Metagame Ultimate Z

Alright, I'll take up The Immortal on their challenge and try to lay out an on it's face case for why Conversion should be banned. As this is only on its face, I won't include calcs, but only show that Conversion is close enough to Celebrate and its clones that it should be banned.

Celebrate was banned because because it was a. abusable on a host of Pokemon and b. provided dangerous sweepers like Victini with the ability to boost quickly with little drawback or counterplay post boost.

How does Conversion compare? Well, it is exclusive to the Porygon line but it also allows Porygon-Z to boost quickly. While Porygon-Z is slower than top threats Kyurem-B, Tapu Koko and Greninja pre boost, my back of the napkin math puts max speed P-Z at 459 speed after one boost. This allows it to outspeed all those threats.

Conversion and Conversion 2 also allow you to change your type in addition to getting boosts. Conversion allows you to choose your type while Conversion 2 changes your type to match the opponent's last move. Added with P-Z's Adaptability ability (which gives an extra power boost to moves you use of the same type of yours) you can put yourself in a good offensive position using Conversion to make your typing match your first move (and probably Z-Crystal) and using Conversion 2 to better take hits, all while boosting your bulk, speed, and power.

I'd argue that the combination of unlimited Z-Conversion uses with Adaptability boosted Z-Moves could be seen as an inherently broken concept and that once the meta has settled from its current state of imbalanced turbulence that it should be looked at. Specifically because it fulfills the second seeming criteria of why the celebrate clones were banned in that it lets a dangerous sweeper set up too quickly, with little counterplay, and is incredibly abusable.
 
is it intended that exclusive z crystals not work with general attack moves? didnt see this addressed in the top post. I desperately need my fini to be able to use in tandem hydro vortex and bulls%^t of alola

also
Zygarde @ Steelium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Tail
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows

unwallable outside of quagsire. after kyurem gets banned just change steel to poison
 
Smeargle: @ Normalium-Z
252 HP / 4SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

Lovely Kiss
Imprison
Transform
Parting Shot

Sleep, get a boost +1 Speed boost, Imprison get a +1 SpD boost, Transform to disarm all moves and take their boosts.

Parting Shot is so you can Get out if the Sleep Clause is activated, and heal your allies. If you use Anchor Shot that assumes they won’t KO you, which is foolish, you can only do Imprison on the Sleep switch, and Transform because you go first on their attack due to the +1 Speed boost. Parting Shot is a useful thing to do in general, so it makes sense here as it is rare and gives Smeargle a niche.
is this supposed to live a hit and set up...? It's forced to run Sash in OU, I'm pretty sure the entire metagame here can OHKO it. So long as your opponent is smart enough to lead with something that outspeeds it, you can't rely on this to do anything.
 

branflakes

formerly Branflakes325
is a Tiering Contributor
It's a bit late for me to disagree with the Kyurem-B ban, but it seems that people haven't recognized that there are SO many threats that have no switch-ins and can easily 2KO the relevant meta that has formed thus far. Kyurem-B's distinction is solely its ability which allows it to OHKO (but not outspeed) Mimikyu and ignore sturdy users like Shuckle and Steelix that don't get OHKO'd regardless. Kyurem-B is actually quite hampered by its speed being pretty underwhelming in a meta where speed tiers are more important than ever. Greninja and Koko are on a similar level of power but have so much more speed at the cost of less bulk which doesn't seem to matter.
 
It's a bit late for me to disagree with the Kyurem-B ban, but it seems that people haven't recognized that there are SO many threats that have no switch-ins and can easily 2KO the relevant meta that has formed thus far. Kyurem-B's distinction is solely its ability which allows it to OHKO (but not outspeed) Mimikyu and ignore sturdy users like Shuckle and Steelix that don't get OHKO'd regardless. Kyurem-B is actually quite hampered by its speed being pretty underwhelming in a meta where speed tiers are more important than ever. Greninja and Koko are on a similar level of power but have so much more speed at the cost of less bulk which doesn't seem to matter.
I think a bigger problem involving Kyurem-Black is that it's got such a huge stat total, combined with a way to boost his Speed where it becomes much less of an issue, ignore Sturdy, and have access to the one thing that could make him ridiculous as hell in standard play (near-infinite use physical Ice STAB). Sure, bulk matters a bit less in this meta, but Kyurem's resistance set for taking on things like Koko and Greninja themselves, as well as other Waterium and Electrium users makes him dangerous as hell.

