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Ubers X&Y Fantasy II: Dual Attack Boogaloo! UPDATE: DUAL STAB NOW ALLOWED!

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Theorymon, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    [​IMG]Ubers X&Y Fantasy[​IMG]

    Hey lets face it, all metagames start to get a bit boring when a new generation approaches. Wouldn't it be nice to get some substantial Gen 6 info? Well too bad, Gamefreak doesn't play that way! So instead, I've decided to start a fun thread series to keep us occupied!

    This is the Ubers X&Y Fantasy series! Every 1-2 weeks (depending on activity of the thread), I will propose an outlandish, earth shattering mechanical change of sorts, one that would dramatically change aspects of the Ubers metagame. The goal here is simple: use your knowledge of our current Ubers metagame, to theorize just how these unlikely mechanical changes would change Ubers! This can be done by pointing out individual buffed Pokémon, how unchanged standards would handle this metagame, how this would effect current trends in the metagame, you name it. As long as you post intelligently, you've made a good contribution to this thread!

    When this thread is near its end, I will post an online poll, so you guys can also choose the next topic for this series! Make sure to PM or VM me ideas for the poll! Bringing them up on #Pokemon is fine too!

    Episode 2: Dual Attack Boogaloo!

    Well, you guys voted, and turns out, we are doing another thread about an aspect of the Pokebeach rumor! This time though, things are not quite as specific as the Fairy type rumor. All Pokebeach said was "there will be dual typed attacks". That doesn't actually say much! So below is my own interpretation of it. Note that if Gamefreak officially confirms Dual Type attacks, and the mechanics vary widely from this thread, I don't mind making an exception to the rule, and closing this thread to make a new thread based on accurate mechanics!

    1. Immunities override everything. So that means that Tyranitar is now immune to Aura Sphere, despite it being 4x weak to Fighting.

    2. \GUESS WHAT? Double STAB now happens in this thread! Except it won't be a 1.5x1.5 boost. Instead, Dual STAB will just be a 2x boost! Sorta like adaptability.

    3. Here's how resistances will work in this thread.

    3A. Against Steel-types like Dialga, Aura Sphere would be neutral, since while it's weak to Fighting, it also resists Psychic! However, Metagross and Jirachi are 4x resistance to it, since they are neutral to Fighting, but 4x resist Psychic!

    3B. Vs Pokémon who resist both Fighting and Psychic (like Mewtwo), they will 4x resist it! And if you got a mon that 4x resists Fighting and 2x resists Psychic, its a 8x resist. While if there was a mon that somehow 4x resists both typings, the mon freaking 16x resists the move! For the opposite direction, just reverse the outcomes: aka a mon that is both 4x weak to Psychic and 4x weak to Fighting gets screwed over by a 16x weak.

    3C. Finally, 4x weaks to fighting that resist Psychic like Aggron are now 2x weak to Aura Sphere, since while Fighting is still 4x against Rock / Steel, the Psychic resists from steel downgrade it to 2x.

    Here is the list of hypothetical Dual Typed attacks. I'll list them by their original typing, and have their new dual counterpart right next to them. Like last time, I based most of these on flavor, but some of them have been BSed a little for discussion purposes! Also, you will notice no Fairy type attacks. I will add them in once everything about how Fairy effects the type chart offensively is confirmed!

    One final note, if discussion gets boring, I may change some typings of moves / add some more, just to spice things up!

    Bug-type attacks (open)

    Bug Bite = Dark
    Fury Cutter = Fighting
    Pin Missile = Poison
    Signal Beam = Psychic
    Silver Wind = Flying
    Twin Needle = Poison
    U-turn = Fighting

    Dark-type attacks (open)

    Beat Up = Fighting
    Bite = Normal
    Faint Attack = Fighting
    Sucker Punch = Fighting (yes I know the Japanese name is Ambush, I don't care!)

