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Discussion in 'Ubers' started by Furai, Nov 4, 2011.
I was using Jirachi for paralysis and U-Turn into Deo-A (Wish helps other teammates as well)
I voted for Deoxys-A. If given a choice, I'd also vote for Darkai but Deoxys-A just takes the cake for me with its insanely powerful Psycho Boosts and ExtremeSpeeds. Darkai is NEVER a forgotten wonder to me anyway, it is quite common.
Also, basing a team around Deoxys-A could prove tricky since it doesnt really have any teammates (or counters). But it could still be a team where we use Deoxys-A's high powered assualts to weaken walls and sweep with another Pokemon lategame. Just throwing out ideas over here.
Wobb actually works quite well with Deo-A; Deo-A is revenged by stuff like Priority and ScarfPalk, which Wobbuffet can trap and KO (ScarfPalk not priority obv...).
C'mon guys seriously? Darkrai is a forgotten wonder? I hadn't noticed, I certainly use it on all my offensive teams in ubers. It is in no way a forgotten wonder, if anything it should be more popular than ever with it being able to outspeed and sleep any form of CM Arceus...
And Deoxys-A, I guess its a wonder as an all out attacker and not a lead. I'm not convinced about how forgotten it is, or whether its a great pokemon to build around. Sure, it has a shit ton of raw power and is quite capable of mopping the floor with many teams, but it doesn't seem too exciting to me. The team that the community builds for it will be fine, jibaku and tmon will see to that...
But c'mon... c'mon!!! Use something exciting, something new.
I voted for Thundurus, the newest uber, who has prankster and good electric typing for ubers. You know you want to see what happens when your late game mixed/swords dance quaza has tailwind blowing for it... Thats the thing about Thundurus, it has so much utility:
Substitute/hidden power ice/focus blast
Use it to lure Groudon!!! Use it to bait and then kill Darkrai!! Or Dialga! Thundurus is fun to use, and while Darkrai is also a lot of fun to use, Deoxys-A is one of the most boring pokemon, imo.
Grass Knot/Hidden Power Ice/Focus Blast/Taunt
Support Thundurus is really fun, I know I put in a ton of options with all the slashes, but I really feel like Thundurus has massive opportunities to be a support pokemon that can also threaten offensively.
My main idea here is that the pokemon currently leading the polls, Deoxys-A (too boring) and Darkrai (if you think this is a Forgotten Wonder, I have to question how much ubers you have played) are lame and that people should do something fun (like Thundurus). I know that some people will disagree with me, I've always thought of ubers as a tier that was about creativity and fun, where there were so many good pokemon that if you wanted to build a team you didn't have to bog yourself down in maximum efficiency movesets. Being surprising is awarded in ubers more than any other tier! I'm not saying its uncompetitive, or that you should only use gimmicks, but think about how mundane Darkrai and Deoxys-A are.
EDIT: I also support votes for Bulk Up Dialga (a real forgotten wonder) and leech seed Shaymin.
Thundurus doesn't get Tailwind
right to the point, Deoxys-A is indeed a fuckin monster. I see Darkrai on 7/10 teams every match, and Deoxys-A is rarely seen.
It has been decided; the majority of 39.13% of the votes had decided that our first CCAT will be around Deoxys-A!
This is our set;
Deoxys-A @ Life Orb
EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SAtk / 236 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Psycho Boost
- Shadow Ball
Other Options are:
Ice Beam>Shadow Ball: although without Shadow Ball you're walled by Psychics and Psycho Boost hits hard enough
Low Kick>Superpower: you need that base power.
Next, we have to decide our Team Style, whether it's Offense, Weather, or maybe even Stall!
It is already pretty notable that we are going to make this team Offensive, but that's the question; which Offense would it be? Feel free to suggest other team styles though!
Shadow Sneak Gira-O is probably the best check to Deoxys-A, switching in on a predicted Superpower and killing it in one turn. The other most common priority users being Arceus and Rayquaza.
