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Ubers Survivor

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Dracoyoshi8, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    With an unanimous six votes, Groudon has been removed in spite of being generally superior to some of the other contestants. Groudon will now spend the rest of the year drinking away his sorrows with MooMoo Milk and playing Voltorb Flip. Now, since I have some challenges ready this time, we shall begin now! This is also why this post is a little late. However, before I begin stating the challenge, we shall do a quick summary of the important things!

    The Five Contestants:
    [​IMG]
    MEWTWO
    First Introduced: Pokemon Red and Green
    Typing: Psychic
    Fun Fact: Only Pokemon to be Uber for all five generations.
    [​IMG]
    DIALGA
    First Introduced: Pokemon Diamond and Pearl
    Typing: Dragon/Steel
    Fun Fact: Has the highest Special Attack of all Steel-types.
    [​IMG]
    ZEKROM
    First Introduced: Pokemon Black and White
    Typing: Dragon/Electric
    Fun Fact: Cannot learn any Fire-type attacks, which really blows.
    [​IMG]
    MANAPHY
    First Introduced: Pokemon Ranger (as an egg)
    Typing: Water
    Fun Fact: Somehow lasted longer than Groudon.
    [​IMG]
    GIRATINA-O
    First Introduced: Pokemon Platinum
    Typing: Dragon/Ghost
    Fun Fact: Only Uber to have Levitate in Gen V.



    SCENARIO FOUR: Due to how the winner is the contestant able to last the longest in multiple competitive situations, I have decided to make the new challenge be a battle against the top ten used monsters in the stats using their most common set! Natures will be assigned according to use if the set in question may have multiple natures. If this seems to be too much, then simply the top five will do. Of course, I'm going to list the monsters and their most common sets so you don't have to look them up yourself. Keep in mind that the best contestant does not need to beat these sets; merely just do better than the other contestants and minimize the damage that would be done to your team from their actions.

    Show Hide
    Kyogre @ Choice Scarf
    Modest
    4 HP/252 Sp. Atk/Speed
    Water Spout
    Surf
    Thunder
    Ice Beam

    Arceus @ Silk Scarf
    Adamant
    88 HP/252 Atk/ 168 Speed
    Swords Dance
    Extremspeed
    Shadow Claw
    Earthquake

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Impish
    252 HP/Def/ 4 Atk
    Earthquake
    Stealth Rock
    Stone Edge
    Thunder Wave

    Mewtwo @ Life Orb
    Timid
    4 HP/252 Sp. Atk/Speed
    Psystrike
    Aura Sphere
    Ice Beam
    Calm Mind

    Palkia @ Choice Scarf
    Timid
    4 HP/252 Sp. Atk/Speed
    Spatial Rend
    Surf
    Thunder
    Fire Blast

    Darkrai @ Leftovers
    Timid
    4 HP/252 Sp. Atk/Speed
    Dark Void
    Dark Pulse
    Focus Blast
    Nasty Plot

    Rayquaza @ Life Orb
    Jolly
    252 Atk/Speed/4 Sp. Atk
    Dragon Dance
    Outrage
    Earthquake
    Overheat

    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Impish
    252 HP/176 Def/80 Sp.Def
    Roost
    Substitute
    Ice Beam
    Toxic

    Dialga @ Leftovers
    Modest
    252 HP/56 Sp. Atk/200 Sp.Def
    Stealth Rock
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Thunder

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Sassy
    252 HP/48 Atk/208 Sp.Def
    Leech Seed
    Power Whip
    Spikes
    Stealth Rock


    Voting for immunity will begin on Saturday, January 19th, at 6 P.M. EST. Feel free to discuss which contestant you feel should be granted immunity until then. Now, cue the large number of people viewing this thread!
  2. ssbbm

    ssbbm

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,019
    id have to say dialga as it beats every mon up there with either its choice scarf or its bulk up set!

    zekrom is pretty nifty too, but it loses to dialga regardless of set, groudon if its not mixed (and most groudon do run spdef evs so!), and it gets beat by palkia 1v1 as well.

    manaphy actually also does surprisingly well assuming rain up as it can beat everything but the first 5.

    mewtwo beats most mons but the scarfers

    i want to say giratina-o loses as it can't beat anything 1v1 really besides groudon
  3. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    I think it would be for the best if we limited it to top 5, as all the contestants lose to something in the top ten, and I don't want to write mountains of text on each one.