    Dragon-type attacks (open)

    Dragon Breath = Fire
    Dual Chop = Fighting
    Roar Of Time = Steel
    Spacial Rend = Water
    Twister = Flying

    Electric-type attacks (open)

    Electroweb = Bug
    Fusion Bolt = Dragon
    Thunder = Water
    Thunder Fang = Dark
    ThunderPunch = Fighting
    Volt Tackle = Fighting

    Fighting-type attacks (open)

    Aura Sphere = Psychic
    Drain Punch = Bug
    Focus Blast = Psychic
    Karate Chop = Normal
    Sky Uppercut = Flying

    Fire-type attacks (open)

    Blaze Kick = Fighting
    Eruption = Rock
    Fiery Dance = Flying
    Fire Fang = Dark
    Fire Punch = Fighting
    Fusion Flare = Dragon
    Heat Wave = Flying
    Lava Plume = Rock

    Flying-type attacks (open)

    Acrobatics = Fighting
    Bounce = Water
    Hurricane = Water
    Pluck = Dark
    Wing Attack = Normal

    Ghost-type attacks (open)

    Hex = Dark
    Lick = Poison
    Ominous Wind = Flying
    Shadow Force = Dragon
    Shadow Punch = Fighting

    Grass-type attacks (open)

    Absorb = Bug
    Giga Drain = Bug
    Horn Leech = Bug
    Leaf Blade = Fighting
    Leaf Tornado = Flying
    Magical Leaf = Psychic
    Mega Drain = Bug
    Needle Arm = Fighting
    Petal Dance = Dragon
    Power Whip = Fighting
    SolarBeam= Fire

    Ground-type attacks (open)

    Bone Club = Fighting
    Bone Rush = Fighting
    Bonemerang = Fighting
    Drill Run = Steel
    Mud Bomb = Water
    Mud Shot = Water
    Mud Slap = Water
    Sand Tomb = Fire

    Ice-type attacks (open)

    Aurora Beam = Electric
    Avalanche = Rock
    Blizzard = Flying
    Freeze Shock = Electric
    Glaciate = Dragon
    Ice Burn = Fire
    Ice Fang = Dark
    Ice Punch = Fighting
    Icy Wind = Flying
    Powder Snow = Flying

    Normal-type attacks (open)

    Comet Punch = Fighting
    Dizzy Punch = Fighting
    Double Slap = Fighting
    Facade = Dark
    Hyper Fang = Dark
    Mega Kick = Fighting
    Mega Punch = Fighting
    Pay Day = Dark
    Thrash = Dragon
    Uproar = Dragon

    Poison-type attacks (open)

    Clear Smog = Ground
    Poison Fang = Dark
    Poison Jab = Fighting
    Poison Sting = Bug
    Poison Tail = Dragon
    Sludge Bomb = Water
    Sludge Wave = Water

    Psychic-type attacks (open)

    Dream Eater = Dark
    Luster Purge = Dragon
    Mist Ball = Dragon
    Psycho Cut = Fighting

    Rock-type attacks (open)

    Power Gem = Psychic
    Rock Slide = Fighting
    Smack Down = Fighting

    Steel-type attacks (open)

    Bullet Punch = Fighting
    Doom Desire = Psychic
    Iron Tail = Dragon
    Magnet Bomb = Electric
    Meteor Mash = Fighting
    Steel Wing = Flying

    Water-type attacks (open)

    Aqua Tail = Dragon
    Brine = Poison
    Crabhammer = Bug
    Muddy Water = Ground
    Octazooka = Poison
    Razor Shell = Fighting
    Scald = Fire (this means that Scald doesn't get boosted by any weather, it will be 60 BP in Rain or Sun due to 1.5 boost divided by 2!)
    AJC likes this.
  2. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    Just a note guys, please don't bring Fairy speculation into this yet, leave that to the thread about fairies. So, assume that Fairies aren't immune to Dragons (for the purpose of this thread). Only bring it up when that stuff is 100% confirmed!

    Despite that though, I can see Dragon typed dual attacks being a bit of a problem in Spacial Rend's case. With Thunder being part water too, Palkia in general is going to have a harder time with Kyogre. I guess Palkia could still use Dragon Pulse...

