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[Uber Team]

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Jibaku, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Seriously, no fancy titles needed.
    ************************************************

    [Uber Metagame Overview and Message]
    The uber metagame at the moment is in a fairly stale position. It really revolves around Specs Kyogre, Scarf Palkia, Swords Dance / Dragon Dance Rayquaza (mostly Swords Dance), Rock Polish Groudon and Nasty Plot Darkrai, and often leading with suicide Deoxys leads. For over a month the uber metagame hasn't shifted its position from the offensive, and at this point even I end up failing trying shift the metagame a bit. Message is, if a group of people are willing to come together and think of ideas that will revolutionize it, it will be great (nothing Baton Pass related please)

    As for me...I haven't suceeded in creating anything new and worthwhile. I came up with a few things but I'm really unsure if they would work and stuff. In this time anyways, it's probably better for me to go with the flow and attempt to make an offensive team. I'm pretty sure most of you are aware that I have issues doing so, which is why I come to this RMT...to ask for help as I'm really not the offensive type (and I'm not the stall type either).
    ************************************************

    [Team at a glance]
    Without Pictures!

    [DEOXYS-S / GIRATINA-O / PALKIA / GROUDON / SCIZOR / KYOGRE]

    Note this message before going off and pointing some stuff out from my team. I have purposely crossed out a few Pokemon's EV section, because I have no intent in changing them.

    [TEAM]
    Will not have pictures at the moment.

    Deoxys-S @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 192 HP / 66 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Extremespeed
    - Taunt
    - Spikes
    - Stealth Rock

    ************************************************
    THE suicide lead in today's metagame. With insane Speed it outruns almost everything in there. This is THE reason, if Deoxys-A is not counted, that Scarf Darkrai and the rare Scarf Azelf often takes a lead in the uber metagame as well. Stealth Rock is really obvious here...the move itself is quite dominant in the uber metagame as it quickly brings things down into kill ranges in this hyperoffensive metagame. If the chance is presented, Spikes can be launched into the opponent's team to further limit chances of switching in, and 18.75% to 25% damage per switch actually puts a whole lot of dent in an uber team. ExtremeSpeed is not a filler by the way. While it seems strange to use such a move when it is already the fastest Pokemon in the uber metagame, ExtremeSpeed disposes of Deoxys-A and allows me to get a hit on Darkrai (if I wish) before it puts it to Sleep.

    Now I suppose you wonder why I EVed Deoxys-S this way. The EVs allow Deoxys-S to survive two ExtremeSpeeds from 459 Attack Deoxys-A, allowing for Stealth Rock set up while still killing it, and should the opponent have no more priority Pokemon I can set up Spikes as well before Deoxys-S dies. If they do then I can switch out and then use Deoxys-S later on in the game to set up one last Spikes or use him as a death bait. While my ES no longer has enough power to OHKO Deoxys-A, the thing usually carries Sash anyways so ES wouldn’t have OHKOed it regardless.
    ************************************************

    Giratina-O @ Platinum Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: ...
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder
    - Substitute

    ************************************************
    I have yet to see an RMT with this thing, so this is almost unique. Giratina-O is really underused and I kinda don't know why...maybe its because of its Platinum Orb restriction...or maybe the base 90 Speed. People should use him more; he is definitely not as bad as you all might perceive him to be.

    Anyways, enough about my rant. Giratina-O serves as my equivalent to a Rock Polish Groudon (kind of). This is since Giratina-O often kills a guy before he dies, and then he can later on be used as a death bait. It may be really hard to set up through a metagame where many things hit him super effectively, but it's not impossible. Stuff like Specs Ogre's Surf (if they're slower), and Palkia's Scarf Surf can be CMed on and then I can get a free Sub that won't break allowing Gira to get a possible double kill, which is great. Giratina-O helps break stall (you might have to think outside the box for this to happen though; Gira is probably not going to completely sweep a stall team when compared to Ghost Arceus...). He serves as my Levitator and blocks Rapid Spin and Explosion. Blocking Spin is really nice though as Deo will be wasted otherwise if Forry comes out.

