Gen 5 Ubers BW2 Viability Rankings

(Approved by Sweep and Theorymon)


Generation 5 (Black & White 2) Viability Rankings


General Thread Rules:
  • Post intelligently. Random posts saying things like "X should be x rank" without context or supporting evidence isn't gonna fly here.
  • Be civil when debating with other users. Any flaming will not be tolerated.
  • Please do not bring up ban/suspect discussions in this thread. Any and all possible upcoming tier-policy decisions will be brought up from the leaders themselves, and it won't be done in this thread.
  • Usage stats and replays are good to support your arguments, but avoid basing your entire argument around them. Make sure the replays are of good matches, from high ladder or UPL / SPL. It's hard to take a bottom of the ladder replay seriously when discussing a Pokemon's viability.

THE LIST
Note: The pokemon in the tiers are in alphabetical order.

S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.
A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.

High
Mid
Low
B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

High
Mid
Low
C Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with viable offensive or defensive capability. They have certain niches or utility that allow them to perform in specific roles. Reliant on fairly large amounts of team support to function and minimize their inherent flaws. They may also suffer significantly from opportunity cost to the point of being mostly outclassed.

High
Mid
Low
D Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with very little offensive or defensive capability. Barely viable, they are very rarely real considerations for specific roles. Reliant on almost the full team for support while still affected by some of their flaws. They may even suffer from massive amounts of opportunity cost to the point of being outright outclassed. When considering these Pokémon, Make sure they preform a role that is NEEDED for your team, and not a role that another Pokémon can do better. New Players, STAY AWAY from these Pokémon, they aren't very good, only experts or ladder trolling teams will have a use for these.
F Rank
Absolute jokes. They are put on display to warn against unexplainable trends. Simply put, these Pokemon shouldn't ever be used on a serious team.
  • (Charizard)
    To put it bluntly, Charizard is a horrible Pokemon in Ubers. While I know it may be your favorite starter and all, Charizard has simply too many flaws to be of any use in Ubers. Being a Fire-type in a metagame infested with Kyogre is not good; and it is not going to be able to do much damage to the king of Ubers. Charizard also has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, and combined with the residual damage from Solar Power, it is simply too easy to wear down. Charizard is also sorely outclassed by Reshiram and Ho-Oh, both of who have legitimate ways to damage Kyogre and qualities to mitigate that Stealth Rock weakness. Always consider your other options before using Charizard. There are many.
    (I'm keeping this write-up because I find it funny, and because there's no BW Ubers analysis for Zard, so this is the closest thing we got.)
  • (Shedinja)

 
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1. Bisharp is beyond awful in BW2 sadly, Fightceus was a death knell for it and Groudon / Groundceus also make it sad. How do you get a Swords Dance up with this? Cannot switch into Draco Meteors or HP Fires or Fightings from Lati@s at all. D rank or unranked.

2. Gastrodon is at least as good as everything in C+ and easily finds a niche as a Kyogre counter (including CM sets) and a soft CM arceus check (except Steelceus bc immune to Clear Smog). Can run Toxic or Ice Beam in the third slot, depending on if you want to punish Rayquaza with your respectable SpA or if you want to cripple stuff like Tina-O. It also counters Swift Swimmers barring HP Grass Omastar.

3. Why would anyone use Beatric on a serious team, at least SS Ludicolo soft checks weather starters (including Kyogre) and has great coverage. Drop Beartic to Unranked, it is atrocious.

4. Drop Victreebel, it's a worse Venusaur when you consider HP Fire gets the kills that Weather Ball does anyway barring I guess Steelceus.

5. Cloyster owns, it shouldn't be the same rank as the gutter trash that is Chansey (which I'm only OK with being B- because it checks Palkia, it's awful otherwise in a hazards meta). People know about the lead set, but the sweeper set with Wobb support is seriously not bad. Raise to B.

6. I don't have many objections to the top of the list, but Darkrai is A+ minimum. I cannot tell you how predictable Scarf Dialga / Terrakion are based on team preview and how easy it is to bop them with Focus Blast on the switch if your opponent has nothing to sac. Also Thunder and Taunt provide ways to deal with Sleep Talk Kyogre, and Thunder Wave can cripple stuff like Fightceus after you sleep something. It cannot run all of these moves on the same set, but with Nasty Plot being ehh with Genesect on every corner, it's not hard to fit a luxury option to bone a "check" that the rest of your team appreciates being lured. Palkia, which is similarly awful to prepare for, can be broken a lot of the time but struggles vs many heavy offensive teams, whereas Darkrai that remember their contacts struggle against absolutely nothing.
 
fighteus a+
darkrai a+
genesect s
palkia a+
ho-oh a+
latios and latias should be the same rank
forre is waaaaaaaaaaay too dam high
i'd make deo-a / deo-s a+ too since they're better than all of A
shaymin-s a-
land-t a-
kabutops a-

i can embellish later if necessary but i think most dudes familiar with the metagame would agree to most of these.
 
