[DONE] Uncompetitive Strategies [Baton Pass]

I think that dEnIsSsS' solution is the best one proposed so far. Banning the ability to baton pass speed boosts cripples baton passing teams in both their initial setup and in revenge killing the sweeper. As dEnIsSsS clearly explained for all of the relevant baton passers, without a speed boost these previously potent passers would be quite easy to stop. This clause would also protect and preserve nearly all of the healthy forms of baton pass and the baton passers themselves. We would still be able to use NP Celebi, spikes Smeargle, SD Scolipede, and more. It is very important to get rid of the unhealthy and keep the healthy in a very clear and efficient manner, and this proposed solution does just that.
 

Zarel

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On the topic of allowing Speed by itself to be BPed, I'd like our resident Baton Pass expert dEnIsSsS to tell us how powerful a single chain of: Sub/BP Scolipede to CM/SP Espeon would be.

AgiliPass may not be broken, but I do have to wonder if the parts of full BP we don't ban still allow for some trickery.
 
On the topic of allowing Speed by itself to be BPed, I'd like our resident Baton Pass expert dEnIsSsS to tell us how powerful a single chain of: Sub/BP Scolipede to CM/SP Espeon would be.

AgiliPass may not be broken, but I do have to wonder if the parts of full BP we don't ban still allow for some trickery.
You could add Substitute as an "other boost". So you can't Baton Pass + some form of speed boost + substitute.
 
The proposed idea of banning speed boost + other boost + baton pass, including the 1 bp user limit, really seems like the most sensible option to me. I understand that it might be somewhat complex, but honestly this strategy at first glance would seriously cripple any chance of an uncompetitive BP chain happening, with zero collateral damage to other perfectly healthy pokemon.

Something I was considering was suggesting a stored power + bp clause, but when Dennis went down the list of potential recipients, I noticed that Sylveon could still make a very potent receiver of this, so it wouldn't be a complete end to BP as I initially thought.

The most obvious exploitable aspect of this currently proposed clause would be Speed boost -> Espeon with Calm Mind, Stored Power, and Reflect. At this point, although this is technically a BP chain, you have to wonder whether it is really viable or not. However, there is the potential to neuter even this effectively, my amendment to the clause would be to add this:
A pokemon that has been passed any type of boost can not raise any of its stats further.

Of course, this may not be needed.
 
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atomicllamas

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On the topic of allowing Speed by itself to be BPed, I'd like our resident Baton Pass expert dEnIsSsS to tell us how powerful a single chain of: Sub/BP Scolipede to CM/SP Espeon would be.

AgiliPass may not be broken, but I do have to wonder if the parts of full BP we don't ban still allow for some trickery.
The thing about using subs to accumulate speed boosts, is that as long as your opponent has something capable of breaking its sub (which any team should have), is that it isn't possible to pass the sub (except on forced switches ie like a choice locked Keldeo using sacred sword for an example). But if you do force a switch the most you are passing is +6 speed, and a free switch in, as Espeon's frailty means pretty much any Pokemon that is breaking Scolipede's sub is breaking Espeon's sub. A +6 Speed Espeon w/ no calm mind boosts and stored power is relying on a 140 BP move off of a likely uninvested SpA stat until it gets calm mind boosts, and once again given its frailty that's easier said than done. I guess I'm not an expert but I feel like there are plenty of things that can stomach that attack and KO in return (likely even if invested as well, which makes it even easier to kill). This strategy is no different than the BW2 NU strategy of using Ninjask to straight up pass Speed boosts to a recipient Pokemon except the fact that Scolipede is a better Pokemon, but Ninjask was allowed to pass SD as well, and Ninjask pass was a low level gimmick at best (in BW2 NU). Defensive teams and offensive teams alike both have plenty of options to respond to pure speed passing, given that it limits both the power and longevity of the recipient, in comparison to what is currently allowed. Not saying that its impossible to win by using Sub + Speed Boost + BP, but it doesn't seem like an extraordinarily broken wincon to me, and most likely not even worthwhile the majority of the time.