    Moveset is kind of self explanatory. Calm Mind is for boosting and making unbreakable subs (don’t argue with my logic on this; it takes advantage of many people’s fear factor a lot). Dragon Pulse should really not be explained. Thunder is mainly for Kyogre who is extremely common and Calm Minded Thunder can OHKO Kyogre after SR (and guaranteed after two SR/1 SR+Spikes).
    ************************************************

    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Spacial Rend
    - Thunder
    - Surf

    ************************************************
    Scarf Palkia…I’m pretty sure you all know about it. Revenge killer and Water Spout “absorber”. With Timid nature it outruns DDRay if it has one DD and is Jolly, and ties with other Palkias at worst. While I would really like to try out other things like Bulk Up Palkia, Scarf seems to fit my team best, especially when you consider that it’s really not so fast.

    Spacial Rend is a good STAB and is his main attack, despite the 8 PP…Thunder is mainly for Kyogre, although I must admit I rarely use it, but it does come in handy sometimes. Surf so I don’t get walled by Recover Mewtwo…lol. Also sometimes become a more reliable option than Draco Meteor in the rain. I’m considering Outrage over Draco Meteor at the moment, which I suppose can help me stop some Latias from running over my team should Scizor die. I really don’t like Fire Blast…sure it hits Scizor super effectively and works nicely in the Sun, but attracting a free Kyogre switch in kinda defeats the purpose of this Pokemon.

    I apologize if there is not enough detail on this thing, but really there isn’t much to describe. I originally had Mewtwo in this spot, but he wasn't fast enough unfortunately and I needed someone to take a Spout.
    ************************************************

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drought
    EVs: …
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Thunder Wave
    - Swords Dance

    ************************************************
    Weather changer and Rayquaza counter…kinda. Can survive a Swords Danced Life Orb Waterfall from a Jolly Rayquaza and KO it back with Stone Edge (this is with Air Lock calculated in; I’m not stupid). Whereas people run Rock Polish Groudon everyday, I decided to use something different, and SD Groudon is still pretty amazing. Thunder Wave is an amazing support move and it makes Lugia sad, and helps with my team’s slowness (well not THAT slow), and Swords Dance is there when I get the chance to, and it can actually sweep despite its slowness and whatnot. Stone Edge is for Lugia mostly; I doubt it likes taking a Swords Danced Stone Edge after taking a Stealth Rock, and it is definitely not going to stall it out unless it misses every time and Lugia has a Reflect and is not paralyzed yadah yadah. Rock resist, helps take on Dialga who kind of gives me problems. Magnet Risers can be paralyzed and then as it descends from Magnet Rise it can take an Earthquake. It probably won’t die though due to the bulk gotten from Bulk Up, but I guess it dents it hard enough for Palkia and Kyogre to kill it. It takes Dialga 2 Bulk Ups to 2HKO Groudon with Outrage, and it is probably going to get haxed with paralysis so chances of it getting a sweep against my team fairly rare. I could of course decide to play safe and use Bulk Up over Swords Dance just so that his Outrage does lol, but I like Swords Dance for the faster Attack boost.
    ************************************************

    Scizor @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 246 HP / 16 Atk / 248 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Pursuit / Brick Break
    - Bullet Punch
    - Roost

    ************************************************
    Dragon resist…kind of a Latias counter as well. It is pretty bulky and can survive quite a bit of stuff despite that base 70 HP and 80 SDef…which are repaired by the EVs and its amazing typing. Bullet Punch enables Scizor to pick off a weakened opponent, and in this fast paced offensive metagame it proves itself to be essential to Scizor’s set. U-turn is obviously essential since it scouts for counters and I can often bring in Specs Ogre after the U-turn. U-turn also badly damages Darkrai, Mewtwo and Latias, and puts them way past their kill range (maybe not on Mewtwo, though…) for Palkia’s attacks. U-turn is something I can kind of rely on should I not be in the mood for Deoxys-S speed ties, as it lessens the disadvantageous position (they would only be able to get one SR up and no Spikes). Pursuit can catch fleeing choiced Palkias and Kyogres stuck on Spacial Rend and Ice Beam respectively, and with Spikes and Stealth Rock it puts a lot of pain onto them. I am considering Brick Break, however, because it breaks screens and dents Dialga switch ins.

