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Ubers Stats June 2013

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Theorymon, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

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    Hmm... Ho-oh does not require as much prediction as the opponent has to predict of ho-oh. Also spin support is all there need in a sun team with ho-oh. I know that genesect is one of the best scafter along with palkia, I just don't like it... That it is predictable now, due to people overusing one set. It is not like the ekiller arceus where it is ok to overuse because it is just so good. Genesect does not IMO have the raw power to be predictable.
  2. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
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    Predictability + uturn
    Predicting the uturn
    What is wrong with this phrase? Gene has the raw power to check everything important (latis, ray, darkrai, mewtwo, w/e gets ohko'd by explosion, etc) not to mention PREDICTING THE UTURN! There have been dozens upon dozens of pages on why uturn is broken in ou, those same reasons apply in ubers.
  3. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    That's the beauty of Genesect. It doesn't matter that it's the most predictable mon in the game (though watch out for Banded sets), you can't do anything about it. I mean, you know that Genesect is going to U-Turn; you can't actually stop it from U-Turning. Best thing you can do is switch into Ghostceus or Ho-Oh to take it and then get immediately forced out. Genesect works on every single team, in fact, it's amazing on stall, forcing pokes to keep switching to take hazard damage. Yea, he's easily top 10.

    Also, I'll say this every single month until it goes down: Lugia is not a top 10 pokemon. Please stop using it. It's just a sitting duck, waiting for Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, or p much any hazard layer to just set up in its face. What will it do back? Dragon Tail. OK. Oh wait, they're just switching back in next turn anyway, because Dragon Tail does less than lefties. Also what:

    Um, that means Lugia hasn't done its job. It was forced out due to the fear of being poisoned (unless I'm mistaken, you're implying that you switched your lugia out to your Forretress and carry toxic on that too).

    The only Lugia set that I've found moderately decent is CM. Simply because teams without a phazer can't deal with it. It's not great, and I'd much rather use Mewtwo, but it's always funny to imagine the panic on somebody's face as they switch in to their Ferrothorn, only to be set up on themselves.
    blitzlefan likes this.
  4. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

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    Lugia's job is to be a general wall while providing adequate team support in the form of screens, status and phazing. Usually Lugia will come in on something that it can wall and proceed to set up a screen. It follows that the opposing Pokemon will retreat due to Lugia's immense defenses and in it's place will come a more suitable answer to Lugia. With the addition of multiscale to Lugia's arsenal, very few Pokemon can claim to take Lugia down by brute force, thus, resorting to toxic (which few ubers carry). As you mentioned, Lugia will switch out "in fear" to Forretress to take the toxic. However, the end result is this, Lugia forced a switch and was forced out, but Lugia already partially done his job by providing screen support whereas the opposition attempt to toxify a steel bug is futile.

    It is irrelevant that Lugia cannot do anything to Forretress, Ferrothorn or Skarmory as Lugia is not an offensive Pokemon. Ironically, a lot of offensive pokemon cannot even deal with the aforementioned three. When one is faced with a +2 Arceus, +2 Groudon, +2 Garchomp or +2 Terrakion, to name a few, one will appreciate the support provided by Lugia.
  5. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Honestly you just explained yourself why Ho-Oh is not top 10 usage material, even though if you keep SR off the field and have sun support it is probably the single most threatening Pokemon in Ubers. However, sun and multiweather only constituted roughly 1/3 of all teams (where not all multiweather teams run sun) and while Ho-Oh does not need to be in sun to be effective, rain (the most common weather) ruins one of its STABs. Add the fact that it is rarely the best option for a team to run if it lacks spin or at least magic bounce support, and you get a Pokemon that is extremely good with the proper support, but usually not the best option for a team that lacks said support.

    As for Genesect, pretty much every team wants to use a Scarf Pokemon, simply because revenge killing is usually the easiest option to deal with some fast, frail sweepers (Rayquaza, Mewtwo, Darkrai). It can handle all the top threats you want revenge killed and does its job perfectly unsupported, so it can fit in virtually any team (which is where Ho-Oh fails to get a place in the top 10). Yes, Genesect is predictable, much in the sense in which every Scarfmon is predictable, as their primary purpose is to revenge kill. This does not change the fact that pretty much every team wants to run a (admittedly predictable) Scarfmon and Genesect is often superior. Moreover, as Haruno pointed out, predicting U-Turn rarely ever gives you an advantage, which is an enormous part of the reason Genesect is such a great Scarfmon. At any rate, prediction is always a poor argument, as prediction can go both ways, and furthermore a terrible argument as to why a Scarf Pokemon isn't amazing, because predictability goes hand in hand with revenge killing (not to mention that if the Scarfmon forces the opposing sweeper out it's usually done its job).