Both disallowing passing sub (in conjunction w/ speed boosts) and disallowing boosting don't seem particularly smart to me, the former because I don't really think its broken, and the latter because its a ridiculous ban, hard to come up with a good way to implement during team building (ie its impossible to do so), and once again I don't really see it as a problem. What happens if you Nasty Pass to Yanmega for example, you can't just not allow speed boost to work (for the same reason implementing haze function upon BP was dumb af) and you can't blank out Yanmega, in case, for example I am about to get pursuit trapped, but I want to BP this to Yanmega to sack it as it dies to SR the next time it switches in regardless (oddly specific hypothetical, but literally an impossible ban to execute properly). At least w/ speed + other boost ban, you can disallow BP +: SS, QD, Geomancy, Boosting berry + Speed boosting ability / move, speed boosting berry + boosting move, and Speed boosting ability + boosting move (and any others I missed).

If we implement this in previous gens, can we not muck around with lower tiers? I can't think of a single lower tier from DPP - BW that needs an excess nerf to baton pass (iirc BW2 had a smash pass ban at the very end? NU and RU did at least), although I am not an expert on DPP UU, so I could be mistaken.
 
A pokemon that has been passed any type of boost can not raise any of its stats further.
Just saying that this causes much more harm than good imo as dry passing into a sweeper is completely legitimate and this isn't an issue regardless.

As for the actual matter at hand, bp is definitely not broken in gsc lol (for anyone who thinks this is relevant) and while i'd like to see DrumPass gone in ADV it's really not as ridiculous as later gens. I feel like stuff like AgiliPass Zap is legit in DPP though, the "only one boost in stat" thing might work. Something DEFINITELY needs to be done about BP (more prominent stuff I feel being Geomancy, if the issue is to be solved step by step) before the next official OU tours. Also, transitivity definitely needs to be broken for dpp/bw/xy as altho lower tiers are basically dead for the former two, the latter doesnt have ridiculous bp stuff to that extent and a lesser version of the ban (or not at all, i really don't know) could be implemented there.

EDIT- oh i misread your post, still something like SDpass into a sweeper isn't the issue here so i'm not sure what this solves >.>
 
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Just saying that this causes much more harm than good imo as dry passing into a sweeper is completely legitimate and this isn't an issue regardless.
I'm still not 100% sure that my proposed change is necessary, but it's worth pointing out that it would not affect your ability to dry pass into a sweeper, because no boosting has taken place prior.
 

dEnIsSsS

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sorry guys I was feeling pretty bad yesterday. I agree with everything atomicllamas said. However, I do feel like it can still win against bulky teams mainly because Espeon itself is capable of setting up without much trouble. I'm going to play some games on the ladder with a team built around this core and post some replays and my thoughts later.
 

Bughouse

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If we implement this in previous gens, can we not muck around with lower tiers? I can't think of a single lower tier from DPP - BW that needs an excess nerf to baton pass (iirc BW2 had a smash pass ban at the very end? NU and RU did at least), although I am not an expert on DPP UU, so I could be mistaken.
The only things that come to mind as being occasional baton passers of speed + something extra (as that seems to be the prevailing option) in DPP lower tiers are Gligar, Scyther and Blaziken, but Scyther was typically only passing Swords Dance (not also Agility), Blaziken was only rarely used as a passer anyway (much much more often as a mixed wallbreaker), and Gligar was bad, though usable in the unofficial DPP NU.
 

dEnIsSsS

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here is the team that I made and tested on the ladder.