Koko's dangerous, but its power level is set and its speed is set as well. Its bulk is also fairly bad and can't take many Z-moves at all, even resisted, before he faints. Greninja is in a similar boat but has less raw power but can just spam Z-Moves of any type with STAB with Protean and with Ashgren can just have huge raw power with Waterium but doesn't appreciate Speed boosters who can ignore its speed advantage.
 
I don't like to say "hey ban this" much, but....

Greninja @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse

unless someone can show me something that can deal with this monster other than max spdef dragalge (which still gets destroyed when hazards are up) or tapu fini I would appreciate seeing this thing gone

In all seriousness if there are answers to this thing PLEASE let me know I can't find any as of rn because of the absurd coverage it has
 
Any smart player does not lead with this... any smart player doesn’t send it in on something faster. Focus Sash means it cannot Transform first after it has used Imprison, because the turn it uses Transform against something faster it will be at 1 HP and Struggle will KO it next turn.

Can you think of any bulky and popular Pokémon in this metagame it can come in on?
Z-items means no Lum Berry, or Safety Goggles (but Spore has no Z-Speed boost, and fails on Grass types), how about sending it in on Clefable, Snorlax, etc., or a slow set up sweeper before it has a chance to set up?

If you think of what it can stop, you won’t sound so confused with what it can do... hope that helps...

At the very least you have disarmed 2 Pokemon; Spore and Imprison (with Transform Z-moves are stooped).

Parting Shot allows it to help a teammate, and weaken an opponent. If you use Spore and cannot Imprison + Transform, the switch in will have priority, you can Parting Shot on the switch in after they switch out their slept Pokémon, thus lowering their attack and healing up your wall and counter to perfect health.
Most Grass-types, Substitute users, Safeguard users, Tapu Koko's mere existence, and a few more super niche things will instantly stop this set. Past that, it's merely a gimmick that fails to impress. Gaining boosts off the Z-moves shouldn't be something you say is 'appealing' about it, rather saying that it bypasses Taunt. Past that, it won't be doing anything. Requiring multiple turns of setup in a metagame where OHKOs are essentially guaranteed unless a proper resist is sent in, especially a multiple-turn setup on a Pokemon without any bulk and barely any speed to speak of whatsoever.

Something 'slower' barely exists bar teams that have multiple Stockpile users, since that's a popular move on some walls, due to the mere nature of the hyper-offense multi-use Z-crystals.

If I think of what it can stop, my list is shorter than the number of reasons I enjoy my last year English teacher. And she wasn't that great of a teacher.

And you actually don't have 2 disarmed Pokemon; one will be asleep, which isn't too terrible and might just be counteracted by any of the methods listed previously, and the other isn't 'disarmed' since once Smeargle dies due to its pathetic base HP, that Pokemon is free to return in.


If you're gonna use Smeargle, just go with the bog standard and equip it with Spore, Sticky Web, Stealth Rock, and then a filler move like Haze or Spectral Thief. At least it has a niche in that.




EDIT: Greninja I don't think really has any 'counters', but has checks based on sets. I mainly use Electrium, which doesn't fare well when I'm fighting dedicated mixed walls since it doesn't tend to hit many for SE damage. But by the time you figure out its coverage and its Z-Crystal, you're probs fucked.
 
Here is a set that I like:
Meloetta @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sing
- Heal Bell
- Thunder
- Gravity

It seems okay, it has a sort of dual status thing going on, if it sets up a couple sings and gravitys it can sweep. I find sing useful since it allows you to get in more hits and it gives you a chance to reset gravity, and also cripple a pokemon. Z-Heal Bell is very good for meloetta since it lets it stay alive and not have to deal with para hax.
Gravity has a neat bonus of stopping z-splash. Blocking High Jump Kick probably does not matter in this meta. It also supports your ground types like garchomp.
Replays to show how it can work:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-641896011
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-641892932

Also, is heal block supposed to be able to block z-Heal Bell, or is heal block supposed to be ignored, like how z-status ignores taunt?
Is this how it is supposed to work?: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642045987
Bulbepedia says: "Affected Pokémon can still restore HP using the Z-Power effects of status Z-Moves. Heal Block cannot prevent a Pokémon from using or being healed by any Z-Move, including moves like Z-Soft-Boiled and Z-Heal Pulse." https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heal_Block_(move)
 
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I don't really have much time to play this anymore but has anyone tried Sun yet?

