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Ubers SpikeStacking

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by bojangles, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
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    Ubers SpikeStacking

    [​IMG]
    Art by Bummer

    Spike-stacking is the newest menace to hit the Ubers scene. DPP Ubers players will (fondly?) remember the days when offense was still king, and if you wanted to build a stall team, your stall would almost invariably built off the blueprint Groudon / Blissey / Forretress / Giratina(-O). However, much has changed this generation. Probably the biggest single shift, however, has been the introduction of Ferrothorn, that Grass / Steel thorn thing that some of us love and a lot of us hate. Ferrothorn has almost slowed down the game single-handedly. Actually, that part is a bit of a lie. A lot of Ferrothorn’s utility comes because of its dream-like synergy that is had with Kyogre, the reigning king of Ubers (psh 1337 Dialga). Because Ferrothorn and Kyogre cover each other’s weaknesses so well (I’m not going to get into it here because literally pages have been written about it), they have become the flavor of the month, or really generation, and are seeing a lot of rise in play. While Ubers has not totally become a stall metagame, the pace of play has slowed down dramatically, from a hyper offense speed zone where every team packs a Scarfer and a quick lead to a metagame where bulky Pokemon and entry hazards reign supreme.

    This thread is going to take a look into not only how to optimize your use of the SpikeStacking archetype, but also how to beat it!

    First:

    The Spike Stackers

    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Careful | 252 HP / 48 Atk / 208 SpD
    ~ Spikes
    ~ Power Whip
    ~ Leech Seed
    ~ Protect

    This is my Ferrothorn set up of choice. Some people like to run Sassy for Gyro Ball but in my opinion Power Whip is the much more useful choice. It allows Ferrothorn to hit the big weather producing ubers, Kyogre and Groudon, for much more damage than it could ever hope to with Gyro Ball, as well as hitting Palkia, a Pokemon for whom it is a great counter if Palkia lacks Fire Blast, for much better damage. Power Whip will still deal a lot of damage to Darkrai and Mewtwo so all is not lost; the only Pokemon you really miss out on are Shaymin-S, who is super rare nowadays, and Rayquaza, who you should be only staying in to Leech Seed if anything before switching out since Fire Blast / Overheat will just roast you. Leech Seed and Protect are really important in my opinion because they just add so much to Ferrothorn’s longevity. The EVs are designed so that Power Whip can break a Dark Arceus’s Substitutes, who is a bane to stall-like teams. If you’re not worried though you can just shift those EVs to Special Defense or Defense. Spikes is sort of obvious. I would avoid running Stealth Rock on Ferrothorn since there are just so many other Pokemon who can do it just as well. Plus, Spikes + Leech Seed + Stealth Rock is illegal.

    Run Kyogre with this. Just do it.

    [​IMG]
    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Calm | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    ~ Spikes
    ~ Toxic Spikes
    ~ Rapid Spin
    ~ Volt Switch

    Forretress was Ferrothorn before it became cool. They share a lot of factors, even down to a 4x Fire-type weakness that is nicely mitigated when paired with Kyogre. There’s a whole thread on the differences between these two so I won’t linger here except to say that you trade off Ferrothorn’s survivability with better resistances and Leech Seed for Forretress’s Rapid Spinning abilities. In addition, you also get access to not only Spikes, but also Toxic Spikes, which will aid your stalling adventure. The last move is a tricky toss-up, as Volt Switch will let you keep momentum and escape from the rare Wobbuffet, while Toxic will let you cripple the inevitable Giratina(-O) or Ghost Arceus switch in. A nifty thing about Forretress is, with the prevalence of Kyogre, many people are forgoing running Hidden Power Fire on their Giratina-O, so Forretress can set up entry hazards on Giratina-O!

