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Ubers CCAT 3 - Skies are Clear

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by jackm, Feb 12, 2013.

?

What Pokemon should we base our team around?

Poll closed Feb 17, 2013.
  1. Dual Screens Arceus

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Ludicolo

    6.7%
  3. Power Herb Kyurem-B

    8.3%
  4. Substitute Darkai

    1.7%
  5. Smash recipient Dialga

    18.3%
  6. CM Arceus-Dragon

    16.7%
  7. SubSeed Shaymin-S

    6.7%
  8. SD Arceus-Ground

    5.0%
  9. LO Kyurem-B

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. CM Lugia

    5.0%
  11. Latios

    3.3%
  12. BU Dialga

    10.0%
  13. CM Arceus-Fighting

    3.3%
  14. Scarf Rayquaza

    1.7%
  15. Scarf Salamence

    5.0%
  16. SubCM Giratina-O

    8.3%
  1. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    I'm assuming he's talking about Snorlax, akuto?
    But uh... anyways, let's get a move on guys! Nothing's happened for a while now!

    So far we've discussed/mentioned:

    -Arceus-Ghost
    -Wobbuffet
    -Arceus-Water
    -Arceus-Steel
    -Palkia
    -Arceus-Normal
    -Darkrai
    -Giratina-O
    -SD Rayquaza
    -Sableye
    -Snorlax

    Any last thoughts? Or I guess we can just wait for jackm to begin the vote.

    SD RAYQUAZA FTW!
    No subliminal messaging here!

    However, Giratina-O also has a lot of merit, especially as it can defeat Deoxys-A, something I've seen on the ladder a LOT recently (or maybe it has just been an extra big pain in the butt after I changed up my team a little bit.)
  2. jackm

    jackm

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    I'm starting the vote tomorrow. Gotta go to bed today, sorry guys. I've been busy.
  3. akuto

    akuto

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    I don't remember wobbuffet?

    And being gone for 3 days i forget stuff on snorlax XD

    And doing testing i noticed we are pretty weak no Gira-O so i would like to suggest maybe Cm Darkceus?

    It would be a somewhat check to our ghostceus problems resisting stab and having the chance of the super effective fighting move missing in which we can OHKO back with our stab at +1. It does make us a little weaker to blazekin though.
  4. trickroom

    trickroom
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    I don't know about the rest but Snorlax is an awful pokemon to use in Ubers. Thick Fat? Reshiram has Turbo Blaze sorry, and Kyurem-W still 3HKOes you with Specs Ice Beam because Thick Fat won't work.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 310-366 (59.16 - 69.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 211-249 (40.26 - 47.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 262-309 (50 - 58.96%) -- 74.22% chance to 2HKO

    Focus Blast isn't even needed. The funny thing is I tried Snorlax in Ubers, and it blows. Don't even try it on the CCAT team.

    Hail teams are extremely rare in Ubers, and I had only seen a great one made by user tito in DPP. Most of the time Hail teams are mauled by hazards, and Snorlax won't help you in any way, it's slow, not strong, sub-par typing, no reliable recovery and is just setup bait for most things.

    The CCAT team at the moment is still destroyed by Ghost Arceus, yeah you paralyze it with Dialga and that's about it. You need some extreme luck to destroy it, so the next member has to be able to at least check it. Sableye isn't needed in my opinion, Scarf Terrakion is already there to beat SD Arceus. Darkrai seems to be the most logical member because it checks Ghost Arceus and gives the team free switch ins with Dark Void.

    Blaziken can't really setup on anyone, and while it threatens to OHKO Dialga, it cannot get free setups unless you are dumb enough to let it. Deoxys-S has Taunt so you can use it if you can't let it setup. Latios checks it.
  5. jackm

    jackm

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    Well, it's time for the vote. As always, Post your vote in bold. The ballot goes as follows:

    Subshuffler Giratina-O
    Defensive Arceus-Water
    SD Rayquaza
    Sucker Punch Darkrai
    SubNP Darkrai
    CM Arceus-Steel
    Giratina-O (WOW+DM)
    CB Rayquaza

    I've edited out a few sets that I think warranted exclusion or were simply redundant. In addition, I added SubNP Darkrai to the ballot, as I think it is many person's optimal choice despite never actually being submitted.