    All in all, I'd give the victory to Dialga. The scarf set once again does extremely well here. Kyogre will be speed tying, and cannot OHKO regardless. Dialga can hit with a super effective Thunder at least once for massive damage, meaning it will never leave the exchange without blowing a huge hole in the rain setter.

    Against the Extreme Killer, the scarf set can guaranteed 2HKO with Aura Sphere if running modest, and has a 64.84% chance to 2HKO with timid. Meanwhile, EQ is only doing 54.8 - 64.97% back, giving Dialga a fairly comfortable victory.

    Groudon is a tougher opponent, but Scarf Dialga still comes out on top, with Draco Meteor, Ice Beam and sun boosted Fire Blast all being guaranteed 2HKOs. The set posted can never OHKO scarf Dialga with EQ however, meaning Dialga barely comes out on top once again.

    Dialga has a 93.75% chance to win against Timid pyscho killer Mewtwo. The scarf set always 2HKOs with Draco Meteor, while LO Aura Sphere from Timid only has 6.25% chance to OHKO, leaving Dialga with a huge chance of victory.

    Finally, as we discovered in the last round, Scarf Dialga takes a whopping shit all over Scarf Palkia. There's only one victor here, and it's not Kingdra's big brother. What we learn from this is that Scarf Dialga beats the top 5 mons in ubers one on one, which outside of this contest, shows what a freaking incredible poke it is.

    As for the other pokes, my assessment is as follows. Mewtwo also performs very strongly here, beating all but Extreme Killer and Kyogre one on one (2HKOs with E-Speed, and can always take an aura sphere). Mewtwo cannot take scarf water spout in rain either. But all in all, 3 out of 5 is not bad (against the opposing Mewtwo, it comes down to speed ties [assuming Mewtwo is not running a specialised set], which makes it more 2.5/5.)

    Zekrom with a bulky band set does rather well. Kyogre is obviously annihilated, and Mewtwo cannot OHKO with Ice Beam, then gets raped by a Bolt Strike. Palkia only has a 43.75% chance to OHKO with Spacial rend, meaning Zekrom has an above average chance to win 1v1. Groudon beats it though, and EK 2HKOs with EQ, while Zekrom BARELY misses out on the OHKO with Bolt Strike (rolls 99.7% max). Zekrom too gets a 2.5/5.

    This leaves us with Giratina-O and Manaphy. And once again, I am thoroughly surprised at how... "OK" Manaphy does. No one set does better than the others, but with those low yet oh so wonderfully balanced stats, Manaphy has a chance to beat every poke it comes up against 1v1, IF rain is up. Running a more specially bulky set, Manaphy can comfortably live a Thunder, T-Wave Ogre, then Rest stall (rain will be up) until Kyogre gets fully paralysed. Then it can go for tail glow, live a hit, and OHKO with Grass Knot or Thunder (both do 107.01 - 126.31% at +3).

    Unfortunately, Manaphy cannot do much against EK except fish for Scald burns, which is viable. Max HP Max defense+ Manaphy takes 29.2 - 34.4% from E-Speed. Seeing as Scald has a 100 billion percent chance to burn, it's an OK plan.

    Groudon loses because... well duh.

    Manaphy has to deal with Mewtwo the same way it has to deal with Kyogre; by stalling and hoping for hax. Manaphy can live a Thunder with Max/Max, T-Wave, and Rest stall. Due to the LO though, this matchup is easier for Manaphy. Manaphy and Palkia is won in the same way too.

    Bear in mind that in most scenarios, Manaphy's way of winning is destroyed by a lack of rain. But it is quite surprising to see that, by basically holding on for dear life, Manaphy can win one on one against everything. Then again, with great bulk and great typing, perhaps I shouldn't be so shocked.