    [​IMG]
    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    RAIN DISH
    Calm | 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
    ~ Toxic Spikes
    ~ Rapid Spin
    ~ Scald
    ~ Protect

    In a lot of ways, Tentacruel is like the horribly disfigured bastard child of Ferrothorn and Forretress. In return for giving up Spikes, you get to keep Toxic Spikes, extra recovery in Rain Dish, Rapid Spin, and Protect. It’s important to note, however, you do lose an all-important Steel typing and a lot of physical defense. Also, don’t use Tentacruel unless you’re pretty sure you can take advantage of Rain Dish, since that’s one of its main selling points. Tentacruel also has access to one of the best moves in the game in Scald, which, aside from being boosted twice due to STAB and rain, can augment Tentacruel’s Defense by burning. Just be careful to not go overboard, or else your Toxic Spikes will have to compete with some burns! Protect is on here for more recovery since Rest is unreliable and Tentacruel has no Recover equivalent. However, DO NOT use it as a crutch, as a good Ubers player will see a Protect coming a mile away and will use that free turn to his or her advantage.

    [​IMG]
    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Careful | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    ~ Spikes
    ~ Roost
    ~ Taunt
    ~ Whirlwind

    Skarmory is sort of the odd child here since its usage is not nearly as high as the other Spikers here, usually for good reason. It doesn’t have quite as good synergy with Kyogre as Ferrothorn, doesn’t have Rapid Spin like Forretress or Tentacruel, and doesn’t have very good Special Defense. However, it does have a few niches. First of all, it’s probably the closest thing there is to an Extreme Killer Arceus counter. Skarmory will laugh at even +2 ExtremeSpeed, not to mention Shadow Claw or (lol) Earthquake. Even Overheat will not be good enough to beat Skarmory in the rain, as it can Roost-stall with the drops. It can then Whirlwind Arceus right out. This brings me to my next point: Skarmory can phaze. Keeping your opponent switching is the crux of the SpikeStacking strategy and will weaken your opponent’s Pokemon rather quickly if they are not carrying recovery moves. The final little niche Skarmory has is with Taunt, as it can prevent status moves or other entry hazards from going up. Note, however, that Rapid Spin is an attacking move…

    The SpinBlockers

    [​IMG]
    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Naughty | 248 Atk / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
    ~ Draco Meteor
    ~ Dragon Tail
    ~ Shadow Sneak
    ~ Hidden Power Fire / Others

    This is like the pinnacle of spinblocking. Draco Meteor hits really hard and is just a good all-around move. However, the magic happens later. Dragon Tail was a godsend for Giratina-O (not that it really needed it), as it lets it phaze while still doing a bit of damage or being Taunted. This works wonders with tons of entry hazards, as, in addition to blocking Rapid Spin, Giratina-O will be racking up that damage with Dragon Tail. Shadow Sneak acts as a way to clean up some foes that are on especially low health before they recover, as well as deal with on of the banes of stall, Mewtwo. The last slot is sort of up for grabs. HP Fire is good to slam Forretress and Ferrothorn, but it does lose some of its effectiveness without Groudon. Other options for this slot are Aura Sphere, which will always score a neutral hit on Forretress and a 2x super effective hit on Ferrothorn, regardless of the weather. Another possibility is Will-O-Wisp to cripple some Pokemon trying to switch into Giratina-O. Mainly preference here.

    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Timid | 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~ Calm Mind
    ~ Judgment
    ~ Focus Blast
    ~ Recover

    This is another type of spinblocker you can employ. Instead of helping you phaze like Giratina-O, Ghost Arceus can instantly turn into a pretty fearsome lategame sweeper if it is given the chance to set up. After some Calm Minds, Ghost Arceus will be able to not only plow through most Pokemon, but also Recover off lots of special hits. There is another set that you can use, the Support set, which trades the boosting Calm Mind and coverage of Focus Blast for Flamethrower to hit Forretress / Ferrothorn and Will-O-Wisp to check Extreme Killer Arceus or Roar for more phazing. Flamethrower, however, like Giratina-O’s HP Fire, does become a bit less effective in the rain, only 2HKOing Forretress with minimal entry hazards. One note of caution with Ghost Arceus: since it lacks Giratina-O’s Levitate, it is vulnerable to your opponent’s Toxic Spikes and Spikes. Keep this in mind when trying to switch it in repeatedly.