    EDIT: I was very wrong about Palkia vs Kyogre, see my post below!
  3. trickroom

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Sep 13, 2009
    I think Bug Bite being part Dark-type makes Forretress want to use Bug Bite even more, because now it OHKOes(Custap set) or deals major damage to both Latias and Mewtwo. The sad news is Forretress cannot hit Darkrai for super-effective damage :[

    Dual Chop also suddenly becomes a great tool for getting rid of Tyranitar, even sash ones and Air Balloon Excadrill lol. Sadly the only user of that move in Ubers is Garchomp. It does not seem useful though because Garchomp can simply Earthquake Tyranitar and smack Air Balloon Excadrill with Fire Fang. Roar of Time being a Steel-type isn't great all, except now Dialga has a move to OHKO Tyranitar and Rock Arceus! Kyogre, Ho-Oh and Ferrothorn will laugh at it even more. Also, Reshiram and Zekrom are now neutral to the move :[ Draco Meteor will still be the superior choice.

    Spacial Rend as a Water-type attack means Gastrodon will wall Palkia easily, it is immune to both STABs, Thunder and laughs at Fire Blast. Kyogre can now freely come in on Palkia as well because Thunder no longer hits super-effective damage with that new Water-type. Dragon Pulse just doesn't do enough damage to Kyogre :[ not even a 3HKO. Oh Theorymon already clarified Palkia does better vs Kyogre now but Specs Ice Beam is still a 2HKO so Kyogre wins one-on-one.

    Fusion Bolt as part Dragon won't do anything special, except for Jirachi and Steel Arceus resisting the move lol. I guess you can spam it to hit Palkia for the OHKO easily without getting locked, it is stronger than Dragon Claw :D

    Focus Blast becoming Psychic means Darkrai is immune to the move :( and now Darkrai walls Darkrai. Dialga no longer fears Focus Blast as well.

    I don't like Hurricane becoming a Water-type move, it makes many common rain pokemon resist it :[ Kyogre, Kingdra, Palkia, Ferrothorn, Dialga and Gastrodon is now immune to that move. It just makes spamming Hurricane a lot harder :[ Although I guess it hits Tyranitar neutral damage now and rips Groudon if you hit. Although Hurricane now becomes boosted by rain, it also gets a lot more resists :[

    Bounce as part Water-type is actually pretty sad for Gyarados, the only notable user of such move. Ferrothorn, Dialga, Grass Arceus and even Ludicolo will laugh at that move now :[ It does have some advantages though, as it frees up a moveslot to use an extra coverage move like Earthquake. Water/Flying Bounce only hits those Heatran, Tyranitar, Excadrill and Rock Arceus for neutral damage now :[

    Shadow Force being Dragon/Ghost makes it more impressive, as now you can OHKO Giratina :D With Dragon-type, Shadow Force rips through any Dragon-type, although Dialga is only neutral to it sadly. Steel is the only typing that resists both anyway :P

    Blizzard as a Flying-move means Abomasnow is weak to Blizzard lol, and it will fare worse against Kyogre now. Avalanche as a Rock-type move means Fire-types won't like switching in. Reshiram and Ho-Oh are both hit super-effectively but the only user I can take of using that move is Gyarados and Mamoswine :[ Rayquaza will also be easily OHKOed.

    Rock Slide will no longer OHKO Ho-Oh :[ Metoer Mash can be used to 2HKO Ferrothorn now though and rips Arceus, making Metagross a decent check to Earthquake-less ones.
  4. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    Oh snap, I just realized something I was VERY wrong about. Turns out, Electric / Water Thunder from Palkia does MORE to Kyogre than regular Thunder due to STAB, Rain, and nuetrality... meanwhile, Kyogre's Thunder is now 4x resisted by Palkia due to it being part water... thus, Palkia does better vs Kyogre now!