    This leaves Giratina-O in the loser's corner then, who cannot do much to any of them. It can't stall as well as Manaphy, as it cannot have reliable recovery in any scenario, and despite having higher offensive stats, it lacks the typing needed to power through the top 5, while also lacking the bulk of its brother to take hits needed to win.

    To conclude: Dialga is win, Gira is lose.
  4. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    441
    What?
    A Calm Mind+Restalk Giratina-O that invests in Special Defense can beat Scarf Ogre easily. It 2hkos Arceus with Draco Meteor + Outrage while +2 Shadow Claw does not OHKO. Giratina-O beats Groudon 1 vs 1. Giratina-O beats Mewtwo 1 vs 1 thanks to Shadow Sneak. Palkia does not OHKO Giratina-O while Giratina-O OHKOs back with Draco Meteor.

    Manaphy loses to Kyogre, Arceus, Mewtwo and Palkia.
    Bulky Swords Dance Specially Defensive Groudon has a chance to beat Manaphy.
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Groudon: 340-402 (84.15 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 36 Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 313-370 (91.52 - 108.18%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    This is completely wrong. Manaphy does not learn Thunderwave. Manaphy does not have Thunder. BTW what sort of Manaphy set is that? Rest / Tail Glow / Thunder Wave(wrong but you said it) / Grass Knot.

    Manaphy has the worst chance to beat any of them.

    EDIT: Sorry about the Specially Defensive Groudon. I was just saying that it is possible.
  5. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    ^^^^^

    Holy shit, my friends have been cheating then, lol. I never paid enough attention to Manaphy to notice :D

    Btw, the Groudon will not be at +2 or specially defensive or whatever, the set its using was posted in the challenge briefing. Standard support.
  6. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    So, Manaphy seem to be in the average range again, hm? I'm honestly not too surprised at this point.

    Anyway, voting for immunity shall now begin and will continue until Monday, January 21st, at 6 P.M. EST! Votes must be in bold or they will not count. Remember that while the top ten/five monsters have their sets premade, the contestants may use any realistic set. This means no silly things like Rain Dance Manaphy. Reasoning is encouraged, but not required.
  7. ChuckHades

    ChuckHades

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Dialga

    The scarf set reliably beats the whole top 5, something none of the others even come close to.
  8. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    It appears that this challenge isn't too popular either. May I ask for feedback from you all as to what you all dislike about the challenge? I wish to see this thread thrive, so please be as brutally honest as you can.

    Also, I shall be accepting challenges from those who wish to enter one. If it's good enough, then I'll naturally give you credit for coming up with the idea.
  9. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,652
    Edit:

    The fun part of this was straying from common sets, and thinking up ways to beat sets, ways to beat those sets, every single scenario, etc. I spent about half an hour considering how Giratina-O would beat Skarmory/Chansey. (Dragon Tail/Calm Mind/Rest/Aura Sphere, or Hidden Power Fire in the Sun). With only common sets being used, it's simple interactions we see on a daily basis when laddering. Hell, i knew Kyogre>Groudon shortly after Ruby and Saphire came out.

    Anyways, allowing in more unconventional stuff leads to a lot more thought, and a lot more controversy and enjoyment. Alternately, more stuff like Gira-A vs. Gira-O, more controversial topics (This one is good TBH), could be good.

    Oh yeah, don't let anyone else post in ubers, so you're always there highlighted near the ubers tier when smogon metagames is clicked.

    Finally, if something like this ever happens again, why not a points system? Then there can be more contestants, and you don't just default to "obvious best" "Obvious worst".

    Double Edit: It's sort of a joke-as long as no one else posts in ubers, you'll lock down the new posts, so anyone who clicks smogon metagames will see this thread as the most popular/newest/whatever. Or you could just have a lot of posts here as well.
  10. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Ah, crap. I forgot that I put yesterday instead of today. My deepest apologies for that.