The best Gira-O 'counter' is Tyranitar, provided it does not use WoW (which i have been seeing a lot more nowadays, must to my frustration); a sandstorm team may seem counter-productive with an LO 'mon, however, Deoxys-A's frailty is such that it is always taken out in a single move anyway, making it less of an issue. A possible option to consider, as Skarm (however, this pokemon obviously detracts from the 'offense' mentality) also fits well on a sand team, and can safely switch into most Extremekkiller Arceus and some Rayquaza (a lot carry fire moves and SD + ES is all but dead).
+natured 90 base scarfers also outspeed Deoxys-A, so Wobbuffet seems like an ideal team mate, it also gives Deoxys-A free times to come in when things like protect on Ferrothorn are encored.
Otherwise I would actually pair Deoxys-A with a Darkrai, or Rayquaza as sleep and + 1 Outrage will sunder the core of a lot of teams, allowing Deoxys-A to run through them.
Obviously you need SR support, a set that I know ibojangles and a few other good ubers players love is lead LO Dialga, which I think is probably the best offensive SR lead outside of Deoxys-A itself.
We're at Team Style Poppycock, not Teammates.
Thunder could work somewhere as well, if using rain.
An offensive/balanced team with some u-turners/volt switchers (jirachi, scizor and zekrom come to mind) would be nice to support deoxys with free switches. I don't think stall would work with something so frail.
I am a poor reader.
Anyway: stall is immediately out, for obvious reasons; sand could work as ttar is a good partner, as is excadrill for offensive purposes; sun is a better fit than rain, as Groudon comes in on the physically based priority of ubers and sets up SR / pHazes.
So I'm leaning in favour of three: sun (hard to make full offense as a lot of sun sweepers require rapid spin, unless one opts for chlorophyll 'mons over things like ho-oh and reshiram) / sand offense / weatherless offense
How about overall offense with a supporting bulky offensive core to back up Deoxys?
note: I do not support a sand offense idea
Things that hit very hard but can survive a strong in turn then Deoxys can come in and mop-up until the other team is out of any priority users/scarfers
I even see merit in changing Deoxys's nature to Naughty over Mild to get some more oomph on that Extremespeed.
I also am not a fan of the Sand Offense, Deoxys-A is gonna be worn down too quickly.
I'd really like Sun offense BUT, rain stall is pretty common so you would have to really think a way to get the upper hand.
Weatherless offense seems more viable imo. Rayquaza and a spinner could be good partners.
About the set, I still think pivoting around Psycho Boost/Superpower somewhat deters its effectiveness. Blobs taking the psycho boost, then switching to a phys wall/ghost and you are now with a -1 -1 -2. That's why I preferred a different set but eh, if it works for "everyone else" then no problem.
I think it's a little bit too early to discount stall as a possible playstyle. We should ideally want to play Deo-A as a lategame sweeper, or as a hit-and-run attacker as circumstance allows. Stall is very accomodating for these two styles of attacking, as it is good at keeping hazards down and keeping the opponent's hazards away, meaning Deo-A can switch in more times as necessary. A stall team also gives something to fall back on if we happen to find ourselves with, say, a -2 Atk or -4 SpA Deo-A and the opponent has a threatening sweeper ready to set up. Now, I'm not really advocating one playstyle over another at this point, I'm just putting it out there that stall is a perfectly feasible choice here and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
Too bad we can't use Deo-S to get glorious hazards in, but I digress. Deo-A was my choice after Krom anyways XD
As most people have already said, I firmly believe we should do weathered offense with either inducer, they're both badasses. By running offense, we make Deoxys's job even easier, using him as a pivotal revenge killer with ExtremeSpeed (save for those pesky Giratina's) and can sweep when things like Scarfed -insert Uber here- are all gone. I know we're not getting on to teammates yet, but many things can clear the field for it (Scarf Shaymin-S anyone?).
While Stall is without a doubt a viable playstyle in Ubers, I really don't think it would work here. Stall is already weak to EKArceus + Giratina counter, why compound our weakness to it by making the star destrolished by it?
And I really don't think Sand would work either. Every Ubers Sand team is based more around Excadrill anyways, and as said before, Deo-A's already frail enough, we don't need it dying faster with Sand.