    However, on another note, Thundurus isn't actually super fond of this change like Palkia is. Thundurus's Thunder now actually does LESS than it used to. Since Thundurus had STAB and SE vs Kyogre, it was 360 BP, but now its 270 BP. This means that LO Thundurus sadly loses the KO after SR for min HP Kyogre, you'll need Thunderbolt to do that consistently. And of course, now max HP Kyogre will survive anything you throw at it. On the bright side, Thundurus-T can still OHKO min HP Kyogre after SR with Thunder!
  5. Darknesscrusher


    Jan 28, 2013
    Oof... Palkia's Spacial Rend is now neutral against tons of other dragons, and even resisted by Dialga. Ferrothorn takes only .25 damage from both Thunder and Spacial Rend.

    Scald looks cool, seeing that it now hits Ferrothorn for SE damage, which might even make Specs Kyogre run it over Surf.

    U-Turn seems amazing aswell, hitting tons of stupid steels for nice damage. Psycho Cut gets nerfed by giving Ghosts a free switch in.
  6. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    So actually, Scald is screwed quite a bit. The boost from Rain doesn't counteract getting halved by rain since its part Fire, thus its now always 60 BP (not including stab) in the Rain and Sun (1.5 times 80 is 120, 120 divided by 2 is 60). However, Scarf Scald still does 46.02 - 54.54% to Ferrothorn, and Specs still 2HKOs, so it could still see some use I guess. Also, Scald does more to Groudon in the Sun than Surf does, and does as much as Hydro Pump in the sun. Defensive Kyogre sets aren't going to like this though!

    Make sure you think about your posts, even I have gotten things wrong twice so far!
  7. Darknesscrusher


    Jan 28, 2013
    Isn't Thunder resist twice? Water VS Dragon/Water= .25 and Electric VS Dragon/Water=1.
  8. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    Just going to talk a bit about some of the various significant nerfs/buffs

    Bug Bite = Dark: Forretress gets Payback again.

    U-turn = Fighting: This is more a nerf than a buff. Sure it hits stuff like Ferrothorn for SE damage but now Mewtwo/Latios/Latias take neutral damage and ghost types are immune. That's bad news for just about everybody who used this move.

    Sucker Punch = Fighting: Toxicroak/Bisharp/Honchkrow are buffed and hurt. It has some cool coverage stuff but, again, Ghosts being immune (like GhostArc) hurts the whole niche of having a Dark type STAB.

    Dual Chop = Fighting: Garchomp is cooler now, not too bothered by the Ghost immunity. (can use Outrage if he is)

    Spacial Rend = Water: This hurts Palkia more than anything. He didn't need this at all and it just hurts his coverage options against Dragon types. The only use it has is on a Scarf set as an alternative cleaning option. (Surf/Thunder if more steels left, Rend is more Dragons left)

    Fusion Bolt = Dragon: Gives Zekrom another coverage cleaning move to spam when he wants to hit healthy Ogres and Dragon types as well as a lone Skarm or something. Not really a big deal, though.

    Thunder = Water: Wow, this is pretty big for things like Ogre and Palkia. Most has already been pointed out although it means that Palkia really struggles with Grass/Dragon types now. (well, it has to run Dpulse to beat them which is a loss as Rend gave it some cool 2HKOs. good news overall I guess)

    Aura Sphere/Focus Blast = Psychic: Nerfs a lot of things that relied on these things to hit Steel types. Mewtwo is now vulnerable to Tyranitar so EQ might rise as a 4th coverage move. (2HKOs Rachi as well so not bad)

    Fusion Flare = Dragon: Pretty good for Reshiram as he can now spam a Sun boosted attack that does neutral damage to Dragon types.

    Lava Plume = Rock: The new Scald, Groudon and Heatran are loving this thing.

    Acrobatics = Fighting: I guess this helps some physical flying type sets? (like BU Tornadus) Not really a big deal otherwise.