    How to beat SpikeStacking

    Ok, I just outlined one of the most fearsome strategies in Ubers. Let’s beat it now! Nobody wants Ubers to fall into a single archetype tier, as that would be pretty boring. Therefore, I’d like a lot of this thread to be about not only building the perfect SpikeStacking team, but also beating it!

    Probably one of the most effective ways of beating SpikeStacking is using set up sweepers or using Pokemon who hit just silly hard. Either of these types are even better if they have a Flying type or Levitate to avoid Spikes. Here’s a favorite of mine:

    [​IMG]
    Kyogre @ Choice Specs
    Modest | 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
    ~ Water Spout
    ~ Surf
    ~ Thunder
    ~ Ice Beam

    This set is ridiculous. You’ve probably heard me say it, but Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout is the single most powerful unboosted move in the game (V-create does less when factoring base stats and the fact that Kyogre almost always has rain from Drizzle). The current most popular Kyogre set is probably the Scarf set, which is pretty easily handled by Ferrothorn. Specs, however, will 2HKO even through Leftovers and still outspeeds, meaning that your opponent will be at a loss of how to set up their Spikes. With some brute force, you can stop their strategy right in its tracks.

    That’s It

    Okay boys and girls, let’s get to it!
  2. polop

    polop
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    I have the random need to say that Xatu is an absolute troll against teams that rely on Spike stacking. Not only does it wall Ferrothorn, Xatu, and Forry (to an extent) to death, it gets its Flying-typing and roost to insure that no move not boosted by CB will not threaten it, and allows it to still switch-in should the other guy manage to get a layer of Spikes.

    Hydro Pump IMO should be slashed by Surf, missing isn't as often as Stone Edge for some really odd reason on PO, and the 2HKO on Ferrotroll is awesome!

    3 more random things I feel should be mentioned in ways to counter Spike Stacking!

    Perish Song and Taunt. The former forces a spin blocker out (or results in the death of it) but may cause some mind games :( but the spinning is nice, especially when there's SR + 3 layers of spikes!

    Taunt although completely gone in the metagame actually lols at modern day spike stacking stall. Stall 2 beats every single one of the spike setters for example. I'm not even going into baton pass mew with Taunt (everyone has adapted to roar now riiight?)...

    Trick: Stop a wall, screw the stall team's checks against a certain mon, -> clean as profit + no time for that scarfed mon to Phaze. Didn't Vulcan Fury use Scarf Deo-s for that purpose (or something like that or was that Burn all)?

    I strongly disagree with the above, WHERE IS THE LATIAS (lol). I've had pretty good success using a team that doesn't utilize Groudon too, but it got swept by TR's / Hugen's Gyrados -_-. I'm too lazy to start an arguement on that anyways... seeing as how thats 2 years ago with shoddy.

    Also I know its probably extinct now but was Deo-s in a long time ago when it was ACTUALLY POPULAR able to actually be a member of the valuable Spike Stacking chain? If so it should deserve a mention but I've never used it on Spike Stacking with phazing... only with sweepers and a boat.
  3. gookie

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    Why isn't Giriatina-A mentioned as a spinblocker?

    I'm of the opinion that Ferrothorn should run two attacks (gyro ball for shaymin-s / rayquaza).

    Alright, how to beat spike stacking,

    Darkrai - the threat of a nasty plot sweep / dark void will force spikers to switch out most of the time.

    Rayquaza - pretty much any Rayquaza set will force any of the spikers out (use fire blast / overheat).

    Magnezone - not seen much, but it beats three of the four spike stackers mentioned in the OP, and will net another kill if using sub charge (except on skarm).

    surprise sets like

    Focus Punch Palkia - switch in on Kyogre and it's a pretty easy predict, or you can use substitute if you want to make it easier. it won't ohko ferrothorn, but it'll certainly do a lot.

    Fire Punch Groudon, Fire Blast Blissey, HP Fire / Psycho Boost Deoxys-S - even if they predict and switch out or scout with protect it prevents them from coming in and spiking on you. Skarm will still set up on you unless you run Fire Blast, HP Fire won't do too much either.