I agree with playing a balanced style. I've been using that same set for months now, but with Ice Beam over Shadow Ball, and the one thing it does better than anything else is force switches. Hazards are a must, and with that, so is a core that can reliably switch in on Giratina-O and ExtremeSpeed-wielding Arceus.
Now I will make my case for Ice Beam. Shadow Ball doesn't really deal with "Psychics" but rather "The Psychic", as in Mewtwo. Mewtwo takes around 66% from Psycho Boost with an offensive set, but most of the time that's not necessary if we decide to use something like ScarfOgre. The other Psychic-type I can think of is Lugia, which Ice Beam hits harder. Both Giratina formes are also hit harder, but no one would keep Deo-A in on Giratina-O and not even Psycho Boost OHKOes Giratina.
As for why we should use Ice Beam, it lets us use that where we would normally need Psycho Boost. The biggest examples are Groudon, Shaymin-S sans Scarf, or something like CB Zekrom that is Outrage locked or a SubKrom caught without a Sub. Normally, we'd have to Psycho Boost and switch out, but with Ice Beam, we can simply OHKO them without lowering our Sp. Atk. and continue on sweeping. Then there's the fact that there's nothing 4x weak to Ghost, so there's nothing at all that Shadow Ball hits harder than Psycho Boost but Mewtwo, Psychic Arceus, and Lugia. Dark-types too, but you'd rather just have them switch into Psycho Boost so you don't waste 10% health hitting them with an NVE attack.
If Mewtwo turns out to be a large threat to the team in general, then Shadow Ball would be superior, but otherwise I say go with Ice Beam.
Hazard spamming HO - this is because most of Deoxys-A's checks are only checks at like >100% health (assuming SR and Spikes are up), and by running similar pokemon to Deo-A (read: Mewtwo), Deo-A will have an easy time sweeping.
Most stall sweepers usually have at least a bit of bulk or some useful resistances like Mewtwo, Blaziken, Shaymin-S, or Darkrai. Deoxys-A is OHKOed six times over by a light breeze, so I have to agree that stall won't work well. Deoxys-A also isn't so much a sweeper as it is a nuke because it can't take a hit to keep sweeping and lacks a reliable sweeping move - it's more of a "hit really freaking hard and run" type of Pokemon.
The best support we can give Deoxys-A is hazards to help it kill things - if it can't take a hit, we need to make the most of its ability to hit like a nuclear train. Therefore, we should go with a hazardstacking bulky offensive/balanced team IMO. I don't want to go heavy offensive because it compounds Deoxys-A's weaknesses to priority and faster Pokemon, and relying on Wobbuffet to beat every Scarfer is something I don't exactly enjoy doing and is shaky at best.
We should also shy away from Dual Screens because there's not much you can do to protect 50/20/20 defenses. This also makes Baton Passing Deoxys-A things out of the question because it will not be able to take any kind of hit, so a simple bulky offense team is probably the best way to go.
As for weather, it's really influenced by what specific teammates Deoxys-A will have because it doesn't care too much about weather alignment, so we should think about that later and focus on supporting Deoxys-A first and foremost. The only restriction I would place is no Sand or Hail, as others have said, because LO + hazards + passive weather damage will kill off our star player way too fast for it to be effective.
Hawkstar makes a great case about Ice Beam and I agree with everything he said, but according to usage stats Mewtwo is used more than Zekrom and Lugia (still 2HKOed by Shadow Ball) combined. The biggest prop is being able to hit Groudon with no drawbacks, but no sane Groudon is staying in on Deoxys-A, and you'll likely hit the switch in for big damage with Psycho Boost. Being able to hit the more common threat makes Shadow Ball the preferable option imo, but like you said, if Mewtwo is dealt with by the rest of the team then Ice Beam is the more viable choice.
I have to jump on the balanced/bulky offense bandwagon here since it really is the best environment for Deoxys-A. The team will generally have enough bulk to fall back on once Deoxys-A gets those nasty stat drops and will still have enough firepower to run through the other team once Deoxys-A opens up holes in them.
Deoxys-A does allow stall to revenge kill Life Orb Shaymin-S, Darkrai and unboosted Mewtwo. Shadow Ball still does massive damage to +1 Mewtwo. Psycho Boost OHKOes Arceus after Stealth Rock, it also owns the rare Poison Arceus. Superpower smacks Dark and Steel Arceus real hard but max Attack is needed to get the OHKO.