Espeon @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Morning Sun

Scolipede @ Coba Berry
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 240 HP / 28 Def / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Megahorn
- Baton Pass

Azelf @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Explosion

Latias (F) @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Roar
- Healing Wish
- Defog

Tornadus (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tailwind
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Taunt

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost

Description: This team's main goal is to set up an Espeon sweep. Kee Berry (:innovation:) is an interesting item that increases the holder's Defense by 1 stage whenever it takes a physical attack, and Reflect would be very useful here. Scolipede is running both Megahorn and Rock Slide just to make sure opposing Talonflame and many other physical attackers don't use it as a set up bait. Charizard is here as a secundary win condition (it ends up being the main win condition most of the time because Espeon sucks against offense). I usually lead with Tornadus because it can spam some Hurricanes and Focus Blasts before dying and Tailwind is an amazing support move for Azelf, seeing as it almost always guarantees both Screens (it works like Cottonee on Geopass). In case either one of Espeon or Charizard fails at sweeping the opposing side, Latias is here to give Scolipede a second BP attempt.



http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243251716 <= opposing setup Pokemon that aren't ko'd by Megahorn + Rock Slide can use Scolipede as set up bait, which can be troublesome sometimes.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243253358 <= gengar .__.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243255046 <= Espeon simply cannot kill a Jirachi that spreads paralysis
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-243158532 <= Sand Offense is an issue for sure. Whirlwind/Roar Hippowdon also limits the amount of Speed Boosts Scolipede can achive to 1, seeing as it ignores Substitute/Protect"


Scolipede definitely misses Iron Defense. Kee Berry does not even work most of the time. Espeon's recovery (Morning Sun) is really bad, and easy for Sandstorm teams to exploit. Espeon is also very frail on the physical side, so if it is not able to OHKO the opposing Pokemon, it will take a massive blow. Bisharp is also a top tier threat as Sucker Punch just kills Espeon regardless.

The "BP + speed boost + other boost" ban is just fine in my opinion. If anything I strongly believe that Espeon is a rather poor choice as a pure speed BP reciever. Charizard-X, on the other hand, looks way more effective with the speed boost support.
 
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Quoting from Scald thread:

Not entirely going to get into why Scald is/isn't unhealthy at this time, but just wanted to respond to the above argument and why it unfortunately doesn't apply to OU.

In OU, it wouldn't really matter if "water types lose an edge", because if (and only if) Scald was proven to be unhealthy, then Scald doesn't stay in the metagame. Sure, water types get nerfed, but who really cares? Its not a reason to keep an unhealthy element in the game. When Baton Pass was unhealthy in OU, it was immediately hit with a clause (maybe not enough, but I digress...). Did that suck for Baton Pass teams? Yes. Did such teams get nerfed? Yes. No-one really cares though, because it was deemed unhealthy toward the meta and thus, the Council stepped in. So really, its immaterial whether Scald "gives water types an edge", because if its unhealthy, then it goes, and if not, it stays.
So why Baton Pass doesn't actually follow this reasoning? I see lot of people defending Gen 6 Nasty/Sword/CM Pass Celebi just because it will be nerfed by a simple Baton Pass ban (or just BP + boost ban which keeps the "anti-pursuit&momentum move" function of BP) and for this reason there are a lot of untangled reasonings on what complex ban fits better. You say BPass was nerfed yeah but the issue still remains. So why are we caring about Celebi when the unhealthy element is clearly BatonPassing boosts, and at the same time we are not caring about water type nerf due to hypothetical Scald ban? Don't misunderstand, I am for a Scald ban for the all reasons explained by a lot of users in that thread, but I don't see why we could deal with BP in a different way than we are doin with Scald (though they have different issues).

If anything I strongly believe that Espeon is a rather poor choice as a pure speed BP reciever. Charizard-X, on the other hand, looks way more effective with the speed boost support.
Why should BP allow to make op stuff be way more op? Isn't this unhealthy? I'm pretty sure that speedpass will still be an issue since there are a lot of bulky powerhouses whose only flaw is to be slower than common stuff and with just few support can be too much.