    Cheers! Let's see this through!

    Vote closes in 48 hours.
  6. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    SD Rayquaza
    Putting stuff in bold on an iPod is impossible. Anyways, I really do think we need a solid check to weather sweepers, and powerful priority. Furthermore, we get a win condition and we hit Arceus extremely hard with boosted Outrage/Dragon Claw (sorry I can't view the set at the moment). If we do make edits later I would really like I weigh the benefits of DD and SD, but the current set looks good to me. DD Rayquaza does massacre Arceus with Outrage though. Lastly, we do need a better Arceus-Ghost check, so Darkrai will probably be our next pick, if not this pick. If anyone can provide a good argument as to why we should pick Darkrai first, I'm completely open as it's a really close second choice for me. It's just that the aforementioned Genesect and Blaziken will do a number on our team. (Scarf Genesect will still easily beat Rayquaza but it won't do so by spamming U-Turn and will be locked onto Ice Beam which we can take advantage of.) Arceus-Steel sets up on Genesect though.
  7. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    SubNP Darkrai

    Dialga checks Genesect ~0-0~
  8. Sweep

    Sweep
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    Sub NP Darkrai

    I feel Trickroom is right. Even though Darkrai makes up even weaker to Kingdra than we already are, we desperately need a Ghostceus check. Darkrai is a good pokemon in general and can hurt stall teams.

    I wish we could somehow add Darkrai, Rayquaza, and Ghostceus to this team. A shame we only have two slots left. If we leave out Rayquaza, Kingdra and other weather sweepers will leave a mark. If we leave out Ghostceus or a Giratina forme, we forego a spinblocker on a team with Deoxys-S. Finally, if we leave out Darkrai then CM Ghostceus becomes a monster. Regardless, not every team is perfect and Defensive Dialga can help out against a variety of threats.
  9. lousy918

    lousy918

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    ghostceus does not spinblock +2 excadrill and kabutops, and they can SD as you switch to spinblock. I think just adding rayquaza or gira-o is fine.
    SubNP Darkrai
    edit: I don't really like subnp though, I prefer butterfree darkrai
  10. jackm

    jackm

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    SubNP Darkrai

    Dialga checks Kingdra better than Ray... wat r u doing
  11. Donkey

    Donkey

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    opened thread
    saw snorlax
    closed thread
  12. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    Sub NP darkrai seems like the best choice to me for checking CM (ghost)arceus


    ... and why was snorlax considered? o_0
  13. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Snorlax was brought up but I don't think any of us really considered it for a team slot, as it's pretty awful in Ubers. It was more of a spur-of-the-moment thought perhaps to garner more conversation? Anyways, it looks like Darkrai's got this.
  14. akuto

    akuto

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    SD QUAZA. The reason for subnp darkrai being a no no is u only have 1 attack. I don't really agree with darkrai for it makes us weaker to weather scarfers like reshiram or swift swimmers like kubutops or the big threats to us like blazekin, genesect, or kingdra. I think alot of teams these days run things these days just to counter darkrai. Sd quaza or just quaza in general can fix our problems.
  15. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    SubNP Rai I've been following this thread with some interest, hope I can contribute something along the line. I'd like to put both Quaza and Darkrai, but Rai seems superior in this slot.
  16. akuto

    akuto

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    Looks like rai has got this
  17. IAmAnHero

    IAmAnHero

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    Sub Np Darkrai because I like him.
  18. akuto

    akuto

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  19. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    akuto, I'm assuming IAmAnHero wrote that because all of the reasoning for choosing one Pokemon or another has already been given. No need to repeat what's already been said (probably multiple times) would be the philosophy here I think.