    Now I have my own reasons to pick these EVs and item choice. First of all, the ordinary uber trapper Scizor is honestly not bulky enough to fit my team. I need something that doesn’t die in two Thunders from Latias, and the HP EVs also help when taking Outrages from Giratina-O or something. U-turn and Life Orb is a pretty bad combination imo, because 1) If you kill something with U-Turn, your opponent gets a free switch in to counter your replacement Pokemon. This can be good sometimes but it is bad for the most part, and 2) you still get Life orb damage after U-turning to someone which can limit your chances of switching back in, especially with rocks up. Losing a lot of power doesn’t really phase me because my team has a substantial amount of power already and I’d much prefer the bulk on Scizor who’s place in my team is to absorb moves like Spacial Rend, something that the normal Life Orb trapper struggles to do with no Lefties recovery, forcing it to Roost a lot, and Life Orb damage from U-turn which gives it problems switching in. EVs allow it to survive 2 Thunders without SR factored in from a 307 SA Latias, but people generally don’t run that much so I have better chance of surviving. With SR being common, though, this might not be an easy task. You need at least 271 SA on Latias, I believe, to even have the smallest non haxed chance to 2HKO Scizor with Thunder after Stealth Rock damage…I really don’t know how much people run these days. I can try to maneuver around it with the Sun I guess. But the bulk is still really handy.
    ************************************************

    Kyogre @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 6 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Water Spout
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder
    - Surf

    ************************************************
    This guy really needs no explaining moveset wise, although I could use Hydro Pump over Surf for power and 2HKOing Mew after a Screen. Second weather changer, insanely powerful killer and sets a huge fear factor in the opponent. The safest non Shedinja thing you can send into this is Latias, who gets 2HKOed by Ice Beam and can get picked off by Scizor. Can destroy a Mew behind a screen as well, assuming I have enough health for Water Spout and/or if Mew has no Leftovers. Counters CM Thunderless Ogre, Ho-oh and everytime it gets in it puts a big dent onto the opposition, and it often gets the chance to with the help of Scizor’s U-turn. I will remind you that Specs 100% HP Water Spout is just as powerful than an unboosted Explosion from a 405 Attack Metagross. I’m not kidding go run the calcs yourself.

    Timid nature is used because it outruns 99% of the Groudons and many Modest Specs Ogres.
    ************************************************


    I’m not really going to put in a threat list here, but I have some problems against RP Groudons who switch into choiced Thunders. My ways of dealing with it currently involves my own Groudon, Giratina-O and Scizor’s Bullet Punch (against a severely weakened one). I suppose Dialga can give me problems as well. Maniac also stated that my team has problems against Shedinja if SR gets Spun away as Giratina-O dies, but that’s very unlikely to happen I hope :/

    [Last words]
    I theorized a Forry set that can be used as a lead to destroy the Deoxys leads. SR/Rapid Spin/Explosion/Gyro Ball @ Focus Sash. Runs into Thunder problems but people don’t use Thunder anymore for an odd reason so it might just work. If someone could please test this out I’d be very happy
    ************************************************
  2. Fatal Edge

    Fatal Edge

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    T.T 'tis beautiful. Actually I just looked at the pics, I mean text =P

    Have you had any trouble with MewTwo? I can see it causing some havoc about this team since you are providing it with the sun to OHKO Scizor and even in the rain Flamethrower comes close to a KO.

    I would try Ho-Oh over Kyogre. At least it abuses the sun and is enough to get a KO. Or you can try making Kyogre a RestTalkCM Variant so it can take it on reasonably.

    Hope that helps to the slightest bit. I stopped playing ubers because like 5 people a day play and it takes forever to get a match.
  3. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    I suppose Mewtwo could be problematic, but with Stealth Rock beind so common nowadays Ho-oh isn't going to be able to switch into Mewtwo at all, especially if it has Thunder. Replacing Kyogre with Ho-oh would also mean I lose the strongest Pokemon in my team, and losing Rain support also weakens Palkia and Giratina-O
  4. Olie

    Olie

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    I'm just curious... why does Giratina-O not have any EVs?

