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Uber Walls Discussion thread, Lugia and Chansey owned the poll.

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by trickroom, Mar 8, 2011.

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Which is the best Wall in Ubers?

  1. Blissey

    24.4%
  2. Chansey

    35.9%
  3. Lugia

    52.9%
  4. Groudon

    15.3%
  5. Skarmory

    9.5%
  6. Giratina

    28.8%
  7. Arceus-Normal

    5.4%
  8. Arceus-Ghost

    9.8%
  9. Other Arceus formes

    13.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. trickroom

    trickroom
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    VOTE FOR 2 OR MORE WALLS. ONE FOR EITHER CHANSEY OR BLISSEY, AND THE OTHER FOR THE PHYSICAL WALLS

    It's fine if you want to vote more than one physical wall or mixed wall. Make at least 2 votes though. The final number of vote between Chansey and Blissey will decide which pink blob is preferred by most players.

    Despite the huge number of offensive titans in Ubers , many walls exist to check them. Some are general purpose walls, others hold specific countering utility roles, but all of them have proven their prowess on not only stall teams but balanced teams as well or even offense.

    We should not use the statistics from the Beta server to determine which wall is the most common and best overall.

    The most common and best Special Walls are too obvious.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Blissey Defenses: 255 / 10 / 135
    Chansey Defenses: 250 HP / 5 Def / 105 SpD ( +1 for both defenses due to the Evoilte item boost)

    The greatest special walls in OU are the foundation of Ubers Stall. It is easily the nemesis of many special threats such as Latios, Dialga, Mewtwo, and others. Wish and Aromatherapy help it support the team even further. These blobs are such a threat that every team should have a plan to defeat it. It can wall almost any Arceus forme utilizing Special attacks unless that Arceus is a Steel, Poison type or is using Refresh.

    Kyogre gets a special mention for its ability to 2HKO both with Specs Water Spout. Substitute+Calm Mind users, such as Giratina-O, have an easy time defeating the pink blobs. Chansey has the advantage of having significantly better physical defense while Blissey has Leftovers recovery which softens passive damage and takes smaller hits better. Zekrom can bash through both with Bolt Strike so a teammate must be considered to absorb that. Mewtwo can now 2HKO both with Psystrike which hits physically.

    [​IMG]

    Lugia Defenses: 106 / 130 / 154

    Lugia is perhaps the best general purpose wall in the game, countering threats such as Rayquaza, Garchomp, Groudon, Scizor, Ho-Oh and Bulk Up Dialga. With its access to both Reflect and Light Screen, instant recovery in the form of Roost , Whirlwind for phazing, and Pressure to stall PP, Lugia can be a nuisance to take down. It is also difficult to prey on Lugia's somewhat untouched but still impressive Special Defense, as Lugia can even survive 2 Thunders without a Specially Defensive spread. With defenses soaring over other Ubers not named Giratina, Lugia is incredibly hard to be killed without powerful attack such as Reshiram's Choice Specs Blue Fire in the sun, and even that can be foiled with an unsuspecting Light Screen. Lugia does have some flaws though. It's mediocre offenses, couple with the extreme vulnerability to Toxic, means Lugia has to be careful switching on certain threats. Lugia will not enjoy a Toxic to the face from the threat it will be countering.

    There are some effective checks for Lugia exist in the Ubers tier. Darkrai in particular laughs at most Lugia sets and can use Dark Void or set up a Substitute, after which he can use Nasty Plot to threaten a sweep. Bare in mind Lugia can easily swallow a Dark Pulse if it has to and phaze Darkrai with Dragon Tail or Whirlwind. Zekrom can threaten Lugia but it must not come in on Reflect or it risks getting stalled out.

    [​IMG]

    Groudon Defenses: 100 / 140 / 90

    Groudon is the most common pokemon seen in Ubers Stall teams, and is often used to set up Stealth Rock and sun. After a stall player loses a Pokémon or has a Blissey dealing with a potent mixed attacker such as Palkia, Groudon is often the switch-in, interrupting the rain with his ability. He is an excellent Terrakion or Tyranitar counter. Groudon has tremendous physical bulk which allows it to stomach even a +2 Outrage from Rayquaza. On the offensive side, Groudon is no slouch either. Base 150 Attack is the highest any wall can get, STAB Earthquake tears down most frail pokemon such as Mewtwo or Darkrai.

