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Uber Walls Discussion thread, Lugia and Chansey owned the poll.

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by trickroom, Mar 8, 2011.

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Which is the best Wall in Ubers?

  1. Blissey

    24.4%
  2. Chansey

    35.9%
  3. Lugia

    52.9%
  4. Groudon

    15.3%
  5. Skarmory

    9.5%
  6. Giratina

    28.8%
  7. Arceus-Normal

    5.4%
  8. Arceus-Ghost

    9.8%
  9. Other Arceus formes

    13.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    You may have noticed I voted for all of them.

    That is because I do not believe there is a best wall. All of these walls are tailored to wall and do different things, and each has enough advantages/disadvantages over each other so that each one is worth using. (And you usually stack walls on stall teams anyway.)
  2. trickroom

    trickroom
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    It's fine if you voted for all of them, you are Fireburn afterall -.-

    I just wanted to see whether people picked Chansey or Blissey for their team. Please, using both the pink blobs is just plain stupid because they counter the exact same thing. I liked the idea of combos like RayMence, but when I tried Blissey and Chansey on the same team, they sucked, I rather have another wall or a choiced user in Stall teams.

    Well each wall have their own niche but wait, sometimes their roles are overlapped. An example will be Lugia and Cresselia. Cresselia lacks the nasty Ice and Electric weakness, but it isn't enough to prevent her from being outclassed. Most players picked Lugia I think, because they stop similar threats. Lugia can abuse entry hazards by itself and will not be set up bait due to Dragon Tail or Whirlwind. Cresselia on the other hand is abused a lot easier.
  3. Lady Shinki

    Lady Shinki

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    There is one thing that I think you could pair up Chansey and Blissey for. Chansey can be the hardcore physical wall, Blissey can be the supporter/special wall. An oft-overlooked move in their movepool is Charm, and if you dedicated Chansey as the "physical" wall while letting Blissey take special hits, you might be able to accomplish a lot with it (relying on entry hazard damage and Blissey to tank Kyogre's Water Spout).

    Chansey @ Evolite
    252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
    Bold / Natural Cure

    Charm
    Light Screen/Toxic/Wish
    Snatch
    Softboiled

    You'd have to play very conservatively with it, using Charm as your primary move to catch switch-ins hoping to scare you off, then proceeding to stall them out. Toxic and Seismic Toss aren't technically that important, as anything that would taunt it will hardcore beat any set Chansey could run anyway. This also gives you a legitimate way to beat out rest-talkers that would be able to remove Toxic, as you can Snatch away their Rest and switch out, removing Sleep. This could hardcore stall out even things like RestTalk+CM Kyogre, as you can not only charm switch-ins, you can Snatch its Calm Minds and even Rest! You can also stall Dialga out of PP via alternating between Charm and Snatch, stealing its boosts along the way with it just relying on a crit to penetrate your defenses and giving you an opportunity to set up something of your own.

    Here's some calcs to show I'm not completely crazy for suggesting Chansey as a physical 'wall' (assuming you use Charm on the switch, 252/252 Bold with Evolite):

    -2 Adamant LO Lucario Close Combat: (36.08% - 42.90%)
    -2 Garchomp Outrage: (19.18% - 22.59%)
    -2 CB Medicham HJK (power scale calc, as there is NO stronger fighting attack than this): (80.11% - 94.60%)
    +0 Normal Arceus Extremespeed: (25.57% - 30.26%)
    +0 Bulk Up Dialga Critical Hit Outrage (assume you've Charmed it to +0 or lower and it crits through its negative attack modifier): (57.10% - 67.33%)

    Since there is no unboosted fighting-type attack that can 1hko Chansey if they switch into Charm, Chansey is free to spam Charm and recover with Softboiled while forcing switches as their physical attackers realize that they can't actually muscle through it. The difficulty is getting the entry hazards down in the first place, but chansey+gira O would do a good job of walling most things. Light Screen would help you stall out CM+psycho break mewtwo as it dies to Toxic damage, and having two recovery moves would help you last longer while also being able to provide team support.
  4. guanlong

    guanlong

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    Actually this poll should have had Steel Arceus as an option; in addition to providing a Dragon resist, it can check non-Jolly LO variants of the Extreme Killer and SD Ghost variants (assuming WoW hits) and virtually every physical attacker.
  5. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Sure you could use both together, but that Chansey isn't a physical wall, that's a lure for physical attackers. Charm annoys physical attackers but you cannot switch in on them. A Wall should be able to come in on the attacker and either kill or phaze it. Can you give a GOOD team featuring the two blobs? Some logs will be nice.