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I don't agree with Shaymin-S to A-, it's quite hard to fit and very very weak to priority / has an awful time try to break through walls, as annoying as SubSeed can be. maaaaaayyybbee B+ but it doesn't contribute enough IMO to rise higher. Agreed with dice on most of those, particularly Latios being placed at the same rank as Latias. Latios has enough niches (easier time breaking bulky Arceus at +1 and wounding Steels) over Latias to make up for the inability to effectively check Scarf Kyogre or emergency switch into Palkia...although 1v1, Draco Meteor can OHKO Palkia after SR right through Haban lol. It's great on teams that are OK vs. Kyogre already. IMO Darkrai is slightly better than Palkia for the reasons I listed but both are top 5 mons in the metagame and should be A+ accordingly.

On the fence regarding a Ho-Oh rise, SR is incredibly hard to remove and more and more SR users towards the end of BW2 have a good match-up vs Magic Bounce users. It's still usable if rocks are up and amazing if rocks are not up, but IMO it isn't Darkrai / Palkia level. Also Kabutops owns and should be A- easily, it's a much better spinner than Forretress bc strong and fast, no one uses physically defensive Giratina-A in this metagame (nor should they).

Edit at Aqua: B+, it's still a decent Ghostceus check unless Fire Blast and can run that Custap lead set, it just sucks balls at spinning and sucks momentum. At least you can throw hazards on some spinblockers although they can easily adjust their moveset to wreck Forry if they want to (Fire Blast or Flamethrower Ghostceus, Magic Coat / HP Fire Giratina-O)
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
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[*]
(Dialga)
Dialga is probably one of the biggest nuisances in the BW Ubers environment. Its stat distribution is almost perfect in that it can take any one hit neutral hit from the almost the entire tier without the help of an ability like Sturdy. It can also threaten out just about every Pokemon in the tier with the correct move. What makes Dialga even more terrifying is its move pool. Given its annoying combination of excellent typing and bulk, Dialga stands out as the most reliable Stealth Rock setter in the tier (possibly even the game!) and this gets compounded by its ability to threaten every Rapid Spin user bar Tentacruel with a specific coverage move.
It is definitely not constricted to this role though, Dialga's stat distribution and move pool make it extremely versatile in that it can run Choiced sets, Mixed Attacking sets, Trick Room, and Bulk Up. It is also one of the few Pokemon that can run both offensive, and defensive Stealth Rock sets, so figuring out what Dialga is trying to do is sometimes a challenge in itself. It also functions extremely well with Kyogre since it can reliably get up rocks, check Ferrothorn, destroy Palkia, and can threaten Latias / phaze Calm Mind variants. It also works well with Rayquaza because of the way it takes on Palkia and the reliable Stealth Rock support it provides. Unlike Rayquaza, Dialga does not care about Genesect's existance at all.

I ended up making this for Dialga awhile ago and had Theorymon look over it. He never got around to updating the OP though.
 
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[*]
(Dialga)
Dialga is probably one of the biggest nuisances in the BW Ubers environment. Its stat distribution is almost perfect in that it can take any one hit neutral hit from the almost the entire tier without the help of an ability like Sturdy. It can also threaten out just about every Pokemon in the tier with the correct move. What makes Dialga even more terrifying is its move pool. Given its annoying combination of excellent typing and bulk, Dialga stands out as the most reliable Stealth Rock setter in the tier (possibly even the game!) and this gets compounded by its ability to threaten every Rapid Spin user bar Tentacruel with a specific coverage move.
It is definitely not constricted to this role though, Dialga's stat distribution and move pool make it extremely versatile in that it can run Choiced sets, Mixed Attacking sets, Trick Room, and Bulk Up. It is also one of the few Pokemon that can run both offensive, and defensive Stealth Rock sets, so figuring out what Dialga is trying to do is sometimes a challenge in itself. It also functions extremely well with Kyogre since it can reliably get up rocks, check Ferrothorn, destroy Palkia, and can threaten Latias / phaze Calm Mind variants. It also works well with Rayquaza because of the way it takes on Palkia and the reliable Stealth Rock support it provides. Unlike Rayquaza, Dialga does not care about Genesect's existance at all.