I really appreciated this proposal, added to the simple "No BP + speed boost (no matter if this came from item/move/ability)":
A pokemon that has been passed any type of boost can not raise any of its stats further.
This would prevent to "bypass" the "no speed boost pass" just bpassing any other boost to a mon that can boost the speed itself (this won't be hard with Tailwind/Screens support or anything else), and even if this looks so complex, it's the really only way to avoid any further issue from BP in future imo (besides of just banning BP+Boost but hey, "Celebipass in ORAS/BW is so healthy that we can ignore the BP issue as a whole, so don't touch it")
 
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M Dragon

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Quoting from Scald thread:
Why should BP allow to make op stuff be way more op? Isn't this unhealthy? I'm pretty sure that speedpass will still be an issue since there are a lot of bulky powerhouses whose only flaw is to be slower than common stuff and with just few support can be too much.
No it nos not unhealthy at all.
Agility + BP has always been a thing, and it is nowhere close to "unhealthy" or "broken".

I like Zarel and Deniss proposal the most:
The "BP + speed boost + other boost" ban is just fine in my opinion.
 

Freeroamer

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I think you have to be careful about slamming down too hard and actually taking competitive strategies out of the game. The proposed nerf of Speed+any other stat+BP is already pretty killer, as even if the likes of Espeon gets Speed boosts from Baton Pass, it now has to deal with its garbage Defense stat which makes it much more vulnerable to being taken out before it can sweep. The suggested nerf deals with the issue at hand in pokemon like Espeon and Unaware Clefable becoming unkillable with assistance outside very select counterplay which many teams simply can't fit. If passing just Speed later becomes an issue, then that can be discussed / dealt with accordingly, but as of right now it doesn't seem to be an issue for the majority of people.
 
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dEnIsSsS

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I am currently still leaning towards "ban the sets containing BP + speed boosting abilities/items/moves". I'd rather find out something's banned while teambuilding than in the middle of a battle when I'm trying to BP +2 Atk +2 Spe from Scolipede.
I think Zarel is right. Guys, is it really worth preserving AgiliPass? As far as I know it is not a thing in ORAS and BW (I might be wrong, but prove it with high level replays), and a fully dedicated team around a pure speed Scolipass is not even reliable, so I wouldn't mind losing them. It is true that Scolipede can run Baton Pass for momentum (3 attacks + BP or even Sash with hazards and BP), but this is way too situational in my opinion, you never see it happening. Keep in mind that we should focus on simplicity when making clauses to make it easier for new players who are trying to play on the ladder; Now that I'm thinking about it, "BP + speed boost + other boost" sounds a little bit too much for a newbie's head. Maybe we can apply it in ADV and DPP (both generations where Zapdos trully shines, as it is a bit mediocre in BW and ORAS at least in my opinion) and most of the old gen players have a good knowledge of the game and enough battling experience to understand how this clause would work. Old gen ladders are dead as well anyway, seeing as all new players just want to play ORAS.

I still think we should keep the limit to 1 BP user per team in ORAS and maybe even aply it in BW. I have to reinforce one point: speed-less chains can win games. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-55512 In this replay you can see Shake defeating Omfuga without relying on Ninjask for speed boosts because Omfuga had a Haze Politoed, and I can remember uncountless wins on the XY ladder where I won even after Scolipede died (at some point I didn't even have Quiver Dance Smeargle as a speed boost back up passer).

And what about Trap pass in ADV? Nobody seems to care about it, while I still think it has huge potential to win games even without speed boosts (but I still have no knowledge of the metagame so I can't say for sure).

So this is my point of view on how the clauses should be applied through generations.

