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Discussion in 'Ubers' started by jackm, Feb 12, 2013.
Genesect is also a very good mon to pair with Latios later.
Scarf ter cnt do much in ubers hes earily checked when locked in. Idt hes the best member for this team. With huge threats like groudon kyogre and giratina taking any hit by him no problem and having the potential to set up. I think hes to much of a risk
wow lol if i hadn't read your post, i thought you voted for Scarf Terrakion. mmm Terrakion still hits Kyogre pretty hard and other things can deal with Kyogre/Giratina *cough cough Dialga cough cough*
Guys, please keep the activity on this up. The other two got locked because of inactivity, and I'm not going to start another one if this one gets locked.
also akuto wtf happened to your grammar
both terrakion and genesect 2hkos kyogre, and get hard walled by giratina and groudon, and are set up bait when locked wrongly
We'll try our best! lousy918, akuto, and I all post very often and we often have other members post here too! Not gonna let this die! Just need... more... people...! Also, in regards to Terrakion vs. Genesect: Terrakion has a higher base Speed and not counting the Download boost (it's unreliable) Terrakion is stronger as well. It also functions as a good EK Arceus check as well as a way to reliably beat Steel types that Genesect can't. However, their roles differ as Genesect is more of a scout while Terrakion is a late-game kind of mon. Up to you guys I guess! :) MOAR POSTS PLEASE! SIGNAL BUMP!
As has been mentioned several times, a reliable and fast hazards lead is looking like a good choice to pair with Latios right at the start due to the offensive nature of the team that we're looking to build.
the problem with deoxys-s is that it stacks with latios, not much but still
ttar happily rapes them both
ekiller can play mind games with deoxys-s, SDing on hazards and killing with priority if taunt is predicted, plus ekiller counters are skarmory whose function stacks with deoxys-s, groudon whose not allowed, and all other counters are weak to dark and ghost, which latios and deoxys-s are weak to.
everything genesect can revenge can be revenged by terrakion except like mewtwo, which can be revenged from half health and does as much as gira-o's shadow sneak.
genesect is also hard walled by heatran together with latios, latios already beats kyogre and groudon so terrakion and genesect need not do so. same applies to Ho-oh and ferrothorn under rain who can leech seed all day. both can revenge ddray. u-turn can scout, but that isn't a good thing when trying to beat darkceus, one of latios' best counters. genesect cannot best genesect, while terrakion can revenge genesect from 72% for a guaranteed kill. although genesect has a better defensive typing, its complete lack of bulk makes that useless, while if the opponent runs sandstorm, terrakion can take almost all special hits. latios also baits dark attacks, giving terrakion a free attack boost.
@ lousy918: The reason people are picking Deoxys-S is because it is a necessity for this team, pretty much. Without weather, this team will be pretty weak and hazards work to ensure those crucial KOs. Furthermore, typestacking doesn't matter as much as Deoxys-S is just supposed to spam hazards and die. If Tyranitar is really that much of an issue, I guess we could run Superpower on Deoxys-S or something, though we don't really have to.
Terrakion I like the best because it is probably one of the best offensive Arceus-Normal checks, but I guess if we really wanted to, we could go with CM Arceus-Fighting. Lastly, Genesect can reliably beat Lati@s and gains a lot of offensive momentum with U-Turn. However, I still believe Terrakion is our best choice, though Deoxys-S will probably need to go on this team as well.
Voting is now closed! Our winner is Deoxys-S; congrats Anikrahman. While I originally intended (and explicitly stated, but oh well) for this poll to be that which chooses a member of our offensive core, we'll simply have another one for that. At least we have our hazard setter which IMO would have ended up on our team regardless. From now on though, unless a role is disputed in necessity (rapid spinner, for instance) I will only accept submissions for that role. If you have something cool that fills a different role, wait your turn.
Anyways, assuming we proceed normally, this means that we have to do another vote for offensive core member numero dos. Obviously, the addition of a new team member will probably shift our views on some of the previous submissions; discuss. I'll update the OP and use discretion as to when to open the submissions.