I ended up making this for Dialga awhile ago and had Theorymon look over it. He never got around to updating the OP though.
Ok, since the only reason this wasn't there in the first place was because Theorymon didn't get around to updating it (and he even took a look at it), This is a good example of a write-up. Added.
 
Sorry for the double post, but I found some stuff out of the old thread that wasn't modified
Latios matching Latias' ranking (A+)

Sweep arguing to boost Latios to A+:
Latios------------------------------> Rise from A to A+

...but sometimes they are right on the money! Latios is a devastating, metagame defining force that every quality team MUST have an answer for. Latios possesses the power and movepool to decimate Stall, Balance, and Offensive teams alike. With Soul Dew, Latios reaches an astounding 538 special attack, allowing it to do ~65-70% or so to bulky Arceus forms with Draco Meteor. Its excellent 110 base speed stat allows it to outrun and OHKO speedy threats like Palkia, Garchomp, and Life Orb Terrakion. Though its movepool unfortunately lacks a strong Fire move, it gets excellent coverage moves in Thunder (allowing it to beat Skarmory and Lugia), Psyshock (which rips blobs and makes it an effective Calm Mind user), Grass Knot, Surf, and others. HP Fire can still deal ~45% to Ferrothorn in the rain so it isn't useless, but Latios can opt to run Roar with hazard support to deal with "checks" such as Heatran and Jirachi, as it usually only takes one well-timed Roar to put them in range of a 2HKO. Latios also gets Magic Coat to anti-lead Deoxys-S and send status right back at the opponent, meaning Thunder Wave Lugia is not a reliable way to deal with Latios even in sunlight.

The biggest downside to Latios is its inability to effectively check stuff. Sure, it can in on some variants of Kyogre, and its terrific ability in Levitate allow it to switch into predicted Ground moves (you also avoid Spikes/TSpikes unlike some other special Dragons), but unlike Latias it is not a surefire check to Kyogre. Unlike Extremekiller, it doesn't really need to worry about preserving its health too much, since it doesn't need a SD boost to start putting pressure on the opponent. For this reason I don't feel its inability to switch in on most threats is as damning for it as EKiller. So yeah...Latias is "better" as a pure Kyogre check but Latios puts more pressure on the opponent than Latias does and is more effective at breaking potential threats. I'd like for them to share A+ rank even though they have obvious differences. Melee Mewtwo and I agree that Palkia could probably be elevated along with Latios, but I'll let someone else argue for it.


Shrang arguing against Latios to A+
Latios, on the other hand, I believe is fine where he is (in A) and doesn't need to be bumped up. Don't get me wrong with this, I am not going to deny that Latios is an excellent Pokemon, but he doesn't belong in A+ for one reason - he has huge competition from Latias. Sure, there are definitely things Latios does better than Latias and vice versa, but I don't think we can deny that Latias, is in general, more versatile and fits onto more teams than Latios does. While she is weaker than Latios, she can run similar sets than Latios can to a similar effect, but with the added perk of switching into Kyogre, Palkia and a bunch of Pokemon way more effectively than Latios can. When you have Latios, you would need a more sturdy check to Kyogre and water spammers (eg Palkia), which means you're using an extra teamslot than when you can just use Latias and save that team slot. In short, using Latios means operating at a higher opportunity cost than using Latias. Since Latias is in A+, it would be logical that Latios should be lower than Latias, so I think mid A is a fine place. There were actually many times where I wanted to use Latios in gen 5, but found Latias much easier to put into most of my teams that Latios kind of missed out, and it's kind of questionable to run both on the same team.


My analysis: Hm, not easy to decide. On one hand, Latios can apply more pressure than Latias can, but Latias checks special attacks better. While it is true that Latios lacks Latias' titanic special bulk, Latios' own special bulk is nothing to scoff at either, and it can often force switches. However, Latios cannot check Kyogre/tank special attacks as well as Latias can, due to Latias' superior special bulk. However, Latios's superior SpA allows it to score some noticeable KOs, like on 252 HP Groudon using Grass Knot, something Latias cannot pull off. The thing about the Latis is that they are really similar,and basically share sets, so, for the most part, anything one Lati can do, the other one can likely do it too.

Since the latis are similar, I feel like choosing between them to be a matter if you want Latios' firepower or Latias' resilience. For that reason, I feel that they should be in equal rankings.
Verdict: Latios is moving to A+
 
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Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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C Rank
  • (Lugia)
I'm going to be that ass...

...really?

Under shit like Froslass and the like?