ADV: ban BP + speed boosts + other boosts, maybe ban Mean Look/Spider Web + BP as well
DPP: ban BP + speed boosts + other boosts
BW: ban the sets containing BP + speed boosting abilities/items/moves, limit to 1 BP user per team
ORAS: ban the sets containing BP + speed boosting abilities/items/moves, limit to 1 BP user per team
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
question for adv/dpp vets: when did baton pass become a problem that merits serious tiering discussion? is it a recent addition to the metagame or has it been a constant frustration since the beginning?

in bw i can pretty confidently state that baton pass was never a problem until post-landorus ban and i think that's because power creep has been on a downward spiral so now we're troubled by things that wouldn't even be worth considering 2 years ago (bp, spikes, reuniclus, scald) due to the relative strength of other stuff and the priority we placed on getting rid of it first.
 
Just a question: have people even established whether BP should be nixed in the first place? Floppy for one made multiple posts against banning it and Triangles only advocated banning DrumPass. So I'm not sure where the ADV BP decision is because it's definitely a lot more debatable (fwiw i wouldn't mind a DrumPass ban since i've seen how ridic it can be but it honestly doesn't seem necessary). So I think that before making
ADV: ban BP + speed boosts + other boosts, maybe ban Mean Look/Spider Web + BP as well
we should actually establish how broken BP REALLY is since it's a lot less problematic than later gens.

Also, I feel that preserving AgiPass is pretty necessary since although it's not a huge part of the metagame it still is a part of it and the speed + bp + other boost should be more than enough to nix bp sufficiently in dpp (so basically I'd agree w/ the rest of deniss's proposal)
 

atomicllamas

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I think Zarel is right. Guys, is it really worth preserving AgiliPass? As far as I know it is not a thing in ORAS and BW (I might be wrong, but prove it with high level replays), and a fully dedicated team around a pure speed Scolipass is not even reliable, so I wouldn't mind losing them. It is true that Scolipede can run Baton Pass for momentum (3 attacks + BP or even Sash with hazards and BP), but this is way too situational in my opinion, you never see it happening. Keep in mind that we should focus on simplicity when making clauses to make it easier for new players who are trying to play on the ladder; Now that I'm thinking about it, "BP + speed boost + other boost" sounds a little bit too much for a newbie's head. Maybe we can apply it in ADV and DPP (both generations where Zapdos trully shines, as it is a bit mediocre in BW and ORAS at least in my opinion) and most of the old gen players have a good knowledge of the game and enough battling experience to understand how this clause would work. Old gen ladders are dead as well anyway, seeing as all new players just want to play ORAS.

I still think we should keep the limit to 1 BP user per team in ORAS and maybe even aply it in BW. I have to reinforce one point: speed-less chains can win games. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-55512 In this replay you can see Shake defeating Omfuga without relying on Ninjask for speed boosts because Omfuga had a Haze Politoed, and I can remember uncountless wins on the XY ladder where I won even after Scolipede died (at some point I didn't even have Quiver Dance Smeargle as a speed boost back up passer).

And what about Trap pass in ADV? Nobody seems to care about it, while I still think it has huge potential to win games even without speed boosts (but I still have no knowledge of the metagame so I can't say for sure).

So this is my point of view on how the clauses should be applied through generations.

ADV: ban BP + speed boosts + other boosts, maybe ban Mean Look/Spider Web + BP as well
DPP: ban BP + speed boosts + other boosts
BW: ban the sets containing BP + speed boosting abilities/items/moves, limit to 1 BP user per team
ORAS: ban the sets containing BP + speed boosting abilities/items/moves, limit to 1 BP user per team
Uhh, why would we ban speed boost passing by itself if its not a problem, and the other slightly more complex ban covers the broken issues without the same collateral damage. Aside from the fact that you state that pure speed passing isn't really that good in ORAS OU (why would we ban something that's not broken?), it doesn't mean its unviable, no one is playing with agili pass right now (why would you when you can just use smash pass, lol) but it doesn't mean that it won't be good, or at least viable, after the other ban takes effect. On top of this speed passing by itself is viable in lower tiers (especially if combusken were unbanned in NU given that the broken set was BP + BU), and while transivity has been broken, it is much easier for there to be just one clause covering all the tiers if it is possible (which is why I've even bothered commenting in a thread that is mostly been about OU at all). Basically I think the reasoning, "let's ban non-broken things cause its easier, and lol, who cares," is pretty terrible logic and something I'm absolutely opposed to, especially given that a slightly more complex ban covers all the broken things, without any collateral damage, and covers all tiers well. If people are concerned that speed passing or defense boost passing are broken (lol), it isn't as if we can't address these issues farther down the line. I don't think compromising the ideology of banning whats broken with as little possible collateral damage should be compromised because its "easier".