    I rather use Lugia or Groudon as the supporting physical wall. Using Chansey as a physicall wall is bad, but you can use Charm to soften physical hits. Also if you use that Chansey set, she can still wall any special attacker not named Specs Kyogre or Reshiram. Using Blissey will be wasted in this case. The calculations are fine but that is assuming they switch in on you not the other way round. As a wall it needs to switch in on the sweeper to threaten it.

    An example will be Groudon coming in on Rayquaza. Groudon can immediately threaten Rayquaza with Stone Edge or Dragon Tail. Rayquaza can choose to Outrage Groudon but die to Stone Edge or switch and risks getting phazed by Dragon Tail.


    Arceus-Normal can check all Extremkiller versions, regardless of nature. Also a +2 Earthquake will hurt Steel Arceus even after a burn.
    Skarmory and Arceus Normal counters SD Ghost Arceus better. I did put Other Arceus as an option. There are too many Arceus forms to put in.

    False. SD Garchomp and Groudon can still 2HKO you after the burn. DD Rayquaza can set up as you switch in and OHKO with Earthquake. Bulk Up Dialga can freely set up on Steel Arceus lacking Roar. Heracross OHKOes you with Close Combat and doesn't fear a burn due to Guts.

    Ever heard of Ho-Oh? It takes nothing from Judgment and is immune to Will-O-Wisps. Sacred Fire will roast Steel Arceus. Blaziken can OHKO Steel Arceus easily with the dual STABS and is immune to burn.

    Steel Arceus sure is a capable wall but you overrated it a bit. Normal Arceus is probably better as a physical wall.
  6. guanlong

    guanlong

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    Yeah, I forgot Ho-Oh... But against SD Groudon, can't Arceus just CM as it Swords Dances then KO with +1 Judgement? Groudon can't outrun Arceus and KO unless it has had 2 free turns or is under screens?
  7. trickroom

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    +1 Judgment can't OHKO. If you are using CM, then I don't think it is a wall.

    It is a Bulky Sweeper then! Also this is assuming you come in on Groudon. Since a wall is coming in on a sweeper, Arceus has to come in on Groudon. Steel Arceus couldn't do that.
    Steel Arceus is really bulky but I don't think it works well as a wall, more like a bulky booster.
  8. guanlong

    guanlong

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    Ah, then thanks for clearing up the misconception. But I still think that one of (maybe the most) important criteria for grading an Ubers wall (not named Blissey or Chansey) is its ability to survive a +2 Extreme Killer ES and cripple the opposing Arceus. I suppose Multi-Scale Lugia can do that rather simply and just Dragon Tail the Arceus out, but it won't like Shadow Force. Ghost/Steel Arceus would also check it pretty well, I suppose.
  9. trickroom

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    Shadow Force is Arceus's most powerful physical move but Lugia can foil that by Reflecting on the charging turn. Shadow Force is fairly easy to play around.

    +2 Shadow Force will OHKO Ghost Arceus though so it needs to be faster. Having an unfortunate Dragon weakness will hamper most walls. Most walls other than Giratina probably suck if they have a Dragon weakness because Dragon types are so common in Ubers.
  10. Yoko Yuri

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    +1 for Lugia - Reflect + Roost!
  11. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa Throw-up on the internet, or get off on TV
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    Bliss doesnt need defense to be honest, and losing leftovers recovery and less hp makes chansey a pink whore, blissy is still the top bitch gen 5.

    under other arceus forms: steel arcues anyone? or for that matter any bulkier arcues build with will-o wisp and calm mind. Good luck breaking that without toxic, owaitsteelcantbetoxiced1.

    To me an ubers wall has to have utility, that is: it has to be somewhat threatening offensively to still be good defensively, thats why giratina is so good, and (imo) lugia is so weak. Giratina in addition to spin blocking also threatens nearly every uber with dragon stabs, lugia on the other hand has very unfortunate stabs and is weak to sr. Giratina can also phaze, though not on the same degree that Lugia can. giratina has access to will o wisp which is in most cases a superior reflect. on top of this Giratina runs a reliable rest talk. Lugia can avoid this, but in doing so loses a valuable move slot that could go to toxic, or reflect/light screen.

    However, as trickroom so aptly pointed out, lugia does wall the prolific rayquaza and haban berry chomp that are so very threatening on the current standard ubers ladder. Lugia can also be put on a stall team, were it wont be set up fodder for everything with taunt (and darkrai). This is good because stall teams use entry hazards which makes lugia's one truly outstanding utility (whirlwind) worth using.

    for reference:
  12. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    Steel Arceus is noob. Use Rock Arceus instead. Hey look I'm a Calm Mind Arceus that kicks Ho-oh's ass to the fifth dimension, and I get make Reshiram my bitch! Good luck trying to beat me without using Doryuuzu or Toxic.
  13. trickroom

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    When you are using general walls, that team should be a stall team lol. Also, Stall teams give the right support for Lugia. Giratina is so good? I would say it sucks compare to Lugia in terms of walling.