    However, Groudon does have several disadvantages that an offensive player can exploit. The lack of recovery diminishes its walling potential dramatically, forcing it to rely on Wish in order to survive. A Kyogre can revenge kill a Groudon fairly easily with a rain-boosted Water Spout or Surf. If Shaymin-S enters on an Earthquake, a Seed Flare is all it needs to end Groudon's life. A Mewtwo or Deoxys-A can do the same with Grass Knot or Ice Beam so long as it avoids an Earthquake (or an attack, in the case of the latter), and Darkrai can shut down the Supporting set completely while setting up. Groudon's moderate Special Defense can be easily exploited by Mixed sweepers such as Palkia. The sun Groudon brings also attrats Reshiram to unleash it's might Blue Flare.

    [​IMG]

    Skarmory Defenses: Defenses: 65 / 140 / 70

    Skarmory is still a very reliable Spiker in Ubers today due to its access to instant recovery. Taunt and Whirlwind can prove even more annoying to incoming special attackers looking to set up on the metal bird. Skarmory can repeatedly come in on threats like Swords Dance Arceus, set up Spikes, and Roost off the damage, which can make your opponent suffer. Skarmory still has its limits in physical walling however. a +2 Outrage from Rayquaza is a guaranteed 2HKO even on physically defensive Skarmory. A Fire Punch from Offensive Groudon can nearly OHKO most Uber Skarmory after Stealth Rock damage.

    You should make sure your attacks strike for over 56% damage in order to kill Skarmory, as the instant recovery complicates matters. Be warned: Skarmory, just like Forretress, tends to exploit its excellent typing by investing in Special Defense, which can do things like turn a special MixPalkia's Spacial Rend into a 4HKO if a Careful nature is used. Skarmory also has that unique typing which allows it to check physical threats even when using a Specially defensive spread. Zekrom and Reshiram can ignore Sturdy and OHKO Skarmory directly with their super effective STAB moves.

    [​IMG]

    Giratina Defenses: Defenses: 150 / 120 / 120

    If you are just judging a wall by it's raw bulk, Giratina will never disappoint you. That titanic HP combined with twin base 120 defenses, make Giratina the bulkiest Uber available. Giratina is a staple of Classical Ubers Stall for that reason alone and its ability to block Rapid Spin (courtesy of the Ghost typing), along with crippling physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp. It is not as effective in pure walling as Lugia because of the disappointing weakness to Dragon-type moves, the lack of instant recovery, and no access to dual screens.

    Giratina can harass many physical attackers with status, and if Will-O-Wisp happens to hit a mixed attacker, then the pink blobs can easily stall it out. Also, the Water-type and Electric-type resistances that Giratina possesses, combined with its remarkable Special Defense, let it wall Choiced Palkia or Dialga variants not locked into Dragon attacks. However, the two scarfers usually love to spam their awesome Dragon STAB attacks.

    Dialga can OHKO most Giratina with Draco Meteor. A Bulk Up Dialga can use Rest to remove Will-O-Wisp as well. Darkrai and Mewtwo can come in on a Rest and use Taunt, thus shutting down Giratina and giving them a chance to set up. If the Giratina is the rarer Calm Mind user, Tyranitar defeats it with Crunch. Ghost, Steel, Psychic, Dark and the rare Ice Arceus can all beat Calm Mind Giratina one-on-one.

    [​IMG]

    Arceus Defenses: 120 / 120 / 120

    The most versatile of all walls, Arceus can fit in on almost any team. Almost any variant can turn itself into a wall. The most common Arceus wall is the Normal type Arceus wall utilizing Roar, Will-O-Wisp, Return and Recover. Ghost Arceus and Grass Arceus are also very notable walls. Arceus can also use Perish Song to stop end game sweepers, something no other wall can boast about. Arceus has access to the reliable Recover which makes taking it down can be frustrating. Like Lugia, Arceus is completely screwed if it comes in on
    Toxic.