    Basically when you run offense avoid having places where Ferrothorn can come in and spike all over your ass, aka don't scarf your Palkia, put a fire move on your Dialga, and use set up sweepers that they can't ignore by spiking on you.
  4. Splendiferous

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    Deoxys-S should be mentioned imo, even with team preview not many teams are prepared for it so SR+spikes is almost always up at the start
  5. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Xatu beats pretty much every Spiker in the game apart from the rare Rain Qwilfish and Froslass, just saying.
  6. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Ho-Oh destroys every user of Spikes, including the rare Spikes Deoxys-A. Sacred Fire roasts Ferrothorn and Forretress regardless of the weather, and it can even use them to get up a Sub. Skarmory can only survive LO Sacred Fire if the weather is rainy.

    Brave Bird smashes Tentacruel to bits while even Scald fails to 2HKO Ho-Oh in the rain. Ghost Arceus loses to Ho-Oh as well. Non-Outrage Giratina-O gets walled by Ho-Oh if Stealth Rock isn't up. Tables are turned if Stealth Rock is out though because Giratina-O can KO Ho-Oh with Dragon Tail + Stealth Rock.

    Palkia can just use Lustrous Orb to 2HKO all the Spikes users. Ferrothorn, Forretress gets killed by Fire Blast. Skarmory and Tentacruel dies to Thunder. Fire Blast or Surf KOes Skarmory as well.

    You are missing Deoxys-D in the list :P While it sucks usually due to the typing and low HP stat, Deoxys-D is the fastest and overall bulkiest Spikes user. It has access to Taunt and Recover as well. It is the only Spiker that can come in on some Rayquaza sets and 2HKO it with Ice Beam.
  7. gookie

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    I'd like to revive this thread (kinda) by directing your collective attention to this part of bojangles' post

    What have been some good spikestacking teams you have made?

    Share them here!

    Here are some of mine -

    Show Hide

    Rayquaza @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Air Lock
    EVs: 252 Atk / 36 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake

    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Focus Blast
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Dialga @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 216 HP / 252 SAtk / 40 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Aura Sphere
    - Thunder
    - Fire Blast

    Forretress (M) @ Red Card
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Gyro Ball

    Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Water Spout
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam

    Palkia @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 100 Atk / 156 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Spacial Rend
    - Thunder


    I won't say this is one of my favourite and most successful teams, but it does have a few sets I would like to talk about. Red Card Forretress allows you to put Forry in the lead position and display itself as being 'set-up bait'. However, Red Card means that Forretress can lay down a several layers of hazards if the opponent tries to set up on it with the any non Mold Breaker 'mon (and let's face it, that's pretty much Flame Charge Reshiram and SubHone Zekrom) and it will be pHazed out whenever it chooses to attack, with Sturdy rendering the damage dealt to Forretress non-lethal. Also, I realize that I have Toxic Spikes on this team over Spikes, but they're interchangeable, I just have a preference for Toxic Spikes (you can also put Spikes over Gyro Ball).
    Haban DDQuaza is a set I think deserves more recognition, with people relying on Scarf Palkia to check DD Quaza Spacial Rend with fail to OHKO (look out for Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock!) and you can DD again or kill of Palkia with Dragon Claw to pave the way for another sweeper!
    My Ghost-Arceus is particularly physically defensive to better stand up to Kabutops, Ekiller, and a few other things (I mainly had Kabutops in mind).
    My Dialga packs Aura Sphere because fuck Heatran and it also helps a lot with Dialga mirror matches ;).

    Show Hide

    mr. ogre (Kyogre) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Water Spout
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam

    mr. dragon (Palkia) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Pump
    - Fire Blast

    Arceus-Drago (Arceus-Ghost) @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind
    - Judgment
    - Focus Blast

    faux-steel (Dialga) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 56 SAtk / 172 SDef / 28 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock

    mr. genie (Tornadus) (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hurricane
    - Taunt
    - Tailwind
    - Grass Knot

    mr. bird (Skarmory) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Whirlwind
    - Toxic
    - Roost
    - Spikes