I thought the whole point if the CCAT was to make a team that would be both innovative and competitive. I'm sure it's going to be competitive but I'm not sure it's going to be innovative. There's nothing innovative about a Deoxys-S hyper offense team. That's why I don't think Deoxys-S was the best thing to pick.
If you are using a hazard poke then you should have a spinblocker. Since this is an offensive team, Gira-A is out of the question. I'd like to suggest
50 HP 252 Atk 216 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw/Shadow Force
- Brick Break
Unlike its CM counterpart, it applies pressure with just one set up turn (SD). It also bypasses some faster threats with Espeed+hazards. Also, the two bulkier def walls (Lugia and Gira-A) are weak to its STAB. Groudon doesn't have reliable recovery so even if a +2 Shadow Claw does around 40ish% it allows for other physical sweepers to have an easier time later on. The set provided is the one I'm more comfortable with, if it gets accepted I can see the set getting changed but I don't really care.
uh isn't the number of votes for terrakion and deoxys-s equal (4 or 5 if u include me for terrakion, 4 for deoxys-s, 3 for genesect)
in which case I vote for Scarfed Terrakion.
also deoxys-s isn't a necessity, we could use ferrothorn to set up spikes more reliably counter kyogre just giving an example
Voting has closed. You can't vote now.
There are a few things you should know:
1) We are building an offensive team - a team that does not allow Pokemon to switch in and set up.(Ferrothorn lol)
2) Offensive teams do not needs real counters to every major threat. Revenge-killing is sufficient.
3) Do you even understand what Deoxys-S does? It sets up hazards and then dies. Type stacking is not an issue.
Now that we have Deoxys-S, a spinblocker is mandatory. Nominating this:
Sonido (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
EVs: 176 Atk / 248 Def / 84 Spd
- Dragon Tail
- Shadow Sneak
The combination of Deoxys-S and Giratina-O (+Latios) will ensure that not a single Rapid Spinner will be able to pull off a successful rapid spin. This Giratina-O can act as a one-time check to ExtremeKiller Arceus as not even a Life Orb and Swords Dance boosted Shadow Claw KOs Giratina-O even after Stealth Rock damage. In return, Giratina-O's Dragon Tail does approximately 25% damage. Combined with Stealth Rock and Spikes, Arceus will be left at 25% next time it switches in(i.e 25% as it switches in + 25% from Dragon Tail + 25% next time it switches in). This Giratina-O can check (counter) all physically based weather dependant sweepers such as Excadrill, Kabutops, Qwilfish and unboosted Beartic. It can also check some other physical attackers such as Terrakion and Rock Polish Groudon. Shadow Sneak allows it to revenge kill weakened Latios, Latias, Mewtwo, OHKO Deoxys-A from full health(if it is not holding a Focus Sash) and limit Deoxys-S to one layer of hazard(if it does not switch out).
Shadow Sneak does around 25% to common frail offensive Pokemon. Combine that with Stealth Rock and Spikes (another 25% damage) and Extremekiller Arceus's(if we decide to use this) ExtremeSpeed, and we have all frail sweepers checked. The benefit of adding Extremekiller Arceus is that it prevens Shadow Force Arceus from sweeping our team[if, (and yes, that is a lot "if"s) we decide not to add Terrakion in the later stages]
Outrage is a suicidal move that is used when we desparately need to kill some frail offensive Pokemon(e.g Scarf Kyogre) -most of them are OHKOed after Stealth Rock and Spikes- or when we need to weaken Dialga/Groudon.
84 Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Tentacruel and Bulky Excadrill and hit them with Earthquake/Outrage(this OHKOs Tentacruel most of the time). 248 Defense EVs let it survive Arceus +2 Life Orb Shadow Claw while also adding some physical bulk, allowing to take on other physical attackers. The rest is poured into Attack and the Adamant nature gives it a bonus point in Attack.
ANYWAY, it is unanimous (Hack He Must, Sweep, Blitzlefan, Jackm, Enguarde and I think so) - Deoxys-S would have to be added sooner or later.