I get that Lugia in BW2 still has shoddy moments against some Pokemon, but this is also the generation where it got its Multiscale ability that let it cheese through mons that rely on Stone Edge to beat Lugia (and that are also slower, to boot). It's definitely a wall with flaws, but it is definitely a huge component to stall teams and even sometimes some balanced teams. I don't really have much to say on the subject since it's been eons since I played BW2 Ubers, but to see this thing in C+ is almost insulting.
 
IMO Lugia is usable on Sun teams because Weather Ball makes it more secure vs hazard setters like Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Bulky Excadrill if Sun is up. Otherwise, it gets curbstomped by Darkrai (one of the best mons in the tier) and completely set up on by any hazard setter. Zekrom and Kyurem-W are pretty solid mons in BW, too, even though the latter is very hard to fit. Practically all status ruins it and clerics are much harder to fit on BW teams than ORAS. It also invites spinners. I could see a rise to B- because of its obvious positive attributes but I don't like Lugia very much in BW2.
 

Celestavian

Smooth
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Speaking of Kyurem-W, why is it only B? It's not particularly fast, but that Specs Draco Meteor combined with its other coverage moves is just unstoppable without Fairy-types to absorb it. With just Stealth Rock up, the only Pokemon in the entire Ubers metagame that can switch in without being 2HKOed from full health by Draco Meteor are 252/252+ Jirachi, Ferrothorn and Arceus-Steel. Being weak to Stealth Rock and hard to switch in sometimes aren't good things, but I don't think there is anything better for ripping apart stall or bulky offense without using something like CM Refresh Latias, and I remember stall being quite common in tournaments and stuff.
 
Update Time!

First things first, the write-ups are being dropped. Due to the fact that clicking on the name of a pokemon brings you to their analysis (except for F-rank), it seems redundant to have write-ups when you can get the same data from the analysis page.

Next thing up are some viability changes.

Bisharp
My analysis: Bisharp might have good Atk, and passable Def, but it it frail, due to its typing. Many special attackers can take off a huge amount of HP from it even with resisted hits, as even Genesect takes special hits better (71/95 Gene vs 65/70 Bish). It also has a lot of trouble setting up, due to its frailty. Even though it has passable Def, most physical attackers usually run a Fighting, Fire, or Ground type move, which when combined with really good Atk stats, means that Bisharp is still getting OHKO'd even by support Groudon's Earthquake. Even if you switch it in against a wall, even if the wall(s) in question are Lugia or Giratina, two pokemon that Bisharp has a definitive type advantage against, due to a titanic Def stat combined with abilities that can reduce damage even more combined with phazing and/or statuses means that Bisharp still cannot set up against them. However, Bisharp does hold one particular advantage in that it has a priority move that hits about as hard as Extreme Killer Arceus's E-speed in the form of Sucker Punch, which can allow it to revenge kill weakened Pokemon. However, Sucker Punch is marred by the fact that it only works when the opponent attacks themselves, making even this niche very, very difficult to use.
Verdict: Dropped to D-rank. The only thing preventing Bisharp from becoming unranked is its Sucker Punch, and even then, just barely.

Gastrodon

My analysis: Gastrodon's niche is doing a very good job of switching to Kyogre, checking all of its sets, even checking the Specs set, as it is immune to both Water moves and Thunder, while Ice Beam only 3HKOs. It also makes a good check to most forms of CM Arceus, as +1 Judgement only 3HKOs, while +0 Judgement 4HKOs, provided a neutral Judgement, as well as removing their stat boosts using Clear Smog. The only CM Arceus forms it cannot check are Arceus-Steel, due to the Clear Smog immunity, and Arceus-Grass, due to being able to hit Gastrodon's weakness (I would like to point out, however, that Calm Mind Arceus-Grass is a rarity to see and is often outclassed by other CM Arceuses, and walled by quite a few Pokemon, like Ho-oh, so CM Arceus-Grass does not make much of a case against Gastrodon). It also has access to Scald, allowing it to attempt to burn switch-ins in an attempt to reduce the foe's durability and strength of their physical attacks. It can run either Ice Beam or Toxic for a 3rd move, the former hitting Rayquaza if it tries to switch in (do take note that Jolly LO Ray has a 43.8% chance to OHKO Gastrodon using Outrage, and this becomes guaranteed if Rayquaza is Adamant), while the latter can weaken, KO, and (if they know about it) discourage anything that it checks from staying in and trying to muscle past it. It also checks the majority of Swift Swimmers, except for Omastar running HP Grass, and Ludicolo, as the variants carrying a Grass-type attack can 2HKO Gastrodon, and even ones without a Grass type attack still aren't threatened by Gastrodon, as Gastrodon cannot break Ludicolo's Substitute in one hit, allowing Ludicolo to try to stall Gastrodon out, or switch to someone else who would like a small amount of HP back from Leech Seed. And despite having a good typing and ability for checking most special attackers, its physical bulk is lacking, as even with 252 HP EVs, Support Groudon has a 66.7% chance to 2HKO using Earthquake, to say nothing from the likes of dedicated physical attackers, like Extreme Killer Arceus, who has a 98.7% chance to 2HKO using Silk Scarf Adamant, without boosts. Special attacker that wield Choice Specs and have a STAB move that Gastrodon doesn't resist, like Palkia and White Kyurem can 2HKO using their STABs. Ferrothorn is also extremely annoying, being able to set up hazards and the like at Gastrodon, as well as OHKO using Power Whip, while the best thing Gastrodon can do is get lucky with Scald and hope for a burn.