    Anyways, it appears that Dialga gets immunity again with...um...one vote. Now, I wouldn't do this normally, but should I just scrap the challenge and put something else over instead? Also, what do you all think about how the ruling should be set with the contestants? Should we also remove the realistic sets thing? Ahah, I have so many questions despite being the one in charge for now. ^^'

    By the way, what do you mean with the third part of your post, tehy?



    Alright, new idea! Yes, I'm scrapping the unpopular round. This time, it shall be a mirror match! This means that each contestant will be facing a copy of itself! However, in order to prevent it from being boring, I shall set some restrictions. The restrictions shall be as such:
    No hax! This one is obvious, really. I don't even know why I'm bothering to type this.
    No super effective moves! This means that Giratina-O can't use its STABs, Mewtwo can't use Shadow Ball, etc.
    No similar sets! This means no Bulk Up Dialga with Outrage vs Bulk Up Dialga with Dragon Claw.
    No similar items! This means that no contestant may hold the same item as its mirror match. The only exception is Giratina-O, for obvious reasons.
    No spamming the same attack unless a Choice item is held! I don't know why I'm stating this, but I have a feeling at least one battle would degrade into such a state.

    Now, what are your thoughts on this? If it is good, I shall use it in three days time.
  11. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,316
    ugh... hmmm... im not really sure how this works... ima hafta think on this one...
  12. urdrakonis

    urdrakonis

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    161
    I was planning on writing up a post for the previous scenario but I lost track of time. I'm still having a hard time believing that it's already the 23rd.

    So, the mon that is most likely to succeed against itself? And by mirror match, do you mean the exact same sets?

    Hmm... I can't say the I completely understand this scenario, but I'll make a start.

    My initial thoughts lead me to consider either Mewtwo or Dialga, since they both have access to strong neutral attacks. Both Dialga and Mewtwo can use Ice Beam or Fire Blast, which are the strongest neutral attacks they have access to (off the top of my head).

    Gira-O, on the other hand, relies heavily on its STABs for damage. Gira-O obviously can't use earthquake, and its HP fire will do abysmal damage. So it looks like Stone Edge and Psychic are the only viable options.

    Manaphy's only reliable attack is Psychic.
    --
    Yeah, I'm not liking this one. Seems kinda busted.
  13. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,652
    Edit: So basically here's all the problems with this challenge:

    How are you selecting the mons? Common sets revolve around STABS and SE moves. Randomly selected moves just come down to "Which poke can't 4hitKO itself", and the winner of this lucky lottery gets to Toxic/Rest Stall for the win. If you randomly generate both, it's just a clusterfuck that revolves around who didn't get a move that does significant damage. You could choose the sets, but how? If you just go for "undisputed best", that helps, but... what is the best set, anyhow? This option gives you way too much power over the winner. You could just go simple, Choice sets, LO sets, etc, but i'm not sure that's the best solution (It is one,though).
    We could do it, but then we have the option to go with, say, CB mewtwo, for an easy win. And if we pick too well, we lose. And finally...how do you propose to avoid 'hax' with such potential for speed ties?

    The best solution I see is just to make generic scarf sets, since that mostly gets rid of speed ties and is pretty generic.

    I've got a better idea:Each pokemon squares off against its 3/2 most popular sets. The pokemon that beats them all the hardest, no matter how stupid a set, wins. If both wins are undisputed, then stupidity of set can be factored in, as can crit chances and such. Even though that seems skewed against pokemon weak to their own STABS,it's not THAT bad, all things considered. This combines all the greatest things about Ubers Survivor:It works off of a simple base of knowledge, common sets, and then goes deep down the weirdness rabbit hole, which is where it gets fun.


    I took the liberty of breaking down Zekrom's usable moveset.

    Everything with a lower BP than Return/Psychic without a non-hax way to make up for it is gone. Frustration, Hyper Voice, Echoed Voice, Giga Impact, and Hyper Beam are also gone.(Psychic>Hyper because 10% SpD and Chilan Berry).