    Great team btw, I'm totally holding onto a copy.

    and groudon...
  5. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    Your team looks great, though I feel that Tyranitar could possible go in over Scizor, he can change the weather, take Electric/Dragon/Normal/Dark special moves that are rampart in Ubers (well maybe not normal). He kills the Lati@s twins and serves as (to an extent) Palkia counter, not saying you don't have one, but without relying on a speed tie of your own Palkia.

    Just a thought.
  6. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Olie
    It does have EVs, but the thing is unless I'm changing the set completely I'm not going to change the EVs. This also gives the element of mystery on it.

    Gen
    I thought of TTar over Scizor...but putting Tar over Scizor means I lose a priority user and Sandstorm hurts Giratina-O. I also lose something to switch into Toxic and Tar leaves my team weak to lategame Deoxys-A whose existence can not be forgotten despite the fact that most are leads.
  7. Fatal Edge

    Fatal Edge

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    Well in that case it looks solid. I just noticed the extremely bulky EV's on Scizor. When I saw Scizor I automatically assumed it was the trapper set. That set may be better...

    The slightest nitpick but Jolly Lowers SAtk =P.
  8. Matthew

    Matthew I love weather; Sun for days
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    Oh wow didn't notice the extreme Bulky set, my apologies.

    Well then I see no complaints in this team, though BP Mew with Screens to Groudon owns you

    *cough*
  9. Markizzle

    Markizzle

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    i think its because his groudon and Tina-O have some secret EVs that allow them to survive like 5 SpecsKyogre Ice Beams, while OHKOing Lugia with Shadow Force/Stone Edge all the time

    i dunno, i just made that up, but Tyranitar also counts for a dragon resist, although not at the level of steel types. You could go with Tyranitar, however Tyranitar lacks recovery which is the goal of your Scizor with Roost, and Tyranitar also gets eaten alive by Groudon/Kyogre, and even Rayquaza/Mewtwo

    Scizor, on the other hand always has the option to Uturn out, and has a priority move, which can also prove to be useful. Another thing that Scizor has is Toxic immunity, and plus it can trap DeoxyA should it come back out later after leading, where as Tyranitar might just get Superpowered.

    Also, your team seems a bit SDRayquaza weak, as everything is either slower(everything besides lead/Palkia) or cant take a +2 Xspeed(everything besides Groudon, and Scizor, who loses to a Rayquaza carrying Overheat, or even if it decides to EQ/Xspeed)

    altho the good news is, with an offensive team, you dont really allow anything to set up without taking a hit, as I see the only thing Rayquaza can come in on is Palkia Surf, or if it feels lucky one of the Thunders on your team. That being said, nothing can really switch into Rayquaza either, because it could always decide to Dragon Claw right away, and Palkia being the only thing faster than it doesnt really help.

    EDIT: If Groudon can take a +2 LO Waterfall, then it could stop Rayquaza, but not if Rayquaza decides to attack right away. With Groudon as your only Rayquaza stopper, where its either stop or get busted, things dont look too good, like what if Groudon has to come in on Metagross/Scizor beforehand and already took some damage.

    As someone mentioned before, Mewtwo can probably sweep this team if you allow it, but luckily you have Scarf Palkia, which is really the thing thats holding this team together because its so slow.

    While building an offensive team means you dont really counter other offensive teams, you sort of meet them head-on, I suppose leaving out a few threats is passable, but Mewtwo and Rayquaza are the wrong threats to be overlooking.

    Something like Scarf Dialga could help out against SDRay, but then you'd have to give up Scarf Palkia, so really its a choice between if you want to stop SDRay or DDRay, as stated by yourself, the metagame continues to revolve around Rayquaza, both SD and DD versions, perhaps moreso than the other threats.
  10. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    There is one logical explanation: Markizzle is Seph in disguise

    J/k

    Anyways
    Rayquaza can pose problems, and definitely can end the team if Groudon is previously damaged. However, Rayquaza still finds itself hugely troubled to sweep because switching in is very tough due to Stealth Rock, so he only has one chance and he better do use well. Often times, Ray doesn't even have Waterfall, which could mean I do a better job at destroying him. Palkia, after a Stealth Rock, has a 63.5% chance of surviving a Life Orbed Swords Danced ExtremeSpeed from Jolly Ray. I suppose I could always drop some Special Attack into Defense for this.

    Also using ScarfDialga might leave me open to Specs Ogre destruction because I have nothing to switch into Spout (Dialga takes a really crazy amount from Spout).