I mean Venusaur couldn't sound much better with Z-Growth giving it +3 SpA in Sun, Inferno Overdrive being infinitely better than HP Fire, and it's typing + Chlorophyl making it a pretty bloody good soft check to Koko and Greninja, two of the biggest metagame threats at the moment.

Could someone please test this and let me know how it goes?
 
I don't really have much time to play this anymore but has anyone tried Sun yet?

I mean Venusaur couldn't sound much better with Z-Growth giving it +3 SpA in Sun, Inferno Overdrive being infinitely better than HP Fire, and it's typing + Chlorophyl making it a pretty bloody good soft check to Koko and Greninja, two of the biggest metagame threats at the moment.

Could someone please test this and let me know how it goes?
Did a few games with Sun, several with Ninetales + Exeggutor/Venusaur and then after that just Ninetales+Venusaur, then a bunch of stuff to break teams in half including Dnite.

Z-Growth is pretty silly but not game-breaking, Firium-Z helps with breaking past specific things like Blissey since you can target their Defense, something they won't expect to need to boost for, with a Sun-boosted Z-Earthquake. Venusaur sucks, though, for breaking past Talonflame, so pack a counter or two to that monster. Exeggutor did a similar job, it was a bit slower and lost to a thing packing Z-Sandstorm for some reason, but it did the same job and hit harder with a more specially inclined stat total and didn't mind carrying dual STAB (Psyshock/SolarBeam).
 
Smeargle: @ Normalium-Z
252 HP / 4SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

Lovely Kiss
Imprison
Transform
Parting Shot

Sleep, get a boost +1 Speed boost, Imprison get a +1 SpD boost, Transform to disarm all moves and take their boosts.

Parting Shot is so you can Get out if the Sleep Clause is activated, and heal your allies. If you use Anchor Shot that assumes they won’t KO you, which is foolish, you can only do Imprison on the Sleep switch, and Transform because you go first on their attack due to the +1 Speed boost. Parting Shot is a useful thing to do in general, so it makes sense here as it is rare and gives Smeargle a niche.
Another problem with this set is that any Z-Move it tries to do will always be Normal-type. So if you try to Transform into anything that isn't a Normal type, then you're not going to do as much damage as they are. The opponent can always switch to get out of Imprison + Transform and if they have a Ghost type (see: Mimikyu, Gengar, etc.) then you're in trouble.

Additionally, any attempt to sleep a pokemon will almost always result in a switch to Tapu Koko, making Smeargle almost always dead weight.
 

branflakes

formerly Branflakes325
is a Tiering Contributor
This tier is nuts but pretty fun. I've had a lot of success this team and I'm currently at the top of the ladder (taxipax), so I'd like to share it with you all since I don't plan on laddering with this team anymore. It's nowhere near perfect and hardly even optimized, but it works wonders against what is currently standard.

https://pokepast.es/461b49f80dd287f4

Explanations:
Forretress @ Red Card
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Gyro Ball


Hazards are expectedly really good, and Forretress is probably one of the most reliable ones available. Red Card + Sturdy prevents it from being turn 1 setup fodder and it distinguishes itself from other Sturdy setters by having Rapid Spin.

Spikes - helps puts a lot of things in KO range of Mimikyu, Whimsicott and Ninjask.
Rapid Spin - realistically, forretress doesn't get to use this very often because of the super high pressure environment it's in. still great to have though.
Toxic Spikes - one layer of spikes and one layer of toxic spikes really goes a long way. Ninjask can sub/protect stall to allow opponents to fall into KO range after some poison damage.
Gyro Ball - previously explosion, but I don't like not being able to touch opposing Mimikyu.

Whimsicott @ Fairium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nature Power
- Hyper Beam
- Light Screen
- Tailwind


Obligatory I guess? This thing is so broken imo lol. The EV spread allows it to survive opposing Whimsicott priority, and the rest of the moveset is pretty much support. I've considered grass whistle and/or growth but ehhh not consistent enough for me.

Nature Power(170 BP Twinkle Tackle, +1 priority) - STAB is definitely better than coverage here. KOs a lot of things after some hazard damage.
Hyper Beam(200 BP Twinkle Tackle) - nails dark types and is 30bp more powerful than nature power if the opponent is definitely slower.
Light Screen(+1 Spdef) - allows whimsicott to take on special ash-gren by surviving two hits, since z-light screen boosts spdef. good support too i guess.
Tailwind(Focus Energy) - handy support especially if sticky webs are on my side. it only really helps itself, Mimikyu and potentially Ninjask but that's really enough.