    As much as I like Giratina, Lugia is still MUCH better than Giratina if you are looking for a wall. So, what major advantages Giratina has while Lugia doesn't? Spin block? Enjoy Forretress setting up on you.

    Lugia is weak, I accept that. However, Lugia doesn't need to hit hard, just by phazing the opponent and waiting for them to die from passive damage is all Lugia needs. Ice Beam kills just the right things, Rayquaza, Garchomp and harms Zekrom or Groudon.

    In exchange for those, Lugia lacks a Dragon weakness, hello any Dragon sweeper to bash Giratina? Also the only Dragon STAB walling Giratina is using is Dragon Tail. Giratina's Dragon Tail can't even break Ho-Oh's Substitute, lol, is that what you consider strong? Lugia doesn't need STABs, also Giratina is weak to damaged by Stealth Rock and hurt by Spikes and Toxic Spikes It's worse when Giratina cannot touch Forretress who Giratina is suppose to be spin blocking. Forretress gets all the free layers if Giratina comes in.

    That's not always the case. Will-O-Wisps fail if the opponent is paralysed or poisoned. Also, Reflect supports the entire team from physical attacks instead of one attacker. Oh, Will-O-Wisps has a shaky accuracy as well, you won't like missing 25% of the time. Reliable Resttalk set? This means Giratina lacks recovery and is forced to run that strategy. The lack of reliable healing sucks hard for Giratina, any move that 3HKOEs Giratina means Giratina loses. An example will be LO Ho-Oh who can 3HKO Giratina while Lugia can stall out Ho-Oh with Reflect, Toxic and Roost.

    Jokes. Most people switch to their physical attacker when they see Blissey. Blissey comes in on Palkia for little damage, and the opponent switches to Groudon. Now, Blissey is threatened. If it is Chansey, she can stay in and stall out Groudon. Also Mixed Attackers such as Dialga and Palkia have an easier time breaking Blissey than Chansey. Many special attackers carry physical moves to suprise Blissey but in Chansey's case, that will not be so painful. Chansey can survive 2 Outrages from Garchomp, while Blissey is always killed in 2 hits. Oh, the HP lost is insignificant, when you have 641 HP.

    Steel Arceus stops what? It is a bulky booster like what I said to guanlong. Steel Arceus cannot come in on Groudon, Garchomp, Ho-Oh, Rayquaza. Reshiram, Kyogre, non choiced Palkia, Zekrom, Mewtwo and all SD Arceus variants.

    A wall should be coming on a threat not letting a threat come in to threaten you lol.

    Steel Arceus actually beats Rock Arceus one-on-one. Also Fighting and Ground Arceus will eventually beat Rock Arceus in a Calm Mind war. Kyogre changes weather and drowns Rock Arceus. About Ho-Oh and Reshiram, that's what make Rock Arceus so unique. Heracross can come in and beat Rock Arceus too.

    False, Lugia can Dragon Tail out the Taunter. Taunt fails to stop Lugia from phazing in this gen. What uses Taunt in Ubers now? No, Mewtwo please, the Psystrike CM Set is way too useful. Heatran? Skarmory? and what? Those two steels are as rare as Diamonds in Ubers currently. Heatran is slowly raising in popularity but it is RARE at the moment.

    Wrong, Lugia is the best phazer in the game, walls the Mixed attackers such as Dialga and Rayquaza, has Roost or Recover, Pressure to PP stall out moves. Lugia can use Dual Screens to support the entire team, checks a large portion of the metagame, Lugia can also sweep unpreprared teams with Calm Mind. Calm Mind + Psychock allows Lugia to beat Calm Mind Kyogre and Blissey.

    This thread is also for walls commonly seen in slower teams lol, so you can't say Lugia is useless while Giratina is very useful. Using Giratina outside of stall is just plain stupid. Also, I find Lugia to be more useful than Giratina because Giratina hides whenever he sees any Dragon sweeper lol. Fleeing from Palkia, Dialga, Rayquaza, Reshiram and pretty much any powerful dragons is a horrible weakness Giratina has.

    Judging from the votes Lugia is the preferred wall on their defensive teams. I believe most people can understand you should provide Spikes support for Lugia in order to fully abuse Lugia's potential which is walling and phazing. Chansey is winning Blissey so far in terms of votes so Chansey is probably better now.
  14. Fireburn

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    Rock Arceus on a Sandstorm team and with Will-O-Wisp is going to ruin your life if you lack Kyogre. ;~;

    Also trickroom, you forgot to mention Ho-Oh in the poll. -.-
  15. Myzozoa

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  16. IcyMan28

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    I voted Blissey and Lugia.