    Counters to Arceus depends entirely on the the type. Fighting types such as Heracross can destroy Normal Arceus while Tyranitar can brutalize Ghost Arceus with Crunch.

    NOTE: There are plenty of bulky pokemon such as Ho-Oh or Kyogre who aren't mentioned here. Discuss about your favorite walls here. Any wall you think are effective can be posted here as well. The most common walls are mentioned above because of obvious reasons. You can vote for multiple choices.

    Everyone please make at least 2 votes.
    1st Vote: Please vote whether you like Chansey or Blissey more. Both are similar but in terms of effectiveness from your experience, please pick one which seems to be better for you. From the total votes, we can see whether most players prefer Chansey OR Blissey as their Special Wall.

    2nd Vote: Another vote for which is the best physical or all purpose wall. It's fine if you want to vote for more than 1 wall for this section, say Groudon and Lugia. Please do not vote for both Chansey and Blissey, pick one. It is impossible to put more than one poll in a thread so we have to vote it this way or make separate threads for physical or special walls which I do not want to.

    So an example vote will be Chansey, Lugia and Groudon.

    Please state the reasons why you nominated the walls in the poll. Simple reasons and explanations will do as long as the reason is clear.

    An example will be:

    Chansey: She has much better overall physical bulk and slightly better Special Defense score than Blissey. Even though she lacks the ability to use Special Attacks like Blissey, Chansey only needs Seismic Toss and Toxic to demolish most Special sweepers such as Reshiram. The extra physical defense helps tremendously when pitted against mixed sweepers such as Palkia or Giratina-O.

    Lugia: The best all purpose wall in the game, thanks to awesome defensive stats and a very impressive Speed stat. The ability to hold Leftovers (something non Normal Arceus can hold), Pressure, extra special bulk and immunity to Spikes are major advantages it has over other physical walls. Dragon Tail allows it to do some damage and phaze through Taunt at the same time. Lugia also handles Mixed attackers better than most walls due to its amazing defenses on both sides.

    Groudon: The backbone of many stall teams. Groudon summons eternal sunlight on the field severely weakening key sweepers such as Kyogre and Kingdra. The enormous physical bulk also helps Groudon swallow huge hits and the lack of Dragon weakness helps stop Dragon sweepers. A massive attack score and Dragon Tail grants it the ability to stop many physical threats such as Rayquaza. STAB Earthquake coming from the Ground titan can also leave gaping holes on offensive threats.
  2. calze6

    calze6

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    Typical trickroom lol.

    First vote yay! Lugia is the best wall, imo, with huge bulk in all stats, not just SDef like chansey. Its typing allows it to be neutral to much, can kill some threats with ice beam, phaze and roost stall.
  3. ironman

    ironman

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    i voted for giratina because it is the only pokemon i have ever used that can be such an effective counter to swords dance arceus and actually walls so much staff...if it had access to instant recovery(yeah no recover or roost hurts a lot) it would be much more appreciated...i use a set with will-o-wisp/calm mind/aura sphere/dragon pulse and actually after a few calm minds it can do some nice damage...
  4. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    [​IMG]

    I choose Chansey as my preferred Special Wall. It gets Eviolite which helps it takes hits far better. Unlike Blissey it isnt brought down by any Physical move thanks to Eviolite boosting its Defense also. Lack of Leftovers may seem bad at first but Soft Boiled helps. Chansey may have less Special Attack but the only attack commonly used on Chansey is Seismic Toss so yeah Chansey gets my vote.

    [​IMG]

    Groudon gets my vote as a physical wall of my choice. It is extremely bulky and can take physical hits like a champ. Not only that but Groudon can also dish out some damage if needed. It also brings in the Sun and can do a fair bit of PHazing with Dragon and can set up Stealth Rocks. So I would pick Groudon as my all purpose Physical Wall.

    EDIT:I added some sprites just for the effect. Man Groudon looks badass !
  5. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Giratina is a very reliable physical wall thanks to its massive defenses and it is only hampered severely by the unfortunate Dragon weakness. Using a non Rest set means it can't wall as well though.