Mimikyu @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Wood Hammer
- Curse
- Splash


Also pretty much obligatory and arguably broken. It's main purpose is to threaten a revenge kill on most things, stop fast sweepers and potentially stop those pesky stockpile abusers + clefable. Max speed is absolutely necessary for beating a bunch of 90-95 base speed pokemon including Excadrill.

Shadow Sneak - priority is nice
Wood Hammer(190 BP Neverending Nightmare) - this gives Mimikyu its most powerful z-ghost move (190bp i think) and can dish out serious damage against things like fini and quagsire.
Curse(full HP recovery) - solely used for inflicting curse. this is a somewhat recent moveset change to make it really hard for Clefable and Snorlax and friends to set up. it's sometimes a last ditch attempt to prevent a sweep, but this tier is all about last ditch efforts right?
Splash(+3 attack) - sometimes this is needed along with Curse to pressure the most annoying of setup sweepers. hippo comes to mind.

Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam
- Stealth Rock
- Roar


Useful anti-meta mon that actually has enough defense to eat some hits. Even with max def it still takes like 80% from +3 Mimikyu so it's really hard to make defenses impressive with anything. This is a pretty reliable switch-in to Koko and some other things I can't recall atm. Sturdy is a great ability to have before mega evolving, and Steelix can use it to eat any hit and roar out opposing setup sweepers that could otherwise just end the game.

Earthquake - stab that is necessary for hitting excadrill.
Heavy Slam - stab that is necessary for hitting mimikyu. man this tier is so centralized lol
Stealth Rock - necessary for chipping non-grounded pokemon into KO range of the offensive mons on this team.
Roar - necessary for not losing. also obviously good with all of the hazards this team uses

Blissey @ Rockium Z
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Sing
- Light Screen
- Heal Bell


Blissey is this team's effort to deal with opposing Whimsicott and most Ash-grens. Rockium-Z gives Blissey a decently powerful neutral attack against most things, and just seems to fare
well against everything relevant that isn't Excadrill. If you know of a better z-move type then let me know, because this has so far proven to be the most consistent. Otherwise Blissey just does what it always does in terms of support. Heal bell is sometimes useful for its original purpose, but mostly here for the busted 100% recovery.

Hyper Beam(200 BP Continental Crush) - if the opponent resists rock but not normal, then vanilla hyper beam is a considerable option.
Sing(+1 speed) - not at all reliable, but can put things to sleep. since Blissey is usually going last, this allows me a guaranteed free switch to something else, when otherwise it's really hard to get offensive mons in safely. the +1 speed is pretty much useless but it's there i guess.
Light Screen(+1 Spdef) - blissey is really frail on the special side so it needs to beef up its spdef. joking aside i wish blissey had access to reflect. i might just replace this with wish actually.
Heal Bell(full HP recovery) - the go-to recovery move. the cleric properties are much appreciated since the team is somewhat vulnerable to status.

Ninjask @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Giga Impact
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Protect


Ninjask is an underrated and overlooked powerhouse in this meta. Aside from priority users, Ninjask has firm control over the speed game and can beat most boosted opponents at +1. 90 base attack is enough for Ninjask to 2HKO most of the meta aside from bulky resists. Since Ninjask only needs one attack in supersonic skystrike, the rest of its moveset is focused on supporting this one move. Unfortunately Ninjask's biggest and most obvious weakness is its speed, which makes it difficult to play around priority. Aside from this, Ninjask is a super reliable late game sweeper. I haven't bothered to fine tune the speed EVs, because any subtle changes would be pretty negligible. Ninjask probably doesn't need absolute max speed but it definitely needs to be jolly.

Giga Impact(200 BP Supersonic Skystrike) - ninjask doesn't need coverage because all other options are weaker than even a resisted skystrike.
Substitute(restores negative stats) - severely punishes any opponent that doesn't directly attack ninjask. this often nets ninjask an early game kill in an attempt to stop it from sweeping. this also negates attack drops from intimidate, parting shot, etc.
Swords Dance(restores negative stats) - +2 ninjask is really impressive, being able to OHKO tapu koko,
Protect(restores negative stats) - without boosts, ninjask is sometimes slower if the opponent has already boosted up. +1 speed ninjask has 690 speed, allowing it to beat most things at +2. protection against mega lopunny fake out is nice too.