    Facade: If Zekrom is Toxic'd, double power. Not sure if that will come into play, but with a stall set, it might.
    Fling: Brutal with an Iron Ball. We might have a winner here-Zekrom doesn't need to win the first speed tie, so why not?
    Focus Blast: With no hax, stronger than Psychic.
    Hone Claws: Zekrom's only way of boosting attack. Breaks stallier sets way harder than Echoed Voice
    Imprison:I'm sure you all can think of a ton of ways to use this.
    Light Screen: In case Zekrom's running specs? Seems like it would prefer Physical, but i don't want to rule this out.
    Protect: Stall and that's about it.
    Psychic:Attack specially without focus blast's miss rate. I'm assumng that a miss rate as high as 30% will be factored in at some point, no hax declaration or not.
    Reflect: A big one. Halve most damage. Zekrom may attack specially just to get around this!
    Rest: Fully heal and reject status. Might be useful for a stall set, but i still doubt that set will exist.
    Return:Zekrom's Strongest Physically attacking option other than Giga Impact.
    Rock Tomb: Does damage and is Zekrom's only way to lower opposing Zekrom's Speed. Could be useful to win 100% of speed ties.
    Safeguard:No real reason to use over Rest/Substitute. I guess it can't be broken and doesn't make you fall asleep,but still.
    Substitute:Blocks status and maybe 2 weaker moves. Not really any good either.
    Swagger:Either he dies... or you do! Considering no hax, this shouldn't even be in here.
    Toxic:Stallier sets will love this-do lots of damage, eventually!

    Edit: Dude, no problem. This is the first time anyone's done anything close to this;so clearly there are going to be some setbacks.
    I think another way is just to randomise 2 popular sets.
  14. polop

    polop
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    811
    I see two mons with some potential.

    Dialga can use a Choice Specs set and 1-2HKO the other Dialga with STAB Draco Meteor. Scarf Dialga cannot OHKO Dialga, while it in return is OHKOed meaning it will loose against it. Support Dialga barely lives a Draco Meteor (6.25%) and cannot OHKO back, so it gets outsped and OHKOed turn 2. The only issue is going against BU + Rest Talk Dialga, in which case you lose if Dialga rests the turn you release your first Draco Meteor. Of course against this set you can spam Dragon Pulses which 3HKO and have a pretty decent chance to 2HKO but... also lol, its the only Dragon that can use STAB Draco Meteor since its not hit Super Effectively by it. This also restricts the other Dialga's movepool so...

    Mewtwo actually also has a very nice chance to win this. With the enemy Mewtwo forced into using Ice Beam / Fire Blast, it can just go Stall Two and Taunt + Recover + Toxic + Light Screen stall, the only problem is going against variants with Trick + Choice item, in which case Mewtwo loses. That and if the other Mewtwo uses Substitute... oh well you still win the pp stall war so you should win.

    I have no idea how Zekrom, Manaphy, and Giratina-O will be hurting each other. Manaphy can use Tail Glow + Rest + Scald and win seeing as that restricts the other Manaphy's movepool X_X. The others will probably have to resort to Toxic + Rest, but this is all stopped by a faster substitute, but at least you win the pp stall war if it comes to it...

    Overall, Dialga has the best chance just because STAB Choice Specs boosted Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse is too strong.
  15. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Basically, what you're saying is that almost the same restrictions but the mirror being the most popular sets over other moves? Like Dialga being restricted against its own main sets' moves against its main set but being able to use moves not on it (such as not being able to use Fire Blast on the mixed attacker, but being able to use Earth Power on it?) Sorry if I'm asking too many questions. >.>
    Also, I appreciate all of you putting up with me. Especially tehy for all the help.

    Alright, so going by that, I'll list an example and an explanation. I'll also change the super effective rule a bit to make it more fair. Moves that would be slashed are decided by a coin flip or die roll.
    Mewtwo@Life Orb
    Pressure
    Timid
    4 HP/252Sp. Atk/252Spe
    Psystrike
    Aura Sphere (coin flip was tails)
    Ice Beam
    Calm Mind

    Now, Mewtwo can go up against this with any item but Life Orb, and is restricted to using moves that aren't any of the listed or Shadow Ball. This means that while Mewtwo can use Recover and Fire Blast, it cannot use Calm Mind and Ice Beam. However, Mewtwo can still run a Timid nature and can run the same EVs. As for the super effective rule change, I'll post another example.