    Some did the voting wrongly. Make at least 2 votes. One for Chansey or Blissey and one more for the rest of the walls. You can make more than 2 votes but not Chansey and Blissey together.
  6. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Oops, you should probably say in the title you can vote more than 2, lol.

    Anyway, CM/WoW Rock Arceus in the Sand is unkillable. I mean, unkillable.
  7. trickroom

    trickroom
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    I changed that now. I did posted in the thread vote for at least 2 pokemons.
    One is to determine whether Chansey or Blissey is preferred the other is for other walls.

    You can still post here whether you will vote for Chansey or Blissey or any other wall.
  8. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    IMO Blissey is superior. She can pass up larger wishes than Chansey, and has an actual Special Attack not to rely on Seismic Toss all the time(and IMO I'd rather choose P2 for Eviolite walling, tyvm)

    For best non-Bliss/Chansey wall, obv Lugia. Multiscale, fuck off bitches. Being able to outspeed non-scarf'd pokes = fuck off I Recover to multiscale INURFACE.

    (Also why isn't Forretress in the poll...?)
  9. SupremeDirt

    SupremeDirt

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    Lugia is the best special wall in the game. Blissey is a close second.

    Physical walls largely depend on what your team needs to deal with.
  10. j99ubers

    j99ubers

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    Well I voted for Chansey and Groudon. Chansey because ive faced it alot and is one of the most annoying things to take down without Nattorei/Sub Ho-Oh. And for the physical wall i picked Groudon since its pretty much the only wall Ive ever actually used in any of my teams, so I know from experience how good it is.
  11. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Forretress isn't a wall. It just comes in on resisted attacks such as Outrage and launch Spikes into the field. Forretress is more of a Spiker than a wall. It can't do anything to Sweepers except maybe Toxic.

    Porygon2 has way lower Special Defense than either blobs, can't pass huge wishes.
  12. SupremeDirt

    SupremeDirt

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    Though the wish point is valid, P2 can hold Eviolite. Which gives it godly defenses on both sides of the spectrum.
  13. trickroom

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    As godly as it is P2 has terrible Special Defense when compare to the pink blobs. Also, Chansey can hold Eviolite as well. P2 has better physical bulk, and Special Attack but that's all it gets. Chansey/Blissey has better Special bulk, huge Wishes, Cleric (if you want), and Leftovers in Blissey's case.

    Ask P2 to swallow 2 Reshiram Blue Fires in the sun.
  14. JSND

    JSND

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    Arceus any form : With basicaly being the combination of Kyogre and Groudon in term of movepool, Typing, AND stats(in term of walling) only with cost of weaker attack and freedom of changing attack in cost of more powerful attack, Arceus get my vote.

    Arceus has all move wall ever need except for Taunt which can be replaced. He has W-o-w, Dual Screen, SR(no spikes bitch), and other plethora of insanely useful move AND have versatility to be put on ANY team and given any resistance you want.

    He has 120 speed which will be useful for dealing with 90 clan that flood ubers and 120 Offense that make him able to hit back reliably coupled with bulk of combined form of Kyogre AND Groudon. Since when you can have pokemon that have COMBINED bulk of Groudon and Kyogre i ask ?

    I choose Blissey. that special attack is contrary to most people belief is very helpful. If you for some case run into things that you need to handle fast with that, it is really helping(read : against Rayquaza and Subzek)
  15. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Accidentally voted both Chansey and Blissey. I pick Chansey because the increased defenses help a lot against stuff that plague Blissey, like Groudon and Specs Reshiram. Chansey's biggest weakness though is its inability to utilize Special attacks well along with the fact that residual damage kills it quicker, so choosing Blissey isn't unreasonable.
  16. Anachronism

    Anachronism

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    My votes: Skarmory, Blissey, Arceus-Ghost

    Blissey is better at taking hits below 31%, and about 38% with Protect. It also recovers hp lost from sr in 2 turns, which is a serious concern when chans/bliss is usually only out for 2 turns at a time. Overall this means that Bliss will have to heal less, meaning more toxictoss damage and more opportunities to pass wish or provide cleric support. I have 5 other walls to help me with physical threats.