Verdict: Boosted to C+. It has a pretty good niche at stopping Rain teams and most CM Arceus forms, however, its usefulness declines during other weathers, particularly vs Sun. Even when not in rain, it still checks most non-Specs special attacker dragons, though the likes of the Latis can 2HKO using Psyshock, and Life Orb Kyurem-White, though Timid has a 25.8% chance to 2HKO Gastrodon. Modest guarantees the 2HKO. In a shellnut, it has a pretty good niche, and it does it well.

Beartic and Victreebel

My analysis: Beartic, despite being the only Ice-type with Swift Swim, and a good 110 Atk stat, is way too frail, due to having only slightly better defences than Genesect, while having a really BAD defensive typing, which leaves it weak to SR and vulnerable to Spikes. It also is the slowest Swift Swimmer by far, only having base 50 Spe. It also only has Ice-type for STAB, while the other Swift Swimmers at least have one two STABs.

Victreebel is straight up outclassed by Venusaur in basically every way, except for Weather Ball being Stronger than HP Fire. But at least HP Fire doesn't change type in sand.

Verdict: Both are getting dropped. I just explained Victreebel, while Beartic is unique, but utterly outclassed by the other Swift Swimmers to a painful degree, especially compared to Kabutops.

Now then, I would do more analysis's, but it's nearly 2:40 where I am, and I'm really tired.

I'll update the OP, then I'm off. Goodnight everybody, and stay tuned for another update of BW2 Viability rankings! ;]


PS. It might not hurt to update the Gen 5 analysises if they're relatively old, just in case people get confused between what the Viability Rankings say,and what the Gen 5 analysises say.
 
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Froslass as a lead Spiker for A- imo, stops cloyster, deo-a/s only get 1 layer of spikes against it and has icy wind to neutralize scarfers. only downside is that it doesn't have access to Rapid Spin :[

P.S: Scarf Hydreigon for S, it checks everything.

Also I agree Darkrai should be A+ and Genesect should be S.
 
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The only dice propositions I oppose are skymin/lando-t and maybe ho-oh. The former 2 is maybe because I lack experience building with them, idk. Lando-t for me has always been that mon that theoretically fits well on rain balance but in practice it mostly makes your team weak to kabu because it has horrible synergy with the usual checks that rain deploys (like rayquaza and giratina-o). And being weak to swimmers, and especially the kabu as mentioned, is something I feel is big no no in this meta. Skymin is like eh... Annoying? I don't think there are too many builds it fits well on. Seems like a clear cut b-rank mon to me.

Ho-oh proposal has the issue that the phoenix isn't very splashable, which I guess these ranks should take into account. Sure, it is mandatory on some builds and those builds are very dangerous to face, but that's about it. I don't buy rain ho-oh and I'm not overly keen on sand ho-oh either.

Also, sorry sweep, but the placements on kabu and omastar must be a joke. There has never been any real opinion that omastar was actually better than kabu, who is physical (which is a better side to attack from in the meta), has rapid spin, is faster than genesect and outspeeds omastar itself. Kabu has always been a clear cut above oma so please fix that.

As for the froslass suggestion- I simply think it's an underwhelming mon. The darkrai weakeness is a big part of it, limiting froslass to builds that have a good dedicated sleep absorber. Essentially it has to be sdef kyogre, because its lack of rapid spin, unlike cloyster, makes it very hard to justify cb ho-oh. I don't think it's a very good deo-s anti lead either. So we assume you are up vs a team with darkrai+deo-s. You win the 50-50 and lead froslass vs deo-s. Fine. Deo-s just sets SR. You icy wind. Another 50-50, deo-s user can simply switch to darkrai on the sball for free and the only thing froslass accomplished was a sash break. If darkrai switches into spikes, it's also fine because sleep will be landed. Also, deo-s is still alive so it can be used to gain momentum as death fodder, further reinforcing the match up disadvantage froslass has vs HO. If you icy wind again, when darkrai switches in, you should be fine, which means you only need to win two 50-50s in a row to get anywhere good. And yes, this is the best case scenario. Worst case you happen to lead froslass and run into darkrai, and unless you have sdef ogre you are toast. My conclusion is: why would you run this mon over deo-a which can actually effectively neuter deo-s+darkrai combo and has significant offense presence to boot?
 
