Just picking on you cause your post was right after mine and sums up the way of thinking that I want to generally address.Shadow force > shadow claw versions of sd ghostceus curbstomps our current team since terrakion does little to nothing against it.
Edit: also sd arceus while relying on 60/70 base power attacks as opposed to cm arceus 100/120 base power don't forget that sword dance gives arceus a +2 Atk as opposed to calm mind's +1 which ultimately gives sd variants of arceus more overall power.
Skarmory will just throw away offensive momentum to stack up on extra support. In general though, keep in mind that offensive teams generally satisfy themselves with just checking threats as losing one of their team members isn't a big deal.
Anyways, I really want to avoid adding Giratina-O to the team. It has really poor synergy with Latios and doesn't really have anything special with Terrak or Deo-S, either. (outside of support stuff) The main thing I feel that is pulling us to picking Tina over Ghostceus, despite the latter's better offensive synergy with Latios, is the fact that it checks so many weather sweepers that are keen on cleaning our helpless team. I thought about it some and I think I came up with a solution. Rayquaza has pretty good offensive synergy with Latios as it is difficult to switch into outside of Arceus (Yeah Lugia, Lando-T, and even Cresselia all fall to standard SD Ray with Rocks up. Screw V-Create.) which also happens to be one of the more common answers to Latios as well. (ignoring rain Ferro of course) Air Lock will let us pick Ghostceus as we don't need Tina to stop the dreaded weather cleaners netting us two solid partners with good synergy at one time.
With that said...
Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Trait: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- V-create
- Swords Dance
- ExtremeSpeed
I opted for SD over the Mixed Attacker as I felt the ability to clean was more important than extra wall breaking when we already have Latios. If you guys have any cool minor set changes I'm open to edit them.
I'm just bashing our current core which isn't really that effective at the moment and seeing as how we're trying to be "innovative" instead of doing your typical hazards/spinblocker/kyogrecheck/support/revengekiller/setupsweeper aka deo-s/giratina-o/latios/terrakion that makes us just like every other HO team in existence . Also your knowledge of the damage formula is very very off. Stats matter so much more than base power.Just picking on you cause your post was right after mine and sums up the way of thinking that I want to generally address.
First, SD is not more offensive than CM (offensive here meaning more raw power) regardless of the +2 boost. For those who aren't aware +2 = *2 attack stat while +1 = *1.5 attack stat. Since the damage formula just basically multiplies/divides all of its numbers you can apply these boosts to the attack itself to help get a clearer comparison. In which case, Shadow Claw (70 BP) when doubled only hits a meer 140 BP while Judgment (100 BP) when multiplied by 1.5 hits a superior 150 BP. Add this with the fact that CM Ghostceus has access to Recover for flexibility and longevity (as well as nabbing more boosts) and the fact that CM boosts the SpDef stat as well allowing it to dodge revenge kills and muscle past tanks, CM Ghostceus becomes, clearly, the stronger choice. The only advantage SD has is hitting on the physical spectrum which is generally better as the walls are weaker and there are more powerful partners, too bad SD Ghostceus is such horrible Spikes fodder for Skarm and Forry.
Secondly, Shadow Force just sucks especially when you want to use it as your main attack. This is the best way to give your opponent free turns and allow them to easily maneuver around your sweeper. (not to mention it has only 8 PP in a pressure heavy tier) You may be thinking luring out ghost resits is good for Terrakion, however you have to remember you can't do anything during your charge turn (unlike your opponent) so you won't be able to bring in Terrakion until the Ghost resist is already there. (which is useless as you are trying to sweep with your gained momentum not hand it over and try to revenge kill)
Anyways, as far as the choice between having a Spin Blocker or not having one it is hard to say for certain at this moment as we only have three members (two of which are support mons that should have limited use in an actual game) so we'll want to wait until we get our core put together. This is really important as it sets the foundation for our team and clears up later picks.
(I'm not a fan of obnoxious bolding but I know a lot of posts are tl;dr and I want to make sure you guys get the important bits when you skim)
Speaking of which...
because it's untrue and you know it. If you want to make the team more innovative, go ahead and give a suggestion as to how we should do so. Whining isn't going to solve the problem, innovative thinking will.If you really wanted to make an HO team then I suggest just waiting a week or two for reshtest to post his that's extremely similar to our current team and from the looks of it may very well be the skeletal frame of this team.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have a Ghost-resist yet? Terrakion doesn't resist Ghost, if I'm not mistaken. Lastly, what do you want in an "innovative" team? Can you give me a specific example rather than "not what you guys are running" which is basically what you are saying. Would you rather us run Arceus-Dragon or some other obscure Pokemon?I'm just bashing our current core which isn't really that effective at the moment and seeing as how we're trying to be "innovative" instead of doing your typical hazards/spinblocker/kyogrecheck/support/revengekiller/setupsweeper aka deo-s/giratina-o/latios/terrakion that makes us just like every other HO team in existence . Also your knowledge of the damage formula is very very off. Stats matter so much more than base power.