    Bounce = Water: Sharpedo likes this as most of the things with Thunder resist water anyways. At least he has a STAB attack that is boosted by Rain and does neutral damage to Grassceus. (Rockceus is a bad more annoying now but that's not a big deal)

    Hurricane = Water: This does funny things to the Tornadus family. For the most part, though, it hurts them as Flying alone had really nice neutral coverage which is now ruined by all the Water resists in the metagame. They didn't need the double STAB from Rain, they were strong enough as it was before. (this and the U-turn nerf really messes with the poor genies)

    Giga Drain = Bug: Now Chloromons like Venusaur can hit other Grass types and LatiTwins for neutral damage.

    Leaf Blade/Power Whip = Fighting: Chloro mons get a neutral hits on Steel types and is SE against Ferrothorn. They only really miss out on Ghostarc with this.

    Petal Dance = Dragon: A bit more usable now that all the Dragon types don't resist it. Still screwed by Steel types and others.

    Bullet Punch = Fighting: Let's Scizor hit Steel types for neutral damage which isn't bad. The ghost types were either removed by Toxic or a wall to it anyways.

    Aqua Tail = Dragon: Gyarados likes having this to hit other Dragon types with a Rain boosted attack. Might make the SubDD set somewhat viable.

    Razor Shell = Fighting: Cloyster is as happy as a clam (hahahahahah) since now it can use this attack for SE damage against Steel types and not just Rain boosted neutral.

    Scald = Fire: Ruined.
  9. tehy

    tehy Banned deucer.

    Aug 16, 2010
    Well, Lava Plume is now a nice way for Heatran to mess up Ho-oh; i Believe it hits 360 power with Sun, its preferred weather, up, so that'll let it get Ho-oh good without resorting to, say, Stone Edge. Also SE on Lugia, which can kind of wall it. And just nice for other fire-types in general, I suppose. (if only Reshiram got it, a semi-strong fire STAB that ho-oh can't switch in on and lol at, plus still has 30% burn chance? That sounds useful as hell for it). And Eruptiontran is no longer walled by Ho-oh, assuming anyone would ever bother to use it.

    Sucker punch is fighting, so my condolences to any sweeper weak to fighting, as they are now revenged by 3 different priority moves! (One has shit distribution, true, but still.) On the bright side, Psychics aren't weak to it any more, specifically Mewtwo. This also weakens Sucker Punch+pursuit trapping combos, although those don't really exist here in Ubers.

    The interesting thing about Psychic Aura Sphere is that, even though it really messes with Mewtwo vs darks and such, it now can function as Mewtwo's STAB, potentially freeing up moveslots. Since it's also SE against the blobs, some sets might choose to drop Psystrike for it. That would be interesting to see. (Also, ring target trick might become a thing on it? That or HP fight is now its only way to break TTar and deal with other darks)
  10. Enguarde

    Enguarde I only play ADV UU
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 8, 2012
    I quite like scald potentially being Fire/Water since it certainly nerfs it for water types due to fire types now taking neutral damage from it, and that Rain boosted scalds will no longer be as scary in terms of damage regardless of gaining a burn chance, and the risk/reward play which sometimes coerces people into staying in against an unfavourable matchup just for the relatively high burn chance, (which is what makes Scald such horrible mvoe for the game in my opinion) will decrease dramatically. Which means you'll really have to think harder on choosing the trade off between a strong water move in Surf and weak 60bp with a chance of burn.
  11. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Banned deucer.

    Jan 26, 2011
    Or you just run it in Sand. :>
  12. justinjiaxinghu


    Dec 15, 2012
    I sense Arceus-Ghost wrecking Dragons with Shadow Force now.

    Poor Scald. Now RestTalk Kyogre with Scald wont be doing much damage.

    The thing that interests me most though is Power Whip. Ferrothorn does decent damage to Arceus-Normal already (Power Whip: 27.82 - 33.07%) but with the Fighting typing, it has a chance to 2HKO, and even if it doesn't, it would do some serious damage anyway.
  13. Furai

    Furai we will become who we are meant to be
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    May 4, 2010
    Ghost / Dark Hex: SPINNING ANYONE? This move got really ridiculous now rofl Tentacruel can actually leave some damage on the spinblockers with Toxic + Hex now, lol.