    Mewtwo's chances of sweeping this team is pretty rare, but it does give me problems. Firstly, it can't switch into anything without taking major damage. However, it can come in after kills so ugh. Under the rain Life Orb Mewtwo can't OHKO Scizor with Flamethrower (it can with Fire Blast though), so obviously without that move Scizor beats it up (unless its physical wall Mewtwo). I mean there really isn't much you can do to stop Life Orb Mewtwo unless you have Blissey. Giratina-O can block Mewtwo if it doesn't have Ice Beam, and I've seen a few that run Selfdestruct over Beam to get rid of Latias.
  11. Markizzle

    Markizzle

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    I actually did not know Palkia stood a chance at all against +2 XSpeed, with SR, but shoudnt you worry a tiny bit if the other team gets 1 layer of spikes down, then with SDQuaza, its GG

    Assuming Mewtwo does run the Train Man set(its probably not his, but I'll call it that)

    which is, BTW,
    Mewtwo @ Life Orb
    -Grass Knot
    -Aura Sphere
    -Ice Beam
    -Fire Blast

    I know for a fact that Drugged Fox also uses the same set, so its not as uncommon as some may suggest

    yea so that set can probably 5-0 your team if Scarf Palkia is down. SpecsOgre has a decent shot at surviving Mewtwo Grass Knot if you add some bulk into him, I mean I dont think you need 252 Speed Timid, he'll still be slow as hell, I think 244-250 range is enough to outrun TTar/Jirachi, or you could go no speed

    as for opposing SpecsOgre, you'd actually do better if you werent so slow, I mean if ur hidden Groudon/Tina-O EV spreads outrun Kyogre, you shouldnt have a problem with it.

    SpecsKyogre, perhaps more than anything else is probably most effective at OHKOing the defensive pokemon, like Bronzong, Skarmory, Forrestress.
    Also anything slower, like TTar, Metagross, and Scizor. It just so happens that few things besides Palkia can switch into a full power Water Spout, but with your team, SpecsKyogre can only put you on the defensive if it comes in on Scizor, or if your stuck on Surf on Palkia/ Ice Beam on Kyogre

    Again, if you're going offensive, you might as well run a fast team, SpecsOgre cant Spout against fast opponents, and then Surf becomes a little more managable.

    Of course, Im just stating the obvious here, so test out some things, and Im not Seph, nor do I know who Seph is.

    I heard hes a great battler, but I wonder if hes still active?
  12. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Actually it won't 5-0...it will KO one or two guys at most. That means I go and send in Gira on an NVE move or something, throw a Dragon Pulse at it, sacrifice it, send in Scizor, Bullet Punch and KO it.

    I suppose I probably don't need Ogre to be Timid, but it gives that insurance against other Specs Ogres (unless they tie) which is always nice. Plus it outruns Groudon too. IIRC Polish Groudons run 247 Speed at minimum to outrun Scarf Palkia after a Rock Polish, so I'd definitely have to run more. I'd probably run 254 if Modest just to outrun stuff at 253 waiting to outrun Deoxys-S after a +2 Speed or something. To guarantee survival against Grass Knot from Mewtwo after one Stealth Rock, I need 389 HP (if I'm not putting it in Special Defense). I definitely can't go Speedless because that is suicide.

    192 HP / 152 Spd / 164 SA gives me 389 HP / 254 Speed / 414 Special Attack. Sound good?
  13. Markizzle

    Markizzle

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    so your saying ur Tina-O can survive a +2 Dragon Claw?
    Im not the master of calcuations but Giratina-O isnt as bulky as some would assume, and i think basically whats happening is a base 120 Atk coming at it with the equivalent of a 1600 Atk, boosted by Life Orb

    (STAB Dclaw, +2 Jolly Rayquaza gives like 800 Atk, a Supereffective hit means you double it. Then theres Life Orb)

    That doesnt look so pretty?

    Also, when i ran RP Don I did stop at 253 speed to outrun DeoxysE, so I suppose 254 speed works.
  14. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    No if Ray survived the Pulse then that's pretty scary, and the same goes for Gira surviving SD LO DClaw. I obviously meant Mewtwo.

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