    Okay, this is one of my favourite teams. I've always thought that Tornadus had more potential in Ubers than Thundurus; as it has access to an extremely powerful STAB Hurricane and priority Tailwind. Tailwind sets up Specs Ogre and Palkia to be wallbreaking machines, with Water Spout and Hydro Pump boosted by Rain, STAB, and Specs being extremely powerful. Skarmory acts as my Ekiller and Groudon check, and also provides spikes. Dialga lays down Stealth Rock and provides a defensive pivot. Arceus-Ghost spinblocks and is a potent offensive force, its weakness to Toxic is irritating though. The main problem this team faces is Toxic Spikes, I'm not going to lie. For this reason I have considered Forretress over Skarmory, but the defensive capability lost is great. Also with one layer of Toxic Spikes down Ghost-Arceus can switch in and threaten a sweep.

    I'd rather people not post their bog standard defensive rain core! Also a short paragraph about how your team works would be nice :).
  8. SkullCandy

    SkullCandy She Bangs The Drums
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    I've always found that Terrakion can decimate most spikers once it has set up.

    +2 Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 / 114 +Forretress 61.68 - 72.88%
    +2 Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 / 252 +Skarmory 61.08 - 71.86%
    +2 Terrakion Close Combat vs 252 / 4 Ferrothorn 100%
    +2 Terrakion Stone Edge vs 252 / 64 Tentacruel 100%
  9. barry4ever

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    Well to be perfectly honest, setting up Terrakion is actually tough. Even if you do set up on, none of them should ever stay in on you since it is equivalent to suicide. Also, I personally prefer Toxic on Skarm since it helps Skarm cripple a lot of stuff like Groudon and basically anything not immune to Toxic is going to hate it.

    About beating SpikesStacking there are actually numerous ways to do that. Firstly you can use a Magic Mirror user like Xatu to make Stacking a risky job but personally I feel its inefficient since a simple offensive Dialga on the team can screw up any Xatu strategies. Personally, I feel the most efficient way to break Spikes Stacking is to force your opponent to think:

    1)I can get a layer in and possibly lose my spiker.
    2)I can get my ass out of here and not get spikes.

    Basically, when using an offensive team the best (imo) way to break spikes stacking is to apply constant offensive pressure on the opponent. This isn't always easy since it requires a fair bit of prediction and is kind of tricky but its the best way I've found of stopping Spikes. This style is rather hard to apply on the more "balanced" teams since they are the ones who get hurt by Spikes the most. Most balanced teams pose no threat to Ferrothorn especially since Kyogre is popular on balance. Using spinners also really doesnt work as Giratina-O is just a brick wall in front of all your spinning attempts. The only playstyle which can really "guarantee" a spin is Sand Offensive with Tyranitar and Excadrill since they dont really care about Giratina-O.

    Lastly, why isn't Deoxys-S up there as a Spiker ? Yes, its no longer as good as it used to be but its definitely still capable of getting down Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes even if your opponent does have Giratina-O. Just switch out and send in a Pokemon which doesnt really care about Giratina-O.
  10. Jibaku

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    A method I've used in the attempt to combat spikestacking is by surprise Rapid Spins. By that I don't mean something silly like Rapid Spin Hitmonlee or Delibird. It's important to remember that the primary role of the surpriseSpin Pokemon isn't to spin. These Pokemon provide strong amounts of offense and the first response to them is generally not a Ghost.

    In case you havent figured it out, I'm talking about Kabutops and Cloyster.

    I've used Kabutops to a fair extent back during the #dw No Arceus challenge, and sometime after as well. Kabutops acted primarily as a cleaner that also possessed the ability to Rapid Spin, allowing me to perform a clutch Rapid Spin and turn the tides of battle. Ghosts typically don't switch into Kabutops because he just hurts them too much (Giratina-O and Ghost Arceus are easily 2HKOed with LO Stone Edge/Waterfall, respectively, and Giratina-A just melts to Spikes). Instead they'll send in things like Groudon, Gastrodon, or Grass Arceus to stop it, and what better way to punish these switchins by Rapid Spinning the precious Spikes they all love? There were also times that I won because Kabutops' speed allowed it to land a quick Rapid Spin before dying, opening up an opportunity for my Arceus to Recover and begin its sweep. That same speed allows it to outrun Deoxys-S, meaning that it can't get a layer off before dying. Of course, Kabutops isn't a very reliable spinner, but he can grab you Rapid Spins at where it counts most. And let's face it - it's very difficult to Spin in Ubers anyways. Oh and Kabutops does a decent job of wrecking rain teams that lack Rayquaza/Grassceus/Gastrodon/Giratina, which means you sometimes dont even need to spin to win games!