    Really though, the problem is that you misinterpret the usage stats. You cannot think of it in terms of #12 = 12th best Pokemon, because that is not how it works. More than anything, the usage stats show how well a Pokemon fits into various teams. Kyogre can run several excellent sets (where quite a few Ubers only have one or two that are comparably good), both offensive and defensive, making it very versatile and easy to fit into a variety of teams. Moreover, its rain provides substantial support for many Pokemon and only hinders a minority (of which some, like Ho-Oh, can still be good alongside Kyogre in teams with Kyogre+Groudon). This is the reason Kyogre is and will likely continue to be #1 in usage (at least until 6th gen, and maybe even throughout 6th gen). It's not because Specs Water Spout is that amazing (which Kyurem-W's Draco Meteor can pretty much keep up with, and look where it is) or because its SDef set is a great way to check Darkrai and Arceus-Ghost. Kyogre is simply incredibly easy to fit into a team because many of its sets need no real support and it can work in anything from hyper offense to full stall. Similarly, if you look at the top 10, all of them either summon their own weather or work just as well in any weather (OK, Palkia kinda sucks in Sand, but that's minor) and require little if any support. If you want a list of Pokemon ordered by how good they are instead of how many different teams they can be good in, you're better off looking here. Also, the weighted stats (only players with 1850+ rating) are also a better indicator of where things should be (where you'll find Ho-Oh IS in the top 10).
    blitzlefan likes this.
  6. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Multiscale is incredible in theory, but in reality often falls short. The ubiquitous Stealth Rock (which is very difficult to prevent or remove) not only ruins Multiscale for when Lugia tries to switch in, but also takes a huge 25% of its bulk. Add unfortunate Electric/Ice/Rock/Ghost/Dark weaknesses, and Lugia's walling capability is severely compromised. Being both spikes fodder and completely unable to prevent spinning also limit its usefulness as a wall, where Groudon can run moves to hurt spinners/spikers and Giratina can at least spinblock. Ironically, all the threats you mentioned (bar Garchomp in the case of Giratina, but no one uses Garchomp anyways) are better handled by both Giratina and Groudon whenever SR is on the field (Garchomp and Terrakion both wreck it, while Groudon pretty much forces a situation where you risk Roost being PP stalled out and Lugia becoming a shell of a useful Pokemon). Although +2 Groudon, +2 Garchomp and +2 Terrakion are all relatively obscure threats and I'm not quite sure why you mentioned them.
  7. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    Fair point, but it is not entirely irrelevant what Lugia can't do to defensive mons, as they will switch in on you for free. But the niche it has with Multiscale, especially against Hyper Offensive teams who often lack a spinner makes it worthwhile as long as you cover up your team's stall weakness, which is inherent when you use Lugia.

    Well yes, you have a fair point too, spikes fodder is bad, but spin fodder is worse. As long as Lugia has substitute, Ferrothorn is for example set-up bait for Lugia's sub+toxic set, which can be really devastating should the opponent not carry a spinner. And none of those threats are handled better by Groudon or Giratina as Lugia has reliable recovery. If you can prevent SR, Multiscale is great in practice too. Really, Lugia is pretty bad against stall, but against offensive teams it can have the chance to shine with the amazing move that people seem to forget too often: Thunder Wave.
  8. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

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    I think you are a bit confused, Lugia does not get pp stalled, Lugia does the pp stalling. Also, Groudon and Giratina lack of recovery hamper their walling capacity. Moreover, Giratina weakness to common moves in the uber environment is detrimental, more so than Lugia. Groudon crumples to mixed Rayquaza and is not suited to be a wall due to low special defense and speed. While it is true that multiscale lose some of it utility due to SR, one cannot discount the fact that with the proper support, Lugia can withstand astronomical blows.
  9. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Mixed Rayquaza's sole purpose is a wallbreaker, thanks to its ability to break walls. Pointing out that a wall crumbles to it is redundant. Groudon is widely regarded as an effective physical wall; neither good bulk from the other spectrum nor speed are required to be a wall (you will not tell me that Chansey is not suited to be a wall because of her mediocre physical bulk and atrocious speed). Moreover, Lugia's better speed is not good for much without significant investment, while such significant investment weakens it considerably.

    Giratina's weakness to dragon (Lugia shares its other weaknesses so those are hardly an argument) is unfortunate, but in return it has valuable resistances that Lugia wishes it had. In general though, requiring support as a wall just kind of sucks, and while it can wall things harder than Giratina in the absence of SR, it also folds more easily when SR is present. Resttalk admittedly is a lot worse than Roost, although at least Giratina is unhampered by status.

    Whenever SR is on the field (as I originally said) Lugia cannot handle +2 Garchomp or +2 Terrakion at all; they outspeed it (unless it runs a lot of speed, but this in turn means it loses a lot of bulk) and outright KO it with Stone Edge. Depending on its and Lugia's set, Groudon may also outspeed it and its +2 Stone Edge will also KO with SR.