For what its worth I agree some limit on BP users per team is probably still necessary given that shake game, but I'm not sure that the answer is still 1 (don't care if the limit is raised or not though).
 

dEnIsSsS

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Uhh, why would we ban speed boost passing by itself if its not a problem, and the other slightly more complex ban covers the broken issues without the same collateral damage. Aside from the fact that you state that pure speed passing isn't really that good in ORAS OU (why would we ban something that's not broken?), it doesn't mean its unviable, no one is playing with agili pass right now (why would you when you can just use smash pass, lol) but it doesn't mean that it won't be good, or at least viable, after the other ban takes effect. On top of this speed passing by itself is viable in lower tiers (especially if combusken were unbanned in NU given that the broken set was BP + BU), and while transivity has been broken, it is much easier for there to be just one clause covering all the tiers if it is possible (which is why I've even bothered commenting in a thread that is mostly been about OU at all). Basically I think the reasoning, "let's ban non-broken things cause its easier, and lol, who cares," is pretty terrible logic and something I'm absolutely opposed to, especially given that a slightly more complex ban covers all the broken things, without any collateral damage, and covers all tiers well. If people are concerned that speed passing or defense boost passing are broken (lol), it isn't as if we can't address these issues farther down the line. I don't think compromising the ideology of banning whats broken with as little possible collateral damage should be compromised because its "easier".

For what its worth I agree some limit on BP users per team is probably still necessary given that shake game, but I'm not sure that the answer is still 1 (don't care if the limit is raised or not though).
I fully agree with everything you said, however, while the "BP + speeds boosts + other boosts" may sound very clear for us, keep in mind there are way too many new players on the ladder as I've said before. Some of them can barely speak english, some of them are too young (I mean literal kids) and some of them might get extremely confused if BP fails at the middle of the match (they will complain to the mods thinking it was a bug/glitch). Clauses should be as simple as possible. That's why I fully support Zarel's last proposal (which was my original proposal at first?).

Lavos, I don't think it's necessary to create a separate thread for BW. I guess then we should make a new thread for each generation? And you basically supported my suggestion in your thread.
 

atomicllamas

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I fully agree with everything you said, however, while the "BP + speeds boosts + other boosts" may sound very clear for us, keep in mind there are way too many new players on the ladder as I've said before. Some of them can barely speak english, some of them are too young (I mean literal kids) and some of them might get extremely confused if BP fails at the middle of the match (they will complain to the mods thinking it was a bug/glitch). Clauses should be as simple as possible. That's why I fully support Zarel's last proposal (which was my original proposal at first?).

Lavos, I don't think it's necessary to create a separate thread for BW. I guess then we should make a new thread for each generation? And you basically supported my suggestion in your thread.
Speed + Other Boosts + Baton Pass can also be banned at find a battle as well (as long as BP is still limited to one user per team, which I've kind of been posting under the assumption it would be, if thats not the case then the other proposal is probably superior). I mean how much harder is it to understand "X is banned because the combination of Baton Pass, a speed boosting item / ability / move, and a item / ability / move that boosts other stats are banned" than "Y is banned because the combination of Baton Pass and a speed boosting item / ability / move are banned". I mean its basically the same thing, and if you don't understand the former, I'm not sure how well someone would understand the latter.
 

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