Also, sorry sweep, but the placements on kabu and omastar must be a joke. There has never been any real opinion that omastar was actually better than kabu, who is physical (which is a better side to attack from in the meta), has rapid spin, is faster than genesect and outspeeds omastar itself. Kabu has always been a clear cut above oma so please fix that.
I agree with this 100%, I intended to address this in my post but I forgot, Kabutops just has more uses than Omastar, it's easier to fit on tams, outspeeds some of the Scarf users, has Spin support and is one of the few spinners that can hurt Giratina-O or Arceus-Ghost by itself. Omastarhas 2 sets I think...? one of them requires a lot of support (Shell Smash) and the other (Specs) and both of them can be overwhelmed by the same mons in my humble opinion (Sp.def Kyogre, Ferro, etc..) while Kabutops can do so much just with one set, some people run Choice Band but I think that set is very disfunctional (I don't like my spinner to be choiced), Life Orb on the other hand, has more utility stuff thanks to it being able to switch moves, the amount of mons it checks with hazard support is quite large, some of the mons on the list are: Dialga and Ekiller (Low Kick), Offensive Kyogre, Palkia, Latis and Skymin (Stone Edge), Genesect, Mewtwo, Darkrai (Huge, with Waterfall) and can Spin. tl;dr: Omastar is a peasant compared to Kabutops imo.

About the Froslass thing, first, I applaud you for posting this, you mentioned stuff that I didn't even consider when I made my post so you reminding me of them was nice and I'll probably be more careful in the scenario that you were very specific in. I'd still like to discuss it though.

As for the froslass suggestion- I simply think it's an underwhelming mon. The darkrai weakeness is a big part of it, limiting froslass to builds that have a good dedicated sleep absorber.
Hmm, not to sound rude but, how is this not the case with any other anti lead that isn't Deo-S/A. That's just something that you need to consider using the mon, and it's not that all of the sleep absorbers are useless. Lead matchup is also kind of a thing in BW since there's a lot of leads around so naturally Froslass would not like some matchups like some of the other leads.
Essentially it has to be sdef kyogre, because its lack of rapid spin, unlike cloyster, makes it very hard to justify cb ho-oh. I don't think it's a very good deo-s anti lead either.
I could be wrong but I don't think it has to be Sp.Def Kyogre. I don't think you need to justify CB Ho-Oh unless your trying to build around it, in which case I would call you a big doofus because Froslass and Ho-Oh simply don't match, I don't think you disagree with me on this on this one...? Another thing is that Kyogre isn't necessarily the only Sleep absorber, there's other mons such as Terrakion and Zekrom which are pretty good with Froslass if you ask me. Terrakion is shaky because of Focus Blast but the same could be said about Ho-Oh and Kyogre since Darkrai might carry Thunder. Regarding Ho-Oh, only lead Spiker that can justify Ho-Oh in HO is Cloyster (and maybe Forry) in which case you'd be crushed by Darkrai if it has Thunder and 2hkos ur Ho-Oh on switch, it's more about matchup in that regard.

So we assume you are up vs a team with darkrai+deo-s. You win the 50-50 and lead froslass vs deo-s. Fine. Deo-s just sets SR. You icy wind. Another 50-50, deo-s user can simply switch to darkrai on the sball for free and the only thing froslass accomplished was a sash break. If darkrai switches into spikes, it's also fine because sleep will be landed. Also, deo-s is still alive so it can be used to gain momentum as death fodder, further reinforcing the match up disadvantage froslass has vs HO. If you icy wind again, when darkrai switches in, you should be fine, which means you only need to win two 50-50s in a row to get anywhere good. And yes, this is the best case scenario. Worst case you happen to lead froslass and run into darkrai, and unless you have sdef ogre you are toast. My conclusion is: why would you run this mon over deo-a which can actually effectively neuter deo-s+darkrai combo and has significant offense presence to boot?
Well I don't necessarily disagree with any of that because I agree that it is a tough matchup, however, I think there's 2 scenarios in which you win if they lead Deo-S without forcing 50/50s:

1) Icy Wind + Taunt: I'm just going to say that it's probably better to Taunt as it is the safer play. You force Darkrai to Dark Pulse after they switch in instead of using Dark Void,which in that scenario you'd be able to Icy Wind and set up Spikes afterwards, Icy Wind first just in case they decide to switch into something faster thinking you're just gonna fodder it but that's just me. If Dark Pulse flinches you with Dark Pulse there's a chance it activates Froslass' Curse Body ability and block Darkrai from using Dark Pulse and if it doesn't have Thunder you can just either set up a layer of Spikes or Icy Wind the Deoxys-S or scarfer on the switch and set up a layer of Spikes.