If you really wanted to make an HO team then I suggest just waiting a week or two for reshtest to post his that's extremely similar to our current team and from the looks of it may very well be the skeletal frame of this team.
Some fun calc's
252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Force vs 252HP/252Def Levitate Giratina (Neutral): 152% - 179% (768 - 906 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Force vs 4HP/0Def Terrakion (Neutral): 164% - 193% (532 - 627 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
needless to say latios will get ohko'd as well. Shadow force being gimmicky? Sure that might be true but you cannot deny that it absolutely wrecks our team. We have no normal type to take the hit, our only resist gets ohko'd. SD ghostceus with shadow force is most definitely a problem.
To quote the opening postOk look Haruno: I don't want to be rude but you have crossed the line. Obviously we don't want to make a standard HO team. It's just that the way the voting ended up happening, we ended up with what we have now which, yes, resembles the basis of one. Quit saying stuff like
because it's untrue and you know it. If you want to make the team more innovative, go ahead and give a suggestion as to how we should do so. Whining isn't going to solve the problem, innovative thinking will.
Also, just putting it out there that stats and base power have equal weight in damage calculation. Assuming everything else is constant, damage will be directly proportional to the product of the offensive stat and the base power of the attack. See the 5th Gen damage formula article if you're skeptical.
Now, back on topic. We do have the problem of Arceus-Ghost, both CM and SD. They both have the ability to sweep our team as of right now, but that's why we have 3 more slots. Now, I did some thinking and I'm pretty sure that we can't check both of them without using a weather inducer or hazard setter (unless we use two slots) so I figure we might actually need to to something crazy.
We already have Stealth Rock and Spikes covered by Deoxys-S, but there's the dark horse hazard which is Toxic Spikes. And what lays Toxic Spikes and checks Arceus-Ghost? Ding ding, Forretress. As weird and redundant as it might sound, running a Forretress with something like Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Toxic, and Volt Switch/Gyro Ball/Pain Split (filler) could be our ticket out of here. It provides a bulky steel (probably necessary for taking all of the outrages aimed at Latios) and gives us a check to Arceus-Ghost, another way around Extremekiller, and a spinner as well. Just a thought, comments?
Deoxys-s is the most common set.The point of CCAT is to create a team that is both competitive and innovative, bringing something rather fresh into the metagame that is not used much.
Honestly, Haruno, I just read through the entire CCAT, and the only thing you suggested was Dual Screens Arceus... (your very first post in here) If we're being so un-innovative, why don't you suggest a viable set that isn't "common"? Over the course of the CCAT, all you've done is point out where people have messed up in reasoning, or at flaws in their suggestions, but you yourself basically haven't posted any of your own suggestions. Furthermore, if you truly think that this CCAT is deviating so far off course, why didn't you say so AND suggest something (either a Pokemon or a playstyle) that would remedy this? We could use the activity here, and when we were voting on Terrakion and Deoxys-S, me and akuto were chatting about how we needed more posts/submissions. That would have been a prime time to help us out, but you didn't. And honestly, we can be innovative in our team style (weatherless) and our remaining mons. But this is not the time to nitpick at our already established team.Deoxys-s is the most common set.
Latios is again one of if not the most common set.
Terrakion is also the most common set.
If by not used much you mean the most common set then yes I say the CCAT is very successful so far. Giratina-o is almost certainly going to be our spinblocker seeing as how the voting's going and it's also our much needed answer to weather sweepers (using the ever fragile and sr weak ray as our answer to weather sweepers is a terrible idea).
We've already discussed darkrai and how it doesn't help our sd ghostceus weakness which some claim to have gotten more common now. Now what do we do? Bring in forretress/ferro? Sure that's a good idea but we're just heading further and further from our original goal which you seem to have lost sight of.
@blitzle I'm defining innovative as something somewhat unique and not the absolute most used set.
