of weakness blows but it also gives Lugia the ability to check Giratina-O better. Even Calm Mind Shadow Ball Giratina-O can struggle to get past Lugia if you are carrying your own Calm Mind or Multiscale. Dragon Tail Giratina-O will annoy Arceus much more than Lugia because of the Spikes weak Arceus has. Just saying Kabutops can't OHKO Lugia, assuming no boost

    Lugia can also wall Latios lacking Thunder or not in the rain. Latias is walled the same way, while Dialga has trouble with Lugia unless it is raining and even that can be foiled by Roost. Any paralysis occurs and Lugia will likely lose. Palkia needs either Choice Specs/Lustrous Orb or Thunder in rain to beat Lugia, otherwise it too is walled. Arceus loses to even Scarf Surf in rain.

    Speed Shuffler set is pretty reliant on luck, 66% isn't close to perfect and even Dragon Tail can miss lol. Also, Stealth Rock messes it up a lot, you lose reliable recovery, one of Lugia's greatest asset over Groudon/Giratina as a wall and Rest is a horrible way to recover when you have better choices available. Sleep Talk phazing is only great versus some stall teams who lack a wall to hurt Lugia but you will now lose to a lot more offensive pokemon.
  7. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    I probably should have mentioned earlier that when I say Arceus I mean any of his forms. Sorry for the confusion. (Although, I will probably be using Ghostceus for a majority of my examples as I like him best at the moment.)

    Mewtwo Calcs (open)
    252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 165-195 (37.16 - 43.91%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Arceus-Ghost: 175-207 (39.41 - 46.62%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Arceus-Ghost: 263-309 (59.23 - 69.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    (I'm thinking of running 200 def as 56 speed let Ghostceus outrun SDRay and wipe it out with Ice Beam.)

    So you have a solid Mewtwo counter without having to resort to checks like support Darkceus that have poor general usefulness.

    Spikes immunity is a small advantage as not every team uses them and you still need to have 2 layers + SR before Arceus before Arceus starts to take more entry damage. (Unless you choose a SR resistant type in which case you need full layers) Being open to T Spikes is almost and advantage as it means you can throw out Arceus on a single layer so as to avoid any Toxics that would really cripple it. Plus, you can use the same support you use for Lugia and get better results out of Arceus.

    Mixed bulk is something Lugia has going for it. However, that SR weakness still cripples it from being a very good switch-in to a majority of special attackers. Additionally, it is better to have a more reliable physical wall when it comes to building cores as Arceus + Chansey handles threats a lot better than Lugia + Chansey.

    Special Calcs (open)

    252 SpA Palkia Thunder vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 190-224 (45.67 - 53.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Palkia Surf vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia in rain: 169-199 (40.62 - 47.83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    (So Lugia can't switch into ScarfKia under rain, either.)

    252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 222-262 (53.36 - 62.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    -2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 111-132 (26.68 - 31.73%) -- possible 4HKO

    Kabutops (open)

    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 273-322 (65.62 - 77.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia in rain: 164-192 (39.42 - 46.15%) -- 98.44% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    (So Lugia can't safely switch into Kabutops)

    Lugia suffers from Cube Syndrome, you are almost always better off running a defensive Arceus form with the exception of a few niche circumstances where Lugia's handful of minor advantages makes it a better pick.

    I also agree that Speed Shuffler is a pretty crummy set. I was just trying to find a semi-legitimate niche for the poor guy which is why I made sure to mention his faults and include a video showcasing his justified OO status so as to not mislead readers. (it does get Roar as well as Whirlwind if you want to avoid any extra DTail hax)

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