    0 SpA Tentacruel Hex (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 204-244 (45.94 - 54.95%) -- 62.11% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Tentacruel Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 156-184 (31.01 - 36.58%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    0 SpA Tentacruel Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 240-284 (47.71 - 56.46%) -- 84.38% chance to 2HKO

    With Protect + Rain Dish + Black Sludge Tentacruel can also get its lost HP really quickly. If there is a single layer of Toxic Spikes down even Mewtwo isn't safe to switch in - 264-312 (74.57 - 88.13%) - 6.25% to OHKO after SR! A set of Toxic / Hex / Rapid Spin / Protect with Scald slashed somewhere would be fairly strong. The Giratina formes also enjoy this buffed Hex:

    252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (100 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Groudon: 204-240 (56.5 - 66.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    0 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 516-612 (116.21 - 137.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Giratina Hex (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 372-436 (83.78 - 98.19%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Also if this move is real I'm the first one to approve Scarf Gengar again n_n

    252 SpA Gengar Hex (100 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 372-444 (83.78 - 100%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Gengar Hex (50 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo: 360-424 (101.69 - 119.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Water / Fight Razor Shell: Cloyster will no longer need to rely on the blind Hydro Pump to get past Heatran or Steel Arceus! That would be such a serious buff and would undoubtly make Cloyster more of a threat. Missing out on Ghosts isn't much of a problem either as Icicle Spear just KOes them all or leaves a huge dent 9.9

    I have a list of more things I want to talk about but for now I'll leave you guys with this! Gotta say that if Hex turns up to be the real deal I'm gonna abuse the fuck out of it 9.9
  14. Shiruba


    Mar 1, 2013
    Ghost/Dark Hex does sound pretty exciting, especially since T-Spikes would be instantly more viable [and can I get some Venoshock abuse in the house?] That said, Excadrill'd probably see more usage due to x4 resisting Hex, and being immune to Venoshock - though Tenta could theoretically run Scald, I guess, it'd have 4MSS, competing with Hex and Venoshock for an attacking move along with the other three moves [though Toxic could be eschewed, I suppose]. Still an interesting theory, though.

    Because of that, I could also see Arceus-Poison on the rise for soaking up Toxic Spikes - I'd be kinda excited for that, tbh. I really like Arceus-Poison; never really used it, but... I'unno. Seems like it'd be neat. It also hits Faerie super-effectively, so there's that. Poison isn't that bad for neutral coverage, either...

    Steel types'd rise due to the Faerie type, but it'd be even moreso now. Perhaps Kyogre could have a rival in Dialga as one of the most useful Pokemon in the tier? Perhaps Genesect, too, would get its own piece of glory, especially with the new event Genesect coming out soon.
  15. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    Oh thank GOD Smogon is back, now I don't get sad looking at the color purple! Now of course, since Smogon suffered an attack, I'm going to extend the life of this thread, so the next XY Fantasy thread won't be here this week. That being said, there is a new twist now to keep discussion fresh after this recovery: Dual STAB IS NOW IN!

    I have made it so Dual STAB isn't a 1.5 x 1.5 boost though. Instead, its a 2x boost. Sorta like adaptability! This will certainly change the course of discussion, but how? I recommend providing damage calcs btw, those help make things interesting!
    AJC likes this.
  16. Shiruba


    Mar 1, 2013
    Dat Blaze Kick on Blaziken, though.

    With Blaze Kick in its arsenal, it trades a little bit of power and accuracy [90% accuracy and 170 base power after double STAB] for no recoil damaged and a heightened critical hit rate - as such, I can see it being the primary slash on its main set. That said, Flare Blitz would still see usage for slightly more power and no chance to miss, I'm sure, as well as pure fire being advantageous in certain situations [beating the abundant Psychic types, for example - I guess you could replace Hi Jump Kick with Blaze Kick but ehhhhh]. It also loses to Giratina even harder but w/e.