    Skarmory is on my list mostly because it is the best answer in the game to standard Extremekiller Arceus, and the only viable uber spiker with a 50% healing move. Max sdef versions are also among the best answers to Psycho/Aura/Ice Beam Mewtwo. It is also decent at handling non-fire attack versions of Rayquaza, non-Fire Punch Groudon, and Garchomp (which all aren't nearly as common anymore as last gen unfortunately).

    Ghost Arceus gets the nod for filling the role of spin blocker better than the other uber ghosts thanks to Recover. It is also a fantastic mixed wall, coming in on Rayquaza and the like that might otherwise threaten the rest of your team. Access to WoW means it can even neuter these mixed sweepers to allow your special blob to wreck them too.

    I would have picked Nattorei if it was on the list. Resistance to dragon and water is such a huge advantage for anything, let alone a mon that can spike and sr. Leech Seed + Protect might not be the most reliable recovery ever, but it does the job and provides passive damage too.
  17. trickroom

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    Not really. We have Deoxys-D who has Spikes and Recover. Skarmory is still better than Deoxys-D though.

    Ferrothorn isn't added because I dropped it mainly because it can't phaze things or hit hard. It also stops the poll from being too long.
  18. Focus

    Focus I'm waiting you...

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    Pretty much what Anachronism said about Blissey. That passive healing is just too good for me to pass up. As for the physical side of things, my votes go to Giratina, Ghost Arceus, and Steel Arceus. Giratina is pretty neat with its status moves, Calm Mind, and outrageous defenses. I have used it to good effect, and it has completely walled me on several occasions. The Arceus formes are really good at walling things as well, though they a more like fast, bulky sweepers. Regardless, both Ghost and Steel Arceus have been useful. A fast Will-O-Wisp stops most physical threats not named Ho-Oh dead in their tracks, which is very nice. I have been meaning to make an Ubers sand team, but I haven't done that quite yet.
  19. j99ubers

    j99ubers

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    Well, I'd say out of alot of the walls mentioned in the article, Nattorei hits alot harder than any of them, even with 94 base attack, having two STAB moves of over 120 BP is more than most sweepers have.
  20. trickroom

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    Nattorei can only damage fast sweepers with Gyro Ball or smack them with Power Whip. It cannot stop SD Garchomp, Dragon Dance Rayquaza, Groudon with Fire Punch, and some others. Skarmory has Roost and at least phaze them out.
  21. Server_Crash

    Server_Crash

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    Special Wall: Blissey
    Like everyone said, that passive healing is too good to pass up

    Mixed Wall: Lugia
    If/When Marvel Scale gets released, I'm definitely going to use him in wifi, but even wihtout it, Lugia still walls everything with access to immediate healing, phazing, screens, and its ice beam can actually do some damage.

    Physical Wall:
    Giratina-A
    The ghost typing is phenomenal plus it can will-o-wisp every physical threat except Ho-oh. It also gets access to roar, so Ho-oh is gone if it gets phazed once.
  22. calze6

    calze6

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    For some reason I can't vote twice...
  23. trickroom

    trickroom
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    You can't vote twice. You must make the two votes at the same time. Anyway, do you prefer Chansey or Blissey?

    You can post your choice here.
  24. guanlong

    guanlong

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    Lugia is (IMO) the best mixed wall there is, with massive speed and bulk. It can even outstall boosted physical attackers with Reflect+Roost, and can sometimes utilise Calm Mind to boost alongside the many boosting special sweepers in the Ubers tier. The few Pokemon that give the Multi-Scale variant trouble are Darkrai and CB Zekrom (if Lugia is not running any speed and Zekrom is running speed; if not Lugia can just Reflect stall). Toxic hurts Lugia too as it has no Refresh.
  25. ironman

    ironman

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    same problem...
    well since i can't vote now i will just say i believe that blissey is superior to chansey because of the additional leftovers recovery and by passing slightly bigger wishes(even though the difference is minimal)...despite this i wouldn't use any of them in ubers since i believe that lugia just does the job better...

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