    Well actually I lied. I haven't used Cloyster, but I'd imagine that it can use Rapid Spin on the last slot of its Smashpass set. Icicle Spear/Rock Blast is usually all that it needs and it's very difficult to spinblock it because Giratina/Giratina-O can't come in and Ghost Arceus takes quite a beating from +2 Icicle Spear. Cloyster does appear to have a lot of issues that Kabutops doesn't have, though, such as its mediocre Speed and Stealth Rock weakness, which almost makes it a do or die kind of Pokemon (although if you do pull of a Rapid Spin you probably won't have to worry much about hazards for some time). I'm fairly sure there are people who used Rapid Spin Cloyster, and I would appreciate hearing input on this
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Your Kabutops have Waterfall? Mine has Swords Dance instead. However, I haven't find myself using Swords Dance at all, so maybe Waterfall may be a good switch :d

    I've been using Kabutops recently, and I find it difficult to bring it in to battle. Most Ubers are bulky enough to survive a strong hit from Kabutops, so it's really hard to force switches necessary to pull off that Spin. Spikers and SR mons threaten to Power Whip / Draco Meteor / EQ Kabutops to oblivion, too, so I'm curious how you successfully wield this beast.
  12. trickroom

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    Forretress itself seems to be a pretty good anti spikes. Skarmory can't do much against Forretress but Taunt while Ferrothorn is set up on by Forretress. I didn't use much about Kabutops but I died fast when I used it. Since many Ghost Arceus today dropped Flamethrower for Focus Blast to nail Arceus and Ferrothorn in the rain, Forretress can Toxic and setup on Ghost Arceus, giving you the advantage. I noticed many Giratina-O dropped Hidden Power Fire for Thunder so Forretress can set up on it too. Great Wall Giratina can only burn Forretress.

    Cloyster is worse in my opinion because while it can blow past things if it managed to smash, it is weak to every hazard type. Cloyster rarely gets the time to set up and spin, but I guess a surprise spin does work.

    Kabutops also resists Extremespeed which sort of helps against Arceus a bit. Cloyster has huge Defense but it's typing is really horrible.

    I used a Defensive Cloyster in Ubers :) It can survive a +1 LO Outrage from Rayquaza, after Stealth Rock Cloyster will always die though. Cloyster is the only spinner that can immediately threaten Groudon, sort of with Icicle Spear. Fire Punch Groudon OHKOes Ferrothorn so Power Whip isn't helping you there. Cloyster easily survives even Stone Edge if Groudon still carries that today.

    I usually get to spin with Excadrill in rain teams. +2 Shadow Claw easily kills Giratina-O / Ghost Arceus in 2 hits. If Ghost Arceus is using Flamethrower it cannot hurt Excadrill in the rain.
  13. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    I can attest to Kabutops performing well as a Rapid Spinner and lategame cleaner / last-ditch Extremekiller Arceus revenge killer, but it does have issues in the first role. It's biggest flaw is being unable to Spin safely against the Spikers themselves; Ferrothorn obviously OHKOes with Power Whip and Forretress can Gyro Ball for a good chunk or simply Volt Switch out.

    As for Cloyster, my mantra is "why Rapid Spin when you can Shell Smash?" Cloyster is not the kind of Pokemon you can slap onto a team. The team needs to be built around Cloyster and giving it that pivotal turn to set up after removing the opponent's priority users / insanely fast Choice Scarfers (like Darkrai fast) / really bulky Water-types. So for such a team setting Cloyster up for that opportunity is pivotal and using Rapid Spin is a waste of that turn in which Cloyster could have instead won the game or torn some holes in the opponent's team. That said, Cloyster is very effective at Rapid Spinning so you can try that if it floats your boat I guess.