    Dialga@Leftovers
    Pressure
    Quiet (coin flip was tails)
    252HP/56Sp. Atk/200Sp. Def
    Stealth Rock
    Draco Meteor (coin flip was heads)
    Fire Blast
    Dragon Tail (a coin flip was used, since Roar would be useless. It was heads)

    Now, the same rules apply here. Dialga cannot use Leftovers, nor can it use Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, or Dragon Tail. However, since the mirror Dialga has one super effective move, Dialga can use any one super effective move that isn't the one listed. This means that things such as Earthquake or Earth Power can be used, but only in one slot. This means that while it's possible for Dialga to use Earthquake or Brick Break, it's against the rules to use both Earthquake and Brick Break together.

    Finally, regarding moves with 80% and 70% accuracy, how about we say that they miss 1/5 times and 1/3 times, respectively? Meaning the first two (or third and fourth) uses would be a promised hit, but the third (or fifth) use would be a promised miss. Moves such as Fire Blast have a high enough accuracy as is, so it's likely to hit enough in normal battles to just assume it'll hit all the time.
    Does this work, everybody?
  16. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,316
    Yes, I think that could work! Just whoever can beat their most popular set (first on analysis) the most reliably without resorting to haxy crap. Something like this? But having to use moves not on the mirror adds a lot of restrictions = more thought. I like it. :)
  17. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    I meant to do this yesterday, but I got caught up in some real life stuff. Before I list the challenge, the contestants shall be listed as always!

    The Five Contestants:
    [​IMG]
    MEWTWO
    First Introduced: Pokemon Red and Green
    Typing: Psychic
    Fun Fact: Has two movies about himself.
    [​IMG]
    DIALGA
    First Introduced: Pokemon Diamond and Pearl
    Typing: Dragon/Steel
    Fun Fact: Voted most likely to win the competition.
    [​IMG]
    ZEKROM
    First Introduced: Pokemon Black and White
    Typing: Dragon/Electric
    Fun Fact: Had its type spoiled by a Japanese voice actress for his movie before Black and White came out.
    [​IMG]
    MANAPHY
    First Introduced: Pokemon Ranger (as an egg)
    Typing: Water
    Fun Fact: Has been average in every challenge thus far.
    [​IMG]
    GIRATINA-O
    First Introduced: Pokemon Platinum
    Typing: Dragon/Ghost
    Fun Fact: One of the few Pokemon to change its body because of a held item.

    Scenario four point five: This will be a mirror match! Each contestant is restricted to using moves and items not on the mirror they're facing, but can use the same EV spread and nature. The exception to the item rule is Giratina-O, for obvious reasons. No super-effective moves may be used unless the mirror has a super-effective move, and even then they're restricted to using only the same number or less super-effective moves than the mirror. An example is posted below Zekrom for those who wish for one. As previously stated, moves in sets that are slashed will be decided by either a die roll or a coin flip.

    By the way, we shall go under the assumption that there are no crits, that every move above 80% accuracy will always hit, that moves that have exactly 80% accuracy will hit 4 times in a row before missing, and that moves that have 70% accuracy will hit three times in a row before missing. Additional effects will be assumed as never activating (with Scald being an exception, burning the foe on the fourth use), and speed ties will assume that the mirror goes first.

    Dialga
    Show Hide
    Dialga@Leftovers
    Pressure
    Quiet
    252 HP / 56 Sp. Atk / 200 Sp. Def
    Stealth Rock
    Draco Meteor
    Fire Blast
    Dragon Tail

    Dialga@Leftovers
    Pressure
    Careful
    252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Rest
    Sleep Talk
    Bulk Up
    Dragon Claw

    Giratina-O
    Show Hide
    Giratina-O@Griseous Orb
    Modest
    212 HP / 72 Def / 224 SpA
    Calm Mind
    Substitute
    Dragon Pulse
    Shadow Ball