Stall allows Deoxys-A to switch more often and abuse Toxic Spikes to wear down foes such as Kyogre which Deoxys-A normally could not OHKO. After using Psycho Boost, it allows things like Ghost Arceus to setup on Deoxys-A which will be fatal to an offensive team since CM Ghost Arceus has no offensive counters. Stall has Chansey or Blissey, maybe defensive Ho-Oh as another check to it. Calm Skarmory beats CM Ghost Arceus with Toxic + Taunt, assuming no Fire-type attack.
Many people think that Giratina-O bashes stall, but it really depends on the team. Dialga owns Giratina-O and forces it out instead of being phazed. Skarmory walls Giratina-O easily outside of Thunder. Both share good synergy with Deoxys-A.
I would like to see Deoxys-A on stall - I don't know how viable that is, but not only is it aesthetically pleasing (it meshes the epitome of offense with a completely foreign playstyle), it's something unexpected. If I'm not mistaken stall often runs with some Scarfed revenge killers, and since Deoxys-A is fast enough to act as a pseudo revenge killer (especially if it has Extremespeed), it might be able to fit in.
That said, Ubers stall teams seem very different from the stall teams that I'm familiar with, so ...
The thing that gets me about using stall is that Deoxys-A offers zero defensive synergy to a team style meant to switch and defend from attacks. Most other revenge killers are chosen because they provide offensive presence while providing some sort of defensive synergy, such as ScarfOgre's rain for Fire-types, Palkia's Water and Fire quad resistances, or Zekrom's ability to check most CM sweepers and nice resistances.
Toxic Spikes also doesn't help Deoxys-A much as its meant to blow crap up rather than sit back and stall, so it appreciates the quick damage of Spikes and SR more considering how it actually doesn't need TOO many layers because its working with such enormous offensive stats.
Again, Deoxys-A isn't a sweeper, its a hole-puncher. I feel it would be better suited on a bulky offensive team, where there is still somewhat solid defensive ability while being able to really take advantage of Deoxys-A's ability to punch holes in the opponent's everything.
i agree that stall will not work. while tobes mentitioned qualities for deo-a in stall, the biggest problem about deo-a is its inability to come in. you literlaly must wait for something to die before getting deo-a in (which in a stall team is probably not supposed to happen).
deo-a is a real wall breaker more than sweeper, especially when two of its main moves lower the attacking stat said move is using.
it fits really well on balance and hell even ho can use it. while priority is an issue, a steel type can easily take the priority, as if the opponent is using normal arceus or gira-o, deo-a has really no buisness staying in.
also hazard support is really useful in getting kos, with just stealth rock deo-a can kill all arceus with lo psychoboost, always OHKO lead lo dialga, and kill subroost lugia with thunder (if kyogre is on the team thunder is infinitely better than shadowball imo)
lastly i propose the spread gets changed to 72 atk / 252 spa / 184 spe naive (spe+, spdef-). this lets deo-a outspeed modest scarf base 90s (anything faster is normally nonexistant or cannot be outspeed even with the current spread). the 72 attack evs allow deo-a superpower to nearly always OHKO 0 hp dialga, while giving a nice boost to its extremespeed.
Actually since we all want to see stall or bulky offense why not build a semistall team around Deoxys-a revolving around cleaning up with it after phazing and residual damage has weakened a majority of the enemy team? Through the use of toxic and well prediction the team can thwart most of its switch-ins with hazard and residual damage to the point where pokemon like Giratina-o will find it difficult to switch in without being OHKOed by a possibly fired Psycho Boost or Shadow Ball. The team has a massive amount of bulk to fall back on to compensate for Deoxys-a's less then desirable defenses.
We could add additional support with something like a Forretress or Scizor with a scouting move to give it free switch-ins, to remove those nasty stat drops, and to transfer momentum which is something Deoxys-a loves. I honestly think Deoxys-a excels more at cleaning then Wall Breaking, it just needs much more support then the standard sweeper.