    As for Spikers: I quite like Spikes Deoxys-A. Yes, you read that correctly. A, not S. the reason for this is because Deoxys-A itself forces switches, and can function perfectly well with just Psycho Boost, Superpower, and coverage move X or ExtremeSpeed. It really puts the opponent in a bad position if you use Spikes as they switch. They're once again caught at the disadvantageous 50/50 position a Deoxys-A with no drops against a slower Pokemon puts a player in, and that situation only gets worse if they switch only for another layer of Spikes to be set, or just let their wall die. And if they switch their Choice Scarfer / priority mon (often the only method they have of coping with Deoxys-A) only for it to dies to Psycho Boost, then they are often in a whole mess of trouble since they likely no longer have anything that can outspeed Deoxys-A.
  14. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    The topic is Stackspiking. What makes spikers good at stacking is their ability to switch into a number of pokes and still being able to set up. Examples of this are Ferrothorn and Skarmory. Deoxys-A on the other hand, can not switch in. How are you suppose to stack hazards when you have problems switching in the first place. Unless you use him as a lead (lol) or for sorta revenge killer, you are better off using other pokes.
  15. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    I don't see why that is so laughable. I think Tobes means exactly that, as Deoxys-A leading with Spikes in its moveset is perfectly viable, hell, I've even lead with DUAL hazards Deoxys-A; it poses a great offensive presence, and as such causes many switches - it also has great speed to boot, a trait many spikers would kill to have.

    Also your definition is completely flawed, what makes a spiker good is how well it lays down entry hazards. The traits that allow them to perform their job can, and will, differ. I do not think that you will dispute that Deoxys-S is a great spiker, or Froslass in UU, or indeed many other examples all spring to mind that do not fit your 'definition'. The traits that make Ferrothorn and Skarmory so good at laying down spikes are indeed their ability to switch into a wide variety of opposing Pokemon, shrug off hits, and then lay down hazards. Deoxys-S, on the other uses its great speed and access to taunt to place spikes; likewise, Deoxys-A's speed is in a tier of its own (high) and to boot it has insane offensive stats, and can bluff a non-lead set, unlike its faster cousin.

    edit: it's like people don't know how to address a point

    saying deoxys-a has crap defences is about as relevant as saying skarmory has 0 offensive presence
  16. StallMandibuzz

    StallMandibuzz

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    Deoxys-A has absolute crap defences, and it would get thrashed by every hard hitter in the Ubers tier. If you knew they were switching, then it could possibly work, but Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress got SpikeStacking licked. Skarmory and Forretress have been at this game since Gen II, and Ferrothorn just joined in Gen V. Shows how valuable Steel typing is.
  17. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Honestly Spikes Deoxys-A is pretty viable because its offensive presence can force switches and make the enemy believe that you don't have Spikes. Chances are, if you got one layer down as they switch their Groudons or so away in fear of Ice Beam/Psycho Boost/whatever, you'll get all three layers in before dying. If 2+ layers of Spikes isn't spikestacking, I don't know what is.

    Also, it's easy to fool your enemy into thinking that it's your team's cleaner in team preview. Put Groudon or Dialga in front, and Deoxys-A in the back. They likely won't expect a suicide Spiker lead, and they probably won't send out a lead with an advantage against it. There's also a good chance that you won't reveal any other move but Spikes (and maybe one other), so it gives you some room to counter their "counter" if you run into the same person again.

    The biggest problem with Deoxys-A, though, is that it's hard to make a team with it, ironically due to the role it fills. You can no longer expect it to act as your team's cleaner, and as a Spiker you must weigh the pros and cons compared to Deoxys-S. That doesn't stop it from being a monstrous Spiker, however.

    Oh and it has a horrible 4 moveslot syndrome. It basically wants Spikes, moves for general coverage (so stuff like Rayquaza or Arceus won't set up on it), and moves to counter the Spinners. If you can fit them all in, then awesome lol. It's just something I personally struggle with.