    Giratina-O@Griseous Orb
    Lonely
    248 Atk / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
    Draco Meteor
    Shadow Sneak
    Dragon Tail
    Hidden Power [Fire]

    Manaphy
    Show Hide
    Manaphy@Leftovers
    Timid
    252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Calm Mind
    Rest
    Scald
    Ice Beam

    Manaphy@Leftovers
    Timid
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Tail Glow
    Rest
    Scald
    Ice Beam

    Mewtwo
    Show Hide
    Mewtwo@Life Orb
    Pressure
    Timid
    4 HP /252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe
    Psystrike
    Aura Sphere
    Ice Beam
    Calm Mind

    Mewtwo@Leftovers
    Pressure
    Timid
    252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
    Taunt
    Recover
    Will-O-Wisp
    Light Screen

    Zekrom
    Show Hide
    Zekrom@Life Orb
    Naughty
    104 HP / 148 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
    Bolt Strike
    Draco Meteor
    Outrage
    Volt Switch

    Zekrom@Choice Scarf
    Adamant
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Bolt Strike
    Outrage
    Dragon Claw
    Volt Switch

    Examples and explanations
    Show Hide
    Mewtwo@Life Orb
    Pressure
    Timid
    4 HP/252Sp. Atk/252Spe
    Psystrike
    Aura Sphere (coin flip was tails)
    Ice Beam
    Calm Mind

    Now, Mewtwo can go up against this with any item but Life Orb, and is restricted to using moves that aren't any of the listed or Shadow Ball. This means that while Mewtwo can use Recover and Fire Blast, it cannot use Calm Mind and Ice Beam. However, Mewtwo can still run a Timid nature and can run the same EVs. As for the super effective rule change, I'll post another example.

    Dialga@Leftovers
    Pressure
    Quiet (coin flip was tails)
    252HP/56Sp. Atk/200Sp. Def
    Stealth Rock
    Draco Meteor (coin flip was heads)
    Fire Blast
    Dragon Tail (a coin flip was used, since Roar would be useless. It was heads)

    Now, the same rules apply here. Dialga cannot use Leftovers, nor can it use Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, or Dragon Tail. However, since the mirror Dialga has one super effective move, Dialga can use any one super effective move that isn't the one listed. This means that things such as Earthquake or Earth Power can be used, but only in one slot. This means that while it's possible for Dialga to use Earthquake or Brick Break, it's against the rules to use both Earthquake and Brick Break together.



    As per usual, voting for immunity will begin on Monday, January 28th, at 6 P.M. EST. Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves on which contestant gets immunity until then.
  18. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,652
    So just to clarify, before get into this-is one set supposed to fight both, or is the bottom set squaring off against the top? Edit:Or can you pick one or the other?

    Also, nice challenge, and i like how the accuracy's been worked out. And now i also like how the speed tie's been solved, so nice one there. Luckily the only high % secondary effect will probably be neutralised by Hydration, and is a burn on a specially based pokemon.

    Also, I'm noticing that Manaphy's at a heavy (Edit:Actually advantage.). Luckily, it can't hit itself super effectively, but even with that said, it's still got Heart Swap, as well as Calm Mind+Neutral move. The Tail Glow set is probably destroyed by a bulky CM set, although the CM set might turn out to be unbreakable without Heart Swap, or something odd. (Does Manaphy learn Sunny Day? That might be helpful)

    As for Mewtwo, the second set actually neatly takes care of the top one, so we just need to repurpose it a tad. Max Speed Timid and HP are good, and Will-O-Wisp can be replaced by either Psychic, or maybe Toxic.

    Edit: Ugh, i just realised the opponent goes first, so lame there. So the best Mewtwo set for the first would be, say, 252 HP/ 88 Def/ 172 SpD with a Bold nature. Toxic/Recover/Light Screen/Power Swap with Leftovers. Toxic the first turn, Light Screen the second. Mewtwo should probably be able to tank a +1 Fire Blast/Psystrike, then another after Light Screen's down and Recover, although if he isn't, Light Screen should go up first. If the enemy's Mewtwo starts boosting heavily, that could be problematic, which is hopefully where Power Swap comes in. Some heavy calcs need running there, but it seems to be pretty good so far. Even if you have to Light Screen first, Mewtwo ought to be able to hold out for the six turns necessary for Toxic to finish off its foe (Sans LO recoil, which very well might happen). Mewtwo might need Light Clay for this set too.