    Undoubtedly it has great potential as a wall, and can definitely provide valuable team support with status, phazing and screens. However, as guaranteeing the absence of Stealth Rock consistently is pretty much unfeasible (let's not go into making a team with 2 spinners, 2 magic bouncers and Lugia and Ho-Oh), its walling power is unfortunately significantly compromised quite often. Can it be an excellent wall for a team? Yes. Is it worthy of being the 10th most used Pokemon in Ubers (the original point being debated)? I think not.
    Blim, blitzlefan and Gogeta like this.
  10. DoABarrelRoll

    DoABarrelRoll

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    Lugia is better off running whirlwind. Dragon Tail isn't breaking any subs thanks to lugia's downright terrible attack, while whirlwind, especially when used with substitute can prevent lugia from being set up bait for ferrothorn and forretress. Also, Lugia can shuffle teams very easily if its team has set up multiple layers of entry hazards.

    Why the fuck does latias have more usage than latios? Because Latias checks Kyogre? so can Ferrothorn. Looks like we forgot about Soul Dew Draco Meteor off 130 spa. Latias is stopped by many more threats than Latios because of her much weaker offensive presence.
  11. Gogeta

    Gogeta

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    Meh. Nitpicking. Whirwlind doesn't stop ferrothorn or forretress setting up on it btw. As soon as they're whirlwinded out, they just switch back in anyway. And if you're using Lugia on a hazard stacking team, then it's inferior to pokemon like Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, even Kyurem B pulls off a surprisingly effective hone claws dragon tail shuffler set.

    Because they do completely different things. Latias is an amazingly versatile pokemon, ranging from offensive pivot, to dual screens, to calm mind sweeper. Latios just blows teams to pieces with one very powerful set (I can't think of other sets it can do other than the 4 attacks wallbreaker better than Latias).

    Seriously, use Latias more. It's so good. It does not "just" check Kyogre; it's an almost universal answer on the ladder to most Kyogre. Ferrothorn can only beat like, 3 of the viable Kyogre sets (Scarf, CM 3 attacks maybe, and maaaybe defensive Kyogre depending on scald burns). It loses to Specs, Crogre, CM+Water Gem, etc. Latias doesn't. That's not to say it can't be beaten, but on the ladder, a team with a Latias is generally safe from Kyogre. That is frigging huge, ESPECIALLY because Latias is also a good pokemon, unlike Shedinja or w/e else.

    Then there's the fact that Latias not just beats Kyogre, but also fucks with sun teams quite a bit (though lesser so now Genesect is a thing :/). Yes Latios can do this too, but only does it in one way generally, whereas Latias has the versatility to make switching in the wrong pokemon a game breaker. Switching in your Ho-Oh on a Reflect Latias can lead to a sweep from any number of set up sweepers in the tier. Switching in your Genesect on an HP Fire means dead Genesect (Genesect doesn't switch in on Latios for fear of this, yet on the ladder no-one suspects it on Latias, which is weird). Switching in your Arceus Ghost on a T-Wave Latias can severely cripple your main sweeper. Whilst nothing switches into Latios anyway, Latias has numerous common switch ins that can be taken advantage of in a way Latios cannot do as well.

    And of course obligatory, "dat bulk", statement. It's the reason why Latias checks so much that Latios can't, making it an amazing addition for more balanced teams. Latias can withstand Ice Beams from Mewtwo, Latios is 2HKOd on the switch. Latias can switch in to Specs Kyogre safely (ish), Latios can't. Latias can take attacks like Darkrai's LO Dark Pulse and kill it or cripple it back, Latios can't (I've actually stalled out a Darkrai with Light Screen Latias before). Latias can survive Kyurem-W's draco-fucking-meteor if it fully invests, Latios can't. The difference in bulk is too great to even compare them in defensive utility; Latias simply stomps on Latios here.

    Also I hate this implication that Latias is weak. Even though it can wallbreak to surprising success (I run a rain counter wall breaking set with like Thunder, Grass Knot, w/e I feel like), it's obviously weaker than Latios. That's just a tautology, no shit that a wallbreaker hits harder than a pivot/utility mon. But even with no investment, I THINK (don't pound me if I'm wrong) Latias hits 384 sp.atk. That is not weak. That hits harder than max invested Keldeo for instance. Its dragon pulses are only slightly weaker than say, Palkia's on average (it's like 1% or something).

    So on review, you have several differences:
    -Latias offers far more versatility and team support than Latios
    -Offers near guaranteed protection against Kyogre on the ladder (I'm stressing this because at a tourney level it's likely to lose to some weird gimmick)
    -Shits on Sun just as much as Latios, if not more if you're counter teaming with the set.
    -Has far more defensive utility
    -Can actually sweep teams as well as wallbreak (there's a reason you never see CM Latios)
    -Still hits incredibly fucking hard if you invest

    Yea, you really need to use Latias more if you think it should even really be compared with Latios. They're just different pokemon that offer different things, despite being very aesthetically similar.

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