Huge threats:
Mixed protean greninja (with gunk shot and fightinium-z)
Mold breaker firium-z excadrill
 
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I have a team that I think I've just today managed to optimize, and if it does well enough I'll share the whole thing, but for now here's my favorite set from it.

Thundurus @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave / Heal Block
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Sludge Wave / Focus Blast

SSSS KOs most, but not all, neutral mons, and Thunderbolt is there for Steel-types and shit. That's the draw here. Flying is a good offensive typing and Thundurus is fast.

Prankster Substitute is the real tech here because reliable, low-pain scouting is at a premium in a meta where resisted hits deal like 40% to everything, and mispredicts can be deadly. Even if the opponent stays in and breaks the sub, and even if it doesn't at least reveal its item choice in the process, you've only wasted 25% HP on a mon that functions near peak efficiency at even 1 HP. Watching an opponent try to revenge kill you with a scarfer is fucking hilarious.

The double wave set is designed to beat offense - Prankster T-Wave is a last-ditch godsend, and Sludge Wave lets you KO Koko, which might try to switch in, or revenge if you're behind a sub. The Block-Blast set is better for breaking fatter teams with Z-Heal Block and Fighting coverage for shit like Magnezone, Ttar, and Snorlax.

Having used Clefable a bit more now, I'd say it's not quite as bad as I said upthread. It's absolutely potent, and sometimes it just plain wins, but enough things can deal enough to it that it has to pick between healing and setting up, and that -might- be enough to let it stay in the tier. Might. It barely needs suppport, and there are still games where I use it and it just requires one setup turn to manhandle 2/3 of the opposing team and I think "this is not how the meta should be". But it's not every game.

Stockpile and Koko are exactly as disgusting as I previously mentioned, though.
 
61F50DD2-953E-4B7B-9E73-1E9A0D45C054.png
They should make Pokémon Showdown show the base power and effects on status moves with Z-Crystals, for now I added the Bulbapedia Link. Maybe add the list to the OP in Hide tags?
 
I’ve been messing around with teams, and sun is extremely fun to play. Ninetales is the star of my team, but Venusaur and the others are nice additions.
http://pokepast.es/3f35534fea5fabf3

Ninetales (F) @ Firium Z
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Hyper Beam
- Hypnosis

It’s a simple set, yet it can defeat full teams by itself. I’m not sure if this is because I’m lower ladder, but the accounts I was using is higher up on the ladder than my main because I was messing around with other teams. I’m just using this one sun team on this account.

I usually use it as a lead. If your opponent leads off with something like Tapu Koko or Greninja, I switch to Venusaur, tank the hit, and fire off a Solar Beam or Sludge Bomb (depending on the pokemon) which kills them. If they lead off with something Ninetales outspeeds (which is a lot to be honest), use Z-Hypnosis, Nasty Plot, then you most likely win from there. If they send in a dragon type, hypnosis/do chip damage, then clean up with your other pokemon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642184616 - A prime example of Ninetales sweepimg by herself. One shot everything after getting a Nasty Plot up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642185714 - Played around until I found a good switch into Ninetales then swept from there.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642188313 - Same guy. He forfeited after seeing my Ninetales get a speed and sp. atk. boost.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642204242 - Tried to sweep with Ninetales and probably could’ve (unless he kept his Manaphy until the end to wear off my sun), but got unlucky against Mimikyu. Maybe if the first hypnosis landed, or if it stayed asleep for one more turn. I sacrificed Flygon so I can go into Venusaur, used Z-Sunny Day, and won.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642188682 - Here’s another example of Ninetales sweeping. It’s great seeing a Ninetales one shot all the enemy pokemon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642318118 - I changed my team, as I felt Jirachi and Flygon weren’t very useful. Very annoying Quagsire, but turns out that Venusaur one shots it with Solar Beam. Tip: don’t set up in front of something that’s faster than you unless you have a speed boosting move... That Mimikyu just got destroyed by my Lycanroc.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642448129 - Venusaur sweep. I made a lot of mistakes though.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642449174 - I would’ve lost here if he didn’t use Ice Beam on my Ninetales.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642453636 - Here, I swapped to Excadrill instead of Zapdos, because it didn’t really do anything. Excadrill has sandstorm (and Sand Force) which is fun. Sun and sand team mixed is a bit weird though.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642455967 - Another Ninetales sweep... Got lucky with Mimikyu though.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642456459 - Ninetales was amazing in this battle despite Light Screens and rain.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642457984 - One of my favorite battles. It showcases how the team works together. I knew Scolipede could sweep, but only if Mimikyu’s Disguise is broken, and Landorus-T gets low. Ninetales defeats Mew, and breaks Mimikyu’s ability, then Lycanroc comes in, and gets to do damage. Even Landorus isn’t a safe switch in. Then, all I had to do was send in Scolipede, protect, and Acid Downpour.