2) Icy Wind + Icy Wind: This is some MLG shit but it is as rewarding as the first one, if not more because it gives you more options. You can Taunt afterwards or just set up 2 layers of Spikes if you get one prediction right.


Froslass is probably not as good as I think it but is a mon that has always worked well for me whenever I used it, parts of my argument came from personal experience in tours, it also depends on how you play it ofc. I could see why some people consider it not as functional as I do though, so maybe giving it a position in the A- tier is an overstatement.

P.S: I don't really care about viability rankings but I just love discussing Black 2 and White 2 Ubers stuff lol
 
Since I have a few updates, I'm skipping the full analysises that I would normally do, as those take a lot of time.

Forry: Dropping to B+. It works well at setting hazards up, and can check most spinblockers (and Ekiller lol), however, it destroys your offensive pressure, and the spinblockers can run moves to check it, not to mention it's not too good at spinning anyways.

Darkrai: Rising to A+. This thing is a tricky pokemon that can seriously cripple an opposing team if used right, and it can have enough variance in its 4th move to screw people over, like T-wave to beat scarfers, Substitute to screw some people over, or Thunder to beat SDef Kyogre and Ho-oh.

Cloyster: Rising to B. This thing works well as a hazard lead that can win vs Deoxys. I can't say anything about the sweeper set, but I do feel that it is better than most of the pokemon in B-, as it gets hazards up well, checks Gira spinblockers, and even has access to T-spikes, which is a very good hazard.

Genesect: Rising to S. This thing is considered the best scarfer in the game, because it generates so much offensive pressure it's not even funny, due to having a powerful u-turn. And since the scarf set is so ubiquitous, You can get away with Banded or Expert Belt set if you're good at maintaining a bluff.

Lugia: Rising to B-. The main thing rising it to B- is the fact that if you run it on a sun team, you can defeat Steel Types using Weather Ball( aside from Heatran, but, well, Heatran). Otherwise, you're weak to Steel types should you not run this particular set, Toxic, and being liable to give your opponent a chance to set up hazards on your side of the field, and there's no Defog in this gen either, so no easy hazard removal.

Will deal with Froslass and Omastar vs Kabutops later.
 
Just wondering, why is Kabutops B+ and Omastar A-? I've always thought Kabu>Oma, just for the extra speed, ability to hit on the physical side, and better matchup versus offense
 
Just wondering, why is Kabutops B+ and Omastar A-? I've always thought Kabu>Oma, just for the extra speed, ability to hit on the physical side, and better matchup versus offense
A mix of me not updating this, and having grabbed the initial list from the previous thread of this :P
 
Alright, with the BW2 ULT coming up, I'm gonna boost Kabutops up to A-. I consider the two pokemon foils, in the sense that they both attack well from different sides of the spectrum, have different kinds of hazard support (T/Spikes vs Rapid Spin), and can both sweep if they have to. They also have pokemon that one can check while the other has trouble doing so (Groudon can switch into Kabutops, but has more troubles with Omastar. In another Example, Kabutops can handle Scarf Terrakion, while Omastar is still too slow for that). I'd say they work on different types of teams, with Kabutops being more offensively inclined, while Omastar prefers a balanced team. I honestly don't think one is better than the other.
 
Omastar is worse than Kabu and every competent BW2 player knows why (yes, even Sweep knows Omastar is much more niche, even if he personally likes it more).

These ranks are still quite the joke regardless with Mewtwo being in the same rank as Palkia (palkia not being a+ is actually just weird), Arc-Ground being as high as Grass or Steel etc. I would give adequate reasoning but considering what happened last time I think I'm gonna pass on that
 
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aurora

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Nominating
for C-. I know the prominence of Kyogre in this metagame and the fact that it is affected by every entry hazard known to humankind in such a hazard-centric metagame really fucks it over. However, because its STAB is boosted by the sun, it is still capable of winning Calm Mind wars with other Arceus formes when the sun is up, which redeems it somewhat; Fire is also a fair offensive typing that has nice neutral coverage and hits the omnipresent Genesect super-effectively(!!!) It's not even that helpless against Kyogre, as it can hit the whale for decent damage on the switch-in with moves like Thunder and simultaneously threaten it with paralysis. I know it really isn't that great, but D is too low for it in my opinion. Bottom of C- would probably be good for it.