    Also, picking Darkrai does open us up to scarf Dragons. I'd really like to bring up Arceus-Steel later because with all the frail team members we're picking, we will need a more resilient Steel-type. Not saying Dialga is bad, but we're putting a LOT of pressure on him. Needing to check Dragons-types, needing to semi-check Arceus-Ghost, needing to phaze out set-up sweepers, needing to check weather sweepers, etc. is A LOT and I don't think he can handle it by himself, which is why I recommend Arceus-Steel > Dialga.

    Also, although a spinblocker in Giratina-O would be nice for our next pick, it just exacerbates our Dragon weakness, and Giratina-O isn't the most offensively oriented Pokemon out there. (Just making a pre-emptive move for our next pick.)
  20. jackm

    jackm

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    Well, votes are closed! SubNP Darkrai has taken it; the OP will be updated. And this, of course, means that we are proceeding into the final phase of our teammate selection. This teammate will ideally fill holes in our team that need filling, accomplish proactive goals that require accomplishment, and tie our team together. Before we start considering choices, I just want to make one thing very clear in everyone's mind: do NOT fixate on our last team member being an Arceus form. Conversely, do not eliminate Arceus from your thinking on this last one. I'm feeling like Arceus-Ghost is going to be a good choice for this role, but I'm not going to submit anything until adequate discussion occurs. We're coming down the home stretch, people; LET'S DO THIS!

    Also, as a side note, now would be a good time to discuss moveset/ev tweaks for the current team members. I'll go over the protocol for that if it's necessary.
  21. akuto

    akuto

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    I think ghostceus wont do as a last team member. We still have problems that ghostceus wont solve like the weather sweepers, and scarf quaza. I was thinking maybe running kyurdm-w or maybe even iceus. It gives us extra lugia coverage and scarf whiterum can outspeed blazekin.
  22. Sweep

    Sweep
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    I feel that the last member of this team should be something that covers up as many weaknesses as possible while still posing a significant threat to the opposing team. Let's take a look at what we have so far:

    -Choice Scarf Terrakion
    -Substitute Nasty Plot Darkrai
    -All Out Attacker Latios
    -Support Dialga
    -Hazards Deoxys-S

    So far, we have a solid team that can threaten a variety of Pokemon. We match up fairly well with all hazard setters, have a good offensive check to ExtremeKiller, and now we have an answer for Calm Mind Arceus (specifically Ghostceus). I have identified a few areas of weakness though:

    1. No spinblocker. There isn't much we can do if something like Support Exca comes in on Latios after it has used Draco Meteor. Tentacruel can also find opportunities to spin. I feel that a spinblocker should be added unless we find something that makes our team so much stronger that we cannot possibly pass it up.

    Potential pokemon we can add to fix this issue: Giratina-O, Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-A, and perhaps Sableye. The latter can find itself Tentacruel set-up bait though; Substitute Darkrai hates Toxic Spikes. Giratina-O can maul Tentacruel and support Excadrill with Earthquake and Ghostceus can set up on Tentacruel lacking Toxic while beating Excadrill with a fighting move.

    2. Rain sweepers, especially Kingdra. Kabutops with Aqua Jet will be a nightmare mid-to-late game, as it can defeat Jolly Terrakion and 2HKO our entire team, and Kingdra outruns and OHKO's Darkrai, Latios, and even Scarf Terrakion! Kingdra is a pressing issue for all Weatherless teams and this one is no exception. Rayquaza does a fantastic job of revenging these threats, though it sadly cannot directly switch into them. Thunder Wave Chansey, though not recommended for a Hyper-Offense, can cripple all Swift Swimmers effectively and is light enough to avoid Kabutops' Low Kick from doing maximum damage.

    Potential Pokemon we can add to fix this issue: Rayquaza, Chansey, and to a much lesser extent Ghostceus (after SR and Spikes, 252 Special Attack Ghostceus can kill most weather sweepers). Both Giratina forms check Kabutops but don't like switching into Omastar's Ice Beam and despise Kingdra's Dragon STAB.