Ninetales is very fun to use. I always felt Ninetales had great potential but it has only okay speed, mediocre special attack, and not a very good movepool. Coupled with a speed boosting move, a powerful STAB Z-Move, and Solar Beam to cover its weaknesses, this is a metagame where Ninetales shines in.

Venusaur @ Firium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Growth/Synthesis
- Sludge Bomb

Here is my Venusaur set. It isn’t perfect, but it seems to do well. I haven’t used Growth much, but Z-Sunny Day is incredibly useful. Use it if you believe you’ll survive a hit and can knock them out with your next attack (tip: Inferno Overdrive does more damage than Solar Beam both in and out of sun). Don’t use Z-Sunny Day if the sun is already up, because you have Chlorophyll. And as I have said before, this is good against Tapu Koko and Greninja, because it can tank and one-shot them, but I’ve seen a Tapu Koko running Brave Bird, so be careful of that.

Lycanroc @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Brick Break/Toxic
- Thrash
- Toxic/Swords Dance

I love Lycanroc and it is very useful for my team, but the reason I chose it originally was because of Accelerock to beat Talonflame. Talonflame and Lycanroc are also a good pair. They both have fast speeds, and can knock out Mimikyu in one shot. If Ninetales breaks its Disguise, I can send in either of them safely (+3 Shadow Sneak doesn’t knock out Lycanroc, and Talonflame has Gale Wings) to kill it. Stealth rocks are troublesome though. I could however, use Lycanroc, Venusaur (in sun), or Scolipede to break its Disguise and then use the other pokemon to kill it. Thrash is for Continental Crush. Sadly, it doesn’t learn Giga Impact. Accelerock is needed, just in case for Talonflames. Toxic is also a great option to wear down stall pokemon (like Snorlax or Quagsire that spam Stockpile and/or Curse) and you can use it instead of Brick Break or Swords Dance. I use Brick Break because I faced an annoying Light Screen/Reflect team, and it is helpful against some Steel types. I haven’t found much use in Swords Dance, because Lycanroc is incredibly fragile, but if you can predict if the enemy would switch or not, it could be useful. Sand Rush is just for sand teams (or for my Excadrill’s Sandstorm), which sometimes is useful, but I think it is better than its other abilities. Steadfast isn’t very useful even if the enemy team has a Mega Lopunny or something, and they are pretty rare to find.

Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Flare Blitz
- Tailwind
- Roost

Simple Talonflame set. Good for cleaning up.

Scolipede @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Giga Impact
- Swords Dance/Filler
- Aqua Tail/Earthquake/Filler

Another check for the Tapus. Jolly is to outspeed base 100s, but Adamant can work as well.

check updates (Excadrill) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Sandstorm
- Rapid Spin/Rock Slide
- Giga Impact

Firium Z could be useful, but I already have Talonflame, Venusaur, and Ninetales with fire moves. Corkscrew Crash is a great STAB move, and hits flying types. I use Sand Force, and Adamant nature because Z-Sandstorm boosts speed, and all you would need is damage. If you don’t need a spinner, Rock Slide would also be helpful against pokemon such as Celesteela. This is also a random set I came up with. Sandstorm x sun may not work well, so you can choose a normal Mold Breaker set, and plop a Z-Crystal on it.

Other weather teams (mostly rain) can beat this team if you mess up once, but it’s a really fun team with a ton of damage potential even with PU and RU mons.

Losing streak. I’ve been making a ton of mistakes overpredicting. I’ll try to make a new team.

I’ve been using Manaphy instead of Excadrill, as I mainly used it because I needed a spinner, but it wasn’t really needed. My Excadrill set wasn’t very useful for setting up and doing a bunch of damage, and all it really beat was Tapu Koko (I already had two mons that were already capable of dealing with it). I’m pretty sure that Mimikyu one shot it with the Ghost Z-Move.