Regardless of whether we build a team that can be considered "innovative", the inherent drive of this project (as well as that of the website of Smogon) is to have fun. We're trying to make this innovative, and if you can provide me with a detailed explanation of how we should do this project and succeed in innovating by all means go ahead. This is a learning experience, and if we fail then we've still learned something: Offensive Weatherless in Ubers is doomed to cookie-cutter syndrome. We all (well, I can't speak for all of us but I know that this is true for me) are aware of the fact that picking Deoxys-S isn't terribly innovative in any regard, but if it's necessary for the team to succeed then we'll take it. Bad innovation is just as counterproductive to our concept as good stereotype, and I think that everyone who has put time into this project would rather get something that they can at least battle with out of it.
uhh, what line has he crossed? also, you mentioned in the post that "we can't check ghostceus without a weather inducer or hazard setter", and then suggested forry, which unfortunately kills momentum and fails to check both ghostceus as well as skarm can, which stacks with deoxys-s, which apparently can't be removed. ding ding! this team diedOk look Haruno: I don't want to be rude but you have crossed the line. Obviously we don't want to make a standard HO team. It's just that the way the voting ended up happening, we ended up with what we have now which, yes, resembles the basis of one. Quit saying stuff like
because it's untrue and you know it. If you want to make the team more innovative, go ahead and give a suggestion as to how we should do so. Whining isn't going to solve the problem, innovative thinking will.
Also, just putting it out there that stats and base power have equal weight in damage calculation. Assuming everything else is constant, damage will be directly proportional to the product of the offensive stat and the base power of the attack. See the 5th Gen damage formula article if you're skeptical.
Now, back on topic. We do have the problem of Arceus-Ghost, both CM and SD. They both have the ability to sweep our team as of right now, but that's why we have 3 more slots. Now, I did some thinking and I'm pretty sure that we can't check both of them without using a weather inducer or hazard setter (unless we use two slots) so I figure we might actually need to to something crazy.
We already have Stealth Rock and Spikes covered by Deoxys-S, but there's the dark horse hazard which is Toxic Spikes. And what lays Toxic Spikes and checks Arceus-Ghost? Ding ding, Forretress. As weird and redundant as it might sound, running a Forretress with something like Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Toxic, and Volt Switch/Gyro Ball/Pain Split (filler) could be our ticket out of here. It provides a bulky steel (probably necessary for taking all of the outrages aimed at Latios) and gives us a check to Arceus-Ghost, another way around Extremekiller, and a spinner as well. Just a thought, comments?
I thought we agreed SD ghostceus uses adamant. hence the calc should be:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have a Ghost-resist yet? Terrakion doesn't resist Ghost, if I'm not mistaken. Lastly, what do you want in an "innovative" team? Can you give me a specific example rather than "not what you guys are running" which is basically what you are saying. Would you rather us run Arceus-Dragon or some other obscure Pokemon?
Lastly, I'm gonna back up Melee Mewtwo here, and I think they are right.
For instance, look at this:
+1 252 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment (Ghost) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 277-327 (81.23 - 95.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 259-306 (75.95 - 89.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
The custom had no investment whatsoever and had neutral nature, basically just as a punching bag. This supports what Melee Mewtwo said before, as a +2 Shadow Claw is slightly weaker than a +1 Judgment.
Lastly, I just realized I got ninja'd by jackm, but then could a Tentacruel work instead? Its typing isn't as good, but access to the obnoxious Rain Dish + Black Sludge + Protect makes it obnoxious to take down. This helps us counter weather a little bit better, but this depends on the opponent having rain, similar to Forretress, but to a lesser extent in Forretress' case.
Edit: oh oh! Also, if we can accept a bulky steel on this team, then would Ferrothorn with Toxic work, or are we using Toxic Spikes only? Because I can sort of see a Kingdra weakness in Rain, and Ferrothorn basically completely shuts it down.
lol we cant use sdef kyogre just nitpicking (yeah I know you're not suggesting just saying)I'm currently running a HO team with the 3 mons you guys already have + LO Darkrai, CM Ghostceus and SpDef Kyogre w/ roar to relative success. I really think LO Darkrai would be useful for you guys since it works really well with Latios. They pretty much take out each others threats with the exception of Genesect and /maybe/ scarf Terrakion.
Regardless you most definitely need a CM Ghostceus check. It's not one of those mons you can just play around. It's going to sweep you, so consider Darkrai.
and by consider I mean use
no one runs modest on ghostceus, plus I also mentioned the fact that ubers are physically frailer in general, plus bulk up users don't exist, while cm users such as mewtwo have a higher sdef than def after the boostI'd rather not have to revote, and I think we're making a bit too big of a deal out of Arceus-Ghost. Though we have a bit of a Ghost weakness as of the moment, we can just run a check instead of a hard counter I think? I think Darkrai still works. It can put Arceus-Ghost to sleep and then hit it with Dark Pulse.
also, @lousy, if we run Adamant on SD, obviously we can do the same (Modest) on the CM. it's the same bulk. the general power output from CM is still larger.