    With that, too, I can see Shadow Claw becoming more popular to deal with the psychics and ghosts. Still, I feel that Blaze Kick'd be a powerful tool for gen 6 Blaziken.
  17. Darknesscrusher


    Jan 28, 2013
    Shadow Force Giratina-O could get intresting with this buff to it, but get's absolutly screwed over by Steel types.
  18. Shiruba


    Mar 1, 2013
    Giratina wasn't exactly hitting steels that hard with Shadow Force anyway - it's got a myriad of other options for that, like Hidden Power Fire, Aura Sphere, and Earthquake. Shadow Force is also no longer resisted by Dialga, and Excadrill's defence stat is a lowly 60 - though, admittedly, it does have good HP. Not much would be switching into that 240 BP [not counting Griseous Orb, as I'm not sure if it'd boost 20% or 40%] attack unless they're a defensive behemoth or downright immune to it, especially since it smashes through Protect. I don't see too much Giratina-O [usually Giratina-A], but I think it'd be used more if only due to the sheer power of Shadow Force. That said, Extremekiller can switch in with impunity - a big problem - and it's even worse if the defender predicts the Shadow Force and can thus set up a Swords Dance in your face. Still, seems like it'd be pretty good.
  19. Theorymon

    is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jan 14, 2009
    Not related to Dual STAB, but this calc surprised me

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 361-429 (89.35 - 106.18%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    God damn, this is pretty brutal. Aqua Tail sounds like a good deal on Rayquaza with Air Lock!
  20. Furai

    Furai we will become who we are meant to be
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    May 4, 2010
    muddy water: so there's obviously just a single pokemon viable in ubers that the dual stab change affects it: - gastrodon. it actually gets p strong with the 2x boost:
    +1 0 SpA Adaptability Gastrodon Muddy Water vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Steel in rain: 492-580 (111.06 - 130.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 0 SpA Adaptability Gastrodon Muddy Water vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in sun: 204-244 (50.49 - 60.39%) -- 84.38% chance to 2HKO
    obviously though bring part ground is gonna hinder its effectiveness by missing out on lati@s, giratina-o, rayquaza, etc. scald may be worth keeping for spreading burns, but this one might actually be useful! muddy water on kyogre, while not getting the dual stab :(, provides a p nice way to beat dialga:
    0 SpA Kyogre Muddy Water vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga in rain: 180-213 (44.55 - 52.72%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    it misses out on ho-oh and on tina-o which is p big, but kyogre has water / elec thund for ho-oh and still has ice beam for tina-o, so i guess it all compensates. again, the burn is often really good so it's p much up to you: burn or accuracy drops!

    iron tail / aqua tail: this got really really cool if you want to break through special walls w/ dialga and palkia like chansey, but those are p rare nowadays.. it would be a nice buff though, i'd use it. these walls can be real annoyances to take down especially if played well. luring them w/ dialga and palkia and then just smashing with tails to open the path for some other sweeper such as darkrai or an arceus forme would be pretty devastating for stall teams. still resisted by kyogre though :(

    blaze kick: shiruba summed it up so well, i'm just going to leave this here: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Blaziken Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon in sun: 390-460 (96.53 - 113.86%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    HEX: my love and joy of this project. ubers is known for being almost impossible to spin at: we have the bulkiest and the hardest hitting ghosts in the entire game. a move 4x effective on those would be such a drastic change and that's why im most excited about it. i already covered ones w/o dual stab earlier so now i'll relate to just spiritomb and sableye.

    0 SpA Adaptability Sableye Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 352-416 (69.98 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Adaptability Sableye Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 264-312 (52.48 - 62.02%) -- 96.48% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Adaptability Sableye Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 408-488 (81.11 - 97.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Adaptability Sableye Hex (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 352-416 (79.27 - 93.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    0 SpA Adaptability Spiritomb Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Giratina: 456-544 (90.65 - 108.15%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Adaptability Spiritomb Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 344-408 (68.38 - 81.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Adaptability Spiritomb Hex (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 544-640 (108.15 - 127.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 SpA Adaptability Spiritomb Hex (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 456-544 (102.7 - 122.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    soooooo basically the giratina forms are beaten no matter what as even with rest hex doubles. spiritomb is at a higher risk due to lack of reliable recovery but all 3 have gigantic HP stats so pain split will work well. ghost arc is beaten by tspikes + recover /pain split stalling. spiritomb might need to use shadow sneak to pick off weakened ghostceus (not sucker punch because theorymon nerfed it!) all in all the calcs really speak for themselves, and if this comes to be true expect to see that on every one of my teams. (ps. if they get evolutions they utilize eviolite so well!!)
  21. Theorymon