I use Manaphy because it learns Heart Swap, and Z-Heart Swap boosts your critical chance which is fun. I had trouble with Stockpile mons like Snorlax, Quagsire, and I’ve even seen a Alolan Muk once. I thought Toxic Lycanroc could deal with that but I forgot about Snorlax’s Immunity ability, and also Alolan Muk is a poison type. It wasn’t very necessary for Quagsire anyways, as Venusaur one shot it. This being said, you can replace Toxic with Swords Dance, or just keep it. I would replace it if you would like to know my opinion.

Manaphy @ Waterium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heart Swap
- Rain Dance
- Rest/Tail Glow
- Ice Beam

This turned out to be much more than just a check for Stockpile setters. Yes, I just got of Sandstorm Excadrill, but I replaced it with a Rain Dance Manaphy which is much more crazy. Sun + rain would never work, right? Well, I see this game to be “take out as many pokemon as you can with one pokemon.” That’s why weather is crazy good in this metagame. Since weather Z-Moves boost your speed and increase the damage of some type, it makes you do a lot of damage even without a Tail Glow up. Rain Dance was also useful for my Scolipede, to do maximum damage with its Aqua Tail. Since the team is primarily based on fire moves, you can choose if you want to keep the rain up with Ninetales (or even Venusaur, to an extent). It’s very hard to switch in this metagame because of Z-Moves and how much damage they do. For an example, I have seen many, many people try to switch in their Landorus-T into my Lycanroc, thinking that they wouldn’t take much damage because of Intimidate. However, they would lose 70% of their health, and they can’t switch into anything else because they don’t have any physical tanks, and would be forced to sac a pokemon. Next, they would send in their Greninja to finish me off (I’ll use Continental Crush, so they can’t Z-Rain Dance, and sweep), send in Scolipede (if at enough health it can live a Hydro Vortex through a Substitute), Manaphy, Venusaur (if sun is up, but most likely not), or my Talonflame (if no rocks) to kill their Greninja. It’s like a cycle of killing each others’ pokemon back and forth, but basically what it comes down to is who has the most speed, and coverage. This is why it makes weather great. You can use moves you normally wouldn’t such as Solar Beam and Thunder, but most importantly it can let you have more coverage as you can use a Z-Move that gets boosted in a specific type of weather (like Hydro Vortex) instead of Energy Ball. You just do so much damage that in the rain, it does more to a Water type though resisted than Energy Ball, a supereffective move against it. This lets you run Ice Beam, for 4x effectiveness on Dragon types (mostly for Dragonite and other Dragon/Flying). Using only one attacking move, you get a ton of coverage, and you can use your other two slots (the other is for the weather setting move), you can use it for recovery, to counter stall, setup, and some other options. Since Ninetales already has Drought, running Sunny Day be kind of useless, so you can run Hypnosis instead, and try to sweep from turn 1.
to;dr- Weather setting moves and weather in general are amazing for taking down multiple mons with one pokemon because of speed boosts (of Z-Moves), damage boosts it provides, and coverage moves.
 
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Here is a set that I like:
Meloetta Gravity

Meloetta @ Normalium Z
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sing
- Heal Bell
- Thunder
- Gravity
It seems okay, it has a sort of dual status thing going on, if it sets up a couple sings and gravitys it can sweep. I find sing useful since it allows you to get in more hits and it gives you a chance to reset gravity, and also cripple a pokemon. Z-Heal Bell is very good for meloetta since it lets it stay alive and not have to deal with para hax.
Gravity has a neat bonus of stopping z-splash. Blocking High Jump Kick probably does not matter in this meta. It also supports your ground types like garchomp.
Replays to show how it can work:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-641896011
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-641892932

Also, is heal block supposed to be able to block z-Heal Bell, or is heal block supposed to be ignored, like how z-status ignores taunt?
Is this how it is supposed to work?: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642045987
Bulbepedia says: "Affected Pokémon can still restore HP using the Z-Power effects of status Z-Moves. Heal Block cannot prevent a Pokémon from using or being healed by any Z-Move, including moves like Z-Soft-Boiled and Z-Heal Pulse." https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heal_Block_(move)
Assuming that what I'm about to propose is common, and if it is, then yikes, but Golurk can shut down any sense of sweeping this Meloetta can do, due to its typing of Ghost/Ground.
 