    3. Potentially susceptible to Bulky EKiller

    If Deoxys-S gets only one layer of hazards down, Bulkier versions of EK could pose problems:

    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (76.19 - 89.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    So a combination of Earthquake and Extremespeed will bring Terrakion to its knees, allowing EKiller to Extremespeed something else for decent damage before dying. And if Arceus is already at +2 when Terrakion comes in, it can spam Extremespeed (which 2HKO's) and hope for a critical hit, at which point our team is doomed. I would feel more comfortable with this team with extra EKiler insurance.

    Potential Pokemon we can add to fix the issue: Giratina-A, Giratina-O, Sableye, Ghostceus. Sableye checks EK very well but is a weaker Pokemon in general than the Big Three. Giratina-A is the best check from a defensive standpoint, whereas Giratina-O's Dragon Tail will take a nice chunk out of it, specially considering hazards. Both physical and special Ghostceus can take on EK adequately, with Focus Blast 2HKOing and Brick Break 3HKOing.

    I feel that Physical Ghostceus is our best bet, since we have more Special Attackers than Physical attackers at the moment. With that said, I am very eager to hear arguments in favor of the likes of Rayquaza, Giratina-O, etc.
  23. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    @sweep You forgot to mention blaziken, which absolutely steamrolls our whole team if it gets a swords dance which isn't too unlikely on a -2 latios.

    Gira-a is automatically unusable because of the fact that it "kills" momentum which everyone will try and avoid, same with sableye. So that leaves us with only offensive checks like gira-o, ghostceus and rayquaza. There are problems with each one of those though.

    Rayquaza - No spinblocker which means forry can come in on latios/dialga and just rapid spin with no worries.
    Gira-o - Has no reliable recovery and will easily be worn down though the secondary check to ekiller is nice.
    Ghostceus - Blitzlefan already convinced everyone in the CCAT that physical ghostceus is unviable and wouldn't be used after we brought it up a few pages back, which leaves us with cm variants since support ghostceus kills momentum. Using cm ghostceus means our weather sweeper problem is still there and forces us to make risky moves to play around.

    Ultimately no matter what pokemon we decide to run we still remain incredibly weak to something in one way or another. The best option would be to replace dialga but since we already voted on that we're stuck with said weaknesses.
  24. lousy918

    lousy918

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    Sweep (open)


    Tentacruel will get up only one layer of Toxic Spikes on <84 Spe Giratina-O and Giratina unless Sableye stupidly forgets Taunt or Ghostceus doesn't have a boosting move. They all check EKiller, but Sableye is unreliable coz WoW sucks, and after two switch-ins with SR on the field, it dies to CC. The two switches could be forced with phazing lol.
    imo Ghostceus is not a good idea, you mentioned bulky Excadrill. With Ghostceus, we are raped by SD, even if it doesn't carry Life Orb as everything is OHKOed at +2 and can set up on -2 Latios or wrongly choiced Terrakion.

    Haruno (open)


    Blaziken is OHKOed by -2 Psyshock.

    -2 252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 264-312 (87.41 - 103.31%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Rayquaza can come in on Forry and set up with no worries. Since Forry is spinning away hazards, it means it switched into hazards and Sturdy is broken. Rayquaza can OHKO with ease.
    Giratina-O has power and checks Mewtwo along with a horde of weather sweepers. Ghostceus does not beat any +2 weather sweeper. It is OHKOed, screw recovery lol.
  25. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu

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    Haha, I've been lurking this forum until I finally WAS ABLE TO (I never go the confirmation email) joined Smogon 4 days ago. After reading all the posts, I think we should go with Giratina-O. It can check Arceus with relative ease, and can severely damage Lati@s with Shadow Sneak. It can also spinblock, as pointed out by Sweep, which we need.

    Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 176 Atk / 248 Def / 84 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake/Hidden Power Fire

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