Here are some replays of it in action.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ubers-353706008
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ubers-320935628

Edit: Can Thundurus-T be unranked? It was recently deemed to be unfit for an analysis.
:mad:
 
Darkrai to S rank.
Reasons:
--Life Orb item option with Dark Pulse + Focus Blast. Basic, amazing coverage and damage that is really good for Ubers standards. Not weather reliant.
--Great options in Thunder and Taunt, Nasty Plot and Substitute (these are meh options IMO), and even Sucker Punch is viable for Mewtwo. This leaves it fairly unexploitable. It can tailor to your team, and the team can tailor to it. (Offensive teams anyway, and offense is probably the best playstyle.)
--Faster than Arceus and Lati@s.
--Dark Pulse can flinch. Thunder can para. Focus Blast can lower sp. def. Cool possibilities. Risk reward is great with this mon. Your only worries are missing!
--Dark Void + being fast means you are putting something to sleep nearly every battle. Darkrai essentially trades itself for at least one "kill" a game if played right, but on average it just does so much more than that.
--Dark Void + Bad Dreams damage <-- underrated.
--Dark Void + guessing games. Sleep Talk will always be an unreliable counterplay. Better off putting Lum Berry somewhere on your team. (Lum E-Killer gets mad props in my book.)
--Good switch-in to Arceus-Ghost and sometimes Giratina-O. Really. People like overusing these ghosts, so there will likely be one on the opposing team.
--Decent against Tyranitar if encountered in a lead match-up.

Arceus-Normal (Extreme Killer) to S rank.
Reasons:
--Item option. Huge perk that helps in throwing off opposing strategies.
--Extreme Killer is a superior offensive threat, the best Arceus available. The opportunity cost argument does not apply when it is superior - in practice.
--How many times have you been in a battle with a different Arceus form and you've thought how much better off you could be if you had an Extreme Killer?
--Priority. So clutch.
--The coverage moves/surprising fourth move options can keep things interesting and throw off the opponent's strategies.

As a consequence, Arceus-Ghost and Genesect to A+ because they're just not as good in practice, and are, in some ways, easier to prepare for and play around. (Items are key here.) Genesect is more of a "defining force" than Ghostceus, looking at it, but that is due to Darkrai and even the Lati twins. Give Darkrai some credit.
 
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shrang

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Arceus-Normal (Extreme Killer) to S rank.
Reasons:
--Item option. Huge perk that helps in throwing off opposing strategies.
--Extreme Killer is a superior offensive threat, the best Arceus available. The opportunity cost argument does not apply when it is superior - in practice.
--How many times have you been in a battle with a different Arceus form and you've thought how much better off you could be if you had an Extreme Killer?
--Priority. So clutch.
--The coverage moves/surprising fourth move options can keep things interesting and throw off the opponent's strategies.
- Item: Tbh you literally have 3 options, which really doesn't change how you deal with Ekiller. Lum Berry is the only thing that SORT of throws off some potential checks, but the only ones you throw off are secondary checks like WoW Rockceus. Not to mention you're now weak as fuck.
- Actually it matters a lot of the time. Ekiller literally only fits on HO since it has a shitty defensive typing and therefore can't actually be a reliable switch into anything - not saying it can't switch into anything, but you can't actually use Ekiller to "counter" anything.
- Actually, let's reverse this question. How many times have you been in a battle with Ekiller and wished you had a different Arceus forme (eg Fightceus, Ghostceus, Grassceus, Groundceus, Water/Eleceus for rain, FIRECEUS THE GOD)? For me, pretty much every time I'm not using HO!
- Priority: I'll admit it's really good, but this is literally the only indispensable thing about Ekiller. Everything else is replaceable. That's why it's A+ and not lower.
- You have a lot of options, but tbh, you really have about 2-3 options that aren't gimmicks.

 
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Speaking of weather based Arceus formes, Arc-Elec probably warrants a raise to B, or at least above Abomasnow lol. Its a pretty potent offensive cm arc, and while its restricted to rain, it acts as a soft check to other cm arc, a decent ho-oh check, and an all around threatening sweeper. Ferro is kinda annoying but it wont actually kill you unless it has toxic and resisting steel means gene cant iron head spam you to death. Its not a perfect mon obviously (spded dialga shits on it, eq everywhere, if its running thunder you need to win a potential weather war) but its definitely better than the hazards weak hazards bait abomasnow.
 

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