I just want to say that in this tier it is a HUGE help to have dual screens up.
When I've set up dual screens with Klefki, it opens up some opportunities for some more fun and bulky sets (as opposed to the Mirror Move Tapu Koko you find everywhere, for example)

Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave

After setting dual screens just T-wave whatever is trying to set up on you (if it's not setting up on you, Klefki is probably dead after dual screens) and if you're still alive, just throw down some spikes. I picked Light Clay over a Z-crystal because the whole point of the dual screens is to give something else time to set up defensive boosts.


Muk-Alola @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Clear Smog
- Curse
- Stockpile

Gunk Shot + Darkinium Z is just dual STAB, and in this meta it's hardly resisted by anything. Clear Smog is mostly to break Mimikyu's Disguise while getting rid of the Z-Splash boost it always seems to go for, but can also be useful against some other things (Psych-Up users, for example). Z-Stockpile to get +1 Def and +1 SpDef while also fully healing you, I basically spam this 3 times once Muk comes in, so that when screens are gone, it has its own bulk. Z-Stockpile continues to heal even when it doesn't get defensive boosts anymore, so that's lots of recovery. Z-Curse is to boost Muk's weaker Defense stat and give it some more power to hit stuff back.


Clefable @ Fairium Z
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Aromatherapy
- Flamethrower
- Cosmic Power

With dual screens up, this thing becomes very useful as well. Where without screens most things can 2HKO it with ease, now it has a chance to go for a Z-Cosmic Power for +2 SpDef and +1 Def, and heal it off with Z-Aromatherapy. Calm Mind to boost its SpA and Flamethrower + Fairium Z for the coverage it usually runs.


Here's a replay showing how awesome screens are (and how terrible my luck is):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-642661589

Another replay. Step 1: dual screens. Step 2: Alolan-Muk sweep:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-643372166

And again, screens to set up defensive boosts, easy:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ultimatez-643607134
 
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Muk-Alola @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Clear Smog
- Curse
- Stockpile

Gunk Shot + Darkinium Z is just dual STAB, and in this meta it's hardly resisted by anything. Clear Smog is mostly to break Mimikyu's Disguise while getting rid of the Z-Splash boost it always seems to go for, but can also be useful against some other things (Psych-Up users, for example). Z-Stockpile to get +1 Def and +1 SpDef while also fully healing you, I basically spam this 3 times once Muk comes in, so that when screens are gone, it has its own bulk. Z-Stockpile continues to heal even when it doesn't get defensive boosts anymore, so that's lots of recovery. Z-Curse is to boost Muk's weaker Defense stat and give it some more power to hit stuff back.
I have a few suggestions on how to improve this Muk set. I'd consider replacing Gunk Shot with Poison Jab, because it has more PP (good for something designed to sit there and tank hits) and actually makes use of Poison Touch. If you think it's not worth the loss in power, then I'd replace Poison Touch with Power of Alchemy, so it can't be abused by an opponent with Trace, Skill Swap, or Role Play.
 
I have a few suggestions on how to improve this Muk set. I'd consider replacing Gunk Shot with Poison Jab, because it has more PP (good for something designed to sit there and tank hits) and actually makes use of Poison Touch. If you think it's not worth the loss in power, then I'd replace Poison Touch with Power of Alchemy, so it can't be abused by an opponent with Trace, Skill Swap, or Role Play.
i mean poison touch doesn't affect poison jab either since it already poisons as a side effect afaik
 
I have a few suggestions on how to improve this Muk set. I'd consider replacing Gunk Shot with Poison Jab, because it has more PP (good for something designed to sit there and tank hits) and actually makes use of Poison Touch. If you think it's not worth the loss in power, then I'd replace Poison Touch with Power of Alchemy, so it can't be abused by an opponent with Trace, Skill Swap, or Role Play.
I'm far from being an expert on making sets, so I guess you're absolutely right that you should run either Poison Jab or Power of Alchemy. So far I haven't run into any problems with PP (as you can just keep boosting if you're facing something weak and you want the power to hit something strong early on), so I'd be more inclined to change the ability than the move.
 
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a severe decline in Sticky Webs teams? I used to encounter them pretty much 1 in every 2 or 3 matches, but now they're practically nonexistent. It was the only reason I ran Defog on my Choice Scarf Kartana, but yeah, what gives?