    The second set's beaten by Mental Herb Mewtwo. Toxic/Safeguard/Rest/Psystrike@Mental Herb, 252 Spe/252 SpA/ 4 Hp Timid. The first turn, Mewtwo Safeguards, and then he Toxics. After that, Mewtwo can just Psystrike away until Safeguard fades. If the mirror managed to get in a Taunt before Safeguard faded, you'll need to Psytrike until you can Rest. Then just Psystrike until the mirror goes down.

    Edit: Yeah, thanks for the move help, i decided to just open another tab with his moveset, which was pretty helpful. I think Mewtwo's got immunity on lockdown, but i'll let some other people chime in on other pokemon first and see what they've got to say.
  19. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    The contestants can fight either set, or both. It's your decision on which one it is. However, they are not restricted to a single set for both battles if you choose to have them battle both. As for additional effects and such, I edited my post to include those. The effects will never activate, and the mirror will move first to mimic the AI's abuse of luck in-game.

    As for Manaphy, go under the assumption that your opponent knows that you have Heart Swap, or they at least expect you to. It would make it much more interesting than grabbing the Tail Glow boost on the first turn or Calm Mind boost on turn five or whatever. Also, it does not learn Sunny Day.

    Mewtwo does not learn Magic Coat.
  20. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    cb dialga beats both of the top dialgas or mixed dialga

    16 speed ev giratina-o wins

    sub / swagger / heart swap / giga impact manaphy wins too i think!

    252 speed toxic / protect / fireblast / rest mewtwo wins

    haban berry zekrom wins

    out of all these choices i think dialga's variants that win are the most useful in practice

    edit: oh oops im dumb i fixed it
  21. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Something I've noticed with Dialga is that it knows Metal Burst. While there are certainly other, more reliable, options, Dialga could use it against the first set. Not so much the second set, due to Bulk Up being a setup move.
  22. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
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    So, just to clarify SSBM, how does 16 spe evs Giratina-O beat both sets?

    The second one can hit it in the face with a meteor+Sneak, while our Gira can only Outrage once. Can it be Ev'd to survive both hits and 2hitko, or are you planning to use Rest/Restalk?

    You can probably stomp the first set's facehole off,though.

    Edit: Oh snap, i thought that would do a little less. *Shrugs*

    So Mewtwo may actually lose, since it can't beat both sets at once. (unless you set beats Psycho killer, but it seems like if Psycho killer boosts enough, it can score an OHKO.)
  23. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    1,019
    clean ohko w outrage

    100.7% - 118.8%
  24. Daggerfall

    Daggerfall

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
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    68
    Voting for immunity will being now and will continue until Thursday, January 31st, at 6 P.M. EST! Votes must be in bold or they will not count. Reasoning is encouraged, but not required.

    Regardless of how few votes I get, I won't cancel this challenge or any future challenges. So don't withhold voting because you want to see a new challenge -- avoid voting if you don't like it and tell me what you don't like. I can't please everybody, but I'll try to make it as universally liked as possible.
  25. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
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    1,652
    I'm going to go with Giratina-O on this one. Seeing as it's about equal with Zekrom and Manaphy, i'm going to go ahead and bring luck into the equation. Zekrom can be critted and Manaphy can miss all of its Swaggers. CB Dialga can probably also be critted (I doubt it OHKO's, but i could be wrong once more), so Gira-O wins because it just about 100% stomps one set, and the other probably can't even OHKO with a crit (Even if it does, that's just 1/2 sets capable of doing so).

    Edit: Yeah i remember the rule, but i needed a tiebreaker-they all dominate thoroughly to the point where they just about can't lose. So I figured, well, it's either that, or argue about which set is more viable (probably Gira-O's as well to be honest.) I didn't feel like doing the latter, so *Shrug*.

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