    @ Kabutops
    He's incredibly hard to switch in and his bad defenses means that resisted hits will tear off a good chunk (Kyogre's Ice Beam, Arceus' ExtremeSpeed). He does have a quad fire resist and a lot of revenging opportunities, and sometimes just surviving a hit is enough, however. Often times, I find Kabutops just killing things and not Rapid Spinning, but when it does get that Rapid Spin off, it can turn the tides of the match.

    Kabutops isn't powerful enough to OHKO most Ubers but he does >50% to most of them (Waterfall does like 87% to Mewtwo, and Dialga takes ~75% from Low Kick, for instance). Get some of your Spikes in and there's not much they could do without changing the weather.

    Set I used was Waterfall/Low Kick/Stone Edge/Rapid Spin @ Life Orb. Swords Dance is a great move but I find that Kabutops usually dies after Rapid Spinning anyways. Point is, if if it doesn't kill something, it'll probably die, and a sacrificial Rapid Spin is much better than a sacrificial Swords Dance...
  18. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    This strategy is so threatening in Ubers because the common spinners (Tentacruel and Forretress) cannot beat Ghost Arceus or Giratina by themselves, which just makes it a lot harder to Rapid Spin away. One of my favorite teams is my Jynx team: (yes shrang, JYNXXXXX)

    Team (open)
    Leviathan (Kyogre) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 52 HP / 252 SAtk / 204 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Water Spout
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Ice Beam

    Holli (Jynx) (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 200 HP / 4 Def / 88 SDef / 216 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Lovely Kiss
    - Nasty Plot
    - Ice Beam

    G-Shock (Dialga) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 160 HP / 252 SAtk / 96 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder
    - Fire Blast

    Skar (Skarmory) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Toxic
    - Whirlwind

    Origin (Giratina-O) @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 208 HP / 60 Atk / 188 Def / 52 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Tail
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Will-O-Wisp

    Excabreak (Excadrill) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Rush
    EVs: 176 HP / 60 Atk / 252 SDef / 20 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Rapid Spin


    I'll add in the stuff about it later, but until then spark up the discussion here, on one of the most dangerous playstyles out there!
  19. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    I have found Exadrill to be quite the handy Spinner. It's actually quite bulky, can spin and threaten SD on Ferro, and beats the most common spin blocker, Giratina-O, one on one. It has some good synergy with Rain teams and I find it works quite well with Arceus-Grass to threaten the obvious Ogre and Groudon switches.

    Also I want to mention SubHone Claws Zekrom because it beats the standard Ogre/Ferro quite easily.
  20. Adam Lambert

    Adam Lambert

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    This is not true. Not true at all. While Zekrom is setting up Hone Claws and a Sub, Ferrothorn is getting 3 layers of Spikes up, switching to a mon to break sub while you kill it, then forcing you out with ScarfOgre. You lost; you did not not win.
  21. gookie

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    It's all situational, one side loses Ferrothorn + another pokemon, quite possibly a scarfer (beware of wasting pokemon on fast sub hone sets) and leaves in a scarf Kyogre locked into Ice Beam. Contentious, certainly.
  22. Iceydude168

    Iceydude168

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    I've become rather fond of Ghost-Arceus as a spinblocker, especially Perish Trap Ghostceus that removes spinners from the game permanently.
    Here's the set:

    Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Whirlpool
    - Perish Song

    While this Arceus may seem to be a huge burden if it's the last Pokemon, it's very good against not only Spinblockers, but many Physical Attackers, serving as an excellent utility Pokemon even when their Rapid Spinner (if they even have one) is removed.
    The EVs are pretty simple: enough speed to outrun max speed neutral Base 120's (like Extremekilling SD Arceus), Max HP, rest in Defense.
  23. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    Donkey and I approve of this set. We also approve of running it with 2 other ghosts, including Choice Scarf Gengar with Destiny Bond. Instant weather. GG.

    Legit though that set looks fun.
  24. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    I said Ogre + Ferro, not the whole team. Situational certainly, but it does set up all over Ferro (+ Forry!)

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