    Blissey and Chansey are almost interchangeable in my opinion due to the lack of Sandstorm and thus one less for of passive damage to make the loss of Leftovers noticeable. By the same token though, they are a definite advantage for Blissey in conjunction with Protect. I am generally wary around LO Dialga or Palkia regardless, as well as Rayquaza, so mixed sweepers aren't as big of a deal in my experience.

    Lugia is ahead of the other walls by leaps and bounds, however, when it comes to general walling. Normal Arceus may have Will-o-Wisp and significant bulk, but Lugia has immunity to [Toxic] Spikes, also has access to Recover, can mimic WoW with Reflect, and has the speed it needs to outrun what it should be walling (the only things between it and Arceus are the Lati twins, really, who can crush Lugia with Thunder anyway). On top of that, it has Pressure (significant in a tier with various 8 PP moves), just enough SpA to hit what it needs to, and MultiScale as an option once it is released from the Dream World. The other walls don't compare as they have far more exploitable weaknesses: Groudon's SpD, Skarm's SpD, Giratina-A's weaknesses, Arceus-N's lesser typing + ability, SteelCeus's weaknesses, etc.
  17. trickroom

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    Icyman also highlighted Lugia's advantage over other walls, so do I need to expand on it?

    Fireburn, sorry for not adding Ho-Oh in the poll :P Most of the walls are physical walls, but Ho-Oh can BURN ALL. Ho-Oh cannot come in on physical threats in the end but it does walls a lot so I admit I forgotten to add it X__X. Unlike Dialga, Ho-Oh can spread burns, much Specially bulkier, stops a lot of threats and has Roost or Recover to regain health so it definitely suits the poll.

    About Rockceus, you overrated it a bit :(

    Fightceus and Groundceus both beat Rockceus in a Calm Mind War. Blissey and Chansey can come in take anything and Toxic Rock Arceus to death. Groudon can still beat Rock Arceus if it has Swords Dance. +2 LO Earthquake still 2HKOes through burn.
  18. calze6

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    Lugia + weather ball - forry counter.
  19. Destiny Warrior

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    I went with Blissey because it can actually use an offensive attack, Lugia and Giratina because they're brilliantly good Pressure stallers, and Arceus-Ghost because it is a very good spinblocker, ranking alongside the lieks of Giratina-O.
  20. TM13IceBeam

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    For the record I used to run RestTalk Heracross with Flame Orb + Megahorn + Close Combat just to counter Darkrai.

    Heracross is still viable for Uber play, being one of the most effective Darkrai counters. According to PO, Darkrai is currently the most used Pokemon in Uber(although there are a lot of troll Zekrom sets, which put it to #4 in usage wth)
  21. trickroom

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    Why are you using Resttalk and Flame Orb? With Flame Orb you will no longer be affected by Dark Void and if you Rest, it's free set up time for Darkrai.

    Yes, Heracross is still useful in Ubers and it can OHKO Mewtwo with Calm Mind regardless of Calm Minds.

    Bare in mind this is a discussion for walls, not Heracross or Darkrai.
  22. TM13IceBeam

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  23. trickroom

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    If Heracross is burned, he cannot be put to sleep. Why are you using Rest and Sleep Talk together with Flame Orb? Heracross doesn't need Flame Orb to do something else, it can just use a Scarf set with Sleep Talk to beat Darkrai instead of using a gimmicky set,

    Obviously Heracross cannot come in on super effective attacks but he can switch in on Aura Sphere, Ice Beam, Calm Mind and Shadow Ball. With the help of Choice Scarf, Heracross can outspeed and OHKO Mewtwo with Megahorn.

    Chansey has several more votes than Blissey at the moment. Lugia appears to be the most selected wall, probably due to it's bulkiness on both sides, ability to phaze and set up Dual Screens.
  24. TM13IceBeam

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    Rest is to restore Hera's HP and Sleep Talk is to ensure he isn't useless. Guts still activates while Hera is snoring. >_>

    anyway discussion veered too much.

    I don't understand why Chansey has more votes than Blissey. What exactly does it not get 2HKO'd by that Blissey does? Furthermore Chansey lacks Lefties recovery, which helps in the event that you face the odd SS/Hail team in ubers.
  25. shrang

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    Specs Blue Fire in the sun from Reshiram 2HKOs Blissey with SR, IIRC, while Chansey has a much smaller chance. Specs Hydro Pump in the rain from Palkia is a similar story, although it's not guaranteed to 2HKO Blissey anyway. Chansey can also avoid getting 2HKOed by ScarfChomp's Outrage as well. But yeah, I prefer Blissey simply because Chansey is a noob and is complete setup fodder while Blissey can at least strike back. Blissey also makes a much better Wish passer since she can actually use Protect and regain health.

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