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    Jan 14, 2009
    Yeah, this thread has been way deader than it should have been. I'm going to close this in a few days if it keeps being dead, so hurry up and discuss if you want to talk about dual type attacks!

    On that note, I have some things to say myself!

    Blaze Kick: I think you guys are actually really overhyping this on Blaziken! Blaze Kick is REALLY hard to fit in anywhere. You can't fit it in if you have Swords Dance or Roar. If you replace Low Kick or Hi Jump Kick, Kyogre beats you, and that's a major bummer, because part of the reason Blaziken works is because it can hit Kyogre switch-ins really hard, or if you have a Swords Dance, plow right through it! Replacing Flare Blitz doesn't really work out either, because now, Giratina-O is immune to it, and Latias 4x resists it. Not to mention that Lugia resists it now. I mean, Giratina-O is a problem anyways, but at least +2 Flare Blitz can hit it really hard. Not getting past Latias is a huge problem too! I think the best use of Blaze Kick would be it replacing Swords Dance, since it gets you less recoil than Flare Blitz. Losing out on phazing or setting up is a bummer though!

    That being said, there is one mon in particular that I think would like Blaze Kick becoming part fighting: Genesect! (btw, someone needs to get that implemented on Showdown) Dialga has been a problem for Genesect for quite a while now, and with Blaze Kick, Genesect can hit it really hard now! With sun support, +1 physically based Scarf Genesect will deal 83-98%: a 31.25% to OHKO after Stealth Rock! Of course, this means that Life Orb and Choice Band Genesect will actually destroy Dialga in the sun now! Just note, in an odd twist, you will actually do less to offensive Dialga due to uninvested Dialga having more Defense than Special Defense. For example, even min HP Dialga with a -Def nature only takes 73-86%. Still though, even being able to consistently 2HKO Dialga in the sun is a pretty nice improvement! The only major loss I can see is that you cant hit Ghost Arceus with a move that's a bit stronger than Iron Head in the sun anymore.

    Fusion Flare: Speaking of Fire moves, I'm sorta interested in the thought of Dragon / Fire Fusion Flare. It gives White Kyurem a nice, strong Dragon STAB in the sun (though Kyogre and Ho-Oh are gonna laugh at it). In fact, it's more powerful than a Draco Meteor in the sun! Reshiram makes it really interesting though. With Dual STAB, you have a 300 base power fire move in the sun. That's actually more than Blue Flare! While missing the super effectiveness vs Steel is sorta annoying, most Steels are probably going to get knocked on their asses by this anyways. I can still see Blue Flare being good filler, but Fusion Flare could actually be better now. An extra 30 BP isn't a game changer for Reshiram, but its certainly a step in the right direction.

    Fusion Bolt: This is sorta like the opposite of Fusion Flare in some ways. For Zekrom, I can only see Fusion Bolt being decent filler. Bolt Strike is still going to be better, as Fusion Bolt is actually resisted by a bunch of Steels, and Ferrothorn has a nasty 4x resist against it. That being said, it will be an electric move that hurts Dragon switch-ins rather nicely, so I can still see there being a place for this on say, Choice Band (and maybe Choice Scarf too). Black Kyurem though... poor bastard, that thing needs buffs, not nerfs! Now it has even more problems with Steels :(

    Anyways, regardless of whether or not this thread closes soon, I want you guys to start PMing me poll ideas for the next thread soon! I might choose less complicated ones this time too, since this thread isn't nearly as popular as the Fairy thread (which is still open btw since Fairy got confirmed, feel free to post there!)

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