See this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5576134/
| Teammates |
| Giratina-Origin +18.918% |
| Arceus +14.856% |
| Latios +9.270% |
| Rayquaza +8.684% |
| Darkrai +6.549% |
| Terrakion +5.806% |
| Arceus-Ghost +3.078% |
| Genesect +2.508% |
| Mewtwo +2.301% |
^They are Deoxys-S's most common teammates. They are all offensive Pokemon.
The Pokemon I bolded are all STRONG choices for the CCAT.
Rayquaza's and Mewtwo's role overlaps with Latios. We need to cover as many roles in 6 slots. Thus, overlapping is a bad idea.
EDIT: @Lousy: Please clarify what you are saying. Right now, I have no idea what you are talking about.
look, the vote is a tie, hence there is no reason to choose your suggestion over mine
did u even read the whole post? I'm surprised at how blind u are, considering u called me blind
also u voted for urself and I didn't
in case u haven't realised yet deoxys-s is support, not offense
Lol jack i use my phone sometimes and it sucks :l that's what happened to grammar. and about terrakion V gene i think genesect would be a better option. he can't do a thing to defensive giratina other than stone edge. and genesect if you carry flamethrower he is a reliable steel killer but not so much as terrakion. personally i would take genesect any day over terrakion just my opinion since genesect can do alot more than terrakion as far as I've seen. and he already discussed giratina-O i believe? We are building an offensive core for hazards i think regular giratina would be the better choice due to bulk and dragon tail. if we were to run him he would most likely be sleep talk with wilo which basically leaves us heatran weak. he isn't too common i know but we must take note. flash fire users i wouldn't want to take chances on either. so i would go with bulky giratina-O. I'm on the edge about it due to the set Anki being genesect week and countered by rest/talk bulk up groundon which is a NIGHTMARE. i think it is also a hazard set up for foro. also a set up for ferro. And like i said before arceus +2 ~shadow force can destroy you wth ease. i have to give him some thought maybe mess with it a bit on PS some more. But giratina is for sure a must have on this team in my book. unless we roll a arceus ghost.
We need all your ideas so tell all your groups and friends to post their ideas! every vote counts!
Also, first, the vote was a tie, even without the extra Terrakion vote, so ... meh... ?
Well I suppose I'll comment upon this. Regular Giratina wouldn't work because then that's defensive core. Giratina-A is most decidedly a defensive mon because of its pitiful offenses. Giratina-O is not necessarily setup bait because it can A) phaze it out and rack up entry hazard damage and B) some sets can cripple mons with Will-o-Wisp. Giratina-O is also NOT countered by RestTalk BU Groudon (Is that even a thing?) because then their only move would probably be Earthquake? Also, Giratina-O can just phaze any RestTalk users out while they are asleep, resetting the sleep counter and allowing for more damage and an easier KO. It's also not particularly Genesect weak because A) Gensect locked onto Ice Beam is pretty weak, and B) most Genesect just U-Turn out when they see Giratina-O.
Lastly, I'm not sure about the EV spread, but I guess it could work. I'm really used to 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe for more overall bulk, but I suppose a more defensively oriented variant could work.
You're right I suppose, in that Giratina-O will be able to tank physical blows more easily, but then it's less capable of surviving special attacks. Losing 8 more HP upon entry doesn't really matter all that much considering Giratina-O's massive HP stat. Also, Arceus-Normal running Life Orb isn't all that common (it's usually Silk Scarf I think? That's what I run.) But in the end, I think it's okay. Lastly, recommending maybe a couple points of speed creep? Other than that, I'm fine with Giratina-O.
The reason for my EV spread is simple:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 325-385 (73.69 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 411-486 (81.54 - 96.42%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
1/8th of the 63 HP gained from 252 HP EVs would be wasted every time Giratina-O has to switch in because of Stealth Rock damage.
EDIT: I edited my last post. You may want to see it.