What can skarm do to "check" ghostceus anyway? Whirlwind him out. If skarm comes in on cm ghostceus he has the potential to be carrying a super effective hit which means after sr your done. I think forry or ferro can do alot more in the ubers tier than skarm anyway. And i already explained ghostceus checks in my other post. And lo darkrai i just dont like and gave reasons why its a VERY VERY BAD IDEA! Jurassic park referance!uhh, what line has he crossed? also, you mentioned in the post that "we can't check ghostceus without a weather inducer or hazard setter", and then suggested forry, which unfortunately kills momentum and fails to check both ghostceus as well as skarm can, which stacks with deoxys-s, which apparently can't be removed. ding ding! this team died
I thought we agreed SD ghostceus uses adamant. hence the calc should be:
100*1.5=150
70*2*1.1=154
154>150
also if you didn't realise, majority of ubers have higher SDef than Def, so we are hitting their weaker side, effectively increasing the overall power of ghostceus. the only pokemon in ubers that have higher defense than SDef are zekrom, groudon and dialga, all of which lack reliable recovery except BU Dialga. on the special side, we have SDef kyogre which has resttalk and Ho-oh which has roost. these are the special behomoths. chansey and blissey deserve a mention too.
lastly, if ferrothorn can be accepted, there's no reason why skarm cannot. refer to reply to jackm.
EDIT: yeah I mentioned its rolestacking
Skarmory getting hit be a super effective hit isn't exactly common on either of ghostceus' sweeping setsWhat can skarm do to "check" ghostceus anyway? Whirlwind him out. If skarm comes in on cm ghostceus he has the potential to be carrying a super effective hit which means after sr your done. I think forry or ferro can do alot more in the ubers tier than skarm anyway. And i already explained ghostceus checks in my other post. And lo darkrai i just dont like and gave reasons why its a VERY VERY BAD IDEA! Jurassic park referance!
What? Skarm takes 60% from a 120bp + stab + spooky plate + sd boost + 120 base attack? You make that sound unimpressive. And whirlwind definitely solves problems. It A. Removes the boosts that an arceus accumulated, B. racks up hazard damage and C. Forces your opponent into a mon that they more likely than not wouldnt like going against skarmory. That is huge especially considering skarmory isn't a check but rather a counter to all sd variants of arceus. Yes a counter meaning it can comfortably come in on any of arceus attacks and then proceed to phaze/roosting off the damage.I see what u are saying. But idk if its just me but back when i still had wifi ubers 2k i ran all sd arceus verients "still do" as mixed bulky with fire blast. And skarm can only whirlwind. Which doesnt really solve any problems and*however ur thought of what a check is" not really a check. Just a few hours ago i ran into a skarm. I had an sd up with ghostceus and hit shadow force for 60% none crit. Cant run dmg calcs due to phone but if i get winded into a setup sweeper i could easily play around u. So anywaysi can make suggestion for a steel type that i think can work alot as mid game sweeper
skarmory carries toxic...?
also just to say most competent players carry a sleep absorber lol, so idk. I want to suggest my dual-status darkrai, but 'plagiarism' issues and I'm also too lazy to quote the post
you arn't making mich sense to me with that. and skarm really can't afford to lose a move in its set to carry t[/QUOTE]uote the post[/QUOTE] oxic. and blitz I'm starting to think were making an ou team now XD anyways Sdf rachi is not a good idea in ubers. the popular ground type moves in ubers especially sand teams, sun teams too. this means running rachi is a big risk. And +2 ghostceus shadow force will do 486 - 574 120.3% - 142.1% so wouldn't really help the situatuon.also akuto, if u had taken a look at skarmory's movepool you would have discovered a move called toxic. (and roost)
252Atk Spooky Plate +2 Multitype Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Force vs 252HP/4Def Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+Def): 49% - 58% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
Just passing through, I tend to follow these CCAT, but Shadow Force /does/ break through Protect.@akuto, having protect on Jirachi means that Shadow Force won't do anything, and Shadow Force means that they will waste a turn taking Toxic damage. Also, Ground type moves are easily absorbed by Latios, and... there aren't many notable Ground-type move users anyways (Groudon is dealt with by Latios).
For instance, let's take this example against SD Arceus-Ghost.
We switch in as they SD with Jirachi.
They use Shadow Force while we use Wish.
We use Protect while they use Shadow Force.
Repeat. Also, SD Arceus-Ghost ISN'T THAT COMMON, and chances are, they are running Shadow Claw, which we can Toxic stall/ParaFlinch to death.
Bulbapedia said:It will hit the target even if it has used Protect or Detect and lifts the effects of Protect or Detect for the remainder of the turn.