1/8 of its bulk would be wasted by sr, not just HP. that's misleading
jackm and blitzlefan did not vote for deoxys-s
I actually really like SD Arceus-Ghost however, as it can usually beat Arceus-Normal. I'd probably rather run Shadow Force than Shadow Claw (for power) but Shadow Claw is more reliable. Also, 172 Spe just to troll all the Arceus-Normal running around with 168 Spe. Outspeeding their Shadow Claw and hitting with Brick Break first every time is pretty funny.
Also, @ lousy918: I didn't vote for Deoxys-S, but most of us have agreed that sooner or later, Deoxys-S was going to be chosen. I even suggested basically the same set a couple pages back, and the style of hazards offense was talked about a lot earlier.
Also, @ Anikrahman1995: ummm... you sound a little harsh let's try to keep this nice please
I'd be cool with gira-o but we have latios already and most likely we will have another dragon in our team. Dunno how helpful it is to have yet another -dragon- as a spinblocker. Also, Gira-O gets outsped by almost anything.
Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast
Offensive CM Arceus Ghost is in my opinion,one of the best special sweepers and spin blocker out there in Ubers.After just one CM,it can outspeed and OHKO almost the entire Ubers tier with SR+Spikes down.Even without the HP investments,Arceus Ghost is incredibly bulky and can easily set up multiple CMs on special attackers like Dialga and Palkia lacking Roar/Dragon Tail.Speaking of them,Scarf Palkia and Scarf Dialga will likely to come in in order to revenge kill Latios,Defensive Dialga can also take a hit from -2 Latios and hit back.So they can be drawn out and set up on if we pick CM Arceus Ghost as it's partner.It's set up opportunity doesn't end there.It can set up on almost anything not remotely powerful and faster such as Scarf Kyogre,Mewtwo etc (Mewtwo loses 1v1 and Kyogre loses with Hazards down and at +1+1) or something that can cripple Arceus such as certain status inducers.
Arceus-Ghost makes an excellent partner with Latios as it can take advantage of Latios's ability to weaken/kill Ferrothorn and Pink Blobs while being able to bust open most of Latios's walls such as SpDef Lugia,some SpDef Arceus forms and such.It can come in and sponge U-turns from Genesect aimed at Latios forcing it to take hazard damage and there are very few pokemon who can immediately force out offensive CM Arceus Ghost.
So why use this set over Giratina-O,SD Arceus-Ghost or simply over the standard max HP variant.First of all,this set's ability to set up and sweep with ease along with recover gives it a major advantage over first two.Add in the natural bulk+recover to take hits much more easily ehich imo makes it a better choice to be paired up with Latios.Finally,the SpAtk EVs gets it lots of extra KOs at +1 and lets you hit hard right of the bat if needed.Even traditional methods can be played around.Standard Ho-oh is OHKOed at +1 after rocks,Darkrai loses with sleep clause active and if it doesn't hold Life Orb.ScarfOgre loses at +1 with Hazards up,SpDef Kyogre can only phaze you out losing eventually because of the extra power. Arceus-Ghost also makes a decent Arceus-Normal check as it can take a +2 shadow claw,outspeed most variants and can 2HKO with Focus Blast(70 acc makes it meh though)while being immune to Espeed,giving us secondary method to deal with Ekiller once we pick our dedicated Ekiller check.
The downside includes only the overlapping of Dark and Ghost weakness but I think it's very small price that can be dealt with easily when considering the advantages it brings.
Well, this is embarassing; I miscounted the vote, as many have pointed out. Until we solve this issue, I'd like for us to suspend discussion of further teammates. Now, I have three courses of action that I think would make sense to resolve the hailstorm of emotion that arose from the mistake.
1: Run another vote with solely Deoxys-S and Scarf Terrakion to break the tie.
2: Admit both to the team, considering they're both good choices.
3: Admit Scarf Terrakion, considering I did expressly say that I wanted this poll to be for an offensive core member.
I'll decide later, but right now I'm leaning towards 1. If anyone has any opinions on this, share them.
so now we're voting whether to vote or not lol
this post shall be reserved for when I decide which option
yeah tbh I'm leaning towards #2 too, since I would have gone for #3 except deoxys-s would